Ciaran Clark - now gone

[Matt Collins]

He was great last year and this is really good news

He's still young for a centre half. How many really good centre halves are under 24 in the current game?

[Toronto Villa]

So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?

Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid.  It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?

I agree on the point to an extent, the difference in value between Stones and Amavi serves as proof of that and it happens because of the constant calling for 'experience of this league'.  I'm not convinced that Clark with a few England caps is worth significantly more than he is currently though because he has that experience.

I think a better example is Amavi vs Luke Shaw. Or Amavi vs that kid Arsenal signed from Southampton. Would either have been valued to that level had they been another nationality?

If Amavi had come through the Southampton youth system and had a couple of seasons playing in the Premier League then I don't think his French-ness wouldn't stop his transfer fee being higher than what we paid.

Would Schneiderlin have cost more than the £25m that Man Utd paid had he been English rather than French? Or perhaps more to the point, if they'd bought Schneiderlin from Lyon would they be paying £25m for him, or more likely the £7-8m that we're paying for Ligue 1 players. If it's the latter, that suggests that the price is warped by where their football is played rather than their nationality.

Obviously this is all conjecture, but it's not their innate English-ness that people are playing for, it's the experience they have of English football and the systems that go with it. It just so happens that there are more English players than French players in the youth teams of English sides.

I think the clamour for English players as part of a required quota has driven the price up disproportionate to their value. Luke Shaw was £30m after one season in the PL with Southampton. Calum Chambers joined Arsenal for £16m and hadn't even played in more than a handful of games. Raheem Sterling £49m after really one good season at Liverpool. John Stones is just now a regular at Everton and is being valued at in excess of £30m. I guess my point is how much difference in quality is there between Clark and Stones as an example and if he was a few years younger and English would he be being linked to a big move. I don't know, just interesting to see what has happened to the value of English players.

[frankmosswasmyuncle]

I'm pleased with this.
He seemed to come on a bundle last season...our best CB and potential captain...a number on here, me included, thought him good enough for that role.
If he can maintain, or hopefully build on, his form last season he'll be worth every penny.

[rougegorge]

I think he did much better last season and ahead of Baker. I tend to be harsher on the defenders as they have been generally our Achilles heel, (well apart from when we went ages without scoring) but it must be tougher when losing or being on the back foot becomes more the norm.

He needs to improve distribution and minimise any costly errors, but he was not alone in that department.

[saunders_heroes]

Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.

i

Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.

Well there's a surprise.

Maybe we should have given him away and then signed him up for £7 or 8M on £70K per week, as that seems to be your only marker for whether someone is good enough or not.

No analysis of whether some of his displays have been cause or symptom of our problems.
No acknowledgment of the fact that the run of games where he was paired with Okore (another player you can't stop deriding) was the one time last year it looked like we'd got a defence worthy of the name.

Still, could be worse, you could be scouting for us.

The tone of your reply to me sounds a bit spiteful, God knows why.
As for the content, well our defence has been a mess for a number of years now and all our collection of centrebacks have played their part in it. I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co but if they stay and improve then great, but I doubt they're capable though. Time will tell of course...

[Dave]

I think the clamour for English players as part of a required quota has driven the price up disproportionate to their value.

Again, there's no quota for English players - there's a quota for 'home-grown' players, regardless of their nationality.

It just that in England, a lot of the players who meet that description happen to be English. But if you had two brothers who came through an academy together, made their debut at the same time, performed just the same as each other - I don't think that if one declared for England and one declared for say, the country of his parents' birth then I don't think their transfer fees are going to be particularly different because of it.

[darren woolley]

I'm pleased he's signed a new deal he will only get better.

[clash city rocker]

I rate Clark. He has done well in difficult circumstances. Would be great to have another experienced quality CB for him to learn from.Hopefully with a better team around him this year he will come on a bundle.

[class-of-82]

Ciaran Clark has been through the mill over the last few seasons, but in my view has never given less than his all for the team.
He deserves this deal and I think will one day become captain maybe sooner rather than later and good luck to him if he does.

[Villa in Denmark]

Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.

i

Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.

Well there's a surprise.

Maybe we should have given him away and then signed him up for £7 or 8M on £70K per week, as that seems to be your only marker for whether someone is good enough or not.

No analysis of whether some of his displays have been cause or symptom of our problems.
No acknowledgment of the fact that the run of games where he was paired with Okore (another player you can't stop deriding) was the one time last year it looked like we'd got a defence worthy of the name.

Still, could be worse, you could be scouting for us.

The tone of your reply to me sounds a bit spiteful, God knows why.
As for the content, well our defence has been a mess for a number of years now and all our collection of centrebacks have played their part in it. I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co but if they stay and improve then great, but I doubt they're capable though. Time will tell of course...

Spiteful? Nope - try sarcastic, with a side order of pissed off.

I'm probably posting on a day where I should stay away from fora like this but fuck it, here goes.

For years now, all we've heard from you is an incessant whine about we deserve this that and the other and that Lerner should just keep pouring money into the black hole that has been our finances.

Well you know what.  We we might like to think so but we don't deserve any more than our acumen on and of the field allow for.
The reason we're in a position to do what we're trying to do this summer? Try all the shit we've been through for the last 3 or 4 years.

And then, in pretty much your first post in months, you stick your neck over the parapet and start sniping at a guy who was one of the few bright spots of last year.

My comment about letting him go then signing him for a fortune was because that seems to be precisely how you judge a players worth.  If he hasn't cost £10M+ on £50K per week wages then he must be shit seems to be your mantra.

You've never got your head around that yes, the excesses of the MON years, really have had an impact through to now (exacerbated by the stupid contracts that were handed out under McLeish)

You've never accepted that throwing money at it MON style was only ever going end badly, and to keep doing would just have made a bad situation worse.

Has the defensive performance over the last 4-5 years been acceptable? No
Is that down to the centre backs alone? No
You say "I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co" does that mean all 5 of them? That doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
So who other than Baker and Clark do you want to go?
Vlaar? You finally  got your wish.
Senderos? Fair enough, maybe, depending on injuries.
Okore? One of the brightest prospects in Europe 3 years ago.  Turned down Chelsea to play first team football.  Came back from a serious injury to form the best partnership we've seen in the last 3 seasons (with Clark the guy you definitely want out) The guy who played through injuries with Vlaar because they were the last two who could still stand up, and is now paying the price with rehab after yet another op?

That's why I'm sarcastic towards you.
As to why I'm pissed off.  Got bugger all to do with you and I'm sorry if this feels like picking on you.

[clash city rocker]

Moving swiftly on......will it rain tomorrow ?

[dave shelley]

Moving swiftly on......will it rain tomorrow ?

Well it ain't stopped here all fucking day!

[clash city rocker]

Well we had a nice day until about 6.

[saunders_heroes]

I don't have to justify when I post, and it certainly wasn't my first post in months either so I don't know where you're coming from with that one. I've been consistent with my opinion on Villa over the last 5 years and looking at our league positions over that time certainly doesn't make me regret it
I've been pretty pleased at our buys so far this summer, and I've said so much on here as well. You make it sound like I'm some kind of troll who does nothing but criticise 100% of the time just to wind people up. That isn't the case and I resent you giving that impression.
If I have an opinion on Villa I'll give it. If you don't like it don't read it.

[Villa in Denmark]

I didn't say that you have to justify when you post, but I've certainly not seen your name much over the last few months, which is why it would be relevant if, in amidst a general upswing in humour amongst most posters, