Prem v Bundesliga - Are we doing something wrong?

[Villanation]

Yes but isn't it because there stadiums are massive modern affairs, they earn way more, far less of there total income is taken by the state

Errr, having lived and worked in Germany for eight years in total, I can promise you that this is not true. You pay a lot in unemployment/health/care/pensions insurance in Germany on top of a standard income tax rate that's similar to ours. As an ordinary employee, you end up with somewhere in the region of 55% net after all the deductions. I used to say that you got what you paid for in terms of the quality of healthcare and benefits, but they started to hack away at these during the last SPD (similar to New Labour) government. So now you have the shocking situation where you pay all that money and still have to fork out 10 euro a quarter just to see your GP. Unemployment benefit has been slashed as well from what used to be very generous levels. On the other hand, you don't pay council tax, so the ultimate tax take might work out to be similar once you've added in what we pay here in national insurance and the rest of it.

The main thing is they still have standing almost everywhere (seat prices aren't necessarily cheap in Germany), clubs have a social conscience on the whole and realise that to ensure they're still around in 20 years' time they need to encourage the younger generation to come along. And with the Bundesliga so open, the football's far more interesting.

Yes but is it not he case that the average wage in Germany is around the 30+ euros pa compared to the UK being around the £22.5 area pa, whatever else happens after that comes down to a question of value for money, I know for a fact that when i'm dealing with suppliers over in Germany and speaking to them about labour costs, there employee's are paid far more for comparable positions. As far as I can see the difference is up around the 30% mark in average take home pay.

I do know for a fact that a graphic designer in Germany almost irrespective of the speciality earns far more than in the UK.

I also know for a fact that business is very heavily supported over there in terms of Bank borrowing and venture capital, Banks in Germany are far more pro active than here and interest rates have always been far more competitive.

Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.

Hence.......majority of fans in the UK have paid for there season ticket with a credit card, credit card in this country are massively loaded  interest rate wise hence the cost of ticket and the penalty that comes with it has made it impossible for the average person to buy, whereas in Germany people pay for far more by cash as in France because a) its cheaper and b) not so credit card dependent because there is more disposable income in the system.

That's my point.

[dave.woodhall]

Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.

You don't have to use cards to survive. Too many people use cards to buy luxuries they can't afford and which they've been hyped into believing are essentials.

[5ft811st2 Durham]

Sky almost have their perfect product to sell now. The dominance of a handfull of teams, including the most marketable of all in Newton Heath has created their ideal customer. No connection at all to the clubs only a fascination with success nurtured from childhood through the screen, now parting with money to keep up their support through subscription.

Gary Neville has not been recruited for his media skills but for his identification with the most marketable club, another well considered strategy.

The rest of the Premier League exist as cannon fodder for the rich and powerfull, and while attendances droop for the visit of Wigan and Stoke, they will rise for televised games against the top clubs satifying the demand for atmosphere so craved by the TV execs.

The coverage afforded to the lesser teams is nothing more than lip service to ensure they feel part of the whole shebang, when in reality they are turkeys being plumped up for Christmas slaughter. Live in HD.

While the TV companies pay the money they will call the tune, and there is nothing anybody can do. Apart from refusing to be any part of the whole rotten process. But Sky know damn well that, for many of us, it's a question of loyalty to the club that we have grown up with.

They have the game by the balls.

Brilliant analysis.

[German James]

Germans certainly don't rely on credit so much and therefore tend to have much less personal debt than people in the UK. Most people rent until they are much older than in Britain. I'm 42 and, if I stay here, I might never own a house. I only got a credit card for internet shopping from british websites, otherwise most transactions are done with cash or via electronic transfer. The whole "buy now, pay later" malarky never really caught on here.

The "50+1" rule described in the article is the main difference between the PL and the BL: It stops clubs becoming the personal plaything of oligarchs and sheikhs and means that the supporters are, by definition, much more a part of their club.

If the Premier League is like a reflection of no-holds-barred rampant consumerism, the Bundesliga model could be likened to a more socially aware form of capitalism. Pretty similar to the differences between Germany and the UK in more general terms, it seems to me.

[The Laughing Policeman]

Don't just blame Scudamore and Sky for the state of English football, blame must also fall on the shoulders of the greedy owners of our clubs. The grab it while you can mentality doesn't disappear just because you are a billionaire.
And don't forget that some owners have only jumped on to the Money -Go-Round because it helps to pay off debts in some of their other "money making" schemes.
Arfur Daley is alive and well and in charge of most of our football clubs.

[TopDeck113]

The "best league in the world" nonsense we hear spouted all the time is just that - utter nonsense.

It is without a doubt the best marketed league in the world, but that's a different matter altogether.

Nail on head, Paulie. 

A monstrosity awash with money, but still can't make ends meet.

[Brend'Watkins]

I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.

It's not the only factor but it will have some bearing on it especialy as we also have Rugby in its two forms viying for business. 

I agree the prices are way over the top and are the main factor bearing on reduced attendances but other factors can not be discounted.

I'm not sure that it seriously contributes, either. Italy has a population roughly equivalent to the UK (around the 60 million mark) and yet average attendances here are much lower - 23,940 in Serie A so far this season, compared to 33,779 for the Premier League. Yes, this is only for the season so far, but, in general, attendances are significantly lower here.

Having said that, when comparing it with the Bundesliga, I suppose that the fact that it is the English Premier League - therefore with a population in the region of 51 million - should be considered. The difference between 80 million and 50 million is more significant.

 I don't know for certain but I'm fairly sure that English football has also got significantly more 'meaningful' tiers of divisions than our European counterparts.  I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that in England more people per capita attend football matches than any other European country.  That's a more important and healthy statistic for English football than purely focusing on the top flight as the be all it makes it self out.

[Chris Smith]

I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.

I think Bren's last point is an important one, I remember reading once that the Championship was about 4th or 5th most watched league in Europe. There are six league teams within 40 minutes of my house.

[German James]

I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.

That is childish and incredibly offensive. Are you suggesting I'm some sort of apologist for fascism? Or just trying to be amusing?

[Chris Smith]

I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.

That is childish and incredibly offensive. Are you suggesting I'm some sort of apologist for fascism? Or just trying to be amusing?

Oh deary me, we do take ourselves seriously don't we?

It was just a daft throwaway remark, nothing for you to invade Poland over.

[German James]

I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.

That is childish and incredibly offensive. Are you suggesting I'm some sort of apologist for fascism? Or just trying to be amusing?

Oh deary me, we do take ourselves seriously don't we?

It was just a daft throwaway remark, nothing for you to invade Poland over.

Bastard!
I hate laughing when I'm trying to be all pompous!

[spk]

Scotland and Albania have the highest proportain of people who attend games

[TopDeck113]

Scotland and Albania have the highest proportain of people who attend games

How many of the people who watch games in Scotland, or more specifically, watch games involving two of the clubs in Scotland, have travelled from various parts of the island of Ireland?

[Lizz]

Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.

You don't have to use cards to survive. Too many people use cards to buy luxuries they can't afford and which they've been hyped into believing are essentials.

Quite. The pursuit of instant gratification seems to rule some peoples' lives.

[The Laughing Policeman]

Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.

You don't have to use cards to survive. Too many people use cards to buy luxuries they can't afford and which they've been hyped into believing are essentials.

Quite. The pursuit of instant gratification seems to rule some peoples' lives.

Got it in one Lizz, except maybe I'd change the word from some to most.
Can someone please remind us just how long it took Mr. Saunders to build a team capable of becoming champions of England and despite his sudden departure Champions of Europe?
I know I'm old and my memory maybe fading but I'm sure it took  more than a year.
Sorry folks but if you don't have the patience or the nous to see that what Randy Lerner is doing for our club now is what the majority of the PL clubs will have to do in two or three years time, then may be you should join the rest of the short term glory hunters.