Safe Standing Petition.

[The Laughing Policeman]

Am I right in thinking that it is not against the law to stand in seated areas at a football match?

I'm sure its upto the club and local authorities.

I stood  in L1 for the whole 94 minutes last night and the police and stewards didn't seem to have a problem with it.
But when it came to waving flags whilst the game was going on it was a different story. Apparently the stewards "had a complaint" about them. Who from we will never know , no one in L1 wanted them taken down and they certainly couldn't have been blocking anyones view.
So be warned, in the ever increasing sterilisation of OURNational Sport, flags and banners seem to be in the sights of those who must be obeyed.

[amfy]

It isn't against the law, it's against the ground regulations and licence.

Largely clubs can get away with letting you stand if they can show that they have took reasonable steps to get you to sit down.

I remember going to Bristol City with Preston and the steward asking us to sit down and the other half going mad, saying "We're on the attack, you can't make me sit down!" and the steward saying very calmly in a slow west country drawl. "You're right. I can only ask you to sit down. It's up to you whether you sit down now. I've done my job, I've asked you to. I don't really mind whether you sit down or not""

[Pat McMahon]

Am I right in thinking that it is not against the law to stand in seated areas at a football match?

I'm sure its upto the club and local authorities.

I stood  in L1 for the whole 94 minutes last night and the police and stewards didn't seem to have a problem with it.
But when it came to waving flags whilst the game was going on it was a different story. Apparently the stewards "had a complaint" about them. Who from we will never know , no one in L1 wanted them taken down and they certainly couldn't have been blocking anyones view.
So be warned, in the ever increasing sterilisation of OURNational Sport, flags and banners seem to be in the sights of those who must be obeyed.

You always see big flags with poles at Anfield, and more recently Stamford Bridge, before kick-off.  The flag waving seems very choreographed at both grounds so I assume they have the blessing of the clubs. I can’t say if they are waved during the game though and maybe that is the issue with the stewards at Villa Park – they are blocking the views of the non-existent fans behind the flag wavers. I say non-existent in the assumption that the back of the Lower Holte has not been converted into executive boxes since my last visit v Liverpool in May, and remains a wall of grey roller shutters. Some people seem just happy to have something to complain about, and health and safety laws are the perfect catch all reason to stop most things in a stadium.

[Ad@m]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

Wolves have already backed it.  I'm sure most clubs appart from the biggest will also like to introduce this.

Why? Whats in it for them?

For a start it will inject a bit of buzz into the matchday maybe making more people inclined to go.  More fans can fit into the same space = more sales of over priced matchday crap = more revenue.  The bigger clubs are only really interested in business and corporate and having noisy terraces will spoil the sterile theatre experience.

Average attendances are higher now than they were for the vast majority of time we had terraces which doesn't really support the idea that bringing terraces back will increase attendances.

[itbrvilla]

Even if a limited amount of standing was allowed, thẹ clubs that have recently developed their stadia would most likely not be able to afford the cost of changing the layout of the terracing.
Villa Park on the other hand has the North Stand still awaiting redevelopment. I know the plans seem to have been shelved, but perhaps if the law on standing is changed the new North Stand could be a new Holte End, which would not only be excellent, but would give us a massive capacity, and hopefully cheaper access to the ground.

Why is there this absurd notion that if safe standing is implemented then tickets will be cheaper? To change existing seating to standing areas will cost a lot of money. To redevelop an area like the North Stand it will cost a lot of money whether there are seats there or safe standing areas introduced.
From what I gather safe standing areas will have to have increased numbers of stewards. Safety checks on standing barriers, if we go the way of the German model, will be constant.  It all costs money.
If there is one accident caused by a safe standing area, all of them will be closed. Do you think any club in its right mind would take that risk?
The sooner people realise that it is not just a case of taking some seats out, the better.
If you think you'll get cheaper tickets because you are standing, you probably think that the fall of Gadaffi will bring down petrol prices at the pumps. Think again.

Wolves have already backed it.  I'm sure most clubs appart from the biggest will also like to introduce this.

Why? Whats in it for them?

For a start it will inject a bit of buzz into the matchday maybe making more people inclined to go.  More fans can fit into the same space = more sales of over priced matchday crap = more revenue.  The bigger clubs are only really interested in business and corporate and having noisy terraces will spoil the sterile theatre experience.

Average attendances are higher now than they were for the vast majority of time we had terraces which doesn't really support the idea that bringing terraces back will increase attendances.

But dont we have the marketing of the PL which we never had before?  Germany has the largest average attendances in Europe.

[Rico]

Why is it an absurd notion for us to expect it to be cheaper to stand rather than sit? Back in the day before all seated stadia it was always much cheaper to stand, and if memory serves me well it was where most fans congregated on match days. As for stewarding, I don't recall the Holte End being swamped with stewards. If anything there are far more stewards nowadays. Obviously the cost of converting seats to standing would be expensive and most clubs that have developed their grounds or moved to new stadia would most likely not want the expense of changing back to safe standing, however, Villa Park has not been totally developed, hence the suitability of the North Stand to be made into a new Holte type stand. Obviously this is all hypothetical at the moment anyway, but I feel pretty sure that if an updated version of the old Holte (which by the way was perfectly safe!) was made that is where most fans would watch their football, and those who prefer to sit would have plenty of seats to choose from.

[djbone]

Was going to add my two penn'orth but laughing policeman and amfy have done a great job of putting the case for bringing back some terracing. Establishing the truth about Hillsbrough and citing the example of the German game are key as people have said.
 
The anti-terracing brigade have failed to come up with a single coherent argument to back up their position, beyond blindly tailing the attitudes of 'the authorities' and kindly thinking of the profits of the poor old hard-up clubs. I guess this is to be expected after 20 years of the Sky League and the gentrification of football.

[itbrvilla]

Join the petetion of the Football Supporters Federation - Link

[hilts_coolerking]

I'm not sure there's an "anti-terracing brigade"; personally I couldn't give a monkey's whether people stand or not.  But you're way off track in saying there isn't a single coherent argument to support all-seater stadia: there are plenty in the Taylor Report.  The objections to sitting (as opposed to standing) that were raised then are the same ones being raised now.  As I said before, if the powers that be are even to consider standing areas they're going to need to see some hard evidence that such areas are safer than current arrangements, in the context of British football.  I don't think their first question will be "Does it work in Germany?"

This isn't about "gentrification" of football or the persecution of football supporters - it's about safety.  I totally accept that some fans want to stand up at football matches.  Unfortunately for them, what those fans have to accept is that as things stand their preferences are secondary to the safety reasons set out in the Taylor Report. 

If you're expecting full disclosure of the Hillsborough documents to support the idea that standing is safer than sitting I think you're going to be disappointed.

[Neil Hawkes]

Ladies and gents, if the argument for not being allowed to stand is based on a report that was conducted over 10 years ago, (have no clue on the dates) - then the argument is flawed.

Risk Assessments cannot be based on such outdated information. All Risk Assessments have to be conducted on current criteria.

The petition should insist on a properly conducted and up to date report and recommendation.

[TheSandman]

But dont we have the marketing of the PL which we never had before?  Germany has the largest average attendances in Europe.

Attendances in Germany are high because the tickets are cheap.

[The Laughing Policeman]

hilts_coolerking, you keep on saying that the authorities will want to see hard evidence that safe standing is ok in "the British context" and that they wont just accept the evidence of the German model.
Well the only way they will get the hard evidence in "the British context" is to create safe standing areas at a number of clubs that want them, for a period of say 3 or 4 seasons, then they would have something to analyse.
Just to reiterate.....standing at football matches is safe, poor crowd control and stewarding isn't.

[cheltenhamlion]

When we were in Hamburg we discovered you could buy a season ticket for less than the cost of a replica shirt at their club shop.

[cdbearsfan]

Celtic are looking at bringing in safe standing. They are making a feasability study. If they okay it, and eight out of twelve SPL clubs vote in favour, they would be allowed to do it and presumably at least a handful of Scottish clubs would follow suit.

This doesn't necessarily mean English clubs could then introduce it... it's currently illegal in England and Wales but not under Scots' Law. Still if it was seen to be a success in Scotland it might help the campaign to legalise it south of the border.

[Percy McCarthy]

Many people's objection to standing seems to be purely "It's not going to happen".

It sounds so pompous, gives the impression of absolute certainty when in reality people are only guessing.

I can just imagine these people in other situations. 'Votes for women? Not going to happen'.

'National Health Service? Not going to happen'

'Gaddafi out? Don't make me laugh!'

None of these things would have happened if everybody sat around whining 'not going to happen'.