Hillsborough Disaster petition

[Concrete John]

Any way you look at it, Hillsborough happened because it seemed to be ok to treat football supporters like shit.

That I wouldn't argue about - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

But I've been in crushes getting in and out of the old Holte numerous times as a kid and (thankfully!) not once did anybody lose their lives.  I guess my point is that unless there was a line of police horses behind the crowd driving them into the ground, then there was reckless behaviour on the part of the fans also.

Because lets not forget that fan treatment in the 80s was deplorable, but some fan behaviour also was. 

[dave.woodhall]

Any way you look at it, Hillsborough happened because it seemed to be ok to treat football supporters like shit.

That I wouldn't argue about - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

But I've been in crushes getting in and out of the old Holte numerous times as a kid and (thankfully!) not once did anybody lose their lives.  I guess my point is that unless there was a line of police horses behind the crowd driving them into the ground, then there was reckless behaviour on the part of the fans also.

Because lets not forget that fan treatment in the 80s was deplorable, but some fan behaviour also was. 

They were going into a ground after kick-off. In those circumstances it's only natural to go to the quickest and easiest access to the terrace. Sadly, this was already full and it's pretty certain people had already died in there before the gates were open. 

[hilts_coolerking]

I've said it before but football fans, in general, seem determined to set low standards for themselves.  Less so these days, perhaps, but certainly in the 70s and 80s.  As John says, there's a reason why football fans were treated like shit and it's not simply because one day someone somewhere decided that's how it would be.

It's maybe an uncomfortable truth that the conditions which came about to allow a tragedy like Hillsborough to occur are in part down to football fans themselves.  Not directly on that day, as most people recognise, but in all the instances, big or small, of poor behaviour that preceded it.

[London Villan]

This thread re-appears every couple of years...

On the day the fans weren't to blame. Read the Taylor Report if you want to find the facts... some astonishing ones include...

With the number of gates allocated to the Liverpool fans and the flow through them there was no way all the fans with tickets could have got into the ground from the time the gates opened to kick-off.

No-one knew the the capacity of the middle pen, let alone monitor how full it was.

The previous year a couple of coppers stood at the entrance to the tunnel that led down to the central pen directing fans to other empty pens.  In 1989 none were stationed there... despite all the others mistakes that were made, if that one little procedure had been followed then the day may have had a very different outcome.

Despite this though, some football fans have to take some of the blame for the atmosphere that had developed around the game in the 1970s and 1980s. If they hadn't spent many a year smashing up town, trains, ferries, invading pitches and generally bringing shame on the game then there wouldn't have been a need for fences or indeed the Police's initial thoughts that trouble, as opposed to something very different, was occurring in Leppings Lane.

[Concrete John]

Any way you look at it, Hillsborough happened because it seemed to be ok to treat football supporters like shit.

That I wouldn't argue about - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

But I've been in crushes getting in and out of the old Holte numerous times as a kid and (thankfully!) not once did anybody lose their lives.  I guess my point is that unless there was a line of police horses behind the crowd driving them into the ground, then there was reckless behaviour on the part of the fans also.

Because lets not forget that fan treatment in the 80s was deplorable, but some fan behaviour also was. 

They were going into a ground after kick-off. In those circumstances it's only natural to go to the quickest and easiest access to the terrace. Sadly, this was already full and it's pretty certain people had already died in there before the gates were open.

It's also natural to rush and start barging your way in, which is what I think happened and was a major contributing factor.  Could the police have handled things better prior to this?  Almost certainly, but while they have to take responsibility for that so do the fans who put aside any thought for they fellow fan and crushed those infront of them so they could see a game of football.

As I said before, I see it as 'joint blame' between the police and that section of fans.   

[dave.woodhall]

Any way you look at it, Hillsborough happened because it seemed to be ok to treat football supporters like shit.

That I wouldn't argue about - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

But I've been in crushes getting in and out of the old Holte numerous times as a kid and (thankfully!) not once did anybody lose their lives.  I guess my point is that unless there was a line of police horses behind the crowd driving them into the ground, then there was reckless behaviour on the part of the fans also.

Because lets not forget that fan treatment in the 80s was deplorable, but some fan behaviour also was. 

They were going into a ground after kick-off. In those circumstances it's only natural to go to the quickest and easiest access to the terrace. Sadly, this was already full and it's pretty certain people had already died in there before the gates were open.

It's also natural to rush and start barging your way in, which is what I think happened and was a major contributing factor.  Could the police have handled things better prior to this?  Almost certainly, but while they have to take responsibility for that so do the fans who put aside any thought for they fellow fan and crushed those infront of them so they could see a game of football.

As I said before, I see it as 'joint blame' between the police and that section of fans.   

They didn't 'rush and barge' their way in. Every bit of witness evidence says they walked fairly normally towards the tunnel. They certainly didn't deliberately crush anyone.

[Concrete John]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

[dave.woodhall]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

What then happens when someone behind's you?

[Concrete John]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

What then happens when someone behind's you?

Surely they stop also?  It's only when that body of people press forward into space that isnlt there do you get the tragedy like Hillsborough.

I was on Wembley Way walking back to the tube station after the cup final against Man Utd and despite a huge crowd, and not moving for a prolonged period of time, there was no crush.

[dave.woodhall]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

What then happens when someone behind's you?

Surely they stop also?  It's only when that body of people press forward into space that isnlt there do you get the tragedy like Hillsborough.

I was on Wembley Way walking back to the tube station after the cup final against Man Utd and despite a huge crowd, and not moving for a prolonged period of time, there was no crush.

There was also no fences and, possibly more importantly, you weren't at the top of a flight of steps.

[itbrvilla]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

What then happens when someone behind's you?

Surely they stop also?  It's only when that body of people press forward into space that isnlt there do you get the tragedy like Hillsborough.

I was on Wembley Way walking back to the tube station after the cup final against Man Utd and despite a huge crowd, and not moving for a prolonged period of time, there was no crush.

Went to wigan few years ago and nearly got crushed there at H/T by everyone trying to get a pint or go for a piss.  Was lifted off the floor at one point and couldn't lift my arms either.  Easy to imagine thousands of people trying to get in to the enclosure to view the game which I think was already underway.

[Concrete John]

No question that it wasn't deliberate, but how can 96 people die without major force being exerted?  If you're walking fairly normally you stop when you can't walk any further.

What then happens when someone behind's you?

Surely they stop also?  It's only when that body of people press forward into space that isnlt there do you get the tragedy like Hillsborough.

I was on Wembley Way walking back to the tube station after the cup final against Man Utd and despite a huge crowd, and not moving for a prolonged period of time, there was no crush.

There was also no fences and, possibly more importantly, you weren't at the top of a flight of steps.

Granted, but there was still an element of self control amongst both sets of fans.  And I can't escape the feeling that that control did not exist at Hillsborough that fateful day.

If I can draw a comparison (that'll probably get me into trouble!) if the police cock up the prosection of a criminal and he then goes and commits another crime, does the blame lie with the police or the criminal?  And just to clarify I'm not accusing the Liverpool fans of being criminals.

But by the same token, when they fail to properly police a crowd is that then their fault or that of the crowd if it starts to get out of control?  In my opinion, it's both.     

[usav]

I think as has been said already, one of the biggest factors was not having a couple of police men/horses blocking the tunnel to the central pen.  Had that happened, which was the norm, then this may have been prevented.

Alcohol and fans turning up late were secondary factors, as per the Taylor report - and why alochol to this day has reduced sales inside the ground.

[maidstonevillain]

Dave, you seem to know much more detail about this than I do, so can I ask a genuine question; if there weren't ticketless fans, then what caused the crush that saw 96 football fans killed?  Did the police let fans with tickets into the wrong part of the ground?

Of the many mistakes that contributed, the final one was that were funneled into the area behind the goal, rather than into the half-empty sections to the sides.

Ok lets not go down this route. I had always thought that the crush was caused by fans entering an enclosure they had no tickets for when a gate was opened by the police. If the documents reveal that only ticketed fans were in the ground at the time of the disaster then it seems I have bought the official line/lie.

 the Taylor Report found no evidence of a significant number of ticketless supporters at the ground.

But why were there any, particularly if there were tickets available. Which leads back to the original comment about ticketless fans.

[nick harper]

There was a natural slope down that tunnel which would have increased momentum towards the pen.

CCTV taken at the time shows fans walking through the opened gates not charging in. There would inevitably have been some pushing from behind as the game had already started but that would have been nothing out of the ordainary.

Duckenfield, who was in charge that day, had not reviewed the procedure followed the previous season for exactly the same game. He was completely out of his depth for such a big event which was at the core of the whole tragedy.

Read Hillsborough The Truth by Phil Scratton for a definitive description of events that day.