McLeish could be the manager to take this club forward

[Clampy]

I think some fans have voted with their feet, an appointment as controversial as the one we made was always going to make up the minds of people who were wondering if to part with £500 and the standard of the football this season might deter a few more. The away support is still fantastic though.

[Risso]

The argument that there are still plenty who are going through thick and thin is entirely spurious.

How is it? It's a statement of fact so cannot be spurious.

Crowds are down but plenty of people are still going. There was a claim made that "the fans" were staying away when that's true for only some fans, plenty of others will keep going because they see supporting the team more than just turning up in the good times. That's why some other fans get taunted with "where were you when you were shit".

It's spurious because I imagine that your definition of 'plenty' will differ from that of Lerner when it comes to counting up the match ticket revenue.

[hawkeye]

The only clubs suffering a bigger drop in attendancies are Blackburn, Wolves due to Ground Improvements and Everton which is minutely worse than ours, The club are having to discount tickets and are phoning people up to find out why they are not attending.
There is a problem, the Club obviously realise there is a problem.

The club is in decline, there is no doubt about that.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Hutton, I don't rate but what do you expect for £3m or £4m?

Or, if we only have limited money to spend how about not just limiting ourselves to Tottenham's reserves?

Newcastle signed Santon, an Italian international who'd played more than 50 games in Serie A by the time he was 20 for £5m. Maybe looking further afield than London might mean we get better players for better prices rather than lamenting our own inadequacy.

Can't argue with that, Dave. It does make you think what the hell has happened to Hutton since he joined Spurs and why anybody would pay £4m, nevermind the £9m Spurs paid. McLeish obviously knows him well from their time at Rangers but I'd rather see Carlos or Lichaj at right back that Hutton.

[Chris Smith]

I'm not trying to argue that crowds are anything other than disappointing. My point was against the phrase "the fans" when it's only "some fans".

[pauliewalnuts]

I'm not trying to argue that crowds are anything other than disappointing. My point was against the phrase "the fans" when it's only "some fans".

So, basically picking on a semantic point as a way to ignore the context of the post.

Yes, strictly speaking, "some" fans rather than "the fans" have voted with their feet, of course - the ground would be empty if the latter were the case.

From the minute we appointed McLeish - rightly or wrongly - it was going to be difficult to sell season tickets and match tickets. Not just because of where he came from, either, but because he's got a proven record of relegation and mediocrity.

It wouldn't have been markedly different had we appointed Martinez, either, perhaps not quite so bad, but not a great deal better, either.

The club have stated their ambitions in the appointment, and people have reacted accordingly. You're always saying that we're set out to be a mid table club and that's what we are. That isn't a message that shifts many tickets, nor will it ever be.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.

[pauliewalnuts]

You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.

It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.

The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.

I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".

No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.

[Somniloquism]

From the minute we appointed McLeish - rightly or wrongly - it was going to be difficult to sell season tickets and match tickets. Not just because of where he came from, either, but because he's got a proven record of relegation and mediocrity.

It wouldn't have been markedly different had we appointed Martinez, either, perhaps not quite so bad, but not a great deal better, either.

I would say that there are some numbskulls who would have looked at where he came from and used that as an excuse, as shown in the video posted in the demo thread. But most would have only taken the past brand of football rather then where it was played as the issue.

As for Martinez, a lot of people defending the McCleish appointment, especially his brand of football used the argument "imagine what he could do with better players". That argument could also be used for Martinez. He has a style of play that can be more entertaining and attacking although he can't organise a defence for toffee.

[hawkeye]

You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.

It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.

The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.

I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".

No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.

Spot on, Lets look at thier strategy
Appoint MON, The charecter appointment, give him total control over the Bank Account and then realise he had over commmited the clubs finances, an arguement he walks. Dither with Booby Mac,
Appoint Houlier, a more technical manager with the intent to introduce a style of play and build a playing ethic, A PR disaster with a health problem and an assistant with man management defiences.
Then they cant work out what to do, Hughes? no, Martinez?No Ok lets find the most contreversial appointment with a track record of relegation and agricultural football, enter Mcliesh
You could not make this stuff up, it demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding and strategy. Mcleish is not the cause of our problems merely a sympton of the inept way the club is being run.

[caster troy]

The crowds are poor, and we need to remember a lot of people had already renewed in the summer before McLeish was appointed. How many will decide not to bother come this summer? We could see a huge drop based on the season ticket holders I've spoken to.

[Risso]

You do have to wonder, despite being the 19th richest club in Europe, a squad full of internations, nobody wanted to manage us other than McClaren and McLeish. I can only think it was the mandatory 'Premier League experience' written into the job ad.

It was a brainless thing to make a key requirement, and a mistake they made twice.

The other thing I hear the club saying is that McLeish is a good person to talk to, as if that's some kind of qualification for the job. Give me a miserable up-his-own-arse c*** like Ferguson who gets results any time.

I just can't understand how a process that ends up with the appointment of McLeish is based on any form of assessment which goes beyond "he's prepared to do the job with no money to spend".

No wonder they disappeared from the forums so quickly.

Exactly.  We had the General with his "the intention is still to finish 4th, sorry I meant 5th, my finger slipped while I was typing." and "imagine what McLeish will do with proper backing from a manager like Randy."  Utter, utter, utter bollocks.

[pauliewalnuts]

The crowds are poor, and we need to remember a lot of people had already renewed in the summer before McLeish was appointed. How many will decide not to bother come this summer? We could see a huge drop based on the season ticket holders I've spoken to.

I think there will be a lot of people who can't afford to renew under any circumstances as the recession bites, and there's not a lot we can do about that.

I also think there are a lot of people - I'm going to be one of these when my Mrs gets made redundant - who could scrape and save and find the money from somewhere, but are going to have to be convinced they're doing the right thing as it means going without things elsewhere.

These are the people we need to worry about - those in the former group, we can't do anything about.

If Randy had been controlled by some malevolent force during the summer on a mission to reduce attendances as much as possible, I struggle to think of a more evilly brilliant course of affairs than selling our best players, appointing McLeish, and telling all and sundry we've got no money to spend.

If there's no money, then there's not a lot to do about that, but really, what a way to run your business, to manage to cook up a state of affairs like that.

[hawkeye]

Oh i remember getting grief when I quoted Churchill , you can alllways rely on Americans to make the right decision when they have exhausted every other possibilitiy.

[Somniloquism]

Spot on, Lets look at thier strategy
Appoint MON, The charecter appointment, give him total control over the Bank Account and then realise he had over commmited the clubs finances, an arguement he walks. Dither with Booby Mac,
Appoint Houlier, a more technical manager with the intent to introduce a style of play and build a playing ethic, A PR disaster with a health problem and an assistant with man management defiences.
Then they cant work out what to do, Hughes? no, Martinez?No Ok lets find the most contreversial appointment with a track record of relegation and agricultural football, enter Mcliesh
You could not make this stuff up, it demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding and strategy. Mcleish is not the cause of our problems merely a sympton of the inept way the club is being run.

The MON appointment was made / recommended by Doug so they can't be blamed for that appointment, although obviously allowing him complete reign on transfers was an amateur mistake. As for the "Booby Mac" dithering, having a manager walking out at that time was always going to make it hard to get someone in straight away. I won't argue with too much more though, although it would have been interesting what a second season of Houllier would have brought. No Collins, No Warnock, No Hutton, possibly Cabaye.