SSN: "Downing won't commit to Villa"

[Mazrim]

When did this become the discuss Liverpool thread?

Yeah. It's getting a bit tedious now. All this over a failed bid.

[OzVilla]

Agreed, I couldn't give a shit about them, which probably shows how much they've fallen as you used to hate them with a passion. 

[Risso]

Fans of other teams are welcome here as long as they behave themselves, but please remember this is a Villa site.  There are plenty of Liverpool forums to discuss all things Scouse on.

[Redman]

Redman, genuine questions:

How's the "Scouse Not English" thing going?  Do The Spirit of Shankly still push this astonishing piece of cultural revisionism?  What do you think was the motivation behind starting up such a group/campaign?

If I thought it was a genuine question, I'd happily indulge you.

Genuine questions, I assure you.  No worries, though.

Okay, fair enough. I just wasn't sure what to make of the "astonishing piece of cultural revisionism" barb.

I'm not from the city of Liverpool so I don't claim to know the politics inside-out and unlike yourself, I'm no historian.

But I don't think it's difficult to understand why this generation of scousers, (and especially Liverpool supporters) might feel like outsiders in their own country. Liverpool is possibly the most socialist of English cities and built in Shankly's image, Liverpool is a socialist club at heart.

So although Liverpool wasn't the only city to suffer at the hands of Thatcher's government and the right-wing media, it was arguably the city most politically and ideologically opposed to how it suffered.

I also think scousers are culturally a bit different. The ubiquity of the stereotype is testament to that. But it's a badge they wear with pride. They don't identify strongly with the rest of the country and they are perfectly happy to continue looking after themselves and each other.

As for the Spirit of Shankly, "Scouse not English" was never part of the agenda. SoS was formed specifically to get rid of Hicks and Gillett, hold the new owners accountable and work towards fan ownership.

[Redman]

Fans of other teams are welcome here as long as they behave themselves, but please remember this is a Villa site.  There are plenty of Liverpool forums to discuss all things Scouse on.

I better apologise for my last post then. Point taken.

[Redman]

But I don't understand the need for arrogance.

Neither do I. Nor do I understand the need to mistake self-belief for arrogance.

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

[Billy Walker]

Redman, genuine questions:

How's the "Scouse Not English" thing going?  Do The Spirit of Shankly still push this astonishing piece of cultural revisionism?  What do you think was the motivation behind starting up such a group/campaign?

If I thought it was a genuine question, I'd happily indulge you.

Genuine questions, I assure you.  No worries, though.

Okay, fair enough. I just wasn't sure what to make of the "astonishing piece of cultural revisionism" barb.

I'm not from the city of Liverpool so I don't claim to know the politics inside-out and unlike yourself, I'm no historian.

But I don't think it's difficult to understand why this generation of scousers, (and especially Liverpool supporters) might feel like outsiders in their own country. Liverpool is possibly the most socialist of English cities and built in Shankly's image, Liverpool is a socialist club at heart.

So although Liverpool wasn't the only city to suffer at the hands of Thatcher's government and the right-wing media, it was arguably the city most politically and ideologically opposed to how it suffered.

I also think scousers are culturally a bit different. The ubiquity of the stereotype is testament to that. But it's a badge they wear with pride. They don't identify strongly with the rest of the country and they are perfectly happy to continue looking after themselves and each other.

As for the Spirit of Shankly, "Scouse not English" was never part of the agenda. SoS was formed specifically to get rid of Hicks and Gillett, hold the new owners accountable and work towards fan ownership.

Thanks for that, Redman. 

[Mazrim]

I'm not from the city of Liverpool

[VillaAlways]

I'm not from the city of Liverpool

Brummie Red ??

[Dave Cooper please]

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

No, I think it's more that we have previously done much more than just 'crack the top four' within living memory, indeed we finished second when proper football was invented by Sky, and most of us can still remember us winning the Big Cup.

We don't wish failure on Liverpool, we just know that, whatever you think, you're with us now, the onlookers to the Money Cup. You can spend your money on your Hendersons and your Carrolls, but it will only get you fifth at best, and you know it. Rejoice, we're competing for the Europa League, hoorah.

[Redman]

Brummie Red ??

Nah, I'm from Cheshire. Scouse family though. I was born in Trafford though, of all places.

[Redman]

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

We don't wish failure on Liverpool, we just know that, whatever you think, you're with us now, the onlookers to the Money Cup. You can spend your money on your Hendersons and your Carrolls, but it will only get you fifth at best, and you know it. Rejoice, we're competing for the Europa League, hoorah.

You don't know any such thing.

I might be your belief but it sure isn't knowledge.

[Eigentor]

But I don't understand the need for arrogance.

Neither do I. Nor do I understand the need to mistake self-belief for arrogance.

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

No. Maybe arrogance isn't the right word, but you seem to believe that you'll get into the top four because of recent history. I don't think it works that way.

To the second question: No. It's because I believe the top four to be a self-preserving society. Man City managed to muscle in because of tremendous investment. Arsenal may be in danger of dropping out next season. In that case there is a spot that you or Spurs can grab. But honestly I believe Wenger is too experienced to let that happen. But good luck.

(To the mods: I'll stop posting about Liverpool now. Sorry for playing my part in the diversion.)

[Dave Cooper please]

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

We don't wish failure on Liverpool, we just know that, whatever you think, you're with us now, the onlookers to the Money Cup. You can spend your money on your Hendersons and your Carrolls, but it will only get you fifth at best, and you know it. Rejoice, we're competing for the Europa League, hoorah.

You don't know any such thing.

I might be your belief but it sure isn't knowledge.

No, but deep down you know it.
You are clinging onto King Kenny and your owners spending daft cash on average players as proof that you are going to crack the CL places. You might be right, but there's only Arsenal's place up for grabs and you're not the only team fighting for it despite your arrogance.

[Redman]

But I don't understand the need for arrogance.

Neither do I. Nor do I understand the need to mistake self-belief for arrogance.

Is it because Villa failed to crack the top 4 that you project that failure on to other clubs who aspire to do the same?

No. Maybe arrogance isn't the right word, but you seem to believe that you'll get into the top four because of recent history. I don't think it works that way.

To the second question: No. It's because I believe the top four to be a self-preserving society. Man City managed to muscle in because of tremendous investment. Arsenal may be in danger of dropping out next season. In that case there is a spot that you or Spurs can grab. But honestly I believe Wenger is too experienced to let that happen. But good luck.

(To the mods: I'll stop posting about Liverpool now. Sorry for playing my part in the diversion.)

I'm not even sure there is an established top-4 any more.

I look at Liverpool and see a club on an upwards trajectory without the distraction of Europe.
I look at City and see a club also on-the-up but not as much as it should be. Plus first time in CL.
I look at Arsenal and see a team starting to fade, with want-away players and disillusioned fans.
I look at Spurs and see a club standing still (at least for now).
And I look at Chelsea and see a club under new management and a team with an aging spine.

It looks wide open from my vantage point.