Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: nigel on January 14, 2012, 06:31:17 PM
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As Walters Warriors requested.
My opinion: Why shouldn't he be the one?
He came into the job knowing that he'd have to balance the books and sell before buying. All this after losing our 2 best players from the previous season.
We all knew this was going to be a very difficult season, I do feel some supporters have delusions of grandeur in their expectations.
We have to give him this season to sort things out, then, hopefully, Randy will allow him to put his mark on the team. You have to remember that 8 of the 11 today were from MO'Ns team!!
............................... over to you
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Tin hat time, I reckon Nigel.
He's not as black as some paint him, I will give you that and I definitely don't think Lerner's austerity regime is helping him or the fact that he is forced to persist with the same useless players who have let us down in the past. What we needed to do was to clear the decks and get shot of the players who caused us problems as Houllier wanted.
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I agree with a lot of what you say Nigel, but this might not be a good time to consider the positives. We all need to see the positives in front of our eyes first before we believe, and the last 12-18 months have made skeptics out of all us to one degree or another. McLeish will be given time by the board to put his stamp on the club, he just doesn't have the time normally afforded to manager's that might have arrived under different circumstances. But those are the cards he's been dealt.
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As Walters Warriors requested.
My opinion: Why shouldn't he be the one?
He came into the job knowing that he'd have to balance the books and sell before buying. All this after losing our 2 best players from the previous season.
We all knew this was going to be a very difficult season, I do feel some supporters have delusions of grandeur in their expectations.
We have to give him this season to sort things out, then, hopefully, Randy will allow him to put his mark on the team. You have to remember that 8 of the 11 today were from MO'Ns team!!
............................... over to you
Yeah 8 of the 11 were from a team which finished sixth three times. That's hardly making McLeish look brilliant is it?
Obviously, losing four home games on the bounce, not winning any of the last five, and only scoring two goals in the process is great, and you have to be deluded to think otherwise.
So where is the evidence he might be the man? Not the excuses, the things that point to him being a good appointment? A list of excuses isn't it, by the way.
You're right, though, we have to give him this season, as Randy won't sack him, but look at the state of our club and the way things are going.
Well done, Mr Chairman, your pathetic running of the club has pissed away everything your money had achieved in four years, and we are back where we started.
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He relegated a team twice from the PL. They way we are going 21 games 24 points follows Small Heath's performance last year. So his results coupled with his style of football I am afraid he is not the man.
Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
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He needs to wholesale change our back four. Sell those 4 who started today. Give them frees, get them off the wage bill. Sign some decent defenders. At a push, I'd keep Dunne, but the other 3 are a disgrace. And we need to do that now, in January.
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I'm not impressed by McLeish, but there is no point in sacking him mid-season unless he drags us into a relegation battle. Also, the appointment of Big Eck is also just one of a several strange decisions made by the board in recent years.
It's as if Lerner feels that that after the gluttony of the MON years have to go through purgatory and be cleansed before we are able to aim for success again. And the list of MON's sins seem to be very long, because the end of the period in purgatory is still not in sight* - despite the sales of Harewood, Sidwell, NRC, Carew, Young, Young, Downing etc.
*However, from this perspective, the appointment of McLeish makes sense: the more we suffer in purgatory, the faster we're cleansed.
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Yeah 8 of the 11 were from a team which finished sixth three times. That's hardly making McLeish look brilliant is it?
Erm...
Given - 0
Hutton - 0
Collins - 1
Dunne - 1
Warnock - 1
Albrighton - 0
Petrov - 3
Clark - 0
Ireland - 0
Agbonlahor - 3
Bent - 0
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
Bang on, nobody should doubt the significance or impact this could have on the club come the summer should we continue down this road, the knock on effect this will have on next season should we survive this, the only possible way of redressing this kind of loss is to sell players.
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
I think it is £1.5 million a season not per game.............
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
I think it is £1.5 million a season not per game.............
yes silly me, i guess £1.5 million is not such a big deal
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No he's not. Yes we've got a pretty weak squad and he is having to work in some shitty conditions but he's done nothing to help himself.
Not having the balls to drop under-performing players is unforgivable. Over the last 5-6 games warnock has had 1 good performance against chelsea and the rest have been 2-3 out 10 at best. Heskey and Collins have also had far more time on the pitch than their performances have merited.
Using the small squad excuse is unforgivable. Against Bristol Rovers Petrov played a full game when we could've taken him off at half time and given Gardner or Bannan a good run out rather than a pointless few minutes at the end.
He's also made lots of comments about not being negative but every week the team lines up in the first half to hold positions and play it safe (this is assumed form the fact that it happens every week, if it's not under instruction then his failing is a complete inability to get the team to do what he wants, either way it's piss poor).
I just can't see any positives to him still being here in the summer, he's bought in 4 players so far, Jenas can't be judged other than was it a good idea to offer that loan deal for a guy who's had that many injury problems but the others: N'Zogbia has been pretty poor and mcleish hasn't got any idea how to get the best out of him; Hutton has been awful, he is reckless defensively and always looks likely to give something away and offers nothing going forward; Keane it's too early to judge but then by the time he's settled he'll be off again so seems a waste of time to me.
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You should send this question into Fighting Talk in 5Live for the final 'Defend the Indefensible' question.
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I just can't see any positives to him still being here in the summer, he's bought in 4 players so far, Jenas can't be judged other than was it a good idea to offer that loan deal for a guy who's had that many injury problems but the others: N'Zogbia has been pretty poor and mcleish hasn't got any idea how to get the best out of him; Hutton has been awful, he is reckless defensively and always looks likely to give something away and offers nothing going forward; Keane it's too early to judge but then by the time he's settled he'll be off again so seems a waste of time to me.
Shay Given?
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
I think it is £1.5 million a season not per game.............
yes silly me, i guess £1.5 million is not such a big deal
It is £1.05M per game. 30x35,000 = 1.05M.
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He was bought in to do the job that he is doing, keep us in the PL without investment, wether our Chairman factored in the decline in attendancies and the general apathy around the club is another matter.
The Telegraph reported today that we are down £1.5 miilion match day revenue, over 19 games thats £28.5 million and you would have to guess that this will get worse over the next half of the season, and what about next season?
As Paulie said, RL has managed to completely wipe out the momentum form his previous investment.
These numbers are significant.
I think it is £1.5 million a season not per game.............
yes silly me, i guess £1.5 million is not such a big deal
It is £1.5M pet game. 30x35,000 = 1.5M.
I'm confused now. Maths has never been my strong point. You're saying that 35,000 people are spending £30 less per game this season so costing us £1.5m per game?
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Sorry. Slipped a decimal point in my first post. £30 x 35,00 people is £1.05M. Just quoting the projected receipts for that particular gate.
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Sorry. Slipped a decimal point in my first post. £30 x 35,00 people is £1.05M.
I'm still confused! How are we making £30 less per game x 35,000 people? Surely that would only be the case if we had crowds that were 35,000 lower than last year?
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Yeah 8 of the 11 were from a team which finished sixth three times. That's hardly making McLeish look brilliant is it?
Erm...
Given - 0
Hutton - 0
Collins - 1
Dunne - 1
Warnock - 1
Albrighton - 0
Petrov - 3
Clark - 0
Ireland - 0
Agbonlahor - 3
Bent - 0
Well thats a fair enough point.
But then you have to consider that Ireland, Bent and Given are all quality players.
We SHOULD be doing better.
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
I would have liked Keane on at 60 mins but who should Alex have taken off?
The only answer to this is to play every game behind closed doors because the whingeing is doing my head in.
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
I would have liked Keane on at 60 mins but who should Alex have taken off?
The only answer to this is to play every game behind closed doors because the whingeing is doing my head in.
Exactly. The only player AM could've brought off without being booed and moaned at was Warnock, and he did it. People were calling out for Keane, but had no idea who to bring him on for. I bet there was very, very few people who suggested bringing him on for Warnock. Makes you wonder if people just wanted Keane on so they could boo in "protest" at whoever was going to brought off.
Away games are the way forward. Much more enjoyable.
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Nigel i would just like to say fairplay for starting this thread which i suggested Saturday morning.
The Mcleish out thread was self destructing our own club. This way it can change the nature in which we view our managers position. Hawkeye points out he was brought in to do the job he is doing and Paul_e questions his signings (but forgets to mention Shay Given) CBBB kind of somes it up for me. Everyone wanted Keane on yesterday but we were having our best period of the game except Warnock. So he replaced him. We have to get behind Mcleish and start looking at players who do not perform and hope he does something about them like he did today .....
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Nice sentiments here but I doubt McLeish will ever be accepted as our manager. He needed to get off to a flyer and prove his critics wrong early to get fans on board but everything has gone as expected. Who is surprised to see us in this state? No-one, it felt like our destiny from the minute McLeish was confirmed.
Yes the fans could have been more patient but when no-one wanted him in the first place and he was appointed after many thousands had already renewed their tickets, why should we be? It's human nature to be stubborn and say 'I told you so' if someone doesn't take your advice and it feels like that is happening on a large scale with many fans right now.
The worst thing for me now is that we are going to be in that middle ground where we are a poor unwatchable team but not quite bad enough for Lerner/Faulkner to admit they got it wrong and sack him.
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
Although you could argue that playing by playing both Clark and Petrov at home is too defensive in the first place and maybe we should have started with 2 strikers up top
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Sorry. Slipped a decimal point in my first post. £30 x 35,00 people is £1.05M. Just quoting the projected receipts for that particular gate.
We are down on average 2.5K per game - I did the maths on another thread but at say £40 per ticket that is £100K lost per game. Over 19 home games that is £1.9million give or take a few £100K for cheaper tickets.
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
Although you could argue that playing by playing both Clark and Petrov at home is too defensive in the first place and maybe we should have started with 2 strikers up top
Two strikers and Ireland in a free role would have left us far too open, in my opinion whereas the 4-2-3-1 gives freedom for your front 4 to attack.
As to the main point we're a club that is currently geared up to being mid-table, we've cut the squad and are spending a season assessing which of our youngsters are going to be up to the job long term. So McLeish is doing exactly what is expected of him. He's also done something tat Houllier completely failed to do and find a way of getting the best outvof Stephen Ireand.
The test will be what happens next, I liked the tone of his email next week and despite my misgivings over his appointment I've a feeling he might well surprise us all..
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Interesting economics. BPS100k lost per game. Two players weekly wage. No wonder the wage bill is over 80% of revenue. Unsustainable.
And no, AMCl is not the manager to take us forward. With our squad we should be performing much better and after half a season performing with more fluidity, consistancy, guile and threat. imho
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Well done him for taking off Warnock and bringing on Keane. It was an attacking substitution that could've cost us a point but could've won us two. Exactly the sort of change that his detractors say he is scared to make.
I would have liked Keane on at 60 mins but who should Alex have taken off?
The only answer to this is to play every game behind closed doors because the whingeing is doing my head in.
I'd have made a double substitution. Keane for Warnock. And n'zogbia for Gabby. Gabby just wasn't at the races yesterday!
I really like Mcleish as a bloke and I'm not for slagging him or the team off during the match. it doesn't help. But this negative football is drivvel.
The midfield play far too deep, and pratically sit om the back four. That simply ist good enough. Apart from the midfield 3 of Clark, Petrov and Ireland we look out of shape.
It might sound drastic, but I'd remove Mcleish and give the job to
Kev Mac and Sid
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As put on the after match thread, he is a manager being asked to play a different style to what he is comfortable with, from pressure being brought on (quite rightly) by fans, who will not stand, by not turning up, for the dross that we have seen and to do this with players in vital positions, that are simply not good enough.
Unable to build the confidence of the senior players, for whatever reasons, so no time to start bleeding youngsters.
No funds to correct the problems highlighted above, so not a very bright outlook, or should that be future.
The cash situation he, you would think was aware of, before accepting the position, so whatever he thought he could bring to the table at the moment is not working.
So in answer to the question, the same as if I'd been asked when he first came and nothing to do with where he came from, No he is not.
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The substitution of Warnock was not a tactical move, it was punishment for Warnock's errors. With ten minutes to go it was a lollipop to the crowd to give Warnock the big hook and bring on the PR stunt which is Robbie Keane. As I posted earlier Albrighton never has a so so game. He is either brilliant or a total liability and yesterday was the latter. He should have come off as soon as we were unable to continue the momentum the goal gave us. Marc's all round game was dire. His part in their goal, his crossing, his corners should have had him substituted on the hour mark and N'Zogbia brought on.
To return to the thread I think the most depressing thing about the appointment of Alex McLeish is that he is at Villa Park for the long term regardless of results on the pitch.
Using the half a season he has had in charge upon which to predicate the future I come the the very regrettable conclusion that if we do not get relegated this season we will be relegated next season.
If the second half of this season shows an upturn in his ability to get the best out of his players and equally important, the best out of himself, the future would be brighter. I suspect that we will hobble along until May much the same way has we have done since July.
I must add that my view is not anti McLeish. The problem as I have expressed on other threads is that he was not appointed for football reasons, he was appointed for financial reasons.
I think Randy Lerner was deeply hurt by the manner of O'Neill's departure and the subsequent bitter acrimony of his action against the club for constructive dismissal. Add to that the total balls up being made by the board over a replacement for Houllier with the club being ridiculed on a daily basis in the media and Randy Lerner took matters into his own hands and appointed Alex McLeish.
From that moment on I think Randy fell out of love with the Villa and said to himself that the investment was to be run like any other of his business interests.
Alex McLeish was so grateful for being rescued from the living death which was Small Heath that he will do anything for Randy Lerner.
My view was the mainstream view I believe in that I thought McLeish was the wrong manager and we should have got somebody better but like many I did console myself with the belief that because McLeish is very much Lerner's man and Lerner holds the purse strings, the owner will back his man financially. This has not transpired and every vibe coming out of the club is that we are as penniless as Everton. The sticking plaster PR move of sporting a million quid on Keane to shut the fans up, the comment that the long awaited Villa museum will only go ahead when it is "financially viable" (a museum FFS from a man who sponsored a whole lump of the National Gallery) are very telling.
All the woes of the club from the decline in playing standards which were already showing when O'Neill flounced, to the madness of appointing an old sick man to a killer job, to the balls ups of the board in having no football savvy, to bad luck (Jenas), to declining crowds, to having to use players like Emile Heskey who was a long time figure of ridicule for the bulk of the fans, to coping with a crippling wages bill racked up by O'Neill - all of this shit is laid at the manager's door.
With his limited abilities and no money to speak of Alex McLeish has done just about what we have a right to expect. If we go down he will stay because this board will say he is the perfect man to get us back in the Premiership.
Aston Villa's problems do not lie at managerial level, they are at board and ownership level. The thread should enquire whether they can take us forward.
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I back McLeish 100% , and results willing and people keeping off his back, I back him long term for us to move forward.
From the outset, we had the ridiculous spectacle of `fans` wanting him sacked before he had even signed a contract and done a single days work on our behalf. All because of a stupid misguided tribalism, where some people are more concerned about rivalries with another club who should be irrelevant to us instead of what is best for the long term health of Aston Villa.
Of course now what most of the anti - Mcleish crowd say is it not his former connections but his defensive minded tactics and poor managerial ability the reasons they cannot back him. Nothing to do with him having been employed by Birmingham City. What complete bullshit !
All managers live and die by results, but dont tell me that if any other candidate for the job had been appointed and they had exactly the same set of results and performances with the same resources they would be suffering the same level of antipathy and calls for their removal.
What I see is someone with strength of character and confidence in their own ability conducting themselves with integrity in the face of unjustified abuse. Those are the sort of people I want working in our club - professionals with integrity.
Those who are so anti - Mcleish, just be honest, you wont give him a more of a chance because you think of him as a bluenose. But no you wont do that because from day one you didnt want him and barring an absolutely miraculous set of results you were going to find every other reason under the sun to justify why he shouldnt be given a chance to do good for us.
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The substitution of Warnock was not a tactical move, it was punishment for Warnock's errors. With ten minutes to go it was a lollipop to the crowd to give Warnock the big hook and bring on the PR stunt which is Robbie Keane. As I posted earlier Albrighton never has a so so game. He is either brilliant or a total liability and yesterday was the latter. He should have come off as soon as we were unable to continue the momentum the goal gave us. Marc's all round game was dire. His part in their goal, his crossing, his corners should have had him substituted on the hour mark and N'Zogbia brought on.
To return to the thread I think the most depressing thing about the appointment of Alex McLeish is that he is at Villa Park for the long term regardless of results on the pitch.
Using the half a season he has had in charge upon which to predicate the future I come the the very regrettable conclusion that if we do not get relegated this season we will be relegated next season.
If the second half of this season shows an upturn in his ability to get the best out of his players and equally important, the best out of himself, the future would be brighter. I suspect that we will hobble along until May much the same way has we have done since July.
I must add that my view is not anti McLeish. The problem as I have expressed on other threads is that he was not appointed for football reasons, he was appointed for financial reasons.
I think Randy Lerner was deeply hurt by the manner of O'Neill's departure and the subsequent bitter acrimony of his action against the club for constructive dismissal. Add to that the total balls up being made by the board over a replacement for Houllier with the club being ridiculed on a daily basis in the media and Randy Lerner took matters into his own hands and appointed Alex McLeish.
From that moment on I think Randy fell out of love with the Villa and said to himself that the investment was to be run like any other of his business interests.
Alex McLeish was so grateful for being rescued from the living death which was Small Heath that he will do anything for Randy Lerner.
My view was the mainstream view I believe in that I thought McLeish was the wrong manager and we should have got somebody better but like many I did console myself with the belief that because McLeish is very much Lerner's man and Lerner holds the purse strings, the owner will back his man financially. This has not transpired and every vibe coming out of the club is that we are as penniless as Everton. The sticking plaster PR move of sporting a million quid on Keane to shut the fans up, the comment that the long awaited Villa museum will only go ahead when it is "financially viable" (a museum FFS from a man who sponsored a whole lump of the National Gallery) are very telling.
All the woes of the club from the decline in playing standards which were already showing when O'Neill flounced, to the madness of appointing an old sick man to a killer job, to the balls ups of the board in having no football savvy, to bad luck (Jenas), to declining crowds, to having to use players like Emile Heskey who was a long time figure of ridicule for the bulk of the fans, to coping with a crippling wages bill racked up by O'Neill - all of this shit is laid at the manager's door.
With his limited abilities and no money to speak of Alex McLeish has done just about what we have a right to expect. If we go down he will stay because this board will say he is the perfect man to get us back in the Premiership.
Aston Villa's problems do not lie at managerial level, they are at board and ownership level. The thread should enquire whether they can take us forward.
Spot on as ever Brian, especially the bit I've taken the liability of putting in bold.
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McLeish has been relegated twice in the last few years and bored the arse of every nose I know, I'd have been as opposed to Mick McCarthy's appointment.
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I back McLeish 100% , and results willing and people keeping off his back, I back him long term for us to move forward.
From the outset, we had the ridiculous spectacle of `fans` wanting him sacked before he had even signed a contract and done a single days work on our behalf. All because of a stupid misguided tribalism, where some people are more concerned about rivalries with another club who should be irrelevant to us instead of what is best for the long term health of Aston Villa.
Of course now what most of the anti - Mcleish crowd say is it not his former connections but his defensive minded tactics and poor managerial ability the reasons they cannot back him. Nothing to do with him having been employed by Birmingham City. What complete bullshit !
All managers live and die by results, but dont tell me that if any other candidate for the job had been appointed and they had exactly the same set of results and performances with the same resources they would be suffering the same level of antipathy and calls for their removal.
What I see is someone with strength of character and confidence in their own ability conducting themselves with integrity in the face of unjustified abuse. Those are the sort of people I want working in our club - professionals with integrity.
Those who are so anti - Mcleish, just be honest, you wont give him a more of a chance because you think of him as a bluenose. But no you wont do that because from day one you didnt want him and barring an absolutely miraculous set of results you were going to find every other reason under the sun to justify why he shouldnt be given a chance to do good for us.
That may be true for the small minority, ie the kind of simpleton who sprayed anti-SHA slogans on walls after he was appointed, but the majority of right minded fans just don't like his rubbish style of play and two relegations in three years.
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Aston Villa's problems do not lie at managerial level, they are at board and ownership level. The thread should enquire whether they can take us forward.
Depressingly that is so true. However what choice do we have there?
Supporters can influence a manager change but not board change.
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If anything will make the board take notice that the way they are running the club is all wrong, it will be yesterday's crowd. A Saturday 3pm kick off, not on the telly, and no other distractions, and a truly dismal crowd.
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If anything will make the board take notice that the way they are running the club is all wrong, it will be yesterday's crowd. A Saturday 3pm kick off, not on the telly, and no other distractions, and a truly dismal crowd.
Very true can you imagine how poor it will be next season
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Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
I agree, Lambert is doing well at Norwich, so too the chap at Swansea.
Remember, though, these clubs supporters don't have the expectations like at clubs like ours.
They can play with no fear, just like Blackpool last season, and because everyone expects them to go straight back down there is no pressure.
I just wonder how they would cope at a club where to finish below 8th is deemed failure, just as some supporters of our club do.
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The substitution of Warnock was not a tactical move, it was punishment for Warnock's errors. With ten minutes to go it was a lollipop to the crowd to give Warnock the big hook and bring on the PR stunt which is Robbie Keane. As I posted earlier Albrighton never has a so so game. He is either brilliant or a total liability and yesterday was the latter. He should have come off as soon as we were unable to continue the momentum the goal gave us. Marc's all round game was dire. His part in their goal, his crossing, his corners should have had him substituted on the hour mark and N'Zogbia brought on.
To return to the thread I think the most depressing thing about the appointment of Alex McLeish is that he is at Villa Park for the long term regardless of results on the pitch.
Using the half a season he has had in charge upon which to predicate the future I come the the very regrettable conclusion that if we do not get relegated this season we will be relegated next season.
If the second half of this season shows an upturn in his ability to get the best out of his players and equally important, the best out of himself, the future would be brighter. I suspect that we will hobble along until May much the same way has we have done since July.
I must add that my view is not anti McLeish. The problem as I have expressed on other threads is that he was not appointed for football reasons, he was appointed for financial reasons.
I think Randy Lerner was deeply hurt by the manner of O'Neill's departure and the subsequent bitter acrimony of his action against the club for constructive dismissal. Add to that the total balls up being made by the board over a replacement for Houllier with the club being ridiculed on a daily basis in the media and Randy Lerner took matters into his own hands and appointed Alex McLeish.
From that moment on I think Randy fell out of love with the Villa and said to himself that the investment was to be run like any other of his business interests.
Alex McLeish was so grateful for being rescued from the living death which was Small Heath that he will do anything for Randy Lerner.
