McLeish could be the manager to take this club forward

[Merv]

I'd hate to think I belong to a lynch mob or that I'm putting the boot into the manager - I accept I can't see many positives to our situation but I'm also far far removed from the types who'd stage a demo and boo the guy's name before kick-off. That's unacceptable.

But everything I know about football, that made me dread the appointment of McLeish in the summer, makes me strongly doubt he's the kind of manager we need, and the kind to take us forward. I'll say again, I continue to give him a chance, as I have done all season. I'm not heartened by what I'm seeing so far. I wish I was.

Unbalanced squad - we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of that; I did say I think we're really lacking one top-class midfielder (though I could ask why AM has allowed so many midfielders to leave if that's an area of weakness) and he's been unlucky with regards to Jenas. I'm not sure that makes the squad unbalanced, we have depth in all areas, even if we are missing that one top midfield player. I notice AM seems willing to allow yet one more central midfielder, Delph, to leave on loan.

Yes, we sold six first teamers in the summer, but when we quote that figure we also need to recall the players signed to replace them: so we did bring Hutton, Given and N'Zogbia in, and Jenas on loan, so that's four back in. It wasn't a case of losing six and no-one coming in.

But again, that's back to my point. Not arguing that, in an ideal world, McLeish needs money for one or two more players - but he won't get that money. The club has embarked on a different model, one of utilising the current squad and the reserve/youth set-up... that being the case, we need to have a manager who can thrive in that environment, and I don't think we do.

[Dave Clark Five]

They let PD waste club money.

Probably a stupid question, but who's PD?

Poison Dwarf.

[Dave Clark Five]

I'd hate to think I belong to a lynch mob or that I'm putting the boot into the manager - I accept I can't see many positives to our situation but I'm also far far removed from the types who'd stage a demo and boo the guy's name before kick-off. That's unacceptable.

But everything I know about football, that made me dread the appointment of McLeish in the summer, makes me strongly doubt he's the kind of manager we need, and the kind to take us forward. I'll say again, I continue to give him a chance, as I have done all season. I'm not heartened by what I'm seeing so far. I wish I was.

Unbalanced squad - we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of that; I did say I think we're really lacking one top-class midfielder (though I could ask why AM has allowed so many midfielders to leave if that's an area of weakness) and he's been unlucky with regards to Jenas. I'm not sure that makes the squad unbalanced, we have depth in all areas, even if we are missing that one top midfield player. I notice AM seems willing to allow yet one more central midfielder, Delph, to leave on loan.

Yes, we sold six first teamers in the summer, but when we quote that figure we also need to recall the players signed to replace them: so we did bring Hutton, Given and N'Zogbia in, and Jenas on loan, so that's four back in. It wasn't a case of losing six and no-one coming in.

But again, that's back to my point. Not arguing that, in an ideal world, McLeish needs money for one or two more players - but he won't get that money. The club has embarked on a different model, one of utilising the current squad and the reserve/youth set-up... that being the case, we need to have a manager who can thrive in that environment, and I don't think we do.

Fair enough. I didn't intend to generalise. I was aiming the comment at those who repeatedly trot out the moronic drivel about 'two relegations' and 'worst player ever -Alan Hutton'. They are not prepared to give him a chance. It is true that there has not been much anti-McLeish chanting. I get the feeling that this is about as good as it will ever get. Will we ever get to find out if he is accepted as a successful manager? We can only hope so. Idiotic demonstrations that totally fail to catch on create a bad vibe. Unfortunately, the chanting, if it starts, will be sudden, when all those who have held back will join in with their fellow brothers; a bit like the 'you don't know what you're doing', which was considerably helped by the away fans incidentally. Once it starts, it will get out of control and we would probably lose every game from thereon in. We must avoid that situation developing by supporting the manager. Lerner will make his own mind up.

It is only my own view but I get a gut feeling when a manager should go. It has not happened so far this season.

[QBVILLA]

I personally feel that McLeish will never be accepted by the fans, much like George Graham was never accepted by the Spurs fans despite bringing them success in the form of a league cup and a much improved league position.The fact that he came from the Blues really doesn't bother me one iota.His brand of football is my biggest issue with him but that could be changed if that brand of football starting getting us wins.You only have to look at this forum to see how much venom is aimed at O'Neill to see that by nature there's a large amount of Villa fans who are happier when we're moaning.In the summer Martinez wasn't good enough, the thought of McClaren caused uproar and then to top it off we appoint the manager who has just got Birmingham relegated.We are a club who had their expectation levels raised to a point where O'Neill wasn't good enough as he could only get us to 6th.Now we're having to look upwards to find Swansea and Norwich.McLeish is getting it in the neck but he really isn't the whole problem, he's just an easy target.

[Concrete John]

The one thing any manager asks for in a new job is time.

McLeish hasn't had much of it yet, which is compounded by being handcuffed in the transfer market so far.  And although we can point to four coming in, the transfer profit made points to the fact the quality was less than went out, hence it's not 4 like-for-like coming in compared to those going out.  Only in the Given are we been able to see any improvement quality wise.

But that's money and transfers, which we can all plainly see, what we can't see is what goes on behind closed doors and during training, where I think he's trying to get a more fluid, possession based and attacking game from the team.  We've seen glimpses of it, but largely I'll admit it's been disappointing.  And that's where the time issue comes in.  It may turn out he;'s ultimately not good enough, but I'm not willing to write him off until he's had a chance to put his own stamp on the squad and at least one full season to get to grips with the club.

[Simba]

Randy will give him time and Alex will be kept on - relegation or no. 

Hopefully we will survive and Alex will be judged as a Premier League Manager from next season which is fair given the need to get to grips with the Club, loss of key players etc.

My fear is that DC5 is correct and a fan backlash is not far away, will happen exponentially and be very vicious. If it gets really bad we might be reading a 'mutual consent' letter.

Alex needs a couple of wins and committed positive performances on the trot. Simple.   (!)

[Monty]

What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?

Sorry DC5, I'd love to be positive but I don't see how it's possible. Why should I get behind a manager I don't think is right for the club? The same argument applied to political leaders and countries is one used by dictators and is famously flimsy. Blind loyalty gets nobody anywhere.

That's an extremely fatuous analogy. You should give the mana chance, losing six first team regulars in the summer would have caused a problem for whoever got the job. We're trying to build a team on the go, the best we could ever hope for this season was mid table. 

I'm not saying he is an equivalent to a dictator, just that the argument is similarly not based on facts but on hope. Unhelpful language, I admit, but it was the only one I could think of. Anyway.

I give the man a chance. Every week, sometimes twice a week, when the team goes out, I give him more than a chance: I hope he's right, I hope he proves all the doubters, including (fuck it, especially) me, wrong.

You're right, the circumstances he's in aren't the easiest, and yes, mid-table maybe the best we could hope for. But we're not in an overly different position to Blues this time last year and, while I don't think we're going down, I still think we have better players than they did last year, so that performance isn't fantastic.

But more than that. I've said before that I don't mind being in mid-table if that's all the club can achieve right now. But McLeish's football isn't just mediocre - it's nihilistic. It's actively painful to watch for large parts of it. And, crucially, the man is into his 50s, well established in his managerial career, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing in the past to suggest that he knows how to implement any of the strategies he claims to endorse in terms of attacking football. Not only that, the evidence of both numbers and statistics supports the reverse (you said that article conveniently ignored the last game - that's an appalling analysis criticism, considering that it's one game out of many which confirm the opposite view).

I couldn't give a damn about his Blues connections - in fact, were he a good manager, I'd love it even more that we'd nabbed him from them, it would have been hilarious. I will continue, every Saturday at 2.59pm (or whenever we're playing) to forget my reservations and watch objectively. But as every game proves as disappointing as the last, during the week it is impossible for me to forget and shelve these reservations.

[themossman]

I'm not falling over myself with enthusiasm for him but I do believe he's got enough in the plus column to justify more time. The decent unbeaten streak at the beginning, signs of better football in December, Chelsea win, getting more out of key players like Gabby, Dunne and Ireland than Houllier ever did, Given. Nothing earth shattering but without the blues connection I think the vast majority would think he was doing a competent job in hard circumstances.

[Chris Smith]

The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.

I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.

And "nihilistic", are you sure?

[Monty]

The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't knowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.

I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.

And "nihilistic", are you sure?

Sorry Chris, that's just bollocks. You can't just go out there and accuse me of thinking things which I just didn't. Sure, I was far from enamoured by the appointment, I think we all were, but certainly in the early days I did nothing but give him the benefit of the doubt: I thought Hutton could have been a good signing (who knows, he may still turn out to be), I certainly liked the N'Zogbia signing, I agreed (still do) about playing Gabby on the wing, praised the improved fitness of players like Petrov and Dunne, thought the way he gave Bannan and Herd decent chances in the first team was a good thing, and he appears to have given Ireland the confidence back to play well.

These are positives. However, those numerous negatives detailed everywhere outweigh them for me. I don't boo the team, never have and, probably, never will, I haven't gone on any demonstrations, I still hope he gets it right, but I just struggle to see how he will given the facts available. I mean, for goodness' sake, after one game he said "the passing was poor, which I can't do anything about" - really? For a manager to say that is pretty amazing.

I acknowledged the improvement in performances more than most. You can also talk about how there are instances of obvious contradictions to the article, but this is my fundamental problem: I don't doubt that he wants to be more attacking, I just doubt that he knows how. I don't question his sincerity - just his competence. And lord knows, on some occasions his commitment to attacking football has certainly waned - the selections and performances against Spurs and (people don't talk about this one so much, but it stuck in my mind) Stoke were certainly nihilistic (one use of the word: "The belief that all endeavours are ultimately futile and devoid of meaning" - not a bad description of our Spurs capitulation).

It's notable that, since Ireland has replaced the injured Heskey in the side, the football has improved. But that wasn't a tactical switch - that was just Heskey getting injured, so he put someone in the team to operate in the same areas. Would he have done this if Heskey was fully fit? We might never know, but the fact that he only did it because of an injury to Emile could be called telling.

Look, it's obvious we're not going to come to an agreement on this. I reserve the right to be reasonably critical. You're treating my arguments as if I'm dazzyg or someone, which I find a little unfair. My arguments are, I believe, based on evidence and certainly comprise an understandable position to hold at the present time. They're also subject to change on the basis of evidence.

[James]

Randy will give him time and Alex will be kept on - relegation or no. 

Hopefully we will survive and Alex will be judged as a Premier League Manager from next season which is fair given the need to get to grips with the Club, loss of key players etc.

My fear is that DC5 is correct and a fan backlash is not far away, will happen exponentially and be very vicious. If it gets really bad we might be reading a 'mutual consent' letter.

Alex needs a couple of wins and committed positive performances on the trot. Simple.   (!)

Could be soon too! Fail to beat Wolves and QPR and possibly get dumped by the Arse in between and that might just do it! Of course, win those two and even a loss to the Arse 'whilst trying' as at Xmas and there's a different picture, but we need to be out of, or at least on our way out of, the shit by Mid-March and the next (league) trip to the Emirates because the season can still get very painful if we're not! We may be mid-table 'quality', but we certainly are not in actuality. McLeish now needs wins more than performances, then we will see.

[not3bad]

I think tomorrow's match at Wolves could represent an opportunity for Mcleish.  If Villa play well and win he will be able to point to a run of genuinely good form away from home, and the emphasis will shift more from a general analysis of Mcleish's management to the question why Villa aren't good at home.  This will certainly not be the first time Villa have been decent on the road but not as good on their own patch.

[Hoppo]

which players are against Alex DC5?

[Hoppo]

As ive just put on the match thread Alexs birthday tomorrow. Maybe its time to get behind him and the players? It looks like a relegation battle is on we need to be united. It smells of 86\87. Untill Randy changes course were going to be swimming against the tide no matter who is in charge.

[Pete3206]

It smells of 86\87

No it doesn't, nothing like it. We were absolutely doomed that season.