Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ROBBO on April 22, 2012, 08:43:40 AM
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Reading all the McLeish out posts i got to wondering whether we should all take a reality check. I was in favour of what GH was trying to do, he had a lot of problems to contend with for sure but it was only in the last few games that we managed to claw a respectable mid table finish. We all new then that the team badly needed strengthening but instead of that we sold our best two players (okay Downing was chicken livered but he would be a walk up start in the present side). Most of the creativity disappeared from the team and apart from NZog who cannot be classed as creative no-one of any worth has come in. This isn't a defence of AM, but should we be suprised, considering the players he has to work with, that we find ourselves in danger of relegation. We can critisise AM's defensive boring tactics but what if he believes that is the only way to survive the season and that we just don't have the quality to play any other way? We were a poor side last season and Randy's cutbacks no matter how justified have left us with a team fit for the championship.
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I don't think his squad is the 15th worst in the PL. Stats show that his tactics are wrong.
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Which is exactly why a more progressive managerial selection should have been made after GHou's illness.
If we're going to sell our two most creative players, then at least bring in a manager who can find 'diamonds in the rough' and develop youngsters.
We didn't.
No joined-up, logical thinking by RL et al.
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I tend to agree Robbo
There's no doubt that the product at Villa Park this season has been very poor......its only the incredible brand loyalty that football creates that has made me continually turn up this season knowing that at best I would be watching a dour unimaginative uncreative team struggle to avoid defeat.
Perhaps the point we might be forgetting is that the managers brief all season was not to entertain but to drastically cut the wage bill whilst keeping us in the league - (there's every possibility he might well fail).....and he was given this brief by the chairman.
My point here being that it is the chairman we should really be protesting against......with regard to McCleish I think it has turned out exactly how we expected it to.
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No its no surprise that we faced relegation. I just dont understand how the boards manager search went from
Martinez: Young, promising, attacking minded manager to
McLeish: The opposite.
Honestly believe had the board kept to the Martinez criteria and had approached Lambert, Adkins, Poyet, Rodgers instead we would be midtable at the moment and wouldnt have Alan Hutton playing for us.
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I think many fans are still in denial. They think we are going to stay up - given that we cannot win matches we have little chance. We need to brace ourselves, we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
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No.We are where we are due to Mcleish's negative tactics and failure to pick up wins when we were at full strength Ask any Blues supporter, they will all tell you they should have never gone down with the squad they had.
We are where we are due to Mcleish's cowardice despite losing Young and Downing, we had more than enough to consolidate a top half finish.
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No its no surprise that we faced relegation. I just dont understand how the boards manager search went from
Martinez: Young, promising, attacking minded manager to
McLeish: The opposite.
I think it's because they haven't a clue what they are doing and just panicked when Martinez knocked us back Well not even panicked to be honest I just think Randy couldnt be arsed to keep looking
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I don't agree, Alex has spent about 17.5million on 3 players. 2 out the 3 have been shit and we are suffering because of it.
We never needed Hutton, we needed a midfielder.
McLeish is now using injuries as an excuse even though when we had a fully fit squad he was playing Heskey in midfield and Hutton in midfield.
Yes we need to bring our expectations down, but if McLeish had been Abit more positive in some of our 15 draws we would be a lot better off points wise.
I'd rather lose 10 games 3-2 and win 5 games 3-2 than play defensively and have 15 draws.
He has to be sacked if we have any hope.
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No WE are not in denial....................Lerner is !
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I think many fans are still in denial. They think we are going to stay up - given that we cannot win matches we have little chance. We need to brace ourselves, we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
Why do I get the feeling that you'll be all over these boards screeching 'I told you so!' in the event that we do go down?
Villa belong in the championship do they?
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Stu. Dont have a hissy fit its his opinion and mine we have been sliding towards relegation for weeks. Its in the tital.. 'IN DENIAL'. Its not what we deserve as fans but we are the worst team in form apart from wolves.
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We do not belong in the Championship.
This bloody manager and Grant do.
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The players he has to work with excuse is really getting on my nerves.
You don't have to look too far to see a club that basically sold nearly all of its players and yet the manager has not only got them playing better football but competing as well.
I look at our squad and their are good young players in it but it feels like their being suffocated by anti football. Yes their are a few that are probably not going to be as good as we thought, but I honestly believe that our squad with a decent manager can finish mid table.
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I think somebody should just start a thread called 'ASTON VILLA ARE SHIT!!!'. 90% of the posts on this forum could be lumped in there.
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Stu. Dont have a hissy fit its his opinion and mine we have been sliding towards relegation for weeks. Its in the tital.. 'IN DENIAL'. Its not what we deserve as fans but we are the worst team in form apart from wolves.
But the" In denial " was not referring to whether we were in denial about getting relegated but whether Mcleish had a good enough squad to keep us up The OP can correct me if I'm wrong
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Stu. Dont have a hissy fit its his opinion and mine we have been sliding towards relegation for weeks. Its in the tital.. 'IN DENIAL'. Its not what we deserve as fans but we are the worst team in form apart from wolves.
I'm not the one wishing relegation on the team. I'm not the one saying Villa belong in the Championship either. Who's having the hissy fit? We're six points clear of the relegation zone and the team we have to play on Tuesday night. Lets show our support
And don't patronise me, thanks.
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I think somebody should just start a thread called 'ASTON VILLA ARE SHIT!!!'. 90% of the posts on this forum could be lumped in there.
Yep. And I don't like the feeling of glee that seems to permeate each and every post wishing relegation on the team.
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I think somebody should just start a thread called 'ASTON VILLA ARE SHIT!!!'. 90% of the posts on this forum could be lumped in there.
Yep. And I don't like the feeling of glee that seems to permeate each and every post wishing relegation on the team.
Aston Villa are steeped in history and tradition and one of the greats of English football. Currently we are a crap football team guided by a completely clueless idiot of a manager, no denying that.
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I think somebody should just start a thread called 'ASTON VILLA ARE SHIT!!!'. 90% of the posts on this forum could be lumped in there.
Yep. And I don't like the feeling of glee that seems to permeate each and every post wishing relegation on the team.
Its not just on the forums......where I sit in Trinity block B there are people that just can't wait to start moaning every game...one bloke in particular....every time a pass goes astray or someone makes a genuine mistake he unleashes a torrent of abuse. I turned round and stared at him yesterday and he asked me what I was looking at....I said that I was just checking to see that he was actually a Villa fan.
We have a role to play in supporting the players on the pitch regardless of what we think about the maanger or the chairman
I hope we can actually be the 12th man on Tuesday !!
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Shall I start a new thread. Are we in denial about getting relegated? McLeish has handled every aspect of the squad wrong. From Given on a 5 year contract to Hutton no better than Lichai or Herd at right back. Jenas who never plays more than 15 games a season. Nzogbia has been just plain shit! Add the fact he has managed on the whole to play most of the kids out of position. I think we were in denial that Steve McClaren would have been a worse choice.
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I think the squad as it is now is easily the poorest in a generation. The full backs are sub standard, Albrighton is not a premier league player and neither is N'Zogbia who has no end product. The midfield is as weak as I've ever known. Heskey and Gabby are awful and couldn't buy a goal.
That said, with the players we has pre the injury epidemic were more than capable of being ten points better off. McLeish can only look to his negative agenda both tactically and mentally for why we are where we are.
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Whose wishing relegation on my team? Been down for that many years that relegation wouldnt stop me.
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We do not belong in the Championship.
This bloody manager and Grant do.
That's handy ;)
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What's annoying me at the moment is this notion that most posters want us to do bad and want us to get relegated.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
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Its not just on the forums......where I sit in Trinity block B there are people that just can't wait to start moaning every game...one bloke in particular....every time a pass goes astray or someone makes a genuine mistake he unleashes a torrent of abuse. I turned round and stared at him yesterday and he asked me what I was looking at....I said that I was just checking to see that he was actually a Villa fan.
I sit in that block. About five of them behind me never stop moaning and never give any encouragement. We are going 'come on Villa!' and trying to give them some backing. That lot behind piss me off and I am glad we are moving next year. That said, I thought our crowd were almost Millwall-like at times yesterday, with some real hostility to the opposition and match officials. Long may it continue. When the chips are down, you get to the hardcore support.
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We are not in denial, quite the opposite. I think we know more about the footballing side of things than our suppossed great leaders.
1) We know we have had injuries and we know these have been compounded by overly defensive tactics throughout the season.
2) We know that we didn't want this Manager as many predicted that this would happen.
3) We know Lerner has lost interest and just wants to recoup his investment and get in into a more salable asset for him.
4) We also know that most of us on here have more football knowledge than Randy and Faulkner put together.
5) We also know that this season cannot come to an end soon enough and if there was 42 league games played we'd probably be favourites to go down, as oppossed to just scraping through.
6) We know that in atleast 10 matches this season, we've as good as raised the white flag before the team bus has arrived and then seen our rivals gain points in those same fixtures.
7) We know that our last salable asset, Darren Bent will be gone in the Summer and replaced by a player of lower calibre with the money not being totally re-invested.
8) We know the plan, we just don't like it and if it's not this season, without changes, it'll be next.
I think that most posters on this site are extremely well informed and know exactly the situation.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
Their names should be put in a list for future reference.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I think the board have to come out, show their faces, and answer some difficult questions at seasons end. I'd like to know what the direction of the club is, if they will be backing the manager with money, are they happy with the way things have panned out this season, and if not why do they think it turned out so bad? Finally, why should we buy tickets to games if the football and entertainment is so shit?
That's my reasonable side. My childish, reactionary, angry side wants to grab Lerner/Faulkner by the lapels and scream "WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU THINK YOU WERE DOING APPOINTING THAT SHIT TWAT TO MANAGE THE VILLA?"
But that kind of display wouldn't get us very far.
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Which is exactly why a more progressive managerial selection should have been made after GHou's illness.
If we're going to sell our two most creative players, then at least bring in a manager who can find 'diamonds in the rough' and develop youngsters.
We didn't.
Such as who, Martinez? After he decided to stop at Wigan, who else fitting the above could have been brought in?
No joined-up, logical thinking by RL et al.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
Their names should be put in a list for future reference.
It's no worse than pretending that McLeish is doing well to maintain some of internet persona.
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A low media profile is great if you're Roman Abramovich. But if you're not, and things aren't going well, it prevents any reasoned public dialogue about the club's shortcomings. It turns into endless unfocussed rage.
I really, really hope somebody at the club does a proper `mea culpa' at the end of the season. SGT Mk II tried it, as I recall, and got booed off the pitch. But at least he tried, and he's never shied away from discussing problems in plain terms.
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I probably don't have the as much faith in many of our players ability as many on here seem to have, we have a couple of kids that may turn out to be the real deal but are still green, the rest are journeymen, this isn't to say they don't put the effort in (Couldn't really have asked for more yesterday) but they are very limited. A more experienced board or people with a knowledge of the game should have pointed out to Randy the perils of relegation.
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I really, really hope somebody at the club does a proper `mea culpa' at the end of the season. SGT Mk II tried it, as I recall, and got booed off the pitch. But at least he tried, and he's never shied away from discussing problems in plain terms.
I was there that night, it is the only time I've felt ashamed to be a Villa fan. Booing Sir Graham, for fucks sake. At least he had the stones to come out onto the pitch with a mic to speak to the fans, he respected us, and that's what he got for his trouble.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
Well that's nuts because it's horrible.
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I also don't believe many people are taking pleasure in the situation we're in. Personally speaking I don't particularly enjoy us scrapping it out at the bottom of the league.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
Well that's nuts because it's horrible.
I imagine that the same people get off having a cheesegrater scraped across their bellend.
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There its an air of that, people seemingly enjoying our plight.
Their names should be put in a list for future reference.
It's no worse than pretending that McLeish is doing well to maintain some of internet persona.
Agreed.
There's only one Chris Smith.
The rest are pale imitations.
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We do not belong in the Championship.
This bloody manager and Grant do.
this
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
i thought we were worse when we played the more experienced players,
Hutton, Heskey, Gabby, Dunne, Warnock, and even Collins for long periods of the season, have all been all very average and certainly no better than then younger palyers that have had to be brought in
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
i thought we were worse when we played the more experienced players,
Hutton, Heskey, Gabby, Dunne, Warnock, and even Collins for long periods of the season, have all been all very average and certainly no better than then younger palyers that have had to be brought in
I disagree. We were bad enough earlier in the season with the experienced players in the team but at least we were picking up the odd result. The latter part of the season when it's been mainly kids has been nothing short of an abomination.
We ridiculously overrate our kids, and Lerner fell for it hook line and sinker.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals
What goals? Last time I looked we were the second lowest scorers after the pitiful Wolves
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
Dragging us down? Saving us more like.Why don't you look at who has been scoring our goals
What goals? Last time I looked we were the second lowest scorers after the pitiful Wolves
Since the injury crisis and the kids have been drafted in.Have a look who has been scoring the goals and think about where we would have been if Weimann hadn't scrambled in that last minute winner against Fulham and against Stoke.Herd put us in front at L'pool and Lichaj dragged us back into the game against Chelsea.To say that the kids are dragging us down isn't really fair.
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What an odd argument, lets blame the 19-22 year olds who are working their arses off to save our season after watching 25games of the experienced players putting us in a position where every game is high pressure.
Our kids are very good, they've been consistently good at all levels up until the first team against young players from other teams, many of whom are worse but are now involved in their first team and are doing ok. What we need to question is the ability of the senior players to provide guidance and the ability of the coaching/management to transition players into the first team.
Lets use Albrighton as an example. We know there's raw talent there, he's had half a season of being electric, when played as a right winger and asked to get outside his man and whip it across. Since then he's been moved to play deeper and on the other side of the pitch and now the internet is full of Villa fans calling for him to be dropped and saying he's not good enough for the premier league.
Another example, Ciaran Clark is regarded as a very very good young central defender but we've only seen him in midfield, despite times where Dunne and Collins were so woefully out of form that we may as well have given the opposition a 2 goal start.
As Monty has said on one of the threads recently McLeish has a habit of associating 'experienced' with 'good' so when he has had the choice between youth and experience he has almost every time gone for experience, regardless of form or ability.
There is enough talent through the youth and reserves that we can build the squad around it. Add 4-5 experienced players with the right attitude into the mix and keep hold of the senior players who are willing to knuckle down, whilst getting rid of the worst of the journeymen and we could easily 'do a newcastle'.
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Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.
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Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.
It's a damning indictment when you fail to beat the gregnash crapness spread.
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Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.
It's a damning indictment when you fail to beat the gregnash crapness spread.
heh. Well he's had injuries (i know, i know) but even so i'd say 4 points better off at this stage would have been there abouts. His main fault is he's bought some lousy replacements in Hutton and 'the Wigan player' and when your skint like us you can't afford to write off 15m in bad signings.
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What an odd argument, lets blame the 19-22 year olds who are working their arses off to save our season after watching 25games of the experienced players putting us in a position where every game is high pressure.
Our kids are very good, they've been consistently good at all levels up until the first team against young players from other teams, many of whom are worse but are now involved in their first team and are doing ok. What we need to question is the ability of the senior players to provide guidance and the ability of the coaching/management to transition players into the first team.
Lets use Albrighton as an example. We know there's raw talent there, he's had half a season of being electric, when played as a right winger and asked to get outside his man and whip it across. Since then he's been moved to play deeper and on the other side of the pitch and now the internet is full of Villa fans calling for him to be dropped and saying he's not good enough for the premier league.
Another example, Ciaran Clark is regarded as a very very good young central defender but we've only seen him in midfield, despite times where Dunne and Collins were so woefully out of form that we may as well have given the opposition a 2 goal start.
As Monty has said on one of the threads recently McLeish has a habit of associating 'experienced' with 'good' so when he has had the choice between youth and experience he has almost every time gone for experience, regardless of form or ability.
There is enough talent through the youth and reserves that we can build the squad around it. Add 4-5 experienced players with the right attitude into the mix and keep hold of the senior players who are willing to knuckle down, whilst getting rid of the worst of the journeymen and we could easily 'do a newcastle'.
I agree with this - however it has the caviat of WHO will bring in the experienced players??
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Its a good point Robbo. I see us as worse than last season in terms of ability and strength player-wise, so roughly lower than 9th. Sunderland are 10th on 44 point which to me is probably better than we are. I'd say about 11th/12th is where we should be. So yes Mcleish has done crap but its only about 7 points crapper than what i expected/suspected.
I think it was clear that the end of last season we were an improving side. The manager knew that he would be losing Ashley Young and that money had already been spent on Bent. He knew that he would have around £17m to replace A Young, Downing, Walker, Friedel and L Young.
It was clear to me (and should have been blindingly obvious to the manager), that the basis of the squad would be young talent, to which he had to add experienced pros in key positions. Other than goalkeeper, the key area that needed experienced players was central midfield.
Unlike the year before when the team was on the slide (which I am sure MON recognised), this season was the opposite so how the season has gone is a sad reflection of the ability of the manager, in my opinion.
We are left at the end of the season with some good young players and a couple of good experienced players but in desperate need of the right type players to be brought in to fill key positions so that they not only perform but also help in the development of the young players. McLeish did not see this last preseason so what are the chances this coming preseason. On top of this, will the pussy cat change his spots regarding method of play, I don't think so.
We are not top six but we are certainly not bottom six, with the players we have. My worry is that if he stays, he will try and wheel and deal in transfer market with the net effect of more players but with less quality which will continue the downward spiral.
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I don't think anybody's in denial. Let's look at things for a second.
Last season we underachieved for most of the season, yet still managed ninth. On paper, last year should have been another top six finish. Ok, losing Milner was a huge blow, but losing MON (and being knocked out of Europe) should have meant more squad rotation and the chance to overcome the usual end of season dip in form that used to cost us a top four finish. Now as we know, Houllier was unlucky with injuries but he still under performed with the resources at his disposal. As far as I'm concerned, the 2010-11 squad (particularly after the addition of Darren Bent in January) was a top six side that underachieved and was badly managed. That's essentially the way things stood the day Houllier left. There was problems, not least the need to sell players to balance the books, but we were poised to remain mid-table as we rebuilt under the right manager.
Under McLeish, the boards decision to sell key players without adequately replacing them was a major blow to the squad. In my estimation, it not however leave us facing a relegation battle. N'Zogbia, in my view, wasn't really an adequate replacement for either Downing or Young, but was still a decent Premier League Player. I thought Shay Given might actually improve us at the back. With the youngsters having had a season under their belt, and with Ireland and N'Zogbia feeding Bent for a whole season, I felt our squad was good enough to finish anywhere between 8th-12th. Then we'd be nicely positioned to strengthen the following summer and make an assault on the top six again.
However, the negative tactics employed by the manager have choked us. We didn't pick up enough points when it mattered. Surrender and playing for a draw became the order of the day. We all knew bent was isolated up front in the first few months. There was no attacking plan. Spurs away, United at home and Man City at home were pathetic displays as was Swansea away to a lesser extent. McLeish, like his predecessor has not maximised his resources. That is a (very) comfortable mid-table squad that has ended up fighting relegation with four games to go.
That is grounds for dismissal as far as I'm concerned.
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
I don't think thery're incredibly average, I think there are some good players in there. It's just that it's too much to have 7/8 thrown in at the same time against experienced PL players and expect them to be able to cope - Fergies 1996 world beaters apart it just doesn't happen like that.
Agreed. Just because they're not going to win the league on their own does not, by any means, make them 'incredibly average'.
Who said they were expected to win the league? Not me. The kids are dragging us down. That's what happens when you sell your best players and pack your first team with the youth team.
Its not the kids who have let us down but the more experienced pros. Edit Together with the owner, the board the manager and PG.
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Agreed with IrishVillain.
I think it's the full back area that's killed us this season.
Young was solid and Walker was dynamic and dangerous going forward (if a bit naive defensively at times). Warnock, despite showing strength of character lately, has been really poor for a lot of the season. Hutton, distinctly average and a liability at diving in at tricky wingers. When you consider full-backs are much more important in the modern game than previously it's a major handicap when they are not up to scratch.
Young and to a lesser extent Downing have been big losses but it was McLeish's job, after blowing most of the transfer kitty on N'Zog, to get him playing like he did at Wigan last season on a consistent basis. He's failed miserably on that count. We have also in effect gained a quality attacking player this season in Ireland who, like Warnock was out in the cold previously and he's been the one touch of quality in our midfield all season.
Bringing in sick-note Jenas for Makoun is another deal that has bitten him on the arse.
Injuries have cost us the last couple of months but even prior to that McLeish was not getting the best out of the players.
I look at Newcastle who also sold their best 3 players over the past two years and look where they are now. They've over-achieved hugely, we've done the complete opposite. Top half, parity with last season, in McLeish's words in August ''to emulate last season'' was the reasonable aim and expectation this season and we have failed miserably.
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Its not just on the forums......where I sit in Trinity block B there are people that just can't wait to start moaning every game...one bloke in particular....every time a pass goes astray or someone makes a genuine mistake he unleashes a torrent of abuse. I turned round and stared at him yesterday and he asked me what I was looking at....I said that I was just checking to see that he was actually a Villa fan.
I sit in that block. About five of them behind me never stop moaning and never give any encouragement. We are going 'come on Villa!' and trying to give them some backing. That lot behind piss me off and I am glad we are moving next year. That said, I thought our crowd were almost Millwall-like at times yesterday, with some real hostility to the opposition and match officials. Long may it continue. When the chips are down, you get to the hardcore support.
That is the right attitude, we sat in the Doug Ellis Lower towards the Holte and I was impressed with the support for the team from the Holte End. It's all we can do now SUPPORT THE TEAM
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Lerner was hoodwinked into believing our kids were akin to Man Utd's of the early to mid '90's, when in reality they're incredibly average. Selling your best players and replacing them with the youth team has been utterly disastrous. His choice of managers have been even worse. Lerner has the Midas touch in reverse.
Agree with this. I think the youngsters have been talked up by people at the club and Lerner believed the hype. Hopefully he has seen this season that relying on those players is going to end up in relegation and acts accordingly in the summer. I genuinely believed in the summer that we should finish mid table and maybe in the top ten if we had a good season. If (and it is a big if) we had been able to turn the draws at home against Everton, Stoke, QPR and Sunderland into wins then we would have been in that position.
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Four pages and no Egyptian river pun. I'm disappointed.
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Damn it Dave i was just getting to that! ;D
This situation has been coming ever since the mystifying appoinment of McLeech was announced. The evidence was there in the first weeks of the season when with a fully fit squad we failed to beat so many of the sides that we normally would, and it's been getting steadily worse. We are now five points away from the trap door. Denial? I'm not even remotely surprised. As for the board? I doubt denial would be it for them either, they probably still can't even see anything wrong, and that's the most worrying factor!
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The way I see it is that it was always going to be a tough season and based on the standard of AM's signing (Given apart), it was unrealistic to expect a top seven push, however like someone said we are not the fifth worse squad in the league and based on the players he had we should at the very least be aiming for a comtreable midtable finish.
So I don't think we are in denial, don't think anybody thought we challenge for Europe, but like wise no one expect things to get this bad.
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Four pages and no Egyptian river pun. I'm disappointed.
To keep you happy, Dave : NILE is Greek for 'longest'.
And this is the LONGEST season I can remember !
McLeech OUT ! UTV. Villa 'til I Die...
(which may be of a coranary under this twat)
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Four pages and no Egyptian river pun. I'm disappointed.
To keep you happy, Dave : NILE is Greek for 'longest'.
And this is the LONGEST season I can remember !
McLeech OUT ! UTV. Villa 'til I Die...
(which may be of a coranary under this twat)
Thank you. Now you're wanted on the 1975 music thread.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways, which is why I was prepared to give him a chance. But our squad is still so much better than all of the other sides in and around us that we still shouldn't have been in this mess.
I don't see Wigan with a £24m centre forward, or Bolton with 3 central midfielders who cost £22m even after selling so many other midfielders.
It's obvious that the creativity has been sucked out of the side. And we've placed too much confidence in the likes of albrighton and bannan I replace that, whilst CNZ is more of a selfish player than a provider of numerous chances.
My concern is that even I we do seek to strengthen in those positions - and we definitely need to - mcleish's record is pretty suspect. He tried to make blues more creative with the likes of hleb, Benitez, etc. it just didn't work.
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Problem with CNZ is that his final ball or shot just isn't good enough. Yesterday he actually was one of best players I thought, and made some exciting runs, but more often than not they came to nothing. I expected much more from him this season, but he just has not made the step up.
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Didn't understand why there was such a clamour for CNZ in the first place and especially with what we paid for him. For a guy who we keep getting told kept Wigan up on his own last season, they don't seem to be missing him to be fair. as i said at the time, if he's that good why didn't Manu save some money and buy him instead of Young?
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He's not as good as Young. We couldn't afford someone who is and they wouldn't want to come anyway.
I thought he was the best we could get this time last year, but so far I've been wrong.
I don't think he's particularly suited to the way we're playing though
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Because Young is a better player, but that doesn't mean Charles couldn't have done a job for us, of course if Ashley had not left we never would have bought him anyway.
At the time I did see the signing as a good one because it looked as if he had mutured since his Newcastle days and did have a very good season at Wigan, but even if he had a cracking season with us, it still would not have been enough bareing in mind we lost Milner, Young and Downling in short order.
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We also gained Ireland this season.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
We're on a roll now.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
We're on a roll now.
He's taken a lot of (French) stick though...
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** post removed ** far too corny and not very funny :-[
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways, which is why I was prepared to give him a chance. But our squad is still so much better than all of the other sides in and around us that we still shouldn't have been in this mess.
I don't see Wigan with a £24m centre forward, or Bolton with 3 central midfielders who cost £22m even after selling so many other midfielders.
It's obvious that the creativity has been sucked out of the side. And we've placed too much confidence in the likes of albrighton and bannan I replace that, whilst CNZ is more of a selfish player than a provider of numerous chances.
My concern is that even I we do seek to strengthen in those positions - and we definitely need to - mcleish's record is pretty suspect. He tried to make blues more creative with the likes of hleb, Benitez, etc. it just didn't work.
McL gambled that bringing in Given, Jenas, Hutton and CNZ would give him the experience through the side - along with Petrov, Dunne, Warnock and Collins.
The reality is that poor fortune (with injuries) and poor form from key players has lead to the position we now find ourselves in.
However, he has not done enough to get the best out the materials at his disposal and I point particularly to playing players out of position and not dealing with our appalling set-piece defending. These are things he could and should have corrected.
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Before the first match of the season, I predicted that we would finish 14th. I assumed that there would be a bottom six (including Norwich and Swansea, but without us and Bolton) that would fight against relegation, and that we would be just good enough to avoid that. I thought we had a lower mid-table manager working with a lower mid-table squad.
In attack, McLeish has delievered about as expected. But I thought he would improve our defence, but it has been just about as leaky as last season. I think there lies the main reason for the difference between where we'll end up and what I predicted.
If we keep McLeish and give him a dominant midfielder and a couple of competent defenders to work with, I think he will produce more 1-0 wins and could bring us to a mid-table finish. But the football will be similar to this season; we'll just be less of a push-over and produce fewer blunders in defence.
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I think many fans are still in denial. They think we are going to stay up - given that we cannot win matches we have little chance. We need to brace ourselves, we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
What a load of bollox. Us a Championship team? fuck right off. That is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen on here, and I have posted some shit myself.
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I think many fans are still in denial. They think we are going to stay up - given that we cannot win matches we have little chance. We need to brace ourselves, we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
What a load of bollox. Us a Championship team? fuck right off. That is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen on here, and I have posted some shit myself.
I agree. I have also posted shit on here but that is an absolutely disgraceful statement ! If we go down then I will be the first to say we are heading for the Championship where we deserve to be. But where we belong ? NEVER !
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I, too, have posted shit. Sealing the envelope was a nightmare
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I, too, have posted shit. Sealing the envelope was a nightmare
Use a plastic one and vacuum seal it, that's what I do :)
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
We're on a roll now.
He's taken a lot of (French) stick though...
It's time to hand over the Baton...
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I, too, have posted shit. Sealing the envelope was a nightmare
You have to mark the envelope `Private and Confidential - For the personal attention of The Prime Minister`, otherwise it just finishes up with some poorly paid lowly civil servant. Anyway, thats what I used to do in the 1980's.
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we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
I'm sorry but that statement is like having sex with a fat girl in an elevator.
Wrong on so many levels.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
We're on a roll now.
He's taken a lot of (French) stick though...
It's time to hand over the Baton...
I'll toast that.
this bread isn't funny anymore.
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He's been dealt a bun hand in many ways
He has had plenty of dough to play with.
He's certainly the sort of manager who gives fans a cob on.
We're on a roll now.
He's taken a lot of (French) stick though...
It's time to hand over the Baton...
I'll toast that.
this bread isn't funny anymore.
We've just had a bad batch.
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Thought they played better than usual, yeasterday.
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I think we might go on a roll
Just checked back Doh !
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We knead the points so no loafin around on tuesday!
And, go Zoggy....
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we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
I'm sorry but that statement is like having sex with a fat girl in an elevator.
Wrong on so many levels.
Doesn't he just mean that our performances have merited relegation? I tend to agree to be honest, or not far off.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
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How many 'we're going down' threads can we have?
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we're heading for the Championship where we belong.
I'm sorry but that statement is like having sex with a fat girl in an elevator.
Wrong on so many levels.
Doesn't he just mean that our performances have merited relegation? I tend to agree to be honest, or not far off.
you know what he probably does, though I'm seriously fed up of hearing the idea on here that Aston Villa Football Club is not a club worthy of the top flight of English Football.
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13 seasons out of the top division in our entire history and some fans think we 'belong' in the Championship. What a load of bollocks.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
Yeah that's if you look at simply. But I you look into the main reasons we are even flirting with relegation we don't deserve to stay up.
I don't know how to really write what I mean, but hopefully the last couple of years has been a real learning curve for Lerner and Paul Faulkner so that we don't end up like Wolves.
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Thought they played better than usual, yeasterday.
Thought they earned their crust.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
Yeah that's if you look at simply. But I you look into the main reasons we are even flirting with relegation we don't deserve to stay up.
I don't know how to really write what I mean, but hopefully the last couple of years has been a real learning curve for Lerner and Paul Faulkner so that we don't end up like Wolves.
How do you work that out? Do the Glazers deserve to win the league? Do City? You deserve to finish where you finish and I really don't understand this self-loathing streak we're starting to show.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
Yeah that's if you look at simply. But I you look into the main reasons we are even flirting with relegation we don't deserve to stay up.
I don't know how to really write what I mean, but hopefully the last couple of years has been a real learning curve for Lerner and Paul Faulkner so that we don't end up like Wolves.
How do you work that out? Do the Glazers deserve to win the league? Do City? You deserve to finish where you finish and I really don't understand this self-loathing streak we're starting to show.
It's not self loathing, it's just the fear that Randy cannot see what he has done and we are going to persist with this manager.
We are shit, the manager is shit, the players have not performed but if anybody critisises Villa on here they get accused of wanting us to do bad or self loathing.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
Whoever it was invented this system of all the teams playing each other a couple of times and having a points table to measure the best and worst was certainly onto something. If it doesn't work in our favour at the end, we more than any other set of supporters in the land should be prepared to accept our fate.
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Tell me where that happens? On the contrary, I'd say there's an element of our support who believes that they have some right to talk the club down at every opportunity without any argument. Looking at some of the 'woe is us' stuff that's been on here lately, self-loathing is exactly the term to use. You finish in the relegation places, you deserve to get relegated. If you finish out of them you don't. I fail to see how anything else can be the case.
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Just a question,
Don't you think the way the board have acted over the last 2 seasons, the managers approach and the performance all equate to a team that deserves to be relegated if we do get relegated?
If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to go down, otherwise we don't.
Yeah that's if you look at simply. But I you look into the main reasons we are even flirting with relegation we don't deserve to stay up.
I don't know how to really write what I mean, but hopefully the last couple of years has been a real learning curve for Lerner and Paul Faulkner so that we don't end up like Wolves.
How do you work that out? Do the Glazers deserve to win the league? Do City? You deserve to finish where you finish and I really don't understand this self-loathing streak we're starting to show.
It's not self loathing, it's just the fear that Randy cannot see what he has done and we are going to persist with this manager.
We are shit, the manager is shit, the players have not performed but if anybody critisises Villa on here they get accused of wanting us to do bad or self loathing.
So if I understand this, you think that we deserve to go down even if we are not included in the bottom three, because of the performance of the owner, manager, players and club as a whole?
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Bring it slightly more back onto topic. I want to take a look at the squad McLeish inherited and the money that was given to him before deciding whether it's our squad that was the problem or McLeish that was the problem.
So here is our squad from the day McLeish arrived (I've taken Young and Downing out as they were already off):
1. Guzan (?)
2. Young (Herd)
4. Dunne (Cuellar)
5. Collins (Clark/Baker)
3. Warnock (Lichaj)
6. Makoun (Delph)
8. Petrov (Gardner)
7. Ireland (Bannan)
10. Albrighton (?)
11. Gabby (?)
9. Bent (Heskey/Weimann)
1-11 suggesting the first team that we had when McLeish arrived. As you can see, we had a pretty good squad considering we had about 15 players leave. When McLeish arrived, Downing and Young were off. That meant we had £20m to rebuilt the squad.
What he should have done:
Goalkeeper: Looking at that squad, it's clear that we need a first-choice goalkeeper. At the time we were linked with Al Habsi and Given for about £3m each. Either one would do.
Defence: In terms of the defence, we had a pretty solid back four (Warnock aside). We have a reserve that could play in each position and so (unless we were replacing Warnock) there was no real need to change the defence.
Central Midfield: With the loss of Reo-Coker, but the reappearance of Ireland, it's pretty clear that we still need 1 new midfielder. We're not sure if Ireland is up to the task yet. We have some good reserves that can come in but three experienced midfielders aren't really enough.
Wingers: We lost two heavily important wingers. We need 2 more to replace them. Albrighton is a bit out of sorts following Houlliers reign and Gabby isn't exactly a winger.
Strikers: We have Bent, Gabby, Heskey and Weimann. No changes necessary.
What he actually did:
Goalkeeper: Picked up Given for £3m. Obvious choice.
Defence: Sell an experienced and in form Luke Young for £500k. Replace him with Alan Hutton for £3,500,000.
Midfield: Loan off Makoun ,one of only three recognized central midfielders. Replace him with Spurs reject and constant cripple Jenas.
Wingers: Sign just one very temperamental and disillusioned winger for £10m.
Strikers: No change.
Therefore what happened to our pretty solid looking first team? Hutton turns out to be the worst right-back in the league, never gets dropped. Jenas is out for the entire season after playing about 8 minutes. Only two experienced midfielders remain, youngsters Herd/Clark get drafted in. Makoun leaving means that there is no link between defence and midfield. Hoofball ensues. Albrighton and N'Zogbia aren't exactly doing well. They're dreadful in fact. Alby is out of sorts and N'Zogbia doesn't know how to pass. Gabby gets drafted in at winger but can't really play there. Bent gets no supply as the wingers around him can't pass, nevermind cross it to him.
We get some injuries. Unfortunately we have no replacement wingers because McLeish put all his eggs in the "N'Zogbia and Alby staying fit and in form forever and ever" basket. Bannan gets drafted in on the wing. We only had two midfielders so when Petrov got his illness, there was only Ireland left. More youngsters drafted in. Hutton and Warnock turn out to be so dreadful, they end up getting dropped. More youngsters drafted in. Dunne, Clark and Cuellar get injured so Baker gets drafted in. Bent out for the season, Gabby stuck on the wing, Weimann gets drafted in.
So looking back, I would say it's completely McLeishs fault we are in this position. We had a decent squad, we had £20m to plug the holes with a couple of wingers, a central midfielder and a goalkeeper. Instead we ended up with one out-of-sorts winger, minus one central midfielder and a far worse right-back than what we had before. Well done McLeish.
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The basic principles he laid down will tell us exactly whether we deserve to stay up or down.
(http://www.alligatorstorage.co.uk/sources/blog/posts/WILLIAM_MACGREGOR_-_Football_League_Founder.jpg)
Brilliantly simple idea. Settles all arguments for me who deserves to go up and down..
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Bring it slightly more back onto topic. I want to take a look at the squad McLeish inherited and the money that was given to him before deciding whether it's our squad that was the problem or McLeish that was the problem.
So here is our squad from the day McLeish arrived (I've taken Young and Downing out as they were already off):
1. Guzan (?)
2. Young (Herd)
4. Dunne (Cuellar)
5. Collins (Clark/Baker)
3. Warnock (Lichaj)
6. Makoun (Delph)
8. Petrov (Gardner)
7. Ireland (Bannan)
10. Albrighton (?)
11. Gabby (?)
9. Bent (Heskey/Weimann)
1-11 suggesting the first team that we had when McLeish arrived. As you can see, we had a pretty good squad considering we had about 15 players leave. When McLeish arrived, Downing and Young were off. That meant we had £20m to rebuilt the squad.
I'm not sure i'd call that a pretty solid squad. Mainly kids as reserves or no-one? The defence is pretty ropey bar Young, and Ireland and Makoun had hardly established places in the team before Mcleish arrived
What he should have done:
Goalkeeper: Looking at that squad, it's clear that we need a first-choice goalkeeper. At the time we were linked with Al Habsi and Given for about £3m each. Either one would do.
Defence: In terms of the defence, we had a pretty solid back four (Warnock aside). We have a reserve that could play in each position and so (unless we were replacing Warnock) there was no real need to change the defence.
Central Midfield: With the loss of Reo-Coker, but the reappearance of Ireland, it's pretty clear that we still need 1 new midfielder. We're not sure if Ireland is up to the task yet. We have some good reserves that can come in but three experienced midfielders aren't really enough.
Wingers: We lost two heavily important wingers. We need 2 more to replace them. Albrighton is a bit out of sorts following Houlliers reign and Gabby isn't exactly a winger.
Strikers: We have Bent, Gabby, Heskey and Weimann. No changes necessary.
What he actually did:
Goalkeeper: Picked up Given for £3m. Obvious choice.
Defence: Sell an experienced and in form Luke Young for £500k. Replace him with Alan Hutton for £3,500,000.
Think Young wanted to go, the club certainly wanted him gone. Hutton was a mistake but i'm not sure you can put Young leaving down to the manager
Midfield: Loan off Makoun ,one of only three recognized central midfielders. Replace him with Spurs reject and constant cripple Jenas.
i wanted Makoun to stay but he certainly hadn't established himself in midfield. I suspect it was more about lowering the wage bill so he could bring players in than actully wanting him out the door. I.e. someone actully wanted him. Jenas well thats just bad luck. I didn't rate him before he came here but he never got the chance to prove me wrong. Keane did.
Wingers: Sign just one very temperamental and disillusioned winger for £10m.
agreed, but then nearly everyone wanted him here. I don't remember a groundswell of people backing me up when i said he was piss poor
Strikers: No change.
Therefore what happened to our pretty solid looking first team? Hutton turns out to be the worst right-back in the league, never gets dropped. Jenas is out for the entire season after playing about 8 minutes. Only two experienced midfielders remain, youngsters Herd/Clark get drafted in. Makoun leaving means that there is no link between defence and midfield. Hoofball ensues. Albrighton and N'Zogbia aren't exactly doing well. They're dreadful in fact. Alby is out of sorts and N'Zogbia doesn't know how to pass. Gabby gets drafted in at winger but can't really play there. Bent gets no supply as the wingers around him can't pass, nevermind cross it to him.
We get some injuries. Unfortunately we have no replacement wingers because McLeish put all his eggs in the "N'Zogbia and Alby staying fit and in form forever and ever" basket. Bannan gets drafted in on the wing. We only had two midfielders so when Petrov got his illness, there was only Ireland left. More youngsters drafted in. Hutton and Warnock turn out to be so dreadful, they end up getting dropped. More youngsters drafted in. Dunne, Clark and Cuellar get injured so Baker gets drafted in. Bent out for the season, Gabby stuck on the wing, Weimann gets drafted in.
So looking back, I would say it's completely McLeishs fault we are in this position. We had a decent squad, we had £20m to plug the holes with a couple of wingers, a central midfielder and a goalkeeper. Instead we ended up with one out-of-sorts winger, minus one central midfielder and a far worse right-back than what we had before. Well done McLeish.
I take you're point about some of his signings being bad but even if you do think we had a pretty good first team in the summer (and its down to the bare bones IMO), through the clubs spending policies (1 in - 3 out) and injuries, 2 of them were let go and 3 of them are missing long term. He could have spent what little money he had better but the 15m or so he had for Hutton and N'Zogbia was never gonna stretch to include better options than them AND the 3 or 4 players we needed just to cover us for injuries.
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Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.
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Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.
Nzogbia is a misfit, he showed at Wigan that he had the odd decent game, he has not produced regularly since his early period at Newcastle. MOTD syndrome
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If we are in denial, then Lerner and Faulkner are equally in denial... we could see this season was going to tough when the protesters came out in the days before AM was hired but they just ignored this.
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How many players do we have in the squad that would be looked on as quality? If you say we have a better squad than others around us then, apart from Wolves i would say thats wrong. This is part of the in denial believing Villa players to be better than those of clubs around us. All of our back line have been have been rubbished all season by posters, the midfield has been woefull, not a standout player there in fact we are really missing Petrov even though his legs would only carry him for half a game, then the forward line, the most promising thing we have going there is a young kid who looks as if he could be really good given time. So where are these players that make our team better then the opposition? i can see all of them as a chance to win games as QPR did against Spurs but the only chance we have is against Bolton.
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Ok life is black and white.
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Denial? yes, i think we are. It pains me to admit it. but you can't polish a turd.
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We, along with about 10 other teams are painfully average. A good year would see us 7th or 8th, a bad one flirting with relegation. To lift up from that group you need to spend a lot of money.
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And here it is. The thread the club have been hoping for all season.
Yes, we are in denial. We're lucky to still be in the Premier League, if we stay up, we've exceeded all realistic expectations and McLeish has pulled off a minor miracle. We should be grateful that we can even compete with the teams in the lower half of the league.
Mission accomplished.
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Reading all the McLeish out posts i got to wondering whether we should all take a reality check. I was in favour of what GH was trying to do, he had a lot of problems to contend with for sure but it was only in the last few games that we managed to claw a respectable mid table finish. We all new then that the team badly needed strengthening but instead of that we sold our best two players (okay Downing was chicken livered but he would be a walk up start in the present side). Most of the creativity disappeared from the team and apart from NZog who cannot be classed as creative no-one of any worth has come in. This isn't a defence of AM, but should we be suprised, considering the players he has to work with, that we find ourselves in danger of relegation. We can critisise AM's defensive boring tactics but what if he believes that is the only way to survive the season and that we just don't have the quality to play any other way? We were a poor side last season and Randy's cutbacks no matter how justified have left us with a team fit for the championship.
Haven't read the whole thread, so I'll just address the OP.
For the 2nd half of last season, basically post Bent, we had top 6 form, which balanced with our poor first half to 9th. We lost a lot of creativity in Ash and Downing, plus Walker. We needed Ireland and Albrighton to step up, but only one has, and N'Zogbia has not been influential enough. He's also had to contend with Bent missing a chunk of the season and his main midfield reinforcement, Jenas, also being out. Where he's failed for me is in getting the defence sorted (still had the raw materials of MON's last season where we were very tight) and to get the best from the remaining creative playes in the form of Marc, Gabby & Charlie.
Had he done those two things we'd be around 9th again, IMO.
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Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.
Nzogbia is a misfit, he showed at Wigan that he had the odd decent game, he has not produced regularly since his early period at Newcastle. MOTD syndrome
Exacly right Hawkeye. Even a Wigan he only really showed glimpses of his talent. He put together a bit of a run at the end of the season, scored a few goals and that was enough for Dave Whelan to royally screw us, which let's face it, he seems to enjoy.
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So what we basically have is the manager failing to get the best out of the key players who were already at the club when he arrived, and also his main summer signing (though Hutton hasn't looked great and Jenas didn't work out).
What stands out for me, in terms of the squad, is the problems we've had in midfield, and I think the manager made some poor choices there. It's been an area of concern all season, IMO.
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How much revenue has the McLeish appointment cost us in terms of league position ?
If we finish 15th, what is the difference in 'prize money' between that position and say 10th (for example) where this squad should realistically expect to have finished ?
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Have we been in denial ?
Here is what we were saying/predicting in August.
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=44383.0
The answer is YES...the majority of us got it massively and embarassingly wrong.
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How much revenue has the McLeish appointment cost us in terms of league position ?
If we finish 15th, what is the difference in 'prize money' between that position and say 10th (for example) where this squad should realistically expect to have finished ?
I think it's pushing £1m a place these days, so probably about £40m-ish.
However, it's hard to really quantify it as A N Other manager may have done better, but demanded more money from Lerner. Even a £3m player on a relatively modest £20k a week would have swallowed up that extra income.
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Have we been in denial ?
Here is what we were saying/predicting in August.
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=44383.0
The answer is YES...the majority of us got it massively and embarassingly wrong.
thats because we were all willing to give the new manager a chance
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Have we been in denial ?
Here is what we were saying/predicting in August.
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=44383.0
The answer is YES...the majority of us got it massively and embarassingly wrong.
I said 14th and I was being very pessimistic at the time
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I found mine and I went for 8th. Earlier in this thread I said we should have been aiming for around 9th. At least I'm consistent, even if totally wrong!
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Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.
Nzogbia is a misfit, he showed at Wigan that he had the odd decent game, he has not produced regularly since his early period at Newcastle. MOTD syndrome
Exacly right Hawkeye. Even a Wigan he only really showed glimpses of his talent. He put together a bit of a run at the end of the season, scored a few goals and that was enough for Dave Whelan to royally screw us, which let's face it, he seems to enjoy.
It seems the Wigan fans must have been laughing inside their sleeves as well, then, as I don't remember any one of them mentioning the weaknesses listed here. All the reports I saw said we were getting a good player who would prove to be better than Downing was for us.
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I think what has dissapointed me most about N'Zogbia is his unwillingness to put in a cross. He practically always has to cut in.
EDIT: Though I suppose that might be down to the fact that he's playing on the right when he's left footed.
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I think what has dissapointed me most about N'Zogbia is his unwillingness to put in a cross. He practically always has to cut in.
I always thought the same with Mark Walters. Is it because a burst on the outside is more likely to result in a solid chopping down by the full back?
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I think what has dissapointed me most about N'Zogbia is his unwillingness to put in a cross. He practically always has to cut in.
EDIT: Though I suppose that might be down to the fact that he's playing on the right when he's left footed.
I find it difficult to remember occasions when N'Zogbia has been within 5 yards of the by line, let alone right close to it attempting to cross a ball pulled back away from the keeper and forcing defenders to stretch for a ball angled away from them. Hutton has done this more than N'Zogbia.
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The gist of the OP's question is shoule we be in a better position given the resources available?
A few points:
The signings.... Friedal needed replacing, a wide player was needed to supply Bent and we've been saying for ages the RB position needed sorting. Up to this point I'd say he did OK in spotting what the priorities were, but then we come to the midfield....
He inherited a squad with one, ageing, proven midfielder. He released a couple of young possibles (Makoun and Delph). As a result he was overly reliant on Ireland and Jenas. Given jenas's injury record he was in effect relying on kids from outset in the centre of the park - a suicidal risk.
Then we come to the management and tactics as the season has progressed. Scraping results with the myriad of injuries and a team of kids over the past few games is probably exceeding their capabilities (if not expectations).
The real problem was the total negativity and underperformance in the first half to two-thirds of the season. The list is almost endless - Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland (no goals - ?no assists) , N'Zog, Gabby, Heskey - of players who have contributed close to nothing all season. Admittedly a few of these didn't become bad players overnight (Dunne and Heskey were well past their sell-by date) but the others have seriously under performed.
AMc has been either unable to motivate or tactically organise the senior players. For that reason we have underperformed and for that reason he must take responsibility.
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The gist of the OP's question is shoule we be in a better position given the resources available?
A few points:
The signings.... Friedal needed replacing, a wide player was needed to supply Bent and we've been saying for ages the RB position needed sorting. Up to this point I'd say he did OK in spotting what the priorities were, but then we come to the midfield....
He inherited a squad with one, ageing, proven midfielder. He released a couple of young possibles (Makoun and Delph). As a result he was overly reliant on Ireland and Jenas. Given jenas's injury record he was in effect relying on kids from outset in the centre of the park - a suicidal risk.
Then we come to the management and tactics as the season has progressed. Scraping results with the myriad of injuries and a team of kids over the past few games is probably exceeding their capabilities (if not expectations).
The real problem was the total negativity and underperformance in the first half to two-thirds of the season. The list is almost endless - Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland (no goals - ?no assists) , N'Zog, Gabby, Heskey - of players who have contributed close to nothing all season. Admittedly a few of these didn't become bad players overnight (Dunne and Heskey were well past their sell-by date) but the others have seriously under performed.
AMc has been either unable to motivate or tactically organise the senior players. For that reason we have underperformed and for that reason he must take responsibility.
Ireland has scored 1 goal and had at least 2 assists
Otherwise agree
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The gist of the OP's question is shoule we be in a better position given the resources available?
A few points:
The signings.... Friedal needed replacing, a wide player was needed to supply Bent and we've been saying for ages the RB position needed sorting. Up to this point I'd say he did OK in spotting what the priorities were, but then we come to the midfield....
He inherited a squad with one, ageing, proven midfielder. He released a couple of young possibles (Makoun and Delph). As a result he was overly reliant on Ireland and Jenas. Given jenas's injury record he was in effect relying on kids from outset in the centre of the park - a suicidal risk.
Then we come to the management and tactics as the season has progressed. Scraping results with the myriad of injuries and a team of kids over the past few games is probably exceeding their capabilities (if not expectations).
The real problem was the total negativity and underperformance in the first half to two-thirds of the season. The list is almost endless - Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland (no goals - ?no assists) , N'Zog, Gabby, Heskey - of players who have contributed close to nothing all season. Admittedly a few of these didn't become bad players overnight (Dunne and Heskey were well past their sell-by date) but the others have seriously under performed.
AMc has been either unable to motivate or tactically organise the senior players. For that reason we have underperformed and for that reason he must take responsibility.
Ireland has scored 1 goal and had at least 2 assists
Otherwise agree
Thanks - but this isn't saying much for a player who is viewed by many as the player of the season - best of a bad lot?
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The list is almost endless - Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland (no goals - ?no assists) , N'Zog, Gabby, Heskey - of players who have contributed close to nothing all season. Admittedly a few of these didn't become bad players overnight (Dunne and Heskey were well past their sell-by date) but the others have seriously under performed.
AMc has been either unable to motivate or tactically organise the senior players. For that reason we have underperformed and for that reason he must take responsibility.
Agree with this. Instead of "Are we in Denial" this thread should have been called, "Who is more to blame, the players or the manager". I'm inclined to blame the manager.
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The gist of the OP's question is shoule we be in a better position given the resources available?
A few points:
The signings.... Friedal needed replacing, a wide player was needed to supply Bent and we've been saying for ages the RB position needed sorting. Up to this point I'd say he did OK in spotting what the priorities were, but then we come to the midfield....
He inherited a squad with one, ageing, proven midfielder. He released a couple of young possibles (Makoun and Delph). As a result he was overly reliant on Ireland and Jenas. Given jenas's injury record he was in effect relying on kids from outset in the centre of the park - a suicidal risk.
Then we come to the management and tactics as the season has progressed. Scraping results with the myriad of injuries and a team of kids over the past few games is probably exceeding their capabilities (if not expectations).
The real problem was the total negativity and underperformance in the first half to two-thirds of the season. The list is almost endless - Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland (no goals - ?no assists) , N'Zog, Gabby, Heskey - of players who have contributed close to nothing all season. Admittedly a few of these didn't become bad players overnight (Dunne and Heskey were well past their sell-by date) but the others have seriously under performed.
AMc has been either unable to motivate or tactically organise the senior players. For that reason we have underperformed and for that reason he must take responsibility.
Ireland has scored 1 goal and had at least 2 assists
Otherwise agree
Thanks - but this isn't saying much for a player who is viewed by many as the player of the season - best of a bad lot?
Personally I'd give that award to Herd but Ireland would be second.As you say there is very little to choose from.Long gone are the days when we had players making the PFA team of the year and winning young Player of the year
Thanks again Randy.Our fall from grace has been quite spectacular and sadly completely avoidable.Complete and utter negligence
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Given that not all the fees are public there's a little guesswork involved but if you go through our squad as is (including Makoun) it comes out to a value around £90m in fees paid.
I think we can all agree that there is some waste in there but even still, a squad that has cost that much to assemble shouldn't be involved in a relegation fight so no we're not in denial, we're a better squad than is being shown.
Yes we had problems last season, but that was under a manager who was wanting to play a type of football that many of our players wouldn't have been suited to, which caused a lot of friction in the squad.
A lot of the players we have are, in my opinion, the type of players McLeish would buy himself so for me the 'he needs time to build a squad of his own' argument doesn't wash.
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BTW, had to check, somebody has done the "No we're in De Amazon" joke right?
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BTW, had to check, somebody has done the "No we're in De Amazon" joke right?
We're all in despair at the moment.
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In that August thread, I said 7th to 12th was our lot. After a few games I remember saying somewhere else that we'd be competing top be the best of the rest, i.e 7th or 8th. Look at how average the mid-table clubs are? Yet, look how far below them we are. Shocking stuff. McLeish has not got the best out of his squad this season.
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How many players do we have in the squad that would be looked on as quality? If you say we have a better squad than others around us then, apart from Wolves i would say thats wrong. This is part of the in denial believing Villa players to be better than those of clubs around us. All of our back line have been have been rubbished all season by posters, the midfield has been woefull, not a standout player there in fact we are really missing Petrov even though his legs would only carry him for half a game, then the forward line, the most promising thing we have going there is a young kid who looks as if he could be really good given time. So where are these players that make our team better then the opposition? i can see all of them as a chance to win games as QPR did against Spurs but the only chance we have is against Bolton.
Can you honestly say Norwich and Swansea have stronger squads than us? Ours is at least as good as Sunderland and West Brom and they look set for top half places.
As has been mentioned, the one area you'd expect McLeish to have improved us is in defence. Our ineptitude at set-pieces is inexcusable for someone with his reputation in building defences tighter than nuns' vaginas.
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Watched Swansea a lot this season and have been impressed how their players can play simple balls along the ground and to each other, something Villa players have failed to master.
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Failed to master, or simply been discouraged from doing? Thinking about that recent interview with Hleb, quite probably the latter!
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Personnel wise, we have a better starting XI (and squad) than Nowrich, Olbiyun, Slumberland, Swansea, Stoke and co. I don't think the likes of Everton and Fulham are (or should be) drastically superior to us either.
Newcastle have better midfielders than us, and two inform forwards. But their goals against figure is far better than ours also - and I don't think their defence man for man is better than ours (I accept that there is more to defending well than just having a decent keeper and backline).
So all the signs point to McPish underperforming and not getting the best out of the tools at his disposal unfortunately.