My view was the mainstream view I believe in that I thought McLeish was the wrong manager and we should have got somebody better but like many I did console myself with the belief that because McLeish is very much Lerner's man and Lerner holds the purse strings, the owner will back his man financially. This has not transpired and every vibe coming out of the club is that we are as penniless as Everton. The sticking plaster PR move of sporting a million quid on Keane to shut the fans up, the comment that the long awaited Villa museum will only go ahead when it is "financially viable" (a museum FFS from a man who sponsored a whole lump of the National Gallery) are very telling.
All the woes of the club from the decline in playing standards which were already showing when O'Neill flounced, to the madness of appointing an old sick man to a killer job, to the balls ups of the board in having no football savvy, to bad luck (Jenas), to declining crowds, to having to use players like Emile Heskey who was a long time figure of ridicule for the bulk of the fans, to coping with a crippling wages bill racked up by O'Neill - all of this shit is laid at the manager's door.
With his limited abilities and no money to speak of Alex McLeish has done just about what we have a right to expect. If we go down he will stay because this board will say he is the perfect man to get us back in the Premiership.
Aston Villa's problems do not lie at managerial level, they are at board and ownership level. The thread should enquire whether they can take us forward.
If I could write eloquently I would have written exactly that.I can't so I didn't.
In other words I agree with this entirely.
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If anything will make the board take notice that the way they are running the club is all wrong, it will be yesterday's crowd. A Saturday 3pm kick off, not on the telly, and no other distractions, and a truly dismal crowd.
Agreed and according to an Everton supporting mate they sold their allocation.
Looking at the fixtures remaining the average attendance is only going to get worse.
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He is a poor manager and will NOT take us forward. End of.
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If anything will make the board take notice that the way they are running the club is all wrong, it will be yesterday's crowd. A Saturday 3pm kick off, not on the telly, and no other distractions, and a truly dismal crowd.
I think they will blame the poor crowd on the post christmas squeeze on finances and the continued economic depression rather than the dire fare served up on the pitch along with increasing fan apathy? It's like the goverment - a ready made excuse when heaping more financial woes on the population!
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I agree with all you have posted Brian.
I have no expectation that the board will reverse it's current strategy and this can only lead to a prolonged period of mediocracy and possible relagations.
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He is a poor manager and will NOT take us forward. End of.
My toughts exactly. And judging by the way he did not motivate Birmingham towards the end of last season I really hope we are not too close to the bottom three towards the end of the season. AM is a very poor manager.
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Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
I agree, Lambert is doing well at Norwich, so too the chap at Swansea.
Remember, though, these clubs supporters don't have the expectations like at clubs like ours.
They can play with no fear, just like Blackpool last season, and because everyone expects them to go straight back down there is no pressure.
I just wonder how they would cope at a club where to finish below 8th is deemed failure, just as some supporters of our club do.
That would describe SHA under AM, I wonder where their performances were?
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Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
I agree, Lambert is doing well at Norwich, so too the chap at Swansea.
Remember, though, these clubs supporters don't have the expectations like at clubs like ours.
They can play with no fear, just like Blackpool last season, and because everyone expects them to go straight back down there is no pressure.
I just wonder how they would cope at a club where to finish below 8th is deemed failure, just as some supporters of our club do.
If you pick a successful manager from a smaller team, you give yourself a chance. Picking a crap manager from a small team with two relegations and with a reputation for playing awful football is just shooting yourself in the foot.
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this can only lead to a prolonged period of mediocracy and possible relagations.
You are suggesting we could go down more than one level ? It has happened before and some of us are old enough to remember.
As much as I have fond memories of our days in the 3rd division, let me assure you there is absolutely no comparison between how Villa are in 2012 and how they were during the 1960s decline.
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The best we can hope from McCleish is that he can sort out the defence and make us alot tighter at the back. His teams have never been attacking, the season he took Blues to 9th they scored 38 goals, last season they scored 37. Even their season in the Championship they only scored 54, the lowest amount in the top ten.
This season we have scored 23 goals so far and assuming a miracle doesn't happen and we remain a dull and turgid team we will score about 40 goals this season.
So if you are happy that maybe, maybe, McCleish can make us better at the back then yes he could secure us the odd top ten finish. For me, I would rather take the risk on a younger manager with better ideas of how the game should be played.
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i've been impressed by lambert. My only reservation is his vague resemblance to MON. At least he doesn't seem to have the same personality or pseudo-intellectual interview technique
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I back McLeish 100% , and results willing and people keeping off his back, I back him long term for us to move forward.
From the outset, we had the ridiculous spectacle of `fans` wanting him sacked before he had even signed a contract and done a single days work on our behalf. All because of a stupid misguided tribalism, where some people are more concerned about rivalries with another club who should be irrelevant to us instead of what is best for the long term health of Aston Villa.
Of course now what most of the anti - Mcleish crowd say is it not his former connections but his defensive minded tactics and poor managerial ability the reasons they cannot back him. Nothing to do with him having been employed by Birmingham City. What complete bullshit !
All managers live and die by results, but dont tell me that if any other candidate for the job had been appointed and they had exactly the same set of results and performances with the same resources they would be suffering the same level of antipathy and calls for their removal.
What I see is someone with strength of character and confidence in their own ability conducting themselves with integrity in the face of unjustified abuse. Those are the sort of people I want working in our club - professionals with integrity.
Those who are so anti - Mcleish, just be honest, you wont give him a more of a chance because you think of him as a bluenose. But no you wont do that because from day one you didnt want him and barring an absolutely miraculous set of results you were going to find every other reason under the sun to justify why he shouldnt be given a chance to do good for us.
Erm, no.
I'm one of his biggest critics and I really couldn't care less who we got him from. The issue was he was a manager who got a team relegated. They stuck with him and he completely rebuild the squad (on similar funds to what many believe he can expect to see here) only to see them get relegated again having scored barely more than a goal a game for his entire time at the club.
He is then sending emails saying he's not defensive as if by telling us he wants to play exciting football we're suddenly going to forgive the fact that we're the worst side to watch in the league.
Regarding players the point I was trying to make is that, at some point in their career a manager has made most of this squad play at a pretty high standard. To have so many of them woefully short of confidence at the same time has got to be a consequence of poor management and coaching. If you don't think this is something the coaches and manager should be working to resolve then we might as well get rid of the lot of them and let the team manage itself because the only point of coaching is to make sure the players can give their best on a saturday afternoon.
I don't mind the league position, I was very positive towards Houllier right until the end because I could see a pattern to what he was trying to achieve and a determination to remove from the squad the players that were disrupting his efforts to do make a success of it.
Even with MON I could see what he was trying to achieve and how he wanted the team to play, that he left us in the shit with players on big long contracts that no one else wants means he's rightly going to get a lot of abuse but at least there was a style about the way he was going.
The only plan I can determine for McLeish is that he wants to keep things tight early on so we have a back 4 that stay in a line regardless of whether we have the ball or not. We then have a midfield sitting in their positions and not really going looking for the ball, etc. After about 30minutes the word goes out that the players can start to express themselves and we see a little more movement, but often by this point the other team is so on top and has so much possession that we don't seem to be able to get a foot on the ball before half time. In the 2nd half we then come out and look ok most weeks but then someone makes a mistake and everything falls apart. McLeish sees this and starts acting all offended on the touchline but does nothing to change things until about 70mins where he makes the most predictable sub imaginable and nothing changes then he'll make another sub or 2 at about 80-85minutes when it's far too late for those players to do anything.
I think the bigger issue i have though is that we have players like Bannan, Fonz, Gardner (and Clark and Albrighton until recently) who need time on the pitch to show if they can be valued members of the squad or not but he's so scared to change things that none of them is getting any decent time on the pitch. When injuries forced him to pick Clark and Albrighton they came into the side and have proven they deserve to be considered full members of the squad so the talent is there.
I can accept a transition season if you can see the manager is getting a measure of all the options he has and is forming a plan of what he's going to do to make next season better but he's not doing that in my opinion. He shipped out a defensive midfielder without ever seeing him play a game and we've had a glaring hole in defensive midfield all season, surely trying Makoun in that role should've been something we looked at.
The list of things to count against him purely on what he's done since he arrived at the club far outweighs the positives. It's all well and good to say he needs time to get his own players in and build his own squad but if he gets us relegated by doing that we're going to be left in the championship with a squadful of journeymen like the blues are now. He has to earn the right to the time to rebuild the squad and on current performance he hasn't earned that right. If things improve towards the end of the season and we start to see signs that he's getting the team playing a style he wants then I'll change my opinion but what has happened so far doesn't suggest that is the case.
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The substitution of Warnock was not a tactical move, it was punishment for Warnock's errors. With ten minutes to go it was a lollipop to the crowd to give Warnock the big hook and bring on the PR stunt which is Robbie Keane. As I posted earlier Albrighton never has a so so game. He is either brilliant or a total liability and yesterday was the latter. He should have come off as soon as we were unable to continue the momentum the goal gave us. Marc's all round game was dire. His part in their goal, his crossing, his corners should have had him substituted on the hour mark and N'Zogbia brought on.
To return to the thread I think the most depressing thing about the appointment of Alex McLeish is that he is at Villa Park for the long term regardless of results on the pitch.
Using the half a season he has had in charge upon which to predicate the future I come the the very regrettable conclusion that if we do not get relegated this season we will be relegated next season.
If the second half of this season shows an upturn in his ability to get the best out of his players and equally important, the best out of himself, the future would be brighter. I suspect that we will hobble along until May much the same way has we have done since July.
I must add that my view is not anti McLeish. The problem as I have expressed on other threads is that he was not appointed for football reasons, he was appointed for financial reasons.
I think Randy Lerner was deeply hurt by the manner of O'Neill's departure and the subsequent bitter acrimony of his action against the club for constructive dismissal. Add to that the total balls up being made by the board over a replacement for Houllier with the club being ridiculed on a daily basis in the media and Randy Lerner took matters into his own hands and appointed Alex McLeish.
From that moment on I think Randy fell out of love with the Villa and said to himself that the investment was to be run like any other of his business interests.
Alex McLeish was so grateful for being rescued from the living death which was Small Heath that he will do anything for Randy Lerner.
My view was the mainstream view I believe in that I thought McLeish was the wrong manager and we should have got somebody better but like many I did console myself with the belief that because McLeish is very much Lerner's man and Lerner holds the purse strings, the owner will back his man financially. This has not transpired and every vibe coming out of the club is that we are as penniless as Everton. The sticking plaster PR move of sporting a million quid on Keane to shut the fans up, the comment that the long awaited Villa museum will only go ahead when it is "financially viable" (a museum FFS from a man who sponsored a whole lump of the National Gallery) are very telling.
All the woes of the club from the decline in playing standards which were already showing when O'Neill flounced, to the madness of appointing an old sick man to a killer job, to the balls ups of the board in having no football savvy, to bad luck (Jenas), to declining crowds, to having to use players like Emile Heskey who was a long time figure of ridicule for the bulk of the fans, to coping with a crippling wages bill racked up by O'Neill - all of this shit is laid at the manager's door.
With his limited abilities and no money to speak of Alex McLeish has done just about what we have a right to expect. If we go down he will stay because this board will say he is the perfect man to get us back in the Premiership.
Aston Villa's problems do not lie at managerial level, they are at board and ownership level. The thread should enquire whether they can take us forward.
Spot on Brian.
I wonder if the job he is being asked to do now is the one he was offered back in July last year. Also whether he is strong enough to stand up to Randy Lerner.
If the job criteria has changed and he has the courage, I could see him walking before the end of the season.
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I back McLeish 100% , and results willing and people keeping off his back, I back him long term for us to move forward.
From the outset, we had the ridiculous spectacle of `fans` wanting him sacked before he had even signed a contract and done a single days work on our behalf. All because of a stupid misguided tribalism, where some people are more concerned about rivalries with another club who should be irrelevant to us instead of what is best for the long term health of Aston Villa.
Of course now what most of the anti - Mcleish crowd say is it not his former connections but his defensive minded tactics and poor managerial ability the reasons they cannot back him. Nothing to do with him having been employed by Birmingham City. What complete bullshit !
All managers live and die by results, but dont tell me that if any other candidate for the job had been appointed and they had exactly the same set of results and performances with the same resources they would be suffering the same level of antipathy and calls for their removal.
What I see is someone with strength of character and confidence in their own ability conducting themselves with integrity in the face of unjustified abuse. Those are the sort of people I want working in our club - professionals with integrity.
Those who are so anti - Mcleish, just be honest, you wont give him a more of a chance because you think of him as a bluenose. But no you wont do that because from day one you didnt want him and barring an absolutely miraculous set of results you were going to find every other reason under the sun to justify why he shouldnt be given a chance to do good for us.
I take exception to being catagorised in this way just because I do not rate him. It is an insult to me intelligence. Just because he is a decent guy, it does not mean I have to give him latitude for not getting an acceptable level out of the resources he has and had.
As you say, it is a results business but it is also an entertainment business and supporters want to enjoy supporting their club. The one key indicator that concerned me the most about his appointment was the number of goals his teams have scored and this has been on a downward spiral since his early days at Rangers. The straight jacket on him and how he sets up teams has got tighter and tighter over the years.
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Those saying he is inherently 'defensive', he wasn't that way in Scotland. He was at Blues. Better team in a shit league he plays attacking / winning football. Shit team in a hard league he does what he has to do. Albeit the latter was with mixed results.
We are a work in progress at the moment. Personally I flit between being utterly uninspired by the present Villa team to dreaming that they might be a handy side soon. I think the equation is something like: realisation that we won't compete past about 7th divided by the fact we weren't really competing above 6th before = confusion.
I'd just like us to play with a bit of belief, passion and fearlessness. I reckon ultimately that's where McLeish will live or die as Villa manager.
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i dont think he's the man to take us forward,
but it would help if he wasnt so damned nice, he is a decent guy and handled himself with great dignity in difficult times, actually he is someone i would really wish success for because he comes over as a honest solid and sound chap and i would like to see him do well,
if he was a big mouthed tosspot or a footballing mercenary like DOL it would be far easier to say you wanted someone else
unfortunatly his football philosophy is to negative for me, and thats what really counts in the end
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I don't care where he came from either. In fact, wouldn't it be hilarious if we nicked their manager and he bought the good time back.
I'm not sure why people jump to the conclusion that his previous club is the reason he isn't wanted at Villa when his results/relegations are there for all to see.
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i dont think he's the man to take us forward,
but it would help if he wasnt so damned nice, he is a decent guy and handled himself with great dignity in difficult times, actually he is someone i would really wish success for because he comes over as a honest solid and sound chap and i would like to see him do well,
if he was a big mouthed tosspot or a footballing mercenary like DOL it would be far easier to say you wanted someone else
unfortunatly his football philosophy is to negative for me, and thats what really counts in the end
Spot on, might be a decent bloke but his approach to football is a dire defensive style, and at Villa currently, the defence is woeful. Buying Hutton was a poor decision, another 'arry winner, letting us improve Walker's progress to international status then selling us the crap player he's replaced at Spurs.
Now there are rumours about McLeish swapping Carroll for Bent! Is that going to improve things, I fail to see the logic, anymore than taking a player for 6 weeks and perhaps 7 games then leaving him on the bench until 10 minutes to go. Compare this to Moyes who played both Donovan and Gibson from the start.
We are flirting with relegation, and although slightly above where I thought we'd be now, we are looking candidates for a battle in the last few weeks of the season.
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Those saying he is inherently 'defensive', he wasn't that way in Scotland. He was at Blues. Better team in a shit league he plays attacking / winning football. Shit team in a hard league he does what he has to do.
After his peak with Rangers in 2002-2003 his teams in the next 3 seasons scored less and less goals. His bright-light football of his early years was fading fast.
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The problem with his defensive style of football, it puts pressure on our defence and exposes our weakness. I am sure a more expansive game would see less errors from our defence.
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Those saying he is inherently 'defensive', he wasn't that way in Scotland. He was at Blues. Better team in a shit league he plays attacking / winning football. Shit team in a hard league he does what he has to do. Albeit the latter was with mixed results.
Thats a fine theory which then falls down somewhat when you consider that the season they were in the championship, with a squad that was head and shoulders above most in the division, they were still dull, insipid and scored less than anyone else in the top 10 of the league.
He is a manager that employs a defensive style, all stats and facts point towards this.
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For the people who keep banging on about the relegations, it's not like he took Manu down. The Blues are a championship club who have the odd foray into the PL but cannot sustain top flight football. Getting them to 9th and winning the cup were the out of the ordinary achievements for them, the rest is what always happens.
His overall record is mixed, some good and some bad yet his critics will not accept anything that doesn't say that he's rubbish and has always been rubbish.
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For the people who keep banging on about the relegations, it's not like he took Manu down. The Blues are a championship club who have the odd foray into the PL but cannot sustain top flight football. Getting them to 9th and winning the cup were the out of the ordinary achievements for them, the rest is what always happens.
His overall record is mixed, some good and some bad yet his critics will not accept anything that doesn't say that he's rubbish and has always been rubbish.
His overall record in the Premier League IS bad. Even the year they finished 9th they bored their way to a few 1-0 wins and managed a paltry 38 goals scored all season. You were as aghast as everybody else when he was first mooted as Houllier's replacement, so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's delivering now?
He's a crap manager, and nothing he did at Blues suggested he was what he needed. He was appointed for the simple reason that Lerner needed somebody cheap and grateful for a job who wouldn't rock the boat about not having any money to spend.
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Those saying he is inherently 'defensive', he wasn't that way in Scotland. He was at Blues. Better team in a shit league he plays attacking / winning football. Shit team in a hard league he does what he has to do. Albeit the latter was with mixed results.
We are a work in progress at the moment. Personally I flit between being utterly uninspired by the present Villa team to dreaming that they might be a handy side soon. I think the equation is something like: realisation that we won't compete past about 7th divided by the fact we weren't really competing above 6th before = confusion.
I'd just like us to play with a bit of belief, passion and fearlessness. I reckon ultimately that's where McLeish will live or die as Villa manager.
That's just not true if you ignore the transition seasons where he didn't get a full season with the club, either through leaving or joining (because I can't be bothered to findthe real stats for goals for for the games he was in charge) you get the following:
94-95 - Motherwell - 50 in 36
95-96 - Motherwell - 28 in 36
96-97 - Motherwell - 44 in 36
98-99 - Hibs(scot 1st div) - 84 in 36
99-00 - Hibs - 49 in 36
00-01 - Hibs - 57 in 36
02-03 - Rangers - 101 in 36
03-04 - Rangers - 76 in 36
04-05 - Rangers - 78 in 36
05-06 - Rangers - 67 in 36
08-09 - Blues - 54 in 46
09-10 - Blues - 38 in 38
10-11 - Blues - 37 in 38
11-12 - Villa - 23 in 21
His spell with Rangers sums him up for me. He took over a side that were very attacking but that needed to shed some older players to reduce the wage bill. He did it by getting rid of the creative players and bringing in solid defensive players and the goals for column reflects that perfectly.
Even with 4 years in charge of rangers and a year in the scottish first division his record is only 1.5 goals a game. When you consider that those numbers at Rangers actually work out at 2.24 goals a game they clearly skew the stats, which is to be expected given the difference in resources celtic and rangers have compared to the rest of that league. Interestingly since it became the SPL rangers have averaged just under 83 goals a season, which means he was below average for them in 3 of his 4 seasons.
All this goes to show, despite anything he says to the contrary his record shows him as being a safety first defensive coach, which would be fine if we weren't conceding so many stupid goals, the errors in recent weeks it's tough for him to resolve but the problems from corners is totally within his remit and he's not managed to fix that (we haven't conceded from a corner for a couple of weeks but yesterday there were 2 or 3 chances where a more dangerous side would've punished us, same against swansea.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
So you're happy with the first half yesterday and thought that was good football?
Same against Swansea?
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Those saying he is inherently 'defensive', he wasn't that way in Scotland. He was at Blues. Better team in a shit league he plays attacking / winning football. Shit team in a hard league he does what he has to do. Albeit the latter was with mixed results.
The Jocks I work with say the opposite - he was dull up there too. Also, the defences you come up against there are a no-where the standard in the PL here, especially when you're one of only 2 big clubs.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
And you'll be saying that until he eventually departs, then pretend that you said he was crap all along.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
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Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
I agree, Lambert is doing well at Norwich, so too the chap at Swansea.
Remember, though, these clubs supporters don't have the expectations like at clubs like ours.
They can play with no fear, just like Blackpool last season, and because everyone expects them to go straight back down there is no pressure.
I just wonder how they would cope at a club where to finish below 8th is deemed failure, just as some supporters of our club do.
That would describe SHA under AM, I wonder where their performances were?
Last season when the won a cup? I think that's where there performances were.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
And you'll be saying that until he eventually departs, then pretend that you said he was crap all along.
No I won't, but given hoe each manager gets rubbished by you at shorter and shorter intervals you should start slagging off every manager in the world now just in case one of them gets appointed here.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
Both managers have been allowed to bring in the players they want, I doubt either would get much different from our present squad.
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Paul Lambert is our man. Young , hungry, innovative playing modern day football.
I agree, Lambert is doing well at Norwich, so too the chap at Swansea.
Remember, though, these clubs supporters don't have the expectations like at clubs like ours.
They can play with no fear, just like Blackpool last season, and because everyone expects them to go straight back down there is no pressure.
I just wonder how they would cope at a club where to finish below 8th is deemed failure, just as some supporters of our club do.
Half the problem is Villa fans expecting everything to be great instantly. For example, can you imagine if Brendan Rogers came and managed Villa? By the time the ball had gone from defender to midfielder to defender to full-back to midfielder to defe..."GET THE FUCKING THING FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" No patience.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
And you'll be saying that until he eventually departs, then pretend that you said he was crap all along.
No I won't, but given hoe each manager gets rubbished by you at shorter and shorter intervals you should start slagging off every manager in the world now just in case one of them gets appointed here.
I don't like crap football. You know full well that if we appointed Trevor Francis with Barry Fry as his assistant and they took us down, you'd still be there with your ridiculous Chris Smith schtick. You believe that you've built an internet persona and nothing with will divert you from that.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
And you'll be saying that until he eventually departs, then pretend that you said he was crap all along.
No I won't, but given hoe each manager gets rubbished by you at shorter and shorter intervals you should start slagging off every manager in the world now just in case one of them gets appointed here.
I don't like crap football. You know full well that if we appointed Trevor Francis with Barry Fry as his assistant and they took us down, you'd still be there with your ridiculous Chris Smith schtick. You believe that you've built an internet persona and nothing with will divert you from that.
Out of interest, who was the last Villa manager you was impressed with?
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
You'll recall that when he was appointed I said I'd give him a chance and whereas many of you had made up your minds after 6 games I'm still prepared to give him time.
And you'll be saying that until he eventually departs, then pretend that you said he was crap all along.
No I won't, but given hoe each manager gets rubbished by you at shorter and shorter intervals you should start slagging off every manager in the world now just in case one of them gets appointed here.
I don't like crap football. You know full well that if we appointed Trevor Francis with Barry Fry as his assistant and they took us down, you'd still be there with your ridiculous Chris Smith schtick. You believe that you've built an internet persona and nothing with will divert you from that.
Out of interest, who was the last Villa manager you was impressed with?
Martin O'Neill, for the first couple of years or so. I then thought that he'd taken us as far as he could, and had wasted a fortune in doing so. I wrongly though, thought that Lerner would pick somebody better when he left.
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As I said on the Everton post match thread I seriously can see us going down. Defensively we are shocking. Not one defender is steady. No real unit to the midfield. We have to start playing Gardner along side Herd with Clark in the team no matter what. Massive changes have to be made in defence if we manage to stay up in the summer. At this moment I would sacrifice Bent to buy 2/3 good defenders. I have a soft spot for Big Eck but not enough to see were being dragged down.
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Thats ace
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That's brilliant.
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Now Swansea are reckoned to play better football than Villa and have a higher league position. How bad does it need to get before we all get really annoyed?
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As I said on the Everton post match thread I seriously can see us going down. Defensively we are shocking. Not one defender is steady. No real unit to the midfield. We have to start playing Gardner along side Herd with Clark in the team no matter what. Massive changes have to be made in defence if we manage to stay up in the summer. At this moment I would sacrifice Bent to buy 2/3 good defenders. I have a soft spot for Big Eck but not enough to see were being dragged down.
So can I
We look very much like Newcastle in the season they went down.
It's all very well playing ten or fifteen minutes of decent stuff here and there, but we don't win anything like enough football matches.
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One thing I will say is that we quite clearly need more options in the side, and especially in the defence.
Lerner is clearly not going to give McLeish the backing he needs there until he moves people on. It is very difficult to do any business at all in January, but when you have to sell to buy, it is even harder.
In that sense, he's on to a loser. Relying on this defence for the rest of the season scares me to death, and if the chairman thinks it's going to be alright, that scares me even more.
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Would you sacrifice Bent for say 18 mill though? Im not just saying it I really can see us getting proper dragged into a relegation battle.
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No. I can't.
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so why pretend that what everybody (including you) feared back then, ie crap football and lack of goals, isn't exactly what he's
We're not seeing " crap football". A lot of what we've seen over the last half dozen games or so has been pretty good, it's only the people who have written their post match thoughts before kick off who are saying otherwise.
"A lot"?
Really? Arsenal was the best display we've put together, but really, to say it is a lot is stretching it somewhat.
Also, is "people who have made their mind up before kick off" the new "it's because he's a former blues manager"?
You only needed to take one look around Villa Park yesterday to gauge the opinion of the majority of fans as to the style and quality of football we play.
Personally, I don't give the first shit that he managed Blues. If we'd taken over a superb manager from them, I'd consider it a bonus. I don't even dislike the guy, he comes across as very personable and likeable (far more so than O'Neill, even). I'm happy to say when I think we've played well or he's got things right (Arsenal, despite us losing).
The problem is, unless you're arguing from a fixed standpoint of "I'll argue against the blatantly obvious", it is very hard to suggest we're anything other than a poor side, putting together deeply unsatisfactory performances and results.
We've lost 4 of our last 5 home games - not won any of them - and scored a total of two goals in the process. That's the kind of form and downward momentum that gets managers sacked, and for good reason.
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He is a poor manager and will NOT take us forward. End of.
My toughts exactly. And judging by the way he did not motivate Birmingham towards the end of last season I really hope we are not too close to the bottom three towards the end of the season. AM is a very poor manager.
How much closer to the bottom three? We're only two defeats away now and have most of the clubs below us to play between now and March!
To me, we are in the same situation as Blackburn. We have an invisible board - do they have a vison? A plan? Do they even care? What are their intentions long-term? The main difference is that Steve Kean is getting the 110% out of his players, and McLeish isn't, not even close. Could you see us beating Fulham with ten men? Honestly? Add that to McLeish's record of 'relegation specialist' and come up with your own conclusion. Anyone thinking that we are 'too good to go down' this season should have a long, hard think about it! So, it's a resounding 'no' for me, he isn't, but....
....as Brian Green posted earlier in this thread, the real question, as with Blackburn, is does the board have the ability or even the desire to take us forward? And if not, what then?
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"We realise that our greatest asset is the people who work here. Each one is absolutely fundamental to the company's continued success in providing superior customer service, day in, day out" Charles Krulak, chairman and CEO of MBNA International Bank.
How times change!!!!!!!
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Now Swansea are reckoned to play better football than Villa and have a higher league position. How bad does it need to get before we all get really annoyed?
Not just 'reckoned', they actually do! Enough said!
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Would you sacrifice Bent for say 18 mill though? Im not just saying it I really can see us getting proper dragged into a relegation battle.
Not 18ML but if someone came in with perhaps that kind of cash and a player we wanted and needed, go for it, and use the cash to get other players in.
We lose to Wolves the 2 teams below us are very close point wise, we drop to 15th/14th that relegation territory for me, anything can happen.
And anybody that watched the Swansea game today will have seen just how you can shape extremely ordinary players into a team and make them play out of there skin with the right guidance, superb performance.
If AM moulds Villa and motivates the lads half as good as that when we meet Arsenal in the cup, I'll be the first one on here to congratulate him for doing so.
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"We realise that our greatest asset is the people who work here. Each one is absolutely fundamental to the company's continued success in providing superior customer service, day in, day out" Charles Krulak, chairman and CEO of MBNA International Bank.
How times change!!!!!!!
The fact that MBNA are allegedly in big financial problems would probably go some way to explain why he's vanished of the scene.
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Plus he's had a new initiative to lead.
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"We realise that our greatest asset is the people who work here. Each one is absolutely fundamental to the company's continued success in providing superior customer service, day in, day out" Charles Krulak, chairman and CEO of MBNA International Bank.
How times change!!!!!!!
The fact that MBNA are allegedly in big financial problems would probably go some way to explain why he's vanished of the scene.
He hasn't had anything to do with MBNA for several years now.
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"We realise that our greatest asset is the people who work here. Each one is absolutely fundamental to the company's continued success in providing superior customer service, day in, day out" Charles Krulak, chairman and CEO of MBNA International Bank.
How times change!!!!!!!
The fact that MBNA are allegedly in big financial problems would probably go some way to explain why he's vanished of the scene.
He hasn't had anything to do with MBNA for several years now.
Just as well then.
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I maintain that only Wigan and Bolton are worse than us. Blackburn have balls something we have lacked for years! Sunderland Wolves and The Baggies will fight their way out of it. Fulham? abit like us soft as shit at the back. Any fan who thinks we couldnt end up in a load of shite is deluding themselves. Weve got a soft centre which is why our home form is so criminally bad.
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Or we've won 2 of our last 3 away games and not lost any of them.
It's the attempt to paint things as worse than they are to win an internet argument that is the most annoying thing about this site. To ignore anything that doesn't suit the McLeish is shit and everything is his fault stance. We've put in decent performances, we've defended well in some games, we've scored three goals at Chelsea and he's ad to deal with losing more than half of the first team from last season yet all we hear from certain sections, because they cannot allow anything to interfere with their absolute certainty, is that he got Blues relegated.
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Chris, just try and experience the vitriol on VT if you think it is bad on here.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
Both managers have been allowed to bring in the players they want, I doubt either would get much different from our present squad.
Disagree, our squad is much stonger on paper than Swansea and Newcastle. Ask Pardew if he got the palyers he wanted after the cash they got from Carroll. This season, I've lost count of people asking me why Villa are so shit with the players we have.....
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"We realise that our greatest asset is the people who work here. Each one is absolutely fundamental to the company's continued success in providing superior customer service, day in, day out" Charles Krulak, chairman and CEO of MBNA International Bank.
How times change!!!!!!!
The fact that MBNA are allegedly in big financial problems would probably go some way to explain why he's vanished of the scene.
He hasn't had anything to do with MBNA for several years now.
Just as well then.
So the latest way to get in some criticism of the club is that a man who no longer is connected with Villa, said years ago of a company that is nothing to do with Villa that customer service was important. Wow, that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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I think the man is a legend for relegating them twice so that has no bearing on my view today! I maintain that unless the defence is sorted out were in the shit. I thought him being defence minded we would be ok with that side of things. I thought he would see through Collins and Dunne and maybe work on Warnock but instead we have four jokers every game! He must see it!
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I maintain that only Wigan and Bolton are worse than us. Blackburn have balls something we have lacked for years! Sunderland Wolves and The Baggies will fight their way out of it. Fulham? abit like us soft as shit at the back. Any fan who thinks we couldnt end up in a load of shite is deluding themselves. Weve got a soft centre which is why our home form is so criminally bad.
Think there is real danger of losing to Wolves, QPR are a strange one for me, the only chance they have is to buy there way out the problem, I would reiterate the comment made by Robbie Savage in that Villa could be the surprise package, I think there are 7 maybe 8 teams, Villa included that could get relegated, our problem is that we have a manger who's track record in the Prem shows that when he's in a tight corner and in difficulty simply doesn't know how to get out of it, in other words if we get down as low as 16th and below we have real problems IMO.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
Both managers have been allowed to bring in the players they want, I doubt either would get much different from our present squad.
Ask Pardew if he got the palyers he wanted after the cash they got from Carroll.
To be fair, whoever wanted Ba and Cabaye for a combined 4 million quid or 1/8th of an Andy Carroll if you prefer, they didn't half do well with that one!
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The point being made was superior customer service. Randy, the General and PF were all associated with MBNA. If they were so commited to the customer then what's the change? We are the customer and what is being served up is far from superior. Not seeing our team win at home since November 5th is disgraceful!!!! The big Eck states: " we have played three of the elite clubs" Well big Eck we are an elite club not some two bob club from Small Heath!
There are three constants in life....death, change and taxes. It is certainly taxing to watch our great club under this idiot. If Randy and PF don't change it will be the death of our great club as a force in Premier League football.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
Both managers have been allowed to bring in the players they want, I doubt either would get much different from our present squad.
Disagree, our squad is much stonger on paper than Swansea and Newcastle. Ask Pardew if he got the palyers he wanted after the cash they got from Carroll. This season, I've lost count of people asking me why Villa are so shit with the players we have.....
I disagree, we're reliant on kids, have no balance to the squad and have little strength in depth. We're in the position of trying to make a team out of a collection of individuals who were not bought to a specific plan.
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Newcastle's team weren't bought to a specific plan, either.
They lost their three best players (Carroll, Nolan and Barton), and the manager was given very little of even the Carroll money to get players in.
Pardew was got them playing, that's the difference. McLeish has talked about getting us playing, but only managed to fashion a style of play that confirms every suspicion we (most people) had about him.
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OK, let's look at Newcastle or Swansea - 2 teams IMO that have poorer squads than us, but they play better football, are picking up results against top opposition and are higher in the league.
AMC may be a slow burner, trying to get it right until it clicks, but his past record doesn't indicate so. I fear this is as good as it gets i.e. shit.
Spot on. Both represent both ends of the spectrum as where Villa could be. Good style of football without really taking the league by storm or good results playing much more direct football with a poor run of results thrown in.
Both managers have been allowed to bring in the players they want, I doubt either would get much different from our present squad.
Disagree, our squad is much stonger on paper than Swansea and Newcastle. Ask Pardew if he got the palyers he wanted after the cash they got from Carroll. This season, I've lost count of people asking me why Villa are so shit with the players we have.....
I disagree, we're reliant on kids, have no balance to the squad and have little strength in depth. We're in the position of trying to make a team out of a collection of individuals who were not bought to a specific plan.
Isn't that the job of a manager then Chris?
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The point being made was superior customer service. Randy, the General and PF were all associated with MBNA. If they were so commited to the customer then what's the change? We are the customer and what is being served up is far from superior. Not seeing our team win at home since November 5th is disgraceful!!!! The big Eck states: " we have played three of the elite clubs" Well big Eck we are an elite club not some two bob club from Small Heath!
There are three constants in life....death, change and taxes. It is certainly taxing to watch our great club under this idiot. If Randy and PF don't change it will be the death of our great club as a force in Premier League football.
With all due respect, if you think of us as an 'elite club', at least in the sense that McLeish meant as one with the budget and squad to be pushing for the league and Champions League, then you are bound to be very disappointed because we aren't.
If you mean 'a great club' then certainly we are. But that's not what McLeish was talking about is it, which you knew full well. Still, it allowed you to reference his previous club again.
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I refer the honourable gentleman to my sig.
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I dont get to many games, ive probably been to half of our home games this season. but after the baggies I said id had enough and would not be going to any more untill there was a substantial change, I just got to the point where I hadnt enjoyed it all season. its an expensive day out so I expect to be entertained which i dont think i have been. In fact, the only game ive been to where i have felt ive received value for money was the blackburn game which seems a long time ago now. Ive been embarrased a couple of times when taking people from work that have never been to villa park because we have been so appalling.
My point is this: Im pissed off that Alex Mcleish has made me fall out of love with something that has been a major part in my life for 20years. BUT he is carrying out his remit. He probably will keep us up, we may even scrape top 10, but its not going to be fun or pretty. The constraints he is working under make anything else unrealistic and those calling for lambert or rodgers need to realise that they probably wouldnt do much better. This league is too competative to change things drastically too soon as we found out with Houllier and our talented kids are not good enough to keep us up.
I look at the state of the club when Randy came in and compare that to now, despite the millions thrown at it we are no better off, maybe even worse.
One of the empty seats on saturday should have been mine but wasnt and it wont be untill this club gets its vision back. a lack of experience of successfully running a football club at the highest level has bitten Randy on his arse...what we need is someone like GT installing at board level
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Newcastle's team weren't bought to a specific plan, either.
They lost their three best players (Carroll, Nolan and Barton), and the manager was given very little of even the Carroll money to get players in.
Pardew was got them playing, that's the difference. McLeish has talked about getting us playing, but only managed to fashion a style of play that confirms every suspicion we (most people) had about him.
Pardew has had half a season longer in which to assess what he needed and what he didn't.
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The people calling for Rodgers or Lambert, just a question, would either of them come to Villa right now? McLeish isn't the man, but until the board start talking we'll not attract anyone better in my view.
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Newcastle's team weren't bought to a specific plan, either.
They lost their three best players (Carroll, Nolan and Barton), and the manager was given very little of even the Carroll money to get players in.
Pardew was got them playing, that's the difference. McLeish has talked about getting us playing, but only managed to fashion a style of play that confirms every suspicion we (most people) had about him.
Pardew has had half a season longer in which to assess what he needed and what he didn't.
"Pardew has been there half a season longer" is a pretty desperate fall back argument when comparing the two, isn't it?
Ashley sold Pardew's best players from under him and gave him a fraction of the money they earned to do something with. I wouldn't expect McLeish to necessarily have got better results than Pardew, but you'd at least expect to see some indication of where the team is going.
We've had the odd fifteen minutes here and there of better football, but that's nothing like enough.
Regardless of the background of our manager, we're not playing well, we're not getting results, and the confidence is being sucked out of the club (and fans) more and more.
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I refer the honourable gentleman to my sig.
And your signature is absolutely correct and a fine addition to each and every post you make sir.
But sadly, in a Premier League dominated by those with huge bank balances, greatness does not mean trophies, and trophies do not mean greatness.
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Which is a sad state of affairs. Modern football is sh*t. Thanks.
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Which is a sad state of affairs. Modern football is sh*t. Thanks.
It is, isn't it? Sorry, I've depressed myself now as well. I'm going for a burger and a pint to cheer myself up.
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Yes, very much so.
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Never have truer words been spoken! Enjoy the pint and burger.
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"we're reliant on kids"
An exaggeration Chris. How many of the team on sat were 'kids'.... 2 I reckon. Anyway you can spin it, that squad should be performing better, either by common sense or by comparing other teams in the PL.
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and he's ad to deal with losing more than half of the first team from last season
"It's the attempt to paint things as worse than they are to win an internet argument" - your words
The 6 you constantly refer to were part of the squad and not "more than half the team". You can't have it both ways, Chris.
He was given money to replace some of them. Friedal replaced with an equivalent and with more 'shelf-life' but he has wasted money on Hutton and overspent on N'Zogbia when you consider other shortcomings of the team. The big loss has been A Young.
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and he's ad to deal with losing more than half of the first team from last season
"It's the attempt to paint things as worse than they are to win an internet argument" - your words
The 6 you constantly refer to were part of the squad and not "more than half the team". You can't have it both ways, Chris.
He was given money to replace some of them. Friedal replaced with an equivalent and with more 'shelf-life' but he has wasted money on Hutton and overspent on N'Zogbia when you consider other shortcomings of the team. The big loss has been A Young.
Friedel, Walker, Young (L), Reo Coker, Downing and Young (A) were all regular starters last season, it's not spin it is a fact.
That's half the defence and three quarters of the midfield. Any manager taking over in similar circumstances would have struggled but because it's McLeish no mitigation is allowed and everything as to be his fault.
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Chris. I have always admired your stand on all things Villa. I dont post as often as I would like but I think not using the kids is the problem not the cause. Herd, Lichai, Clark. Bannan, Albrighton Gardner The Fonz and Weimann should be part of every squad. We have no money we have no plan so go with the Youth. Something we can identify with. from Bryan Jones to Tony McAndrew to Sid these are the people I trust down there I have had enough of the idiots at the back picking up obscene wages without caring a shit for us. Have a plan! we havent got a plan A let alone a plan B. Go with the youth at least the fans would be on side.
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I was going to ask who the other Walker was, but he's deleted him, thought we'd dipped into the transfer market and flogged him while i'd dropped of.
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Or we've won 2 of our last 3 away games and not lost any of them.
It's the attempt to paint things as worse than they are to win an internet argument that is the most annoying thing about this site. To ignore anything that doesn't suit the McLeish is shit and everything is his fault stance. We've put in decent performances, we've defended well in some games, we've scored three goals at Chelsea and he's ad to deal with losing more than half of the first team from last season yet all we hear from certain sections, because they cannot allow anything to interfere with their absolute certainty, is that he got Blues relegated.
We're 13th in the league, not enough points away from a relegation scrap, playing poor football and are scoring a whisker above a goal a game. Exactly the same as McLeish did at Blues that saw them relegated twice.
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Hoppo, my impression is that they're giving them all a chance this season to see which have a long term future. So far I'd say only Clark and Herd get an unequivocal yes. Bannan has been good in patches but can go missing. Gardner is now being eased through and will surely get more opportunities.
I think due to the number of games he's already played Albrighton is a step ahead but I'm not as convinced about him as many of you are, he's a decent enough player but his decision making is suspect although that can improve with experience.
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I was going to ask who the other Walker was, but he's deleted him, thought we'd dipped into the transfer market and flogged him while i'd dropped of.
I put two Walkers and only one Young in the first version.
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and he's ad to deal with losing more than half of the first team from last season
"It's the attempt to paint things as worse than they are to win an internet argument" - your words
The 6 you constantly refer to were part of the squad and not "more than half the team". You can't have it both ways, Chris.
He was given money to replace some of them. Friedal replaced with an equivalent and with more 'shelf-life' but he has wasted money on Hutton and overspent on N'Zogbia when you consider other shortcomings of the team. The big loss has been A Young.
Friedel, Walker, Young (L), Reo Coker, Downing and Young (A) were all regular starters last season, it's not spin it is a fact.
That's half the defence and three quarters of the midfield. Any manager taking over in similar circumstances would have struggled but because it's McLeish no mitigation is allowed and everything as to be his fault.
Walker and L Young played 38 games together, so other players played the other half. Reo-Coker played because he was preferred by Houllier to other players. McLeish preferred to let him go. Refer to my previous comments on the others.
You keep on making it sound (for effect) that he was forced into getting rid of them and not having the chance to replace them. Also do not forget that Bent was added In January because Lerner knew that he would be losing A Young.
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Look at the team sheets for the second part of the season, the six players I mentioned featured more often than not. I'm not adding anything for effect, I'm describing what happened. It doesn't really matter how or why, the point i'm making that any new manager coming in was already in a difficult position and that anyone but McLeish would have been given some leeway because if it.
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Off to watch Sherlock might get in touch with Dr Watson to see if they can find out how the hell our back four are all internationals...
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I think with the exception of Ash Young and Downing and some would question Downing, AM has spent money to cover, the point has to if, he's got the right players in remains to be seen, but certainly his replacement of Friedal in the fact we now have Given IMO is a better option, hell, Given has kept us in more than one game this season including the Everton game without which we'd already be in the relegation zone.
Hutton, N'Zogbia, Bannan (now established) Albrighton, now Clark coming back on the scene and in actual fact with the reborn Stephen Ireland its like we have just got in a new top player, so other than Ash I'm utterly convinced we have a good enough squad and way better than Swansea, as to them playing as a unit, well that relies on other things.
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Look at the team sheets for the second part of the season, the six players I mentioned featured more often than not. I'm not adding anything for effect, I'm describing what happened. It doesn't really matter how or why, the point i'm making that any new manager coming in was already in a difficult position and that anyone but McLeish would have been given some leeway because if it.
Of course the team is weaker for the loss of those players, but an important point is that those players never played under McLeish, so it's not like he really knows what he's lost. He's still got a team full of players who are more than good enough to be playing better and scoring more goals than we are at present. And of course, two of the players who have been amongst our most disappointing performers he bought himself, ie N'Zogbia and Hutton.
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It dose'nt really matter who our manager is, with the players we have available, we should be creating more chances, let alone trying to stop a losing run at home.
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Two goals at home since Norwich at the start of November.
Simply not good enough.
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I accept that we're not scoring enough goals, but that's through not making the most of our chances, not through sitting back and clinging on.
Well it is hard to make the most of one or two chances created on target in most matches.
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His failure to sort out the defence is his problem, one reason we are not playing better and scoring more goals is because Hutton and Collins keep giving the ball away, If they are available they play regardless of form.
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In these McLeish debates the assumption is made by most parties that there are only two mind sets. You are either supportive of McLeish and want him to do well or anti McLeish because you expect him to fail. The pro McLeish faction says "we like him despite his previous" the anti McLeish faction says "we do not like him because of his previous".
There is at least one other camp including the one I inhabit. Our gospel is "I want McLeish do brilliantly well for us because it would so piss off Small Heath" all else is just sound and fury.
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There is at least one other camp including the one I inhabit. Our gospel is "I want McLeish do brilliantly well for us because it would so piss off Small Heath" all else is just sound and fury.
and this is the classic "travelling in hope" camp where most fotball fans reside!
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I want McLeish to do well because that would mean Villa doing well. However I remain convinced that he has no chance. Firstly because he's a rubbish manager, and secondly because he's employed by a crap owner who won't back him, thus taking away the only slender chance that McLeish has of being successful here. His past employment with that lot down the road is of no interest to me whatsoever, as I'm getting reasonably bored of reiterating.
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I am with Risso, his previous allegiance means nothing to me, I allways want Villa to win. I just dont believe based on his track record and what I have seen is that he is the right manager for us.
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It dose'nt really matter who our manager is, with the players we have available, we should be creating more chances, let alone trying to stop a losing run at home.
Absolutely.
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If the Internet had been around in 1974 I wonder what would have been the reaction on H&V to the Villa taking on a dour taciturn manager who wasn't noted for his scintillating style of football. And his only claims to fame were losing two consecutive League Cup finals with two different teams and just escaping relegation with one of them.
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Fuck, I'd take Satan himself as Villa manager if it meant we won something. And all McLeish is, is an ex-nose. But with no money and shit for brains we ain't going to win fuck all.
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It dose'nt really matter who our manager is, with the players we have available, we should be creating more chances, let alone trying to stop a losing run at home.
Absolutely.
This is what I was trying to get at as well, our squad is comfortably midtable in the premier league, our performances at home are relegation form. However you break it down after that the root cause is something either the manager is or isn't doing. He is responsible for buying Hutton for example. He also isn't willing to drop Warnock despite the fact that he's put in some of the most abject performances I've ever seen over the last 5-6 games.
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If the Internet had been around in 1974 I wonder what would have been the reaction on H&V to the Villa taking on a dour taciturn manager who wasn't noted for his scintillating style of football. And his only claims to fame were losing two consecutive League Cup finals with two different teams and just escaping relegation with one of them.
What? You mean taking a First Division manager whilst we are in the second division? Also the cup losses just meant he could be third time lucky with us.
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I am with Risso, his previous allegiance means nothing to me, I allways want Villa to win. I just dont believe based on his track record and what I have seen is that he is the right manager for us.
I think it was Paulie who said a while back that if we had snared a promising up and coming player off them (or even the likes of Foster and Dann) we'd have been chuffed. Same goes if we'd taken a highly rated or promising manager.
And that's exactly where I am. If anything, the connection to that lot would have made it even sweeter.
But we took a manager who would have struggled to get another job in the Premiership, yet alone a job as big as the Villa. There's the difference.
Now he's here he needs to be backed though. Or given enough rope. Whichever way you care to look at it.
As per Risso, my real concern is the cast of characters higher up the foodchain than McLeish.
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Think Swansea would swop managers if we threw Heskey in as a sweetener?
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As sweetners go, that's like one giant turd in the punchbowl.
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It dose'nt really matter who our manager is, with the players we have available, we should be creating more chances, let alone trying to stop a losing run at home.
Absolutely.
This is what I was trying to get at as well, our squad is comfortably midtable in the premier league, our performances at home are relegation form. However you break it down after that the root cause is something either the manager is or isn't doing. He is responsible for buying Hutton for example. He also isn't willing to drop Warnock despite the fact that he's put in some of the most abject performances I've ever seen over the last 5-6 games.
Comfortably mid-table? Jesus! Take the claret and blue tinted specs off, we're down at the shit end and scrapping (poorly) for life!
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He said our squad is comfortably mid table, James, not that we are.
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He said our squad is comfortably mid table [quality], James, not that we are.
Bit of square bracketage required there I feel.
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If the Internet had been around in 1974 I wonder what would have been the reaction on H&V to the Villa taking on a dour taciturn manager who wasn't noted for his scintillating style of football. And his only claims to fame were losing two consecutive League Cup finals with two different teams and just escaping relegation with one of them.
As we were a 2nd division club at the time and we were looking as though we were losing momentum after promotion from the 3rd division and narrowly missing promotion in successive seasons to the 1st, we were looking for a manager with the right credentials to take us up to the 1st division.
Saunders fitted the bill as he had taken Norwich up as champions two years before and reached the League Cup final with them before going to Man City. They themselves were in the 1st division and saw something in Saunders that they believed could take them higher. It didn't work out there as he fell out with the board, although reaching the League Cup final again.
At the time he looked the ideal manager considering our standing and how right we were. From when he got the side to click in the 2nd half of the first season and for the next 3-4 years, it was some of the best attacking football I have seen the Villa play.
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If the Internet had been around in 1974 I wonder what would have been the reaction on H&V to the Villa taking on a dour taciturn manager who wasn't noted for his scintillating style of football. And his only claims to fame were losing two consecutive League Cup finals with two different teams and just escaping relegation with one of them.
As we were a 2nd division club at the time and we were looking as though we were losing momentum after promotion from the 3rd division and narrowly missing promotion in successive seasons to the 1st, we were looking for a manager with the right credentials to take us up to the 1st division.
Saunders fitted the bill as he had taken Norwich up as champions two years before and reached the League Cup final with them before going to Man City. They themselves were in the 1st division and saw something in Saunders that they believed could take them higher. It didn't work out there as he fell out with the board, although reaching the League Cup final again.
At the time he looked the ideal manager considering our standing and how right we were. From when he got the side to click in the 2nd half of the first season and for the next 3-4 years, it was some of the best attacking football I have seen the Villa play.
So absolutely no parallels with the current situation at all then!
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I apologise if people misread my post, as had been mentioned I meant that the squad is comfortable balanced enough and strong enough to maintain midtable. Even with one of the worst injury records I've ever seen we finished 9th last season, with a lot of the players we were forced to use then now much more experienced and capable of filling in.
The players that have left since are:
Friedel - replaced with a better keeper in Given
Reo-coker - Replaced with Jenas who had massive injury problems and was a huge risk
Walker - McLeish chose and purchased a replacement in Hutton
Downing - Replaced with Nzogbia who has been used incorrectly all season and has failed to integrate with the squad
Young (L) - Effectively replaced with Warnock who was dumped out of the side by houllier, should've been replaced properly
Young (A) - Effectively replaced with Ireland who was nothing more than a bit part player.
Looking through those the 3 that we've completely failed with are walker, luke young and reo-coker. 2 of those McLeish chose replacements for, 1 was a broken waste of space that has cost well over £1m for what amounts to less than 2 hours of football and the other is replaced with 1 half of the comedy duo that's filling our fullback spots. The 3rd really missed player was replaced in the team by an existing player who Houllier had written off and who would've left in the summer but McLeish clearly thought was good enough to stick with, instead buying a young kid to come in as backup.
As a group what we have now is weaker but 4 of them were replaced with players bought in by McLeish so he has to take a big chunk of responibility for that but even so, if Houllier got 9th with a never ending list of injuries and a slightly stronger squad the current squad has got to be comfortably good enough for mid-table. That we look like we could be sucked into the battle (without the injury excuse to fall back on this year) is testament to the fact that he has failed to get the most of the players at his disposal.
Given this why should we trust him to spend any more money?
I can only hope the board are big enough to admit they made a mistake and get rid before he causes lasting damage to the club, give him no money this window and pray he keeps us up then replace before the euro's with a decent manager and a full pre-season to get some shape to the side.
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I'd agree with Mr Green. You really have to look at the performance of the executive rather than the manager to understand why we are where we are. And not just this season/last season either.
The only fair way to judge McLeish is by the objectives he was given. Implement the cut in wages (presumably without getting relegated), get more out of what we have and make more of the academy.
Thus far he is on course with the first, albeit in a manner that invites further instructions for cuts, and has fallen short in the other two.
His inability to even get as much out of Bent as before and the belated introduction of Clark have been the biggest negatives for me. I'd have expected more game time for Gardner too.
All he's really done so far is learn a little (painfully) of what we had already discovered (painfully) last year. There are a number of seriously overpaid plodders on the books.
If anything, transfer dealings, permanent and loan, have added to that number.
I don't think McLeish was appointed to take us forward. More to tread water whilst big contracts were run down, without further rot setting in. He's not a disaster, but he could have done a lot better.
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I think that's a very subjective analysis, Steve.
Singling out Clark but not mentioning Herd, talking about Bent's form but not Gabby's improvement on last year and no mention of doing something that Houllier failed to do and making a player out of Ireland.
There are glaring gaps in the squad which are not his fault and until he's given the opportunity to shape it how he wants we are not going to be able to properly judge him.
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Before Bent scored on Saturday, the bloke next to me said 'Bent is rubbish, get him off'. After he had scored he said 'told you he would score, brilliant'. When you have that sort of analysis what chance do we stand?
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I think that's a very subjective analysis, Steve.
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Of course it's subjective Chris. I'm desperately trying to be a proper supporter.
Both Herd and Clark have found themselves in the team of necessity rather than any apparent plan to phase in ex academy players.
The upturn in Ireland's contribution for the last few games is in McLeishes favour, but it's worth eff all when our biggest investment and most likely deliverer of points looks like a fish out of water game in, game out.
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I don't think that's fair, we've used a number of the youngsters this season but you can't just throw them all in at the same time.
As for Bent, since his return from injury he's played two and a quarter league games and scored twice, giving him seven in all. Not brilliant but not bad either and suggests that he is benefitting from the improvements we're seeing in general performances. Before anyone does some brilliant piece of micro analysis and dazzles us with stats I'm saying that since the Bolton game there has been more good than bad not that we're suddenly playing like world beaters.
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I don't think that's fair, we've used a number of the youngsters this season but you can't just throw them all in at the same time.
As for Bent, since his return from injury he's played two and a quarter league games and scored twice, giving him seven in all. Not brilliant but not bad either and suggests that he is benefitting from the improvements we're seeing in general performances. Before anyone does some brilliant piece of micro analysis and dazzles us with stats I'm saying that since the Bolton game there has been more good than bad not that we're suddenly playing like world beaters.
The facts just don't back that up Chris, In that time we've had a very good result against chelsea and played reasonably well against Arsenal nothing else stands out as great and the results are on a par with earlier in the season.
As for the kids do you think it's right to bring Heskey on for the last half an hour when we need a goal rather than bring on Fonz or Weimann?
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I'd agree with Mr Green. You really have to look at the performance of the executive rather than the manager to understand why we are where we are. And not just this season/last season either.
The only fair way to judge McLeish is by the objectives he was given. Implement the cut in wages (presumably without getting relegated), get more out of what we have and make more of the academy.
Thus far he is on course with the first, albeit in a manner that invites further instructions for cuts, and has fallen short in the other two.
His inability to even get as much out of Bent as before and the belated introduction of Clark have been the biggest negatives for me. I'd have expected more game time for Gardner too.
All he's really done so far is learn a little (painfully) of what we had already discovered (painfully) last year. There are a number of seriously overpaid plodders on the books.
If anything, transfer dealings, permanent and loan, have added to that number.
I don't think McLeish was appointed to take us forward. More to tread water whilst big contracts were run down, without further rot setting in. He's not a disaster, but he could have done a lot better.
Steve, I don't disagree with a word that you say. I think that he was given a very clear brief by the board and given the limitation he is under, he is executing it reasonably well, albeit not with the flair that we have come to expect.
We have simply got to remove the chaff out of the club before we can move forward again. Clearly Randy has made it very clear that until this is done, there will be no further major spending.
It is a depressing, but unfortunately necessary period that we have to go through as we chased the dream under MON, missed out on it and are now reaping the consequences.
Like every other supporter I hate where we are right now, but I have to be pragmatic and accept that it is the result of chasing an ultimately impossible dream.
I can't help wondering though, if we'd decided to set our sights lower and put out a full strength team in Moscow where we'd be right now
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I don't think that's fair, we've used a number of the youngsters this season but you can't just throw them all in at the same time.
As for Bent, since his return from injury he's played two and a quarter league games and scored twice, giving him seven in all. Not brilliant but not bad either and suggests that he is benefitting from the improvements we're seeing in general performances. Before anyone does some brilliant piece of micro analysis and dazzles us with stats I'm saying that since the Bolton game there has been more good than bad not that we're suddenly playing like world beaters.
The facts just don't back that up Chris, In that time we've had a very good result against chelsea and played reasonably well against Arsenal nothing else stands out as great and the results are on a par with earlier in the season.
As for the kids do you think it's right to bring Heskey on for the last half an hour when we need a goal rather than bring on Fonz or Weimann?
Stoke was a good performance, Swansea and Everton we played well for parts of the game and we did a good job at Bristol - you're confusing results with performances. As I said, not world beaters but a general up turn from where we were 2 months ago.
Fonz did come on at Stoke, so again it's incorrect to say that he's not been tried. The problem is he still looks like a kid trying to find his way in a man's world - hence why we've brought in Keane.
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I think Bent was much better against eVerton, I think linking him with Ireland works better and get's the best out of him. Gabby out side isn't always working, but we don't have too many other options, Albrighton is too eratic and N'Zogbia is either class or gash.
McLeish is starting to get a few things right, his use of Clark in midfield, and Petrov playing a bit more of an advanced role in the middle has made an improvement to the side. The introduction of Herd in centre midfield has also worked, he's not afraid to take players out of the side when they are not playing well also impresses me. Like he has done with Delph, and I'm sure he'd do the same with players like Collins, Hutton and Warnock if we had more options in those areas.
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it doesnt really matter how we argue it out on the forums, the Fans are voting with there feet,
we were all getting our knickers in a twist over a fan protest which never amounted to anything at all, people saying they were ashamed to support Villa, and it was just a very damp sqiub,
while the attendance was 31k, take away the Everton away support and you end up with approx 28k villa supporters,
thats the most worrying thing, fans are turning there back on the style of football,
i'm one of them
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it doesnt really matter how we argue it out on the forums, the Fans are voting with there feet,
we were all getting our knickers in a twist over a fan protest which never amounted to anything at all, people saying they were ashamed to support Villa, and it was just a very damp sqiub,
while the attendance was 31k, take away the Everton away support and you end up with approx 28k villa supporters,
thats the most worrying thing, fans are turning there back on the style of football,
i'm one of them
Whilst a I agree with the general point about attendances, I'm not sure it's the style that is turning people away. Were we that much better to watch under MON that we should see this scale of drop off?
For me fans want to be part of something good and the results, ambition and sense of the club going somewhere will get them to the ground more than the style of play will.
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it doesnt really matter how we argue it out on the forums, the Fans are voting with there feet,
we were all getting our knickers in a twist over a fan protest which never amounted to anything at all, people saying they were ashamed to support Villa, and it was just a very damp sqiub,
while the attendance was 31k, take away the Everton away support and you end up with approx 28k villa supporters,
thats the most worrying thing, fans are turning there back on the style of football,
i'm one of them
"The fans"aren't voting with their feet, just a minority. There are still plenty of people who subscribe to the view of support your club through thick and thin.
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it doesnt really matter how we argue it out on the forums, the Fans are voting with there feet,
we were all getting our knickers in a twist over a fan protest which never amounted to anything at all, people saying they were ashamed to support Villa, and it was just a very damp sqiub,
while the attendance was 31k, take away the Everton away support and you end up with approx 28k villa supporters,
thats the most worrying thing, fans are turning there back on the style of football,
i'm one of them
Whilst a I agree with the general point about attendances, I'm not sure it's the style that is turning people away. Were we that much better to watch under MON that we should see this scale of drop off?
For me fans want to be part of something good and the results, ambition and sense of the club going somewhere will get them to the ground more than the style of play will.
it cant help though can it,
i suppose people will always turn out for winning football no matter how it gained, but i think most of us know that living in the world of reality our present situation regarding selling players and wage cutbacks means we wont be making a charge on the top 4.
so that for me means you have to have a little hope of something being built, football being played in some sort of entertaining way, [see Swansea yesterday]
i know its difficult and there is no easy answers, but boring football isnt the answer, and i think it does keep people away
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I apologise if people misread my post..
Not your place to apologise for others misreading it Sir, my apologies to you!
I do agree with you, we should be doing much better, ergo the manager is not good enough, but I also believe that the board are playing a huge role in the decline of AVFC, whilst saying nothing at all to anyone at all, and that's a massive concern.
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Two things, by and large, make fans turn up: entertaining football or good results (given how often the two go together at the top, no wonder they have the most consistent attendances). We had good results under MON and, sometimes, good entertainment (though less so as teams came to VP more and more just to sit behind the ball), so attendances were up. Under McLeish, we're having decent-to-poor results - mediocre, in other words - with football that is often actively upsetting to watch. It's not fun being labelled consistently as the worst team to watch in a division which also includes Stoke, especially when we can't really disagree or kick up a fuss or cry media conspiracy, like we used to enjoy doing (with the tongue firmly in the cheek).
The feeling around the club is that we're just treading water, happy to exist without really doing anything. For myself, I could accept that current circumstances make our chances of winning the league not great if we were entertaining or causing a stir like that. The reality is that we're just doggy paddling in a sea of mediocrity. Added to the economic situation in WM at the moment, can anyone really blame fans for not spending large proportions of their money to go and watch something which is, let's face it, thoroughly uninspiring?
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The biggest problem for me is that I just get bored watching games now. The cost isn't the issue although putting Holte End prices up from £405 to £480 over two seasons is a joke. I just sit there most games completely disinterested in what's going on on the pitch and thinking about what better things I could be doing with my time.
I didn't feel like that when MON was boss.
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Two things, by and large, make fans turn up: entertaining football or good results (given how often the two go together at the top, no wonder they have the most consistent attendances). We had good results under MON and, sometimes, good entertainment (though less so as teams came to VP more and more just to sit behind the ball), so attendances were up. Under McLeish, we're having decent-to-poor results - mediocre, in other words - with football that is often actively upsetting to watch. It's not fun being labelled consistently as the worst team to watch in a division which also includes Stoke, especially when we can't really disagree or kick up a fuss or cry media conspiracy, like we used to enjoy doing (with the tongue firmly in the cheek).
The feeling around the club is that we're just treading water, happy to exist without really doing anything. For myself, I could accept that current circumstances make our chances of winning the league not great if we were entertaining or causing a stir like that. The reality is that we're just doggy paddling in a sea of mediocrity. Added to the economic situation in WM at the moment, can anyone really blame fans for not spending large proportions of their money to go and watch something which is, let's face it, thoroughly uninspiring?
Agree 100% Monts.
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I agree that we are 'treading water' and think this is a strategic decision from RL. The parlous financials and especially the well discussed wage bill /revenue issue being presented as the reason for non investment which forced the club into this holding pattern.
I said some months ago that I thought the Club would insist on selling to buy, to significantly reduce the total wage outlay and to that end bring on the youngsters with view to putting them in the shop window.
McCleish was given this mandate - to keep us up and steady the ship until the financials are in order. When K Mac was promoted to the first team coaching staff it reinforced the feeling that the manager will have to use the kids. Auditors were probably promised a two year window.
I understand the business need for this strategy but it is bloody dangerous. Because:
1 - Relegation is a possibility unless the players can be motivated to fight for no professional (medals)return.
2 - Fans will stay away (thus reducing revenues) if there is nothing to play for but pointless mid-table.
3 - Fans will stay away if the product is crap due to the need for safety first tactics.
4 - The kids have to be both up to Premier standard and consistant.
5 - Even with swop deals 'name' players will not want to come here.
So standards drop, unused players are unnatractive to other clubs, morale is at an all time low. But the wage bill due to contracts remains a millstone. And relegation remains, even this season, a possibility. Fiscal suicide.
We really needed an up and coming Manager with modern ideas working with the kids as an important part of the strategy. Telling the fans that although in transition we are building for the future using our superb academy and core experienced professionals. To the fans the call would have been: "So get behind us as the players fight like lions, with passion and pride to be part of the future of a new Aston Villa".
Instead we look rudderless and without ambition. Usually playing really poor, defensive, frightened football.
And before you ask- no I don't know who should have been that manager.
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I agree that we are 'treading water' and think this is a strategic decision from RL. The parlous financials and especially the well discussed wage bill /revenue issue being presented as the reason for non investment which forced the club into this holding pattern.
We're not treading water, and it's not 'holding'. We've sold our best players and not replaced them adequately, crowds are down and we're 13th in the league. We're going downhill rather swiftly.
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I can't help thinking that, when decisions were made by the club in the summer, they didn't contemplate the effect it would have on matchday attendances. As others have said, dropping attendances have far more negative impact than mutterings of dissent and demos on websites.
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Put yourselves in the position of someone who paid 40 quid to go and watch the game against Everton (which was far from the worst performance of late).
Two goals in 450 minutes of football at home.
How much of a hurry would you be in to do that again?
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I agree that we are 'treading water' and think this is a strategic decision from RL. The parlous financials and especially the well discussed wage bill /revenue issue being presented as the reason for non investment which forced the club into this holding pattern.
We're not treading water, and it's not 'holding'. We've sold our best players and not replaced them adequately, crowds are down and we're 13th in the league. We're going downhill rather swiftly.
We've won 6 of our last 24 games, and one of those was against Bristol Rovers.
We've lost 4 and drawn 1 of our last 5 home games, and managed a pathetic two goals in the process.
I'm not screaming "relegation", but anyone who isn't somewhat concerned about figures like that clearly has balls of steel.
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So what we have currently is a defensive manager, whose team cannot defend! He can stand aside and try and shift the blame on Martin O Neill for signing the defence (bar Hutton), but O Neill turns them into one of the meanest defences. O Neills not even noted as a tactician or defensive master mind either. It was man management, motivation, respect. McLeish cannot organise to save his life. A lot of players aren't giving him enough, but he's not demanding it.
His post match interviews strike me as the sort you always here from managers at clubs resigned to relegation dogfights. It's not quite O Leary, insulting his own fans, bad. But there's something a little pathetic about his interviews and something that suggests he has no ideas on improving the situation, nor great desire to. In all honesty, McLeish strikes me as someone who'll settle for where we are now. Job done.
In retrospect I do feel like Houllier might have been moving in the right direction. I just think that he would have demanded more from Randy and pushed to do more deals in the windows. That's possibly in part, why Randy took the opportunity to end Houlliers tenure here and replace him with McLeish who's merely operating as he's told.
But there's no excuse for playing such poor football. Technically, Swansea's players aren't better than ours, but they play very good football. That said, there's something to be said to just having an effective game plan and doing it uccessfully, like Stoke. Its not pretty, but they're at least good at what they do.
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We've won 6 of our last 24 games, and one of those was against Bristol Rovers.
We've lost 4 and drawn 1 of our last 5 home games, and managed a pathetic two goals in the process.
I'm not screaming "relegation", but anyone who isn't somewhat concerned about figures like that clearly has balls of steel.
None of those stats make particularly good reading, but we could also point to being unbeaten away in (I think) 5 games.
The one that matters is the league table and we're presently 13th, having been higher until we entered our run of tougher fixtures. I think we'll start climbing again and end up as what we are - a mid table side!
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I can't help thinking that, when decisions were made by the club in the summer, they didn't contemplate the effect it would have on matchday attendances. As others have said, dropping attendances have far more negative impact than mutterings of dissent and demos on websites.
Then If this was true , the people running our club have not got a clue.
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But there's no excuse for playing such poor football. Technically, Swansea's players aren't better than ours, but they play very good football. That said, there's something to be said to just having an effective game plan and doing it uccessfully, like Stoke. Its not pretty, but they're at least good at what they do.
The difference being those managers have been there a while and have signed players specifically to play in their style. McLeish has inherited a mish-mash of a squad and has only had limited opportunity to shape it to his requirements.
However many times we dress this debate up into a different thread the facts are he lost 6 players from last seasons first team, hasn't been able to replace them all, is trying to blood several youngsters and the squad is consequently unbalanced.
The club is currently geared up for mid table and that what we're getting.
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I can't help thinking that, when decisions were made by the club in the summer, they didn't contemplate the effect it would have on matchday attendances. As others have said, dropping attendances have far more negative impact than mutterings of dissent and demos on websites.
Then If this was true , the people running our club have not got a clue.
I think it is somewhat naive to think that the club did not factor in the falling attendances. They have clearly done the maths of the cost required to keep the floating fans versus the loss in revenue if they are allowed to drift away. I would hazard a guess that the cost of maintaining a 35k average attendance in squad renewal was simply not economically viable and the club just decided to allow the floating fan to fall and reduce the club down to its traditional average attendance of around 28-30k per home game.
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
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I'm not being naive, I'm just totally guessing at a scenario that may or may not have existed. You'd think it would have been considered... but I'm not sure. An unpopular managerial choice, key players sold again, scant funds available to strengthen, fans unhappy... did the club give much thought to how it would affect attendance and matchday revenue? Maybe they did. You'd hope they did.
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I honestly believe that no matter the circumstances there will always be enough season ticket holders and fans wanting to see Premiership football to maintain us around the 28k mark, especially when you factor in full houses for the glory teams.
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It's just so depressing though how quickly the pruning and dumbing down the ambition has happened. The bright future stuff seems all so far away now. It does make we wonder what the trigger was to make Randy the philanthropist fall out of love with it all.
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I agree that we are 'treading water' and think this is a strategic decision from RL. The parlous financials and especially the well discussed wage bill /revenue issue being presented as the reason for non investment which forced the club into this holding pattern.
Risso. "treading water " was a quote from a previous poster. I agree and I hope I made it clear: we are in a commercial vicious spiral and in my honest humble opinion (we don't have facts) we have created for ourselves a massive strategic mistake.
In short; by trading downwards utilising accountants models we can only fail. That is what I am saying. It needs a brave new start and for the first time I am doubting RL. Why? Because I don't like what I am seeing in Aston and we can also see what has happened across the pond. The Browns fans feel exactly the same. Exactly.
They however, do not have relegation and all it brings.
Neil H: I am sure you right and these accountants have factored in falling attendances whilst we re build - but relegation ? TV. EPL payments? We have to survive this season and perhaps next if not this. Attendances are actually not a massive income stream in comparison.
I am one of the calm ones but I am really concerned.
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Sorry I buggared up my comment - see previous. In a rush to go out, on a promise. :)
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All then scarfs....all seemed so perfect at sheff utd game , now its all ..well ....er ..shit
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RE the crowds: the important number is not where they are now, but where they will be next season if nothing changes.
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
Yeah, but this is dull football without the results.
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
Yeah, but this is dull football without the results.
Exactly. So all McLeish needs to do is win games and not worry about how we do it.
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The question really should be Is Randy the owner to take us backwards? Big Eck hasnt got a chance at the moment..
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
Yeah, but this is dull football without the results.
Exactly. So all McLeish needs to do is win games and not worry about how we do it.
The reason why MON was so popular, was that he happened to be manager at a time when Villa looked like maybe breaking into the top four. McLeish hasn't got a chance, as mentioned above. He has a reputation for playing poor football: as a result, people will perceive the football played under McLeish as worse than it actually is (note: I'm not saying that the standard of football is great at the moment).
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
Yeah, but this is dull football without the results.
Exactly. So all McLeish needs to do is win games and not worry about how we do it.
The reason why MON was so popular, was that he happened to be manager at a time when Villa looked like maybe breaking into the top four. McLeish hasn't got a chance, as mentioned above. He has a reputation for playing poor football: as a result, people will perceive the football played under McLeish as worse than it actually is (note: I'm not saying that the standard of football is great at the moment).
Villa only ever looked like breaking into the top 4 due to the league position. The football was at best, midtable. The results, especially away from home were fantastic but we were still, just like now, pretty dull at Villa Park. You're right though, McLeish doesn't stand a chance but it would be interesting to see how different he'd be perceived if he had the same kind of money MON had to spend. What made MON's time exciting was more about what was happening all around the club due to Lerner's investment.
Given the same financial conditions, I really don't see a great deal of difference between the two managers. Neither were/are good enough for Aston Villa but only one is a selfish, egotistical twat.
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You're too kind to him.
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It Villa carry on playing this dull home football , the will struggle to get 25,000 in the near future.
I don't think Villa fans are that bothered about the dull football at Villa Park, they seem to care more about the final result. How else could you explain MON's popularity?
Yeah, but this is dull football without the results.
Exactly. So all McLeish needs to do is win games and not worry about how we do it.
The reason why MON was so popular, was that he happened to be manager at a time when Villa looked like maybe breaking into the top four. McLeish hasn't got a chance, as mentioned above. He has a reputation for playing poor football: as a result, people will perceive the football played under McLeish as worse than it actually is (note: I'm not saying that the standard of football is great at the moment).
Villa only ever looked like breaking into the top 4 due to the league position. The football was at best, midtable. The results, especially away from home were fantastic but we were still, just like now, pretty dull at Villa Park. You're right though, McLeish doesn't stand a chance but it would be interesting to see how different he'd be perceived if he had the same kind of money MON had to spend. What made MON's time exciting was more about what was happening all around the club due to Lerner's investment.
Given the same financial conditions, I really don't see a great deal of difference between the two managers. Neither were/are good enough for Aston Villa but only one is a selfish, egotistical twat.
I doubt McLeish would have spent money on sensational players, he was brought in simply because he can operate (effectively???) on a limited budget.
How would you rate the players he has bought in so far? N'Zogbia has been 95% poor, Hutton dreadful, Jenas an accident waiting to happen and Keane, well we have six weeks to assess his capacity as a season saviour.
His whole mindset is still fixed at lower end Premiership, hence he has acquired players he coveted whilst at Blues.
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He also watched our reserves beat the Dingles 7-1 today so I hope he can see what the likes of Gardner, Lichaj etc. can offer.
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I'm sorry TSOV but to say 'the football was at best midtable' under MON is blindingly far from the truth and masks just have far backwards we've gone in the past season and a half.
We were genuinely competing with the big 4, home and away. Now we cant compete with Swansea!
Yes AML has had it tough, not being able to bring his own players in and all that, but the primary responsibility of a manager is to get the most out of the players at their disposal. Something he is failing miserably at. Of course Randy has to take some of the blame for appointing him but putting 200 million in to the Villa buys you time and respect in my book so I'm not going to be ungrateful.
Maybe we just need to rebalance the books before having another crack at it. I'm just not sure I can put up with watching what gets served up on a Saturday while we go through the process and I know plenty more who are thinking like me.
Dark days ahead I fear.
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What made MON's time exciting was more about what was happening all around the club due to Lerner's investment.
I think that we're (largely) saying the same thing: MON was popular because he happened to be manager at a time when we looked like progressing. It was more about the expectations about what would come, as the football that was played, and the results he achieved.
That view, though, is maybe slightly simplistic. MON's era can easily be divided in two parts. In the two first seasons, MON was to many part of a dream duo: the PL's best owner who also was happy to invest, and one of the league's best managers. Towards the end, it was becoming apparent that he only was a slightly-above-average manager relying on a fat cheque book and outdated ideas.
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Villa only ever looked like breaking into the top 4 due to the league position. The football was at best, midtable.
Whatever your thoughts on MON, the key to getting in to the top four is the league position -- not how the standard of football is perceived. ;)
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And also, the season we scored for fun in the last few games (and were often in goal of the month contention) was hardly dull - Blose and Bolton at home are two off the top of my head.
We were all scarred by MON leaving, and yes the last 18months the home form was poor, but let's not change the facts because it suits how we feel - under MOn we were top 4 contenders and played some good football. Now, well it's all just meh!
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How would you rate the players he has bought in so far? N'Zogbia has been 95% poor, Hutton dreadful, Jenas an accident waiting to happen and Keane, well we have six weeks to assess his capacity as a season saviour.
His whole mindset is still fixed at lower end Premiership, hence he has acquired players he coveted whilst at Blues.
Six weeks ago I would have agreed with you about N'Zogbia but his recent performances have shown very solid signs of improvement, in fact I was disappointed he was dropped against Everton.
Hutton, I don't rate but what do you expect for £3m or £4m? In his favour he's probably the most consistent crosser of a ball this season, something Bent desperately needs.
Jenas? Almost impossible to judge. A great debut, everybody came back from the match singing his praises and the next thing we know he's injured. Worth a risk in my book, especially with such lack of experience in our central midfield.
Keane? Too early to say but he certainly won't be as bad as some of the others in the side. He's still an intelligent player even though his legs have gone.
I'd say McLeish's mindset was morte about bringing in a few more experienced heads to allow him to give the kids their chance. That's what this season is for me, seeing in real terms, just how good the kids are before we start spending millions on players that are not as good. I'm sure Lerner hasn't forgotten buying Knight when we had Gary Cahill, nor should he.
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I think N'Zogbia has been poor, and in more than half a season he hasn't scored, which is terrible for an attacking player. Not impressed at all.
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I'm sorry TSOV but to say 'the football was at best midtable' under MON is blindingly far from the truth and masks just have far backwards we've gone in the past season and a half.
We were genuinely competing with the big 4, home and away. Now we cant compete with Swansea!
Ad@m, whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the point above is simply a twist on the truth. Whilst we did compete with the big 4 in the games we played against them, we struggled at home with almost everybody else. It was our away results that got us for a time knocking on the door of the Champions League. Whilst we can blame the smaller teams for coming to Villa Park and sitting back to defend, hoping to catch us on the break (something we were excellent at doing away from Villa Park), we should have had enough tactical nous to break these teams down. On most occasions we never did. Once we stopped scoring from free kicks we hadn't got a clue. There was no Plan B and it was extremely dull to watch.
Ironic that you mention Swansea, a team that have had over the last five years progressive footballing managers. Their victory at Villa Park was an accumulation of that work whereas we are paying the price for 5 years of outdated football, a style that wouldn't look out of place in the 1970's. I hope that one day, hopefully in the near future, we select a manager that can change the way we play and drag us into the 21st century.
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I still can't understand how some are still saying that MON managed top 6, with virtually the same core team that AMcL has now - yet its rather obvious one of the reasons MON walked was due to wanting to replace said players and was told to get rid of them first.
He knew they'd shot their bolt and wasn't prepared to take the can when the budget constraints changed the ballpark from spend, spend, spend to be accountable and work within a restrictive budget.
Yet most blame AMcL, go figure.
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I blame MO'N.
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"The fans"aren't voting with their feet, just a minority. There are still plenty of people who subscribe to the view of support your club through thick and thin.
Almost a quarter of the crowd down in just over 2-3 years is a sizeable minority. I will grant that a lot is also down higher price rises coupled with the current economic climate. But anybody trying to justify going, especially with the previous conditions affecting them, would be swayed by the football on offer.
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Hutton, I don't rate but what do you expect for £3m or £4m?
Or, if we only have limited money to spend how about not just limiting ourselves to Tottenham's reserves?
Newcastle signed Santon, an Italian international who'd played more than 50 games in Serie A by the time he was 20 for £5m. Maybe looking further afield than London might mean we get better players for better prices rather than lamenting our own inadequacy.
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"The fans"aren't voting with their feet, just a minority. There are still plenty of people who subscribe to the view of support your club through thick and thin.
Almost a quarter of the crowd down in just over 2-3 years is a sizeable minority. I will grant that a lot is also down higher price rises coupled with the current economic climate. But anybody trying to justify going, especially with the previous conditions affecting them, would be swayed by the football on offer.
It's ridiculous to pretend there's not some element of "voting with their feet" going on - look at how much our crowds are down compared to everyone else's.
The argument that there are still plenty who are going through thick and thin is entirely spurious.
31,000 against Everton, and 3,000 of them away fans, is a terrible crowd.
The people who are in denial about the crowds now are probably the same ones who were telling us our crowds would improve after Christmas, "because they always do".
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The argument that there are still plenty who are going through thick and thin is entirely spurious.
How is it? It's a statement of fact so cannot be spurious.
Crowds are down but plenty of people are still going. There was a claim made that "the fans" were staying away when that's true for only some fans, plenty of others will keep going because they see supporting the team more than just turning up in the good times. That's why some other fans get taunted with "where were you when you were shit".
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I think some fans have voted with their feet, an appointment as controversial as the one we made was always going to make up the minds of people who were wondering if to part with £500 and the standard of the football this season might deter a few more. The away support is still fantastic though.
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The argument that there are still plenty who are going through thick and thin is entirely spurious.
How is it? It's a statement of fact so cannot be spurious.
Crowds are down but plenty of people are still going. There was a claim made that "the fans" were staying away when that's true for only some fans, plenty of others will keep going because they see supporting the team more than just turning up in the good times. That's why some other fans get taunted with "where were you when you were shit".
It's spurious because I imagine that your definition of 'plenty' will differ from that of Lerner when it comes to counting up the match ticket revenue.
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The only clubs suffering a bigger drop in attendancies are Blackburn, Wolves due to Ground Improvements and Everton which is minutely worse than ours, The club are having to discount tickets and are phoning people up to find out why they are not attending.
There is a problem, the Club obviously realise there is a problem.
The club is in decline, there is no doubt about that.
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Hutton, I don't rate but what do you expect for £3m or £4m?
Or, if we only have limited money to spend how about not just limiting ourselves to Tottenham's reserves?
Newcastle signed Santon, an Italian international who'd played more than 50 games in Serie A by the time he was 20 for £5m. Maybe looking further afield than London might mean we get better players for better prices rather than lamenting our own inadequacy.
Can't argue with that, Dave. It does make you think what the hell has happened to Hutton since he joined Spurs and why anybody would pay £4m, nevermind the £9m Spurs paid. McLeish obviously knows him well from their time at Rangers but I'd rather see Carlos or Lichaj at right back that Hutton.
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I'm not trying to argue that crowds are anything other than disappointing. My point was against the phrase "the fans" when it's only "some fans".
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I'm not trying to argue that crowds are anything other than disappointing. My point was against the phrase "the fans" when it's only "some fans".
So, basically picking on a semantic point as a way to ignore the context of the post.
Yes, strictly speaking, "some" fans rather than "the fans" have voted with their feet, of course - the ground would be empty if the latter were the case.
From the minute we appointed McLeish - rightly or wrongly - it was going to be difficult to sell season tickets and match tickets. Not just because of where he came from, either, but because he's got a proven record of relegation and mediocrity.
It wouldn't have been markedly different had we appointed Martinez, either, perhaps not quite so bad, but not a great deal better, either.
The club have stated their ambitions in the appointment, and people have reacted accordingly. You're always saying that we're set out to be a mid table club and that's what we are. That isn't a message that shifts many tickets, nor will it ever be.
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You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.
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You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.
It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.
The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.
I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".
No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.
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From the minute we appointed McLeish - rightly or wrongly - it was going to be difficult to sell season tickets and match tickets. Not just because of where he came from, either, but because he's got a proven record of relegation and mediocrity.
It wouldn't have been markedly different had we appointed Martinez, either, perhaps not quite so bad, but not a great deal better, either.
I would say that there are some numbskulls who would have looked at where he came from and used that as an excuse, as shown in the video posted in the demo thread. But most would have only taken the past brand of football rather then where it was played as the issue.
As for Martinez, a lot of people defending the McCleish appointment, especially his brand of football used the argument "imagine what he could do with better players". That argument could also be used for Martinez. He has a style of play that can be more entertaining and attacking although he can't organise a defence for toffee.
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You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.
It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.
The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.
I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".
No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.
Spot on, Lets look at thier strategy
Appoint MON, The charecter appointment, give him total control over the Bank Account and then realise he had over commmited the clubs finances, an arguement he walks. Dither with Booby Mac,
Appoint Houlier, a more technical manager with the intent to introduce a style of play and build a playing ethic, A PR disaster with a health problem and an assistant with man management defiences.
Then they cant work out what to do, Hughes? no, Martinez?No Ok lets find the most contreversial appointment with a track record of relegation and agricultural football, enter Mcliesh
You could not make this stuff up, it demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding and strategy. Mcleish is not the cause of our problems merely a sympton of the inept way the club is being run.
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The crowds are poor, and we need to remember a lot of people had already renewed in the summer before McLeish was appointed. How many will decide not to bother come this summer? We could see a huge drop based on the season ticket holders I've spoken to.
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You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.
It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.
The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.
I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".
No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.
Exactly. We had the General with his "the intention is still to finish 4th, sorry I meant 5th, my finger slipped while I was typing." and "imagine what McLeish will do with proper backing from a manager like Randy." Utter, utter, utter bollocks.
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The crowds are poor, and we need to remember a lot of people had already renewed in the summer before McLeish was appointed. How many will decide not to bother come this summer? We could see a huge drop based on the season ticket holders I've spoken to.
I think there will be a lot of people who can't afford to renew under any circumstances as the recession bites, and there's not a lot we can do about that.
I also think there are a lot of people - I'm going to be one of these when my Mrs gets made redundant - who could scrape and save and find the money from somewhere, but are going to have to be convinced they're doing the right thing as it means going without things elsewhere.
These are the people we need to worry about - those in the former group, we can't do anything about.
If Randy had been controlled by some malevolent force during the summer on a mission to reduce attendances as much as possible, I struggle to think of a more evilly brilliant course of affairs than selling our best players, appointing McLeish, and telling all and sundry we've got no money to spend.
If there's no money, then there's not a lot to do about that, but really, what a way to run your business, to manage to cook up a state of affairs like that.
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Oh i remember getting grief when I quoted Churchill , you can alllways rely on Americans to make the right decision when they have exhausted every other possibilitiy.
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Spot on, Lets look at thier strategy
Appoint MON, The charecter appointment, give him total control over the Bank Account and then realise he had over commmited the clubs finances, an arguement he walks. Dither with Booby Mac,
Appoint Houlier, a more technical manager with the intent to introduce a style of play and build a playing ethic, A PR disaster with a health problem and an assistant with man management defiences.
Then they cant work out what to do, Hughes? no, Martinez?No Ok lets find the most contreversial appointment with a track record of relegation and agricultural football, enter Mcliesh
You could not make this stuff up, it demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding and strategy. Mcleish is not the cause of our problems merely a sympton of the inept way the club is being run.
The MON appointment was made / recommended by Doug so they can't be blamed for that appointment, although obviously allowing him complete reign on transfers was an amateur mistake. As for the "Booby Mac" dithering, having a manager walking out at that time was always going to make it hard to get someone in straight away. I won't argue with too much more though, although it would have been interesting what a second season of Houllier would have brought. No Collins, No Warnock, No Hutton, possibly Cabaye.
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We had the General with his "the intention is still to finish 4th, sorry I meant 5th, my finger slipped while I was typing." and "imagine what McLeish will do with proper backing from a manager like Randy." Utter, utter, utter bollocks.
Oh I do love it when you get angry. *winky*
I'd imagine the General was by that time out the loop and never imagined the financial mess we were in. I remember a season or two back when then was alarm bells ringing about the latest accounts and an huge loss posted, only for the General to say it wasn't a shock to the board and that they'd planned for it. My guess is that the summer MON left, he'd presented valuations on players that could be off loaded and the reality was nothing like it. If the board were to learn anything from it, is was to get a football man on the board, not only helping with a true assessment of the potential value of the squad but somebody that has the experience to find the right manager. A year and a half later and they still haven't got their man, instead relying on 'advisors', whoever the fuck they may be.
Randy's micro-management experiment has been a very expensive lesson both for him and the club in general.
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Spot on, Lets look at thier strategy
Appoint MON, The charecter appointment, give him total control over the Bank Account and then realise he had over commmited the clubs finances, an arguement he walks. Dither with Booby Mac,
Appoint Houlier, a more technical manager with the intent to introduce a style of play and build a playing ethic, A PR disaster with a health problem and an assistant with man management defiences.
Then they cant work out what to do, Hughes? no, Martinez?No Ok lets find the most contreversial appointment with a track record of relegation and agricultural football, enter Mcliesh
You could not make this stuff up, it demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding and strategy. Mcleish is not the cause of our problems merely a sympton of the inept way the club is being run.
The MON appointment was made / recommended by Doug so they can't be blamed for that appointment, although obviously allowing him complete reign on transfers was an amateur mistake. As for the "Booby Mac" dithering, having a manager walking out at that time was always going to make it hard to get someone in straight away. I won't argue with too much more though, although it would have been interesting what a second season of Houllier would have brought. No Collins, No Warnock, No Hutton, possibly Cabaye.
The point is they lost controll, or never had it, they have reigned over multiple fuck ups and the thing that is holding this club together is the youth system which is the most successfull part of the club and the part that they are not responsible for.
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The point is they lost controll, or never had it, they have reigned over multiple fuck ups and the thing that is holding this club together is the youth system which is the most successfull part of the club and the part that they are not responsible for.
Get you now.
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The point is they lost controll, or never had it, they have reigned over multiple fuck ups and the thing that is holding this club together is the youth system which is the most successfull part of the club and the part that they are not responsible for.
Get you now.
Cheers mate UTV
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The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.
The one thing McLeish and Houllier seem to have in common is that they are good at talking. Houllier made some PR gaffes* in interviews etc., but journalists always pointed out in their features how likeable and eloquent he was when talking to them one-to-one. Apparently, he also was very impressive in the job interview -- blowing the likes of Curbishley and Sven out of the waters. Now, we're hearing the same things about McLeish: such a nice bloke, reasonable, easy to talk to.
Based on this assessment, it's probably easy to prefer that duo to someone like Hughes or Benitez. The latter are probably perceived as uptight, not so easy-going, having strong opinions and sticking to them, and not so easily instructed by someone who they perceive as less competent than themselves.
Problem is: the board was appointing the club's new manager, not their new best mate.
*Allthough it is probably more obvious to McLeish (who has managed at Rangers) that he shouldn't mention his time at Villa's rivals, than it is for he more aloof Houllier that he shouldn't be going on about his time as manager for one Villa's Premiership rivals all the time.
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My understanding is that season ticket holders are included in the official crowd numbers, whether they attend or not. Perhaps someone can confirm/deny this. Many ST holders are not going notwithstanding their investment so the actual attendances are (maybe) even lower.
As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
The management appointment and other decisions such as 'sell to buy' have been portrayed as necessary for business reasons. Bloody poor strategic planning imho as it is creating a downward fiscal spiral of which poor attendances are only a part. Randy needs to get brave to sort this out and that includes realising that AMC was a mistake. His record with the Browns does not fill me with hope however.
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
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I wonder what our players make of the attendances?
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My understanding is that season ticket holders are included in the official crowd numbers, whether they attend or not. Perhaps someone can confirm/deny this. Many ST holders are not going notwithstanding their investment so the actual attendances are (maybe) even lower.
Season ticket holders are always included, so, if you have 25000 season ticket holders, then the crowd will be at least 25k, regardless of whether they're there or not.
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Quite a well stated 'Fan viewpoint' here...
http://www.skysports.com/fanzone/blogs/story/0,,19343_7440075,00.html
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Quite a well stated 'Fan viewpoint' here...
http://www.skysports.com/fanzone/blogs/story/0,,19343_7440075,00.html
Yeah it is, and I pretty much agree with everything said there. However, I don't think the article has emphasised how disenfranchised the fanbase feel. From my perspective, the Villa don't feel like 'my' team at the moment, and it's the appointment of McLeish that has done that. I just can't get my head around the fact that he's our manager, its like a bad dream. Coupled with the near silence of the board on what our aims are (save for Faulkner's laughable suggestion that McLeish is capable of delivering European football), I feel like I've been hoodwinked.
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
I think some of our current season card holders bought them before McLeish was appointed so yes i think so too
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
I think some of our current season card holders bought them before McLeish was appointed so yes i think so too
Problem is, even if they eventually rectify the thing and make a more suitable appointment (my money is about 3/4 months into the start of next season) I'm not sure it will be enough to get supporters back on side.
They've lost a fair bit of goodwill and credibility on this one, and just about killed any feeling of forward momentum that characterised the first four years of the RL era.
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
Two in this household who will not be renewing or even going to the QPR and Man City games due to the messing around with fixtures - to be blunt, going to Villa Park has become a chore. Poor results, poor performances, lack of passion from players, manager and fans.
Have I seen worse teams and performances? Yes I have, but back in the day players were not picking up the obscene pay packets they do right now - Fuck `em !!!
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
Two in this household who will not be renewing or even going to the QPR and Man City games due to the messing around with fixtures - to be blunt, going to Villa Park has become a chore. Poor results, poor performances, lack of passion from players, manager and fans.
Have I seen worse teams and performances? Yes I have, but back in the day players were not picking up the obscene pay packets they do right now - Fuck `em !!!
Well said. As fans working to pay for the ticket, travel etc via a pay packet it becomes onerous when we want to support our club but feel disconnected from the players we actually pay. They have the Bentley at 25 we have a cold pie. If they look lazy then of course we will give them the verbal finger. Even if their shirt matches our scarf.
Football has changed since I watched in the early sixties and Vic Crowe ran a shop up the road in Castle Bromwich when he retired. (Aftab -next to the Farthings). I could relate to him as I could my own Dad, working for a living.
We are not fickle but simply pissed off. I mean give us some effort, passion, skill, tactical nous, heart FFS. Give us a chance to win something. Drunk driving a Range Rover at your age Bannan. Idiot. Wonder why the Holte is quiet? Watch the bloody match recordings. No passion on the pitch and you blame the fans for becoming trappist monks. Fans are bemused. Staggered at the arrogance.
And if you own the Club or manage the team - do it properly. And remember who actually owns this proud history. Or admit you are not good enough and piss off. Thank you. Alex. Randy you have some good will but it is quickly running out deserved or not. Get back here and fix this crap.
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You last paragraph is short, to the point and spot on. Expect a subtle re-write and subsequent post elsewhere.
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Legion: You mean the rest was angry waffle and I need a subby? Don't answer that.
Anyway tx for back handed compliment, use it if you want. You think the same anyway. God I am angry.
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Not in the slightest. It's not a back-handed compliment at all. Twitter only allows a few words, so I have chosen the best bit.
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My agent will be in touch. Do lunch?
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If you're paying.
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Well said. As fans working to pay for the ticket, travel etc via a pay packet it becomes onerous when we want to support our club but feel disconnected from the players we actually pay. They have the Bentley at 25 we have a cold pie. If they look lazy then of course we will give them the verbal finger. Even if their shirt matches our scarf.
Football has changed since I watched in the early sixties and Vic Crowe ran a shop up the road in Castle Bromwich when he retired. (Aftab -next to the Farthings). I could relate to him as I could my own Dad, working for a living.
We are not fickle but simply pissed off. I mean give us some effort, passion, skill, tactical nous, heart FFS. Give us a chance to win something. Drunk driving a Range Rover at your age Bannan. Idiot. Wonder why the Holte is quiet? Watch the bloody match recordings. No passion on the pitch and you blame the fans for becoming trappist monks. Fans are bemused. Staggered at the arrogance.
And if you own the Club or manage the team - do it properly. And remember who actually owns this proud history. Or admit you are not good enough and piss off. Thank you. Alex. Randy you have some good will but it is quickly running out deserved or not. Get back here and fix this crap.
Great post and points. Really strikes a chord with me.
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If you're paying.
[/quote
Can tell you are Villa.
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KFC or McDonald's?
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As for next season - I think the Club are in for a shock. And let's just hope we are still in the Premier League.
From the things I've been hearing from the crowd around me you are correct.
Two in this household who will not be renewing or even going to the QPR and Man City games due to the messing around with fixtures - to be blunt, going to Villa Park has become a chore. Poor results, poor performances, lack of passion from players, manager and fans.
Have I seen worse teams and performances? Yes I have, but back in the day players were not picking up the obscene pay packets they do right now - Fuck `em !!!
Well said. As fans working to pay for the ticket, travel etc via a pay packet it becomes onerous when we want to support our club but feel disconnected from the players we actually pay. They have the Bentley at 25 we have a cold pie. If they look lazy then of course we will give them the verbal finger. Even if their shirt matches our scarf.
Football has changed since I watched in the early sixties and Vic Crowe ran a shop up the road in Castle Bromwich when he retired. (Aftab -next to the Farthings). I could relate to him as I could my own Dad, working for a living.
We are not fickle but simply pissed off. I mean give us some effort, passion, skill, tactical nous, heart FFS. Give us a chance to win something. Drunk driving a Range Rover at your age Bannan. Idiot. Wonder why the Holte is quiet? Watch the bloody match recordings. No passion on the pitch and you blame the fans for becoming trappist monks. Fans are bemused. Staggered at the arrogance.
And if you own the Club or manage the team - do it properly. And remember who actually owns this proud history. Or admit you are not good enough and piss off. Thank you. Alex. Randy you have some good will but it is quickly running out deserved or not. Get back here and fix this crap.
All of this!
Brilliant post Simba!
When my uncle finished playing he ran a pub in Worcester for 25 years and when I visited there 10 years ago was still a legend! His two sons, Frank Jr and Amos (both Villa players!) ran newsagents and saved up to move to the south west for their retirement years. They were all my heroes. There are very few I admire in the current set up and my pride in my wonderful club remains pretty much rooted in its history.
Ever the optimist, I look forward to things getting better!!??!!
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Bloody Hell. Amos who played for Kettering and the Villa. Didn't he pass on in about 2005? He played ( MUCH before my time) for about, what twenty years for Villa? Thirties? You really are Franks Uncle. Thought your name was a joke. respek
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Bloody Hell. Amos who played for Kettering and the Villa. Didn't he pass on in about 2005? He played ( MUCH before my time) for about, what twenty years for Villa? Thirties? You really are Franks Uncle. Thought your name was a joke. respek
Those are the guys!
Between them they also played for Sheff Wed and the Baggies but the family have forgiven them for their sins. Uncle was skipper when we got beat by Newcastle in the '24 FA Cup Final and captained England the following week! There was a smashing photo in The Grosvenor pub which Uncle ran (in St John's, Worcester) welcoming the boys to the club when they signed on. I need to go look, see if it's still there!
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Well said. As fans working to pay for the ticket, travel etc via a pay packet it becomes onerous when we want to support our club but feel disconnected from the players we actually pay. They have the Bentley at 25 we have a cold pie. If they look lazy then of course we will give them the verbal finger. Even if their shirt matches our scarf.
Football has changed since I watched in the early sixties and Vic Crowe ran a shop up the road in Castle Bromwich when he retired. (Aftab -next to the Farthings). I could relate to him as I could my own Dad, working for a living.
We are not fickle but simply pissed off. I mean give us some effort, passion, skill, tactical nous, heart FFS. Give us a chance to win something. Drunk driving a Range Rover at your age Bannan. Idiot. Wonder why the Holte is quiet? Watch the bloody match recordings. No passion on the pitch and you blame the fans for becoming trappist monks. Fans are bemused. Staggered at the arrogance.
And if you own the Club or manage the team - do it properly. And remember who actually owns this proud history. Or admit you are not good enough and piss off. Thank you. Alex. Randy you have some good will but it is quickly running out deserved or not. Get back here and fix this crap.
Great post and points. Really strikes a chord with me.
Just how I feel Simba . so disillusioned with the Villa at the moment , its only the fans that keep me going .
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I feel your well deserved pride. Sorry if my Villa History memory was not spot on. Amos struck a memory probably because of his unusual name and possibly mentioned by my Dad. Aston born. As was my GrandFather.
Can you scan/send the pic? Take your phone cam. Maybe my last paragraph as quoted will have additional weight as we attempt to reclaim this Club of ours. Anyway it is great memorabilia which we should all enjoy.
Tx so much for the personal History. Brilliant.
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Will do what I can.
Not sure if the landlord, who was from Chester but very proud of the Frank Moss connection, is till in post.
Aston born myself as was my dad. His mum used to put up new players when they arrived at the Villa so the club connection is pretty long-standing. Brilliant that my nephew has just started taking his 8 year old! Bright future? I hope so!
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First post but have been reading for a number of years. Some posts on here really heartfelt and so true, what the fuck is going on? So depressing to watch this club i love implode, i can only imagine the board were on some mind bending drugs the day mccleish was appointed.
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The fundamental problem for me with McLeish is that I really don't think he understands what goes on in front of his eyes as well as he should. After the Swansea game, where he'd seen them beat us with, among other things, obsessive possession, trying to keep the ball at all costs, he says the reason we didn't win is because we passed it backwards and sideways too much (many of those backwards passes went long and we lost the ball, I seem to remember). Even after losing, he doesn't take the lessons away of how we lost.
On many occasions I have heard journalists, football writers, retired managers, even some of the more eloquent retired players talk about how badly things are run in football, how people like Steve Bruce make it to the top of management without actually having any idea what they're doing. I worry that we're in one of these situations.
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That's my concern too, Monty. I'm not sure we have a manager who actually understands football*. He can pick a team, sure (even if certain players seem to be square pegs in round holes) and maybe even provide a decent team-talk, but I worry that he's pretty limited. Not sure he can get a team playing well, progressing: if he can analyse a game, put right what's gone wrong. He's come across as fairly nonplussed and resigned after matches in interviews (giving the 'not much I can do about it' line), which worries me.
* That might sound daft, but I know what I mean!
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Agreed completely, Merv. Here are a couple of articles with some very telling pieces of information about Brendan Rodgers and his methods.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jan/17/norwich-and-swansea-rising-stars?INTCMP=SRCH
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/swansea-city/9013702/Swansea-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-aims-to-convert-long-ball-believers.html
No-one's me that we don't have some players capable of implementing these strategies with some good training. It seems worryingly clear that Rodgers and his methods are the present and the future, and that McLeish and his practices are fast becoming the outmoded past.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/swansea-city/9013702/Swansea-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-aims-to-convert-long-ball-believers.html
Swansea ... do play a greater percentage of passes in their own half than any other side in the Premier League but it is all about being patient. To those raised on the orthodoxy of direct football this is baffling stuff.
A lot of the crowd at the Villa would certainly be impatient with this philosophy!
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Mcleish has been the catalyst for the first time in my life,of losing interest with Villa (slightly). We need him out, we need a manager like Paul Lambert or Rodgers,or even Di Canio. It would result in better football, players who we don't really like being moved out, and more satisfied Villa fans. But that is just my opinion however..
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I heard the other day that Martinez took a long time to win the Swansea fans over with his new style of football,Rogers has carried this on to a higher level.
In a way Houllier was trying this,I think towards the end we were starting to warm to his style as the team were gradually improving.
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A lot of the crowd at the Villa would certainly be impatient with this philosophy!
Probably would, initially. But I suppose if your fans have been schooled on what to expect, because they've seen the team playing a certain way for a couple of seasons and have seen it lead to success, and if those fans know they have a coach/manager with a strategy in mind and is beginning to put that strategy into place, then they learn to react differently.
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Part of that, N3BB is that their players aren't as good as other teams who play possession football. Barca play mostly in the opposition half because they're that damn good, but Swansea are forced back more. We would, you think, do something more in the middle. The crucial thing, though, is that the hoof is the absolute, absolute last resort, that the keeper is another footballer so you're playing with 11 men rather than 10.
Exactly, Merv GSK. The club had started to move in the right direction, patiently, but went very much back on this with the appointment of McLeish. The trouble is, I'm not too sure if Faulkner and Lerner really see the chasm of difference between the two appointments.
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Exactly, Merv GSK. The club had started to move in the right direction, patiently, but went very much back on this with the appointment of McLeish. The trouble is, I'm not too sure if Faulkner and Lerner really see the chasm of difference between the two appointments.
I think Lerner and Faulkner see it in terms of personalities, which is wrong. Pretty much every time I've heard them talk about a manager of ours, they've concentrated on how personable and easy to talk to they are, which is fine, but that alone is nothing like enough.
I think you are right, for example, that Lerner would not understand the contradiction (in football terms) in appointing Houllier for a year, then thinking about Martinez, but then going for McLeish.
I also have a suspicion that Randy looked at Moyes, thought "I like him, gets decent results on no resources", but couldn't have him, so opted for McLeish as a "grow your own" Moyes.
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You're exactly right, Paulie, but it's even more than just the Moyes thing. They see the success of Ferguson and may even think it's as simple as "Scottish, vaguely angry". I'm being facetious, of course, but maybe on a subconscious level that level of thinking may have snuck in.
It is not beyond consideration, however, that Lerner may have bought into the MON "cult-of-personality" style of management - not much tactics, not much training, hell not much football, but heaps of personality and inter-personal emphasis. This may be the reason that: a) they didn't seem to know what they were looking for in a manager philosophically, as MON barely had one; and b) that they put so much emphasis on the personality of a manager. The 'Premier League experience' rubbish could also be a hangover from MON's British-centric approach.
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I heard the other day that Martinez took a long time to win the Swansea fans over with his new style of football,Rogers has carried this on to a higher level.
In a way Houllier was trying this,I think towards the end we were starting to warm to his style as the team were gradually improving.
I think the improvement came when we reverted to what had worked well under O'Neill. I think there's a lot of revisionism going on about Houllier's time, the atmosphere around the club was poisonous with almost weekly stories of unrest and the manager repeatedly putting his foot in it. It's easy to dismiss this as just a couple of bad apples but if Gabby was reviewing his position it suggests more deep seated issues.
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I also have a suspicion that Randy looked at Moyes, thought "I like him, gets decent results on no resources", but couldn't have him, so opted for McLeish as a "grow your own" Moyes.
There may be quite a bit of truth in that.
My own feelings are that AM is trying to play a more expansive game, but largely isn't getting it right so far. That's could be due to the players not being good enough or him not being good enough to instigate that style properly, but in all likelihood it's a combination of both.
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That's just it, John. When AM says it's a myth that he's a defensive manager and that he wants to play more attacking football, I believe him. I just don't think he understands how to do it.
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The irksome 'Premier League experience' is the worst statement the management team made on their searches for new managers. If possession football of the like played by Swansea, Arsenal, etc is the future, then endeavouring to bring in managers so firmly rooted in old style tactics (4-4-2, hoof it if in doubt, high intensity etc) then you will inevitably get a throw back team rooted in the past.
To move forward and unlock the talent in our players we really needed fresh ideas. Whether that came from a manager based in Britain (in whatever league) or from outside the UK makes no matter. It was, as has been said, the philosophy that was important. That is what will inspire the players, That is what will capture the hearts and minds of the fans, and bring them back into Villa Park even during a recession.
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That's just it, John. When AM says it's a myth that he's a defensive manager and that he wants to play more attacking football, I believe him. I just don't think he understands how to do it.
He doesn't. What was telling, earlier in the season, after discussing one particular game (can't recall which), McLeish made reference to his attempts to play an attacking style and said something about a previous game in which he'd fielded 'four strikers'. I was confused, then realised he meant one his line-ups which had Bent up front, with N'Zogbia, Gabby and Heskey behind. In a way, four strikers (stretching it a bit with N'Zogbia) but I thought: 'is that how he thinks we can play a more attacking game?' By sticking strikers across his midfield and wide?
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Good point Merv. A striker isn't a striker if he's played on the wing, he's a winger. Players aren't just fixed, automated positions, with positional rectangles in-built in their DNA, they're people with talents for various things which may be utilised in various ways.
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Crucially, it's a striker being played on the wing. Some can adapt, some can't. But it was almost as if McLeish was asking out loud why we weren't scoring loads-a-goals with four 'strikers' on the field. Uh-oh, I thought. I knew why.
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Exactly. Some of the things he says sound like the flounderings of a someone who's frustrated by not being very good at Football Manager.
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The irksome 'Premier League experience' is the worst statement the management team made on their searches for new managers. If possession football of the like played by Swansea, Arsenal, etc is the future, then endeavouring to bring in managers so firmly rooted in old style tactics (4-4-2, hoof it if in doubt, high intensity etc) then you will inevitably get a throw back team rooted in the past.
To move forward and unlock the talent in our players we really needed fresh ideas. Whether that came from a manager based in Britain (in whatever league) or from outside the UK makes no matter. It was, as has been said, the philosophy that was important. That is what will inspire the players, That is what will capture the hearts and minds of the fans, and bring them back into Villa Park even during a recession.
Agreed chap.
Brendan Rodgers is flavour of the month at present, and -as we've seen- that can change very quickly.
But it can't have hurt that he was a big part of the youth development set-up at Chelsea before he made the transition to management himself.
I wouldn't necessarily say he would be suitable for the Villa -even now. But that kind of appointment, whilst probably not met with huge fanfair, might have illustrated that although we have to go about things differently now (and money won't be splashed about in the same laissez-faire manner that characterised the MON era) we do have a long-term plan and vision. And part of that vision is absolutely centred on maximising our Academy.
An appointment like McLeish -with no real record of ever bringing through young players- is at odds with that. Whatever the hot air about him buying into our values and all the rest of it. Judge him by what he's done previously, not what he says.
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Exactly. Some of the things he says sound like the flounderings of a someone who's frustrated by not being very good at Football Manager.
I'm no good at FM.
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So McLeish knew nothing about the offer for Bent from Liverpool probably because the lying scot was the one who offered Bent to Liverpool. How much more can we trust him? Can we trust him with any amount of money? If Hutton is anything to go by.
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So McLeish knew nothing about the offer for Bent from Liverpool probably because the lying scot was the one who offered Bent to Liverpool. How much more can we trust him? Can we trust him with any amount of money? If Hutton is anything to go by.
Dalglish knew nothing about it as well. Also a Scot. When Dalglish denied any knowledge it was about a week before the 'scoop' in the papers. It could have been discussed in the meantime with nobody being a lying Scot.
There would not be a manager in history who didn't own up to all transfer offers. They are all liars even the English and Welsh ones. It is a game of bluff and double bluff otherwise everyone knows your business.
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So McLeish knew nothing about the offer for Bent from Liverpool probably because the lying scot was the one who offered Bent to Liverpool. How much more can we trust him? Can we trust him with any amount of money? If Hutton is anything to go by.
Hang on, where's this come from?
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So McLeish knew nothing about the offer for Bent from Liverpool probably because the lying scot was the one who offered Bent to Liverpool. How much more can we trust him? Can we trust him with any amount of money? If Hutton is anything to go by.
Hang on, where's this come from?
Honestly, God knows. I think dazzyg is good proof that the reasons you think something are at least as important as what you think.
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Good point Merv. A striker isn't a striker if he's played on the wing, he's a winger. Players aren't just fixed, automated positions, with positional rectangles in-built in their DNA, they're people with talents for various things which may be utilised in various ways.
Quite, similarly football isn't chess with a manager moving the pieces around the pitch.
It isn't his fault that we fucked up to gift SwNsea 2 goals, which is the reason that we lost the game not some tactical master stroke by their manager. They played well to keep the ball to defend the lead but that's a different matter. We did a similar thing at Bristol in the cup, got in front and then kept the ball to stop them playing and the post match thread was all about how boring we were.
As I keep saying, we've got an unbalanced squad so there isn't a pattern of play that suits all members of it. What we're having to do until that can be rectified is to make do and mend and that is why we're seeing inconsistent performances.
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If Scotland is kicked out / decides to leave the United Kingdom, can Macleish be considered an alien or persona non grata. This may be a get out of jail free card, maybe worth looking into. Shame it wasn't done 20 years ago, Manure could be playing Leatherhead now.
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Few things there, Chris. Firstly, I don't take any conclusions from the Bristol game, positive or negative. The circumstances are so far removed from any long-term trend or pattern that I wouldn't consider it a valid piece of data. Just to make it clear, that's neither a criticism nor compliment for McLeish, just neither.
Second of all, these defensive errors do keep happening, and it may be worth noting the difference in approach McLeish and Rodgers took when talking publicly about errors. Rodgers backed his players, saying to keep true to their philosophy of playing, whereas McLeish practically heaped blame on these errors, effectively singling out individuals. That's not good for confidence, and when confidence is low errors are more likely to happen.
Finally, you talk about there not being 'a pattern of play that suits all members of [the squad]'. This assumes all styles of play to be equal, when clearly they're not. McLeish's methods actively give the ball away and do not serve the best players in our team to the best of their ability. He picks James Collins every game he's available, he plays Emile Heskey to try and 'suit' his favoured direct system, and we have not once played better this season with Heskey in the team playing to that system.
I've said, I admire your attempts to look on the bright side and to the positives. It's something I myself did with MON and Houllier, despite their flaws. However, I'm sorry, I fail to see any way this situation will improve with him in charge. He's not the only problem at the club, and in many ways the fact that he was appointed shows that there are bigger problems, but he is definitely an indicative one.
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As I keep saying, we've got an unbalanced squad so there isn't a pattern of play that suits all members of it. What we're having to do until that can be rectified is to make do and mend and that is why we're seeing inconsistent performances.
I don't really understand that. I don't see that we have got an unbalanced squad - we're weaker than ideal in central midfield, but we have plenty of numbers and cover and the manager should be more than capable, by now, of assessing his squad, realising what suits the players he has at his disposal, and putting something more effective together. Really, injuries have been very kind to us so far, but we're still stumbling around from game to game in many ways.
I'm not sure what we're expecting to be rectified, as this is the squad we have, the manager we have, and we're facing a rather uncertain future in terms of investment in the squad. I struggle to equate the situation the club is in and the strategy it has declared - heavy emphasis on Academy/youth players - and the manager we have chosen to appoint. Totally at odds from one to the other.
I'd like to be more positive about the state of affairs, but this is how I'm reading the situation.
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As I keep saying, we've got an unbalanced squad so there isn't a pattern of play that suits all members of it. What we're having to do until that can be rectified is to make do and mend and that is why we're seeing inconsistent performances.
I don't really understand that. I don't see that we have got an unbalanced squad - we're weaker than ideal in central midfield, but we have plenty of numbers and cover and the manager should be more than capable, by now, of assessing his squad, realising what suits the players he has at his disposal, and putting something more effective together. Really, injuries have been very kind to us so far, but we're still stumbling around from game to game in many ways.
I'm not sure what we're expecting to be rectified, as this is the squad we have, the manager we have, and we're facing a rather uncertain future in terms of investment in the squad. I struggle to equate the situation the club is in and the strategy it has declared - heavy emphasis on Academy/youth players - and the manager we have chosen to appoint. Totally at odds from one to the other.
I'd like to be more positive about the state of affairs, but this is how I'm reading the situation.
We bought our star player, Bent, with an eye to a passing game and two good supply lines from wide in Young and Downing. Both have been sold and AM plays less of a pass game than Houllier did.
The defence, Hutton apart, was bought by MON, who had a 'get it forward quickly' approach, which they then had to change under Houllier and now seem stuck somewhere between with McLeish.
It's a symptom of our scatter gun approach to the managerial role in that the last three have been so different, hence players bought and told to play a certain way may not suit the next man in the manager's chair.
I agree we should be doing a bit better by nowm, but that doesn't take away from the fact McLeish's squad, which he's laregely inherited, was bought by two different managers with two different styles in mind.
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We don't have a genuine ball winning midfield player, we're making do with using an inexperienced centre half there. Central midfield is the most important area of the team and we've been trying to find a combination that works all season, it's improved in recent weeks since Ireland has found some form but it's still far from ideal. We're still trying to find a way of getting the best out of Bent and Gabby at the same time, there are precious few goals in the side so leaving either out isn't an option but without the right midfield they'll continue to blow hot and cold. We're also trying to blood a lot of youngsters at the same time and consequently will get inconsistent performances.
That's what I mean by being unbalanced.
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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739)
Hard to disagree with this analysis.
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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739)
Hard to disagree with this analysis.
An unwillingness to risk defeat in order to pursue victory; a safety-first ethos denying of survival.
About sums it up for me.
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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739)
Hard to disagree with this analysis.
Exactly. We didn't lose the Swansea game because of defensive errors although they didn't help - we conceded two against Norwich and still won the game.
We lost against Swansea because we had one shot on target. We picked up one point against Swansea in two games. No goals in 180 minutes. We've now scored two goals at home since that Norwich game. The parallels with the style he played at Blues are clear to see.
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What an excellent article, its a bit leopards and spots, He has not shown that he can change or even knows how to change.
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That article is spot on.
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Scarily good article. Was it even written by a Villa fan? If not, that's some impressive third-party knowledge..
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What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?
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What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?
Sorry DC5, I'd love to be positive but I don't see how it's possible. Why should I get behind a manager I don't think is right for the club? The same argument applied to political leaders and countries is one used by dictators and is famously flimsy. Blind loyalty gets nobody anywhere.
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What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?
Sorry DC5, I'd love to be positive but I don't see how it's possible. Why should I get behind a manager I don't think is right for the club? The same argument applied to political leaders and countries is one used by dictators and is famously flimsy. Blind loyalty gets nobody anywhere.
It is not blind loyalty. Nobody is giving the bloke a chance. There is no support from his employers and an evil undercurrent containing 'supporters' and a couple of players. Comparing the manager to a dictator is a poor analogy. For those who tell me to 'change the record', I have had enough of those who repeatedly tell me about McLeish's relegations but conveniently forget Blues' League Cup win.
Delusions of grandeur applies here. Our owners will not put money in. They let PD waste club money. They must stump up now. It is grossly unfair what they are doing. Can't remember any of Doug's board disappearing.
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They let PD waste club money.
Probably a stupid question, but who's PD?
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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739)
Hard to disagree with this analysis.
An unwillingness to risk defeat in order to pursue victory; a safety-first ethos denying of survival.
About sums it up for me.
So what happened in the last game we played? As we so often, people over emphasis the evidence that supports their stance and ignore the stuff that contradicts it.
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They let PD waste club money.
Probably a stupid question, but who's PD?
It's his name for O'Neill. He takes delight in saying it so I'm sure he'll come to tell you what it stands for.
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They let PD waste club money.
Probably a stupid question, but who's PD?
It's his name for O'Neill. He takes delight in saying it so I'm sure he'll come to tell you what it stands for.
Puff Daddy?
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http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story/_/id/1009954/dynamism-lacking-in-alex-mcleish-masterplan?cc=5739)
Hard to disagree with this analysis.
An unwillingness to risk defeat in order to pursue victory; a safety-first ethos denying of survival.
About sums it up for me.
So what happened in the last game we played? As we so often, people over emphasis the evidence that supports their stance and ignore the stuff that contradicts it.
True. Human Nature. However, I think Villa fans have given him a chance and there has been no substantial McLeish OUT chanting. No Banners. No demo except for poor old Dazzy, on his own.
The analysis with undeniable statistics is correct and represents the general feeling at Villa Park, other football fans and increasingly the pundits. The only issue from the fans perspective is whether to ignore the dire football and support the team until hoarse , or demand that he is fired via protest, or shrug shoulders in impotant, apathetic resignation.
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What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?
Sorry DC5, I'd love to be positive but I don't see how it's possible. Why should I get behind a manager I don't think is right for the club? The same argument applied to political leaders and countries is one used by dictators and is famously flimsy. Blind loyalty gets nobody anywhere.
That's an extremely fatuous analogy. You should give the mana chance, losing six first team regulars in the summer would have caused a problem for whoever got the job. We're trying to build a team on the go, the best we could ever hope for this season was mid table.
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I'd hate to think I belong to a lynch mob or that I'm putting the boot into the manager - I accept I can't see many positives to our situation but I'm also far far removed from the types who'd stage a demo and boo the guy's name before kick-off. That's unacceptable.
But everything I know about football, that made me dread the appointment of McLeish in the summer, makes me strongly doubt he's the kind of manager we need, and the kind to take us forward. I'll say again, I continue to give him a chance, as I have done all season. I'm not heartened by what I'm seeing so far. I wish I was.
Unbalanced squad - we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of that; I did say I think we're really lacking one top-class midfielder (though I could ask why AM has allowed so many midfielders to leave if that's an area of weakness) and he's been unlucky with regards to Jenas. I'm not sure that makes the squad unbalanced, we have depth in all areas, even if we are missing that one top midfield player. I notice AM seems willing to allow yet one more central midfielder, Delph, to leave on loan.
Yes, we sold six first teamers in the summer, but when we quote that figure we also need to recall the players signed to replace them: so we did bring Hutton, Given and N'Zogbia in, and Jenas on loan, so that's four back in. It wasn't a case of losing six and no-one coming in.
But again, that's back to my point. Not arguing that, in an ideal world, McLeish needs money for one or two more players - but he won't get that money. The club has embarked on a different model, one of utilising the current squad and the reserve/youth set-up... that being the case, we need to have a manager who can thrive in that environment, and I don't think we do.
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They let PD waste club money.
Probably a stupid question, but who's PD?
Poison Dwarf.
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I'd hate to think I belong to a lynch mob or that I'm putting the boot into the manager - I accept I can't see many positives to our situation but I'm also far far removed from the types who'd stage a demo and boo the guy's name before kick-off. That's unacceptable.
But everything I know about football, that made me dread the appointment of McLeish in the summer, makes me strongly doubt he's the kind of manager we need, and the kind to take us forward. I'll say again, I continue to give him a chance, as I have done all season. I'm not heartened by what I'm seeing so far. I wish I was.
Unbalanced squad - we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of that; I did say I think we're really lacking one top-class midfielder (though I could ask why AM has allowed so many midfielders to leave if that's an area of weakness) and he's been unlucky with regards to Jenas. I'm not sure that makes the squad unbalanced, we have depth in all areas, even if we are missing that one top midfield player. I notice AM seems willing to allow yet one more central midfielder, Delph, to leave on loan.
Yes, we sold six first teamers in the summer, but when we quote that figure we also need to recall the players signed to replace them: so we did bring Hutton, Given and N'Zogbia in, and Jenas on loan, so that's four back in. It wasn't a case of losing six and no-one coming in.
But again, that's back to my point. Not arguing that, in an ideal world, McLeish needs money for one or two more players - but he won't get that money. The club has embarked on a different model, one of utilising the current squad and the reserve/youth set-up... that being the case, we need to have a manager who can thrive in that environment, and I don't think we do.
Fair enough. I didn't intend to generalise. I was aiming the comment at those who repeatedly trot out the moronic drivel about 'two relegations' and 'worst player ever -Alan Hutton'. They are not prepared to give him a chance. It is true that there has not been much anti-McLeish chanting. I get the feeling that this is about as good as it will ever get. Will we ever get to find out if he is accepted as a successful manager? We can only hope so. Idiotic demonstrations that totally fail to catch on create a bad vibe. Unfortunately, the chanting, if it starts, will be sudden, when all those who have held back will join in with their fellow brothers; a bit like the 'you don't know what you're doing', which was considerably helped by the away fans incidentally. Once it starts, it will get out of control and we would probably lose every game from thereon in. We must avoid that situation developing by supporting the manager. Lerner will make his own mind up.
It is only my own view but I get a gut feeling when a manager should go. It has not happened so far this season.
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I personally feel that McLeish will never be accepted by the fans, much like George Graham was never accepted by the Spurs fans despite bringing them success in the form of a league cup and a much improved league position.The fact that he came from the Blues really doesn't bother me one iota.His brand of football is my biggest issue with him but that could be changed if that brand of football starting getting us wins.You only have to look at this forum to see how much venom is aimed at O'Neill to see that by nature there's a large amount of Villa fans who are happier when we're moaning.In the summer Martinez wasn't good enough, the thought of McClaren caused uproar and then to top it off we appoint the manager who has just got Birmingham relegated.We are a club who had their expectation levels raised to a point where O'Neill wasn't good enough as he could only get us to 6th.Now we're having to look upwards to find Swansea and Norwich.McLeish is getting it in the neck but he really isn't the whole problem, he's just an easy target.
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The one thing any manager asks for in a new job is time.
McLeish hasn't had much of it yet, which is compounded by being handcuffed in the transfer market so far. And although we can point to four coming in, the transfer profit made points to the fact the quality was less than went out, hence it's not 4 like-for-like coming in compared to those going out. Only in the Given are we been able to see any improvement quality wise.
But that's money and transfers, which we can all plainly see, what we can't see is what goes on behind closed doors and during training, where I think he's trying to get a more fluid, possession based and attacking game from the team. We've seen glimpses of it, but largely I'll admit it's been disappointing. And that's where the time issue comes in. It may turn out he;'s ultimately not good enough, but I'm not willing to write him off until he's had a chance to put his own stamp on the squad and at least one full season to get to grips with the club.
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Randy will give him time and Alex will be kept on - relegation or no.
Hopefully we will survive and Alex will be judged as a Premier League Manager from next season which is fair given the need to get to grips with the Club, loss of key players etc.
My fear is that DC5 is correct and a fan backlash is not far away, will happen exponentially and be very vicious. If it gets really bad we might be reading a 'mutual consent' letter.
Alex needs a couple of wins and committed positive performances on the trot. Simple. (!)
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What a pity that so many have chosen to put the boot into our manager. It is support that we need not all you lot huddling together for your own warmth and self security.
I couldn't care less about that newspaper article. The writer has not put a penny into our coffers, but is happy to accept our hospitality. His opinion is only offered to line his own pocket.
Too many people have now got carried away by all this ill feeling. It is a lynch mob or a collection of vultures.
What has happened to our spirit?
Sorry DC5, I'd love to be positive but I don't see how it's possible. Why should I get behind a manager I don't think is right for the club? The same argument applied to political leaders and countries is one used by dictators and is famously flimsy. Blind loyalty gets nobody anywhere.
That's an extremely fatuous analogy. You should give the mana chance, losing six first team regulars in the summer would have caused a problem for whoever got the job. We're trying to build a team on the go, the best we could ever hope for this season was mid table.
I'm not saying he is an equivalent to a dictator, just that the argument is similarly not based on facts but on hope. Unhelpful language, I admit, but it was the only one I could think of. Anyway.
I give the man a chance. Every week, sometimes twice a week, when the team goes out, I give him more than a chance: I hope he's right, I hope he proves all the doubters, including (fuck it, especially) me, wrong.
You're right, the circumstances he's in aren't the easiest, and yes, mid-table maybe the best we could hope for. But we're not in an overly different position to Blues this time last year and, while I don't think we're going down, I still think we have better players than they did last year, so that performance isn't fantastic.
But more than that. I've said before that I don't mind being in mid-table if that's all the club can achieve right now. But McLeish's football isn't just mediocre - it's nihilistic. It's actively painful to watch for large parts of it. And, crucially, the man is into his 50s, well established in his managerial career, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing in the past to suggest that he knows how to implement any of the strategies he claims to endorse in terms of attacking football. Not only that, the evidence of both numbers and statistics supports the reverse (you said that article conveniently ignored the last game - that's an appalling analysis criticism, considering that it's one game out of many which confirm the opposite view).
I couldn't give a damn about his Blues connections - in fact, were he a good manager, I'd love it even more that we'd nabbed him from them, it would have been hilarious. I will continue, every Saturday at 2.59pm (or whenever we're playing) to forget my reservations and watch objectively. But as every game proves as disappointing as the last, during the week it is impossible for me to forget and shelve these reservations.
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I'm not falling over myself with enthusiasm for him but I do believe he's got enough in the plus column to justify more time. The decent unbeaten streak at the beginning, signs of better football in December, Chelsea win, getting more out of key players like Gabby, Dunne and Ireland than Houllier ever did, Given. Nothing earth shattering but without the blues connection I think the vast majority would think he was doing a competent job in hard circumstances.
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't knowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Sorry Chris, that's just bollocks. You can't just go out there and accuse me of thinking things which I just didn't. Sure, I was far from enamoured by the appointment, I think we all were, but certainly in the early days I did nothing but give him the benefit of the doubt: I thought Hutton could have been a good signing (who knows, he may still turn out to be), I certainly liked the N'Zogbia signing, I agreed (still do) about playing Gabby on the wing, praised the improved fitness of players like Petrov and Dunne, thought the way he gave Bannan and Herd decent chances in the first team was a good thing, and he appears to have given Ireland the confidence back to play well.
These are positives. However, those numerous negatives detailed everywhere outweigh them for me. I don't boo the team, never have and, probably, never will, I haven't gone on any demonstrations, I still hope he gets it right, but I just struggle to see how he will given the facts available. I mean, for goodness' sake, after one game he said "the passing was poor, which I can't do anything about" - really? For a manager to say that is pretty amazing.
I acknowledged the improvement in performances more than most. You can also talk about how there are instances of obvious contradictions to the article, but this is my fundamental problem: I don't doubt that he wants to be more attacking, I just doubt that he knows how. I don't question his sincerity - just his competence. And lord knows, on some occasions his commitment to attacking football has certainly waned - the selections and performances against Spurs and (people don't talk about this one so much, but it stuck in my mind) Stoke were certainly nihilistic (one use of the word: "The belief that all endeavours are ultimately futile and devoid of meaning" - not a bad description of our Spurs capitulation).
It's notable that, since Ireland has replaced the injured Heskey in the side, the football has improved. But that wasn't a tactical switch - that was just Heskey getting injured, so he put someone in the team to operate in the same areas. Would he have done this if Heskey was fully fit? We might never know, but the fact that he only did it because of an injury to Emile could be called telling.
Look, it's obvious we're not going to come to an agreement on this. I reserve the right to be reasonably critical. You're treating my arguments as if I'm dazzyg or someone, which I find a little unfair. My arguments are, I believe, based on evidence and certainly comprise an understandable position to hold at the present time. They're also subject to change on the basis of evidence.
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Randy will give him time and Alex will be kept on - relegation or no.
Hopefully we will survive and Alex will be judged as a Premier League Manager from next season which is fair given the need to get to grips with the Club, loss of key players etc.
My fear is that DC5 is correct and a fan backlash is not far away, will happen exponentially and be very vicious. If it gets really bad we might be reading a 'mutual consent' letter.
Alex needs a couple of wins and committed positive performances on the trot. Simple. (!)
Could be soon too! Fail to beat Wolves and QPR and possibly get dumped by the Arse in between and that might just do it! Of course, win those two and even a loss to the Arse 'whilst trying' as at Xmas and there's a different picture, but we need to be out of, or at least on our way out of, the shit by Mid-March and the next (league) trip to the Emirates because the season can still get very painful if we're not! We may be mid-table 'quality', but we certainly are not in actuality. McLeish now needs wins more than performances, then we will see.
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I think tomorrow's match at Wolves could represent an opportunity for Mcleish. If Villa play well and win he will be able to point to a run of genuinely good form away from home, and the emphasis will shift more from a general analysis of Mcleish's management to the question why Villa aren't good at home. This will certainly not be the first time Villa have been decent on the road but not as good on their own patch.
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which players are against Alex DC5?
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As ive just put on the match thread Alexs birthday tomorrow. Maybe its time to get behind him and the players? It looks like a relegation battle is on we need to be united. It smells of 86\87. Untill Randy changes course were going to be swimming against the tide no matter who is in charge.
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It smells of 86\87
No it doesn't, nothing like it. We were absolutely doomed that season.
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Ok 86/87 was abit dramatic but id rather have Bernie Gallagher than Stephen Warnock..
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which players are against Alex DC5?
Give me a couple of days and I will confirm it Hoppo.
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
Anybody who is not prepared to accept McLeish if he brings success should fuck off now as they are destabilising the club. Not suggesting you are but I thought it worth mentioning.
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Ok 86/87 was abit dramatic but id rather have Bernie Gallagher than Stephen Warnock..
No chance. Gallagher was the worst fullback I ever saw in a Villa shirt. Warnock's nowhere near as bad.
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McLeish is getting it in the neck but he really isn't the whole problem, he's just an easy target.
Summed up in a few words. Bang on!
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
Anybody who is not prepared to accept McLeish if he brings success should fuck off now as they are destabilising the club. Not suggesting you are but I thought it worth mentioning.
"If he brings success". That has to be considered unlikely doesn't it? Even if he was a decent manager, he's working for Lerner, so taking the two parties and their relative recent performances into consideration, I'd have to conclude that there's more chance of me bringing home Megan Fox. So, it'd be lovely if Lerner did bring success, but wishful thinking isn't going to make it happen.
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
Anybody who is not prepared to accept McLeish if he brings success should fuck off now as they are destabilising the club. Not suggesting you are but I thought it worth mentioning.
"If he brings success". That has to be considered unlikely doesn't it? Even if he was a decent manager, he's working for Lerner, so taking the two parties and their relative recent performances into consideration, I'd have to conclude that there's more chance of me bringing home Megan Fox. So, it'd be lovely if Lerner did bring success, but wishful thinking isn't going to make it happen.
Risso is right, he's got no chance of taking Megan Fox home
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
Anybody who is not prepared to accept McLeish if he brings success should fuck off now as they are destabilising the club. Not suggesting you are but I thought it worth mentioning.
"If he brings success". That has to be considered unlikely doesn't it? Even if he was a decent manager, he's working for Lerner, so taking the two parties and their relative recent performances into consideration, I'd have to conclude that there's more chance of me bringing home Megan Fox. So, it'd be lovely if Lerner did bring success, but wishful thinking isn't going to make it happen.
Risso is right, he's got no chance of taking Megan Fox home
Actually, I met him in a quaint little pub in Ramsey last night, and one thing led to another and he took me home for a right good seeing to. He was a beast.
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I told you to keep that quiet.
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;D
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The thing is Monty, you say you are giving him a chance but your every comment belies that. You made up your mind the second he was appointed and haven't approached it with the open mind required to truly give the msn a chance. You don't aknowledge the improvement in performances, you don't acknowledge he's got more out of certain individuals than Houllier did and while you accept that he took over in difficult circumstances you give no leeway because of it.
I pointed out the Everton game as it was such an obvious contradiction to the article, there are plenty more. Our problem is inconsistency, we are capable of good football but we're equally capable of appalling individual errors which often undo all of the other good work and undermine our already fragile confidence further.
And "nihilistic", are you sure?
Everybody expecting Villa to play rubbish football, struggle to score goals, and hang around lower mid-table under McLeish have been proven completely right. Anybody expecting things to get significantly better under the present set up are fooling themselves.
Anybody who is not prepared to accept McLeish if he brings success should fuck off now as they are destabilising the club. Not suggesting you are but I thought it worth mentioning.
"If he brings success". That has to be considered unlikely doesn't it? Even if he was a decent manager, he's working for Lerner, so taking the two parties and their relative recent performances into consideration, I'd have to conclude that there's more chance of me bringing home Megan Fox. So, it'd be lovely if Lerner did bring success, but wishful thinking isn't going to make it happen.
Risso is right, he's got no chance of taking Megan Fox home
Actually, I met him in a quaint little pub in Ramsey last night, and one thing led to another and he took me home for a right good seeing to. He was a beast.
He's the Villa Werewolf.
I knew it.
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
Could be a good summary of him compared to Houllier: he's better at getting the goods out of the type of people we have at the club, but worse tactically.
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Could be a good summary of him compared to Houllier: he's better at getting the goods out of the type of people we have at the club, but worse tactically.
Tend to agree. Even though I think he's the better manager of the two; we would probably have struggled even more with Houllier in charge. The big change since last season is the loss of Young, Downing, NRC and maybe even Kyle Walker. I struggle to believe that GH would have gotten as much out of Ireland and Gabby as McLeish have.
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
Gabby went off because he was sick.
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The answer to the headline question from me is 'no', but he's Lerner's appointment to keep us in the Prem.
Great win yesterday mind, and a great game of football !
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
Again, a very selective analysis. We were all over Bolton, for instance, and if Bent had taken his chances would have won by a distance. We defended very well at Chelsea and then hit them with well worked counter attacks. You could also argue that individual errors have cost us in other games, Swansea and Everton most recently. It really is so difficult for many of you to give McLeish why credit and even when you do it's very grudging.
I think it's because of a need to provide an judgement of him after every single game, instead of waiting to see how things pan out over the course of a season. See where 38 games leaves us, then we might be able to more fully assess his worth.
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
We need to show the Board that Villa supporters believe Alex McLeish should not be considered for the vacant managers position and the Board should widen its search for a candidate that echoes the fans values and aspirations for the club.
So......I'm not the only one who doesn't want him.
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
Are these the 14,000 who could'nt be arsed to turn up for the last protest?
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
Are these the 14,000 who could'nt be arsed to turn up for the last protest?
Strange as it may seem, all 14,000 of them had appointments at the dermatologists that very afternoon.
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
We need to show the Board that Villa supporters believe Alex McLeish should not be considered for the vacant managers position and the Board should widen its search for a candidate that echoes the fans values and aspirations for the club.
So......I'm not the only one who doesn't want him.
14,000 keyboard warriors on Facebook.
I love the internet.
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
Are these the 14,000 who could'nt be arsed to turn up for the last protest?
That's the joy of pornhub
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Facebook group Aston-Villa-Supporters-We-dont-want-Alex-McLeish, who’s fan base is fast approaching 14,000 within just 48 hours is calling for all Villa fans to protest tomorrow at 6pm.
We need to show the Board that Villa supporters believe Alex McLeish should not be considered for the vacant managers position and the Board should widen its search for a candidate that echoes the fans values and aspirations for the club.
So......I'm not the only one who doesn't want him.
Should not be considered for the vacant managers position...
Think you're a bit behind the times, JizzyD.
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Yes, that was 14,000 at the time when some fans thought a protest could change or influence the club's decision. There'd be a lower interest now, I think. Some will have perhaps changed their minds about McLeish.
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
Gabby went off because he was sick.
Still deserves credit for replacing him with Warnock - it wasn't the most obvious swap. Keeping Clark on and shifting him to midfield was also a good move.
And what about Mcleish's substitutions at Chelsea? People at the time were givinig him credit because they were so positive.
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So......I'm not the only one who doesn't want him.
You have got friends. Don't persecute yourself. Your posts are the highlight of the week now that Compass has gone.
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Tbf most of our games this season have been won by individual brilliance....Gabby at home to Wigan, Alrighton at Bolton, Ireland at Chelsea and Keane in the second half today. I'd still say McLeish's poor tactics have contributed to us not winning more games this season.
That said it was a brave call to take off Gaby and bring on Warnock but one McLeish got bang on so well done to him for that.
Gabby went off because he was sick.
Still deserves credit for replacing him with Warnock - it wasn't the most obvious swap. Keeping Clark on and shifting him to midfield was also a good move.
And what about Mcleish's substitutions at Chelsea? People at the time were givinig him credit because they were so positive
I'm no McLeish fan and I didn't think he helped himself by admitting he stumbled into the half time swaps which turned the course of the game, he should have kept schtum and let everyone think it was done after much contemplation.
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No change here from the day he was appointed, answer is no and despite the fact that there seems to be some respite because we beat Wolves, laugh emote, confident we will be back at square one before to many more drab performance.
The bigger picture is without doubt a season of negative performances in most games, some outstanding weak defensive displays, a top striker that can't score for love or money, and the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season.
Who said Gabby was sick and if this is a genuine reason and not some spiel put out by the club then why did McLiesh make such a radical move like swapping a forward with a defender, he made that move at that time because something had to be done, put another way, had we lost that game not even Mr Chris Smith could have given his support behind that little ditty of a move, fortunately for AM it worked in the end but even then there where many other circumstances that influenced the game such as playing a poor team down to 10 men.
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A top striker who can't score for love nor money? So how as he managed 8 this season?
Your just like Dazzyg without the .........s, you just cannot accept anything positive about the manager such is your blinkered obsessive dislike.
As for Gabby, have a look for his comments today about how happy he is at Villa and that it's the club he wants to be it, then try to find a way to distort it to your conspiracy theory.
The biggest influence on the game was surely AM's signing, Robbie Keane, scoring two cracking goals.
Also how can something that is your opinion be a fact?
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A top striker who can't score for love nor money? So how as he managed 8 this season?
Your just like Dazzyg without the .........s, you just cannot accept anything positive about the manager such is your blinkered obsessive dislike.
As for Gabby, have a look for his comments today about how happy he is at Villa and that it's the club he wants to be it, then try to find a way to distort it to your conspiracy theory.
The biggest influence on the game was surely AM's signing, Robbie Keane, scoring two cracking goals.
Also how can something that is your opinion be a fact?
To point one, 8, Darren Bent, that's p*ss poor for this stage in the season, if he doubled it for the rest of the season most peoples expectations when we paid what we did for him was a lot more.
Gabby churns this stuff out all the time, IMO, and as mentioned before, Gabby's problem is he's so devoted to the club he's blinded by it, however I admire his loyalty, its up to him, and I'm a massive Gabby fan and would love to see him in an England shirt, won't happen.
The biggest influence on the game was 2 goals from Keane, but to deny there was not other factors involved is just pure and crass stupidity, as for how important this signing was, I don't base my opinion on 45 mins or even 1 game.
As for this Conspiracy theory trip your on, you seriously need help, actually there is a good book I can recommend that implied that most thing in life we do is based upon some kind of conspiracy or other, not something I would subscribe to but you obviously do.
And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
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To point one, 8, Darren Bent, that's p*ss poor for this stage in the season, if he doubled it for the rest of the season most peoples expectations when we paid what we did for him was a lot more.
Those 8 goals have come in just 18 games, meaning he's 1 goal shy of being a 1 in 2 striker this season. If that's 'piss poor' I'd like to know what you actually do expect from him?
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And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
Here:
the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season
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8 goals is ok, Liverpool are in the top 6 and yet Downing, Kuyt and Carroll have something like 1 league goal between them this season. He's doing a bit better than Torres too. If he gets 15 this season in a so so year then in years when we are pushing the top 6 he'll be up near 20 per season, that's what I'd expect from Bent really. Gabby's best tally was 16 I think and Carew's 17, Bent would easily outdo this if we had a similar team now as we had back then, pushing the top 4 all the way.
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And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
Here:
the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season
You're arguing semantics there Mr. Smith! This reminds me of your views when we were in the DO'Ldrums .. err .. days!
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And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
Here:
the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season
How does that back up your arguement. He said he nevers says it's a fact and that quote actually porves him correct. He states it's a fact that his opinion is we will finish in the bottom 6, that genuinely is a fact. Nowhere does he state that it's a fact that we will finish in the bottom 6, which can't be a fact as it's conjecture to say whether that is true or not until the end of the season.
Aside from that, the bit that I have issue within the lauding of a great decision to bring on Warnock is that the real big change that led to was moving Clark back into the middle where he completely bossed the game. Given how well he'd been playing in central midfield for the last month the decision to move him out to left back was a terrible decision which he then corrected by stumbling onto the change to move him back (his own words).
Warnock had been playing badly and deserved to be dropped but moving clark and replacing him in midfield with keane was a bad decision. It was a good result in the end and the 2nd half was very encouraging at times but 3 points doesn't make him immune to criticism.
I don't think he's the right person to take us forward, that's an opinion, it's based on his previous record and on his tactics and choices as manager over the last 6months or so. I'm not saying everything has been terrible, the likelihood is that we will finish safely midtable, what I question is whether he has done enough in that time to suggest giving him money in the summer would improve us or not. Some people will think he's earned the right to spend that money and then be judged on how it's spent and that's their opinion which they are entitled to. Other people think he should be sacked on the spot and replaced with whatever we can get, again that's an opinion.
Personally i think the quality of performances on the pitch isn't good enough to offset the financial impact of having him at the club given the attitude of a large number of the fans. Football has to be top priority but we're also a business and as a business we need to react better to the reaction of our customer base. If the CEO of any normal business made a decision which led to a 10% loss of customers it would rightly be questioned.
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
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And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
Here:
the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season
You're arguing semantics there Mr. Smith! This reminds me of your views when we were in the DO'Ldrums .. err .. days!
Zzzzz!
He said he didn't use the word "fact", I'm just reminding him that he did.
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
How do you know how something will work until you try it?
Aa for the broader point are you suggesting that opinions on here are worthless because we're nor paid to do it?
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And by the way, once again read my post, I clearly state "In my opinion" nowhere do I state fact.
Here:
the fact that in my opinion we will be fighting the drop along with another 6 or 7 teams in the Premiership this season
You're arguing semantics there Mr. Smith! This reminds me of your views when we were in the DO'Ldrums .. err .. days!
Zzzzz!
He said he didn't use the word "fact", I'm just reminding him that he did.
Precisely. Semantics.
Yawn!
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
How do you know how something will work until you try it?
Aa for the broader point are you suggesting that opinions on here are worthless because we're nor paid to do it?
No, what i'm saying is he's paid to make decisions, if he gets them wrong it matters more than if we do.
As for not knowing if something will work until we try it, i kind of agree, but you have to rule out the really poor ideas before you try it (like heskey in midfield, oh, actually he tried that). Moving a top performing player out of a position he was settled in is a poor decision.
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
Well as you are not getting paid 2 million a year maybe its not even worth listening to your opinion or comments based on that remark?
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
Well as you are not getting paid 2 million a year maybe its not even worth listening to your opinion or comments based on that remark?
You really want to read it that way then go ahead. As I've already said in a follow up, the difference is if 1 of us makes a big deal about a decision and then it doesn't work out it's a loss of pride, if the manager does it it's slightly more significant, hence him making a decision that was supported but turned out to be wrong is something that can be used against him.
Left back wasn't the problem against wolves, centre mid was, where frimpong was bossing things, 2nd half frimpong was very quiet for the time he was on as clark got close to him and nullified the threat.
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To be fair quite a few of us wanted to shift Clark to left back to replace Warnock so we can't really criticise him for that, though I did think our midfield would be piss weak without Clark.
Indeed a few people on here wanted him to do just that, the difference is he's paid £2m a year (or something around there) to make the right decisions you aren't.
Well as you are not getting paid 2 million a year maybe its not even worth listening to your opinion or comments based on that remark?
Left back wasn't the problem against wolves, centre mid was
Left back was also a problem, Clark was getting run ragged by Kightly.
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Quote fail?
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For weeks though Warnock has been a liability, he fully deserved to be dropped. Would anyone ever of thought without Clark in the center we would have missed him as much as we did against Wolves? Missed yes but really that much.
McLeish must get credit for making the change which enabled Clark to return to center bringing on Warnock and moving over Albrighton to stop Kightley from playing. Also credit given for keeping Keane on the pitch when many thought he looked shot. Not a bad bit of management really second half.
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For weeks though Warnock has been a liability, he fully deserved to be dropped. Would anyone ever of thought without Clark in the center we would have missed him as much as we did against Wolves? Missed yes but really that much.
McLeish must get credit for making the change which enabled Clark to return to center bringing on Warnock and moving over Albrighton to stop Kightley from playing. Also credit given for keeping Keane on the pitch when many thought he looked shot. Not a bad bit of management really second half.
Question is, would he have done it if Gabby wasn't
ill?
He continually fails to make tactical subsistutions then when he does decide to change it, he leaves it too late.
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For weeks though Warnock has been a liability, he fully deserved to be dropped. Would anyone ever of thought without Clark in the center we would have missed him as much as we did against Wolves? Missed yes but really that much.
McLeish must get credit for making the change which enabled Clark to return to center bringing on Warnock and moving over Albrighton to stop Kightley from playing. Also credit given for keeping Keane on the pitch when many thought he looked shot. Not a bad bit of management really second half.
Question is, would he have done it if Gabby wasn't
ill?
Yes, i think he might have taken Gardner off.
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We don't know do we. All I'm saying is when he gets it right he deserves credit as much as he deserves questioning when he gets it wrong.
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box and all its trappings.
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box and all its trappings.
Reporting to the club and banned for slating the manager or saying stuff we don't like? (I've no idea what they said, btw, but I can guess)
That doesn't sound like the Villa way to me.
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Clark s a good footballer but he lacks pace, he can get away with playing LB as long as he is not up against someone that is quick,
You can get away with a lack of pace at CB if you are very good at reading the game, the only place where Clark can play to his full potential is defensive midfileld
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box and all its trappings.
Maybe the club should take the North Korea approach?
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http://www.eplindex.com/9035/premier-league-passing-trends-2011-12.html
The above link has some interesting stats on the comparative success rates, in terms of passing, of premier league sides. We're right down the bottom!
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http://www.eplindex.com/9035/premier-league-passing-trends-2011-12.html
The above link has some interesting stats on the comparative success rates, in terms of passing, of premier league sides. We're right down the bottom!
apart from the first stat out of 4 matt where we are in bottom 3rd, in the other 3 it doesnt look too bad!
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box and all its trappings.
What a draconian attitude, just because he doesnt share your opinion of mr mcleish.
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box and all its trappings.
Reporting to the club and banned for slating the manager or saying stuff we don't like? (I've no idea what they said, btw, but I can guess)
That doesn't sound like the Villa way to me.
It's the Manure way.
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We will never know what AMc would have done had Gabby not cried off. But SOMETHING had to be done to stop Kightly and it was obvious Clark was struggling especially as he had little frontal cover.
However, I didn't think of the solution and I give the Manager credit. It took Warnock to return to some form and he did.
Anyway, speaking as a bloke who is not a fan of the Ginger one - in this case I give him deserved benefit of the doubt.
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I'm not the biggest AMC lover in the world, but he identified the problem and made the changes, so, Ok, Gabby was ill, but he made the change and shuffled the pack and got the result. Fair play to him. I think that might have made a few people sit up and take notice that he does actually watch the game.
Can't remember MON making too may effective changes.
I do miss Martin's take off Shorey and put Harewood on and move the whole team around.
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It's one we can debate for ages:
Moving Clark from a midfield role that he's performed very well in for weeks
Dropping an out-of-form Warnock
Playing Clark, not a regular left-back, against a side with two lively wingers
Putting Gardner in for his full debut
The switch at half-time, forced though it was upon him
There are all sorts of plusses and minuses in there, but at least there was some decisive action at half time and it worked!
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Thing is, if he had made that half time switch and Warnock had had a mare and we lost, the fact Gabby was ill and the change was forced on him wouldn't be accepted as a defence by his critics.
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It's a difficult situation, some fans will not be won over. No matter what.
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It seems to me that with Gabby ill and Ciaran not looking comfortable at full back ( and i thought he may have done a job there, but he is definately a central player) there was far too much room for Kightley to play, especially as he ws back in the team and desperate to make an impression. So at half time AM had to change something. we would all have been happy at Warnock being dropped as he has been poor, but he is a capable right back when he plays well, so to shuffle things around was an intelligent, and successful, decision. Thank goodness Warnock gave a good performance.
I think we have a potential gem in Clark, either in central midfield or probably at centre back, and any lack of pace is offset by his intelligence. AM is giving the boy a run; how many times did we cry out for MON to give our good young players a run in the team?
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there was some decisive action at half time and it worked!
Isn't that enough?
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I think so. That's why I said it.
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Just as one defeat doesn't make a manager rubbish, one victory doesn't make him good enough. As for the specifics of the change which worked, of the changes of his that have worked a decent number could be said to have been forced on him. I'm not saying he would have made him, just that many of the managers who are good at making these changes are seldom overshadowed by doubt.
I'm still not totally convinced, though the last game was fun and a bit mental, so more of that and I won't even mind if he's tactically very there. Just as long as it's a) successful, b) fun or c) both, I'm happy.
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That's about where I am too, Monty. Sometimes it's nice to take a break from worrying and just enjoy Robbie Keane lashing one into the top corner in the final minutes.
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Today's Guardian football weekly podcast contains a good 10 mins discussion of the
Villa-Arsenal game, including one of the journos having a right old go at McLeish.
What does that pillock know about Villa? We see every game. He goes when allocated. These people need reporting to the Club so that they get barred from the Press Box
and all its trappings.
What a draconian attitude, just because he doesnt share your opinion of mr mcleish.
If Dalglish passes comment on us, he is a twat. So is this reporter, by the sound of it.
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him. It is probably something that McLeish doesn't care about. He might just ask him to repeat it next time he sees him.
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Good idea. That's what some clubs do to journalists from local newspapers, until the journalist plays ball and ends up churning out a series of lame PR pieces, not a hint of any constructive writing whatsoever.
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him.
And look utterly pathetic.
Should journalists only be allowed to write positive things?
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him.
And look utterly pathetic.
Should journalists only be allowed to write positive things?
A lot of the posters on here who comment on the Villa don't go to the games, are you going to ban them too when they don't say something favourable?
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As I commented on the nextgen thread, does anyone else think AM is the manager to take the club forward when you see the reserve and youth team passing the ball and moving around. The idea of those teams is to make the progression into the first team.
The reason I don't think Bannan has quite gone on to cement a first team spot is because of the players in the first team. He's used to playing in teams that pass and move into positions to recieve passes, and rightly so. However, our first team doesn't do this, when perhaps it should be as we've got players coming through who are capable of it.
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There's less to lose in the youth & reserve teams I suppose? meaning there is probably more freedom on the pitch... just a thought...
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him. It is probably something that McLeish doesn't care about. He might just ask him to repeat it next time he sees him.
I'm pretty sure the guy is a primarily music journalist who happens to appear on the football podcast when there is QPR related stuff to talk about. I'd be very surprised if the guardian pays for his season ticket at QPR. His response was to the perceived anti-football being played by Villa. I'd have to check the post match thread but I'm pretty sure that was a view expressed by a few Villa fans and I'm certain it's a view expressed every time we play against Stoke.
He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way. People need to stop being so precious.
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him. It is probably something that McLeish doesn't care about. He might just ask him to repeat it next time he sees him.
I'm pretty sure the guy is a primarily music journalist who happens to appear on the football podcast when there is QPR related stuff to talk about. I'd be very surprised if the guardian pays for his season ticket at QPR. His response was to the perceived anti-football being played by Villa. I'd have to check the post match thread but I'm pretty sure that was a view expressed by a few Villa fans and I'm certain it's a view expressed every time we play against Stoke.
He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way. People need to stop being so precious.
Agreed, Dants. We don't want to be too instantly bristling at any outside mention of us which isn't shouting praise. That way lies madness or, even worse, Liverpool.
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McLeish's reputation for dire football is not limited to a few Villa supporters on internet messageboards.
He's known throughout the country for it.
That said, he has given Ciaran Clark a break, seems to have got something approximating decent form out of Ireland and we look a threat on the road again. So he's not the complete duffer some make him out to be.
I did think a while back that he'll always do just enough to stay in the job (at least this season) and that's how it seems to be playing out. After that, I'm genuinely torn as to whether I want to see him reshape the defence and bring his own lieutenants in, or quietly moved on in the summer with another payoff (but hey, it's only money. So long as we're not wasting it on optional extras like playing staff).
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The reporter is paid to pass comment on us, though, that's the difference.
...and enjoy the Club's hospitality. I know that I can't win on this. However, I would do a Fergie and ban him. It is probably something that McLeish doesn't care about. He might just ask him to repeat it next time he sees him.
I'm pretty sure the guy is a primarily music journalist who happens to appear on the football podcast when there is QPR related stuff to talk about. I'd be very surprised if the guardian pays for his season ticket at QPR. His response was to the perceived anti-football being played by Villa. I'd have to check the post match thread but I'm pretty sure that was a view expressed by a few Villa fans and I'm certain it's a view
expressed every time we play against Stoke.
He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way. People need to stop being so precious.
Agreed, Dants. We don't want to be too instantly bristling at any outside mention of us which isn't shouting praise. That way lies madness or, even worse, Liverpool.
A bit like nobody was bristling at the Radio WM presenters.
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He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way.
He's either got a very good memory or he's talking out his arse. My guess is the latter.
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He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way.
He's either got a very good memory or he's talking out his arse. My guess is the latter.
He's probably talking about the period between 2007-09 when we looked like CL candidates and scored 71 goals in one season.
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I tend to read this site a lot without logging in. At half-time my despair nearly drove me to log in to call for Mcleish's head there and then. Of course by full time things were different. As for the tactics I do think we got a little bit lucky with the half-time switch but we may have still won it anyway. What I did think was a poor move was bringing Bannan on. Nothing against wee Barry but Wolves played with two wingers, and were looking to pepper us as the game went on with the ball in the air. What McLeish thought Bannan could contribute at that stage was beyond me. So lucky (ish) at h/t and got away with one at the end too.
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Hope the "dropping" of Warnock last week has given him a new lease of life. And Mcleish may well of played his cards very well. Mcleish seems to have started to have a more attacking philosophy in recent games and with the inclusion of Keane and Clark think the side looks more balanced .....
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For those that have experience of AM managerial career, before he moved to 'those that shall not be named', what was his style of football then?
Please do not relate paper articles, (we all know how they are perceived), actual comments from anyone who followed the teams he managed would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Don't let a couple of better performances fool you, he is middle table mediocrity at best. At worst he will relegate us at some point.
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He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way.
He's either got a very good memory or he's talking out his arse. My guess is the latter.
He's probably talking about the period between 2007-09 when we looked like CL candidates and scored 71 goals in one season.
Yeah, we were brilliant at free kicks and corners, at least for a while. Still couldn't pass wind though.
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Don't let a couple of better performances fool you, he is middle table mediocrity at best. At worst he will relegate us at some point.
With all due respect, whilst your second and third statements might well be true, if we are not to take into account improved performances when judging him then it would seem a little harsh. It would mean that whatever he did we shouldn't ever be happy because it would disprove the original thought that he's crap. If performances improve and results improve over the rest of the season then surely that's a good thing?
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He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way.
He's either got a very good memory or he's talking out his arse. My guess is the latter.
He's probably talking about the period between 2007-09 when we looked like CL candidates and scored 71 goals in one season.
What a great two weeks they were, 15 goals in the games.
We scored 15 in the games.what a great two Weeks they were
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Sorry, trying too post from the phone.
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Can I just say I thought they were a great two weeks as well.
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He also said that he had a soft spot for the club, stating that they're (historically) known for playing the right way.
He's either got a very good memory or he's talking out his arse. My guess is the latter.
He's probably talking about the period between 2007-09 when we looked like CL candidates and scored 71 goals in one season.
Yeah, we were brilliant at free kicks and corners, at least for a while. Still couldn't pass wind though.
I'm sure a lot of people would give their left arm for us to be at least half as good at set pieces now as we were then.