Darren Bent

[Monty]

It's an old argument on here, but I personally think the 'hoof' (if ever there was a word to be banned on H&V, that's it!) is a symptom of the lack of movement from the midfield, not least in part due to his inclusion of Emile in that midfield.  It's no coincidence that our recent better play has come with Clark playing as a deep lying midfielder, thereby providing a passing option we didn't have previously. 

So I think it's at least partly personnel issue, but I'd like to think they've got more used to what's being asked of them and we're slowly getting better at it.

Well the fabled hoof (notice I didn't use the word! ) is more indicative of a problematic overall way of thinking which is fundamentally territorial. The logical extreme of this way of thinking is POMO and all that Charles Hughes abomination of twenty years ago. I'm not saying that Eck subscribes entirely to that, but if he wants us to play possession football he has to understand that that is totally at odds with 'hitting the striker early'. We have played better football of late, noticeably since Heskey went off at half-time at Stoke - but had Heskey not been injured it's not terrible to assume he would have played in the next few games where the football improved with Ireland in the midfield.

This is my major problem - it all seems to be by chance rather than design, he doesn't seem to have an entirely consistent way of doing things (his interviews are never promising either - his lowest ebb for me was when he said "the passing was poor, which I can't do anything about), and whether something goes well or badly it doesn't seem to matter to how he thinks. He doesn't appear to be very evidence-based in his thinking, is all I'm saying.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I don't believe Randy will not back Alex this window. It makes no sense I'm convinced we will spend biggish money. Otherwise he's just leaving the guy out to dry.

I agree, but think it will be in the summer window.  If wages is our issue then the players reaching the end of big contracts give both McLeigh and Randy room to move again, but not until they go.

If that isn't the case then he really has left his manager up shit creek!

The other issue is the number of elderly kids we have in the squad. This season is all about accesssing their real value and whether or not they can step up a level before we go splashing millions in the transfer market. By my count we have nine (ten if you now include Enda Stevens) players that are in that catagory. We're all very proud of our youth academy but the reality is we need to give these players a chance if they're showing real potential.

So far I'd say Clark and probably Albrighton look like they will make the step up. I'm still undecided on Bannan and Delph, I'd like to see both in more advanced roles, neither are defensive midfielders, much more box to box players. Herd looks like he could be useful and Eric Lichij was looking the real deal before he got injured. Gardner hopefully will be given game time and despite his age, looks and sounds like a gem. I've almost given up on the Fonz, whilst Weimann I imagine will get more chances from the bench this season.

I'd guess Randy Lerner is reluctant to put his hand in his pocket to bring in more Habib Beye's and Heskey's to fill the squad, at least until we know the true worth of what we already have. Saying that, if a real quality player at the right age did become available, it wouldn't surprise me if we went in for him. I think John's right though, it will probably be the summer before we see any real activity in the transfer market and we can expect quite a few of the nine leaving the club.

[KRS]

Ok so we're 5mths and over 20 games into AMs tenure at VP and he still doesnt know what tactics and formation/pattern of play best suit the players at his disposal. Even though I still dont see him as "Villa manager" when he's interviewed, I want him to succeed and get results for Aston Villa so prepared to give him time but he really needs to start to make things click and we need to see both improved results and performances in the second half of the season regardless of how much financial backing he gets from Randy this transfer window.

In other news, a miserable looking AM has just interviewed on SSN...apparently the deal for Keane is 50-50 and Bent is not for sale. He correctly identified Bent as a prolific goal scorer that we will need to push us up the table. If Bent is sold then I believe that it will be a matter taken out of his hands and beyond his control.

edit: in future "HOOF" shall be termed as "hopeless long ball clearance"...or "Stoke"

[Concrete John]

Heskey in midfield is a baffling one.

However, some things happen by chance in football.  I remember Mourinho having to play the 4-3-3 system he had some much joy with at Chelsea due to injuries, for instance.  I don't care how he gets there as long as he finds a system that suits and is successful.   

[Monty]

Heskey in midfield is a baffling one.

However, some things happen by chance in football.  I remember Mourinho having to play the 4-3-3 system he had some much joy with at Chelsea due to injuries, for instance.  I don't care how he gets there as long as he finds a system that suits and is successful.   

Really? I always thought of that Chelsea system as one of the most thoroughly planned tactical systems in living memory. The squad, for instance, consisted mostly of like-for-likes Mourinho could throw into the first team without changing the system. And yes, while I don't mind how he'd reach a system which works, I'm still not so sure he'd identify the correct reason why any given system would work and would be prone to changing it for the worse.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Ok so we're 5mths and over 20 games into AMs tenure at VP and he still doesnt know what tactics and formation/pattern of play best suit the players at his disposal.

I don't think any of us do. The problem is accomodating both Bent and Gabby, which leaves the problem of who do you leave out whilst ensuring you play to the strengths of Bent and provide him the type of service he needs. Unless we provide that service, he may as well not be there, which is a complete waste.

[Concrete John]

Heskey in midfield is a baffling one.

However, some things happen by chance in football.  I remember Mourinho having to play the 4-3-3 system he had some much joy with at Chelsea due to injuries, for instance.  I don't care how he gets there as long as he finds a system that suits and is successful.   

Really? I always thought of that Chelsea system as one of the most thoroughly planned tactical systems in living memory. The squad, for instance, consisted mostly of like-for-likes Mourinho could throw into the first team without changing the system. And yes, while I don't mind how he'd reach a system which works, I'm still not so sure he'd identify the correct reason why any given system would work and would be prone to changing it for the worse.

I think the style of play (defensive strength, organisation, big man upfront and ability supporting him) was maybe not as hap hazard as the formation, but I do remember them playing 4-3-3 due to injuries and then sticking with it as it worked so well.

That was during his first season, so I'd imagine all subsequent buys by him were to fit into that way of playing.

[Chris Smith]

In any case how many different ways of playing are we going have to adopt in order to get the best out of him, Bent, Ireland, Albrighton and Gabby? It's a team game and the players have to fit into that, not the other way round.

Blimey, you really do have the same tactical nouse as MON.  Saying 'that's the way I want to play and the players will just have to fit in to it' is how you end up with midfielder/centre halves playing right back/left back, etc.

Surely a manager's primary objective is to get the most out of the players at his disposal and I don't see how you can do that without playing to their strengths?

That really is a very poor attempt at an an argument and despite your astonishing argument Martin O'Neill has worked all of his life in professional football, to think he has less tactical nouse than any of us is ridiculous.

The strengths of our players are not necessarily complimentary so by adjusting to suit one it might not be playing to the strengths of another. That's why it's always said that you judge a manager properly when he has his own players. As John points out above, we've got a collection of players but they weren't bought with any consistent policy to underpin it. McLeish has therefore had to make do and mend after losing 6 first team regulars in the summer. Every manager would have faced similar problems in trying to create a team from that.

[KRS]

Ok so we're 5mths and over 20 games into AMs tenure at VP and he still doesnt know what tactics and formation/pattern of play best suit the players at his disposal.

I don't think any of us do. The problem is accomodating both Bent and Gabby, which leaves the problem of who do you leave out whilst ensuring you play to the strengths of Bent and provide him the type of service he needs. Unless we provide that service, he may as well not be there, which is a complete waste.

The only way to accommodate them both in their natural positions and to get the best out of those 2 players is either the old 442, 352 or 4312. Given the current squad, the best formation IMO would be 442 but we'd need Hutton and Warnock to do a lot of leg work going forward whilst trying their best not to be complete liabilities at the back. Any combination of N'Zog, Albrighton or Bannan should be able to provide decent crosses and service to the forward pair; with a central combination of Petrov and Ireland or Clark providing service through the channels. The key to this is being flexible with or without possession, and whilst we may not be blessed with outstanding talent at the moment, AM needs to install the basics of teamwork, graft, discipline and focus into the players.

[Mister E]

...  AM needs to install the basics of teamwork, graft, discipline and focus into the players.

I agree strongly with this.
Looking at Newcastle last night, Everton against us earlier in the season, Man City against Liverpool on Tuesday the simple theme emerges that if teams relentlessly close down the ball when not in possession and move the ball quickly when in possession they are likely to score goals and keep clean sheets.
It's not a complicated game but there is an enormous margin for error if teams err from the basics.

[London Villan]

...  AM needs to install the basics of teamwork, graft, discipline and focus into the players.

I agree strongly with this.
Looking at Newcastle last night, Everton against us earlier in the season, Man City against Liverpool on Tuesday the simple theme emerges that if teams relentlessly close down the ball when not in possession and move the ball quickly when in possession they are likely to score goals and keep clean sheets.
It's not a complicated game but there is an enormous margin for error if teams err from the basics.

And a the pinnacle of the football pyramid Barcelona are the best example of the pressing type of football.  We struggle to string three passes together before the ball is launched towards Darren Bent!

[KRS]

What really boils my piss is that we havent even attempted to replace Milner, and its no coincidence that things have gone down hill quite rapidly since he left. His graft and work rate are a major missing element in our play, whether that be harrassing the opposition and gaining possession in the middle of the park or supporting and providing an outlet for the forwards. What really really boils my piss is the thought of where we could be now if we'd kept Milner and AYoung with the addition of Bent.

[SoccerHQ]

I agree, Milner has easily been the biggest loss of everyone who's departed in the last 4 years.

[Monty]

What really boils my piss is that we havent even attempted to replace Milner, and its no coincidence that things have gone down hill quite rapidly since he left. His graft and work rate are a major missing element in our play, whether that be harrassing the opposition and gaining possession in the middle of the park or supporting and providing an outlet for the forwards. What really really boils my piss is the thought of where we could be now if we'd kept Milner and AYoung with the addition of Bent.

It's true, though arguably we couldn't have signed Bent had we not sold Milner.

[john e]

What really boils my piss is that we havent even attempted to replace Milner, and its no coincidence that things have gone down hill quite rapidly since he left. His graft and work rate are a major missing element in our play, whether that be harrassing the opposition and gaining possession in the middle of the park or supporting and providing an outlet for the forwards. What really really boils my piss is the thought of where we could be now if we'd kept Milner and AYoung with the addition of Bent.

if all fans played that game, West Ham would have been premiership champions a fair few times