Who is to blame?

[Oscar Arce]

For ripping the heart out of my club, making it a totally miserable experience supporting Aston Villa and the complete lack of hope we all have that award clearly has to go to Lerner, he appointed McTwat.

[Monty]

Surely the right manager for the job would be one that isn't compliant but one thy looks at Sid and KMac with the youth set up and says "that's what I can work with" instead of a massive upheaval, bringin in his own set of cronies and messing the whole system up.

We should have someone that works to our way. The way that it's been set up from the youth academy. Not the other way around.

I don't complain about Sid and K-Mac being kept on - in fact I applaud it. The question is entirely one of the motives of McLeish in agreeing to do so (the financial rewards on offer may well have been too great to turn down, particularly as there was no guarantee of his keeping his job at Blues for much longer), and of the field of candidates the board ridiculously limited themselves to.

[Risso]

I believe one of the criteria for the job last summer was that they must integrate with our coaching staff.
Some managers were not O.K with that, McLeish was.

That's always the case with appointments like that.  People desperate for a new job will generally accept whatever limitations are placed on them in the new one, if they perceive it overall as a step up.  McLeish wasn't in that strong a position as he had just relegated Blues and wasn't likely to be given any other Premier League job.  People in a stronger position, ie more sought after managers, will always have greater demands as they have more of a chance of a better job.

In business though, picking a a supplicant candidate rather than the very best available to you rarely leads to a successful outcome.  The results of this season were entirely predictable to everybody except Lerner and Faulkner, and they should hold their hands up and say they go it badly wrong.

[midnite]

Absolutely Monty. I wasnt disagreeing with your post. I was just thinking that the board wanted the new manager to work with the current set up. Maybe even McLeish had the intention to work the villa way when he wanted to take the job on back in the summer. Just that now, it's plainly obvious to all that a leopard can not change its spots and McLeish very quickly, bring surrounded by the majority of his back room staff has reverted back to type. I can't blame the board for wanting to have a manager that will fit into our set up. Maybe that was also the problem with the likes of Benitez. He wanted to change too much.

You'd like to think that the right manager for us, who ever it is. Rogers for example would look at the set up, and know that it's the right fit for him. He doesn't need to change his managerial style and the club shouldn't change their philosophy either. Including keeping Cowens and McDonald in the set up.

[N'ZMAV]

I wonder which 'candidates' would have agreed to work with our current setup and with Randy's new strict approach? It's was obvious Benitez didn't fancy that way of working.

[pauliewalnuts]

If we're appointing a manager, then we should be putting our absolute trust in him.

If the club say "You must work with Sid and KM" and the manager says "that's not the way I do it, I want my own people", then we really should be doing that the manager wants.

Anything else and it becomes a bit of a half-arsed mess.

[Monty]

Absolutely Monty. I wasnt disagreeing with your post. I was just thinking that the board wanted the new manager to work with the current set up. Maybe even McLeish had the intention to work the villa way when he wanted to take the job on back in the summer. Just that now, it's plainly obvious to all that a leopard can not change its spots and McLeish very quickly, bring surrounded by the majority of his back room staff has reverted back to type. I can't blame the board for wanting to have a manager that will fit into our set up. Maybe that was also the problem with the likes of Benitez. He wanted to change too much.

You'd like to think that the right manager for us, who ever it is. Rogers for example would look at the set up, and know that it's the right fit for him. He doesn't need to change his managerial style and the club shouldn't change their philosophy either. Including keeping Cowens and McDonald in the set up.

Oh I agree, I didn't think you disagreed! And I completely agree that someone like Rodgers would come in and make the most of the set up already in place. I mean, look at what he's done with the Swansea set up! A perfect example.

Right now, the club doesn't have a philosophy. We have the makings of one, in style and youth development, at academy level, but senior management is divorced from this completely. At Arsenal, Barca, Swansea, Udinese, Ajax (especially Ajax!), they play the same way from the youngest youth age to the senior first team. Crucially, they train the same way as well. At the moment, the disconnect between our development levels and senior team in terms of style is a chasm.

[midnite]

None that we interviewed hence we ended up scraping the barrel with McLeish. But as its been said before the board put their own silly restrictions in place with criteria like "must have premiership experience".

I'd like to think most that we interviewed stayed away because it's become a money saving exercise. Rather than staying away because of the restrictions like integrating the academy and the current coaching staff.

As Risso has said it is more difficult with the likes of the more successful managers as they can throw their weight around a bit more. Benitez can point to a champions league trophy and say that his way brings success.

[midnite]

That's the thing Monty. We're so close to having the makings of something good and that part of the frustration with fans. Our set up is good. The academy seems to be producing good players. Bodymoore Heath is a fantastic facility. We just need a few missing pieces to complete the puzzle and turn this potential into something more.

[pauliewalnuts]

That's the thing Monty. We're so close to having the makings of something good and that part of the frustration with fans. Our set up is good. The academy seems to be producing good players. Bodymoore Heath is a fantastic facility. We just need a few missing pieces to complete the puzzle and turn this potential into something more.

The problem is that the missing pieces are quite significant ones.

The most baffling thing about the McLeish appointment wasn't where he came from or the fact he'd just been relegated, it was that there was absolutely no continuity from what we started to do last season (and by the sounds of it, what we do in the reserves already) - we went from starting to try to play football like a modern football side to appointing someone who is really all about blood and sweat and effort.

Even the Martinez knock back complicated this more - if you ignore the rights or wrongs about where he and AM finished last season, there just doesn't seem to be much sense in a list which goes from Martinez to McLeish in terms of style.

It's a bit like going out for a meal, ordering the fish, being told the fish is "off" and opting to have a bowl of ice cream instead.

[pauliewalnuts]

or, as it turned out, a bowl of warm vomit.

[midnite]

Delightful image... But oh so true!

[Monty]

Modernity is the point you've hit on there, Paulie. I remember Randy trying to assure us that we have 'a very special football man' in McLeish, but everything about the man screams that he is, in fact, bog standard taken to the nth degree. I'd love to sit in on a training session. He doesn't appear to have any actual tactics, but operates on the basis of accepted cliches, received wisdom and 'that's the way things have always been done'.

When he says he doesn't want to play negatively I believe him - I just think different cliches get mixed up in his head and get confused. So he says 'keep it tight', meaning put 11 behind the ball, which ends up taking precedence over 'let's go for it lads' because of the space, time and possession we're affording the opposition. Jonathan Wilson on the Guardian pod once said that we'd be surprised how many managers in football really don't have a plan, a clue, or training or tactical nous. Given Wilson's Sunderland allegiances it seems likely he was talking about their manager at the time, Steve 'I don't do tactics' Bruce (an actual quote). I'd be surprised if McLeish isn't in this category.

[midnite]

They are significant pieces, absolutely. But it's not like we need an overhaul from the ground up. Looking at what the board wants to achieve in us becoming self sustainable it is possible. With the academy set up producing what it is. As John has pointed out. Spending £10-20 million on a or a couple of star players then works rather than making an entire squad up on the same money and not improving on what we already have.

[pauliewalnuts]

The thing is, McLeish can say "I want to play attractive football" and be telling the truth, but there's nothing in his PL history to suggest that he knows how to.

Which, of course, makes that "must have PL experience" requirement all the more fucking annoying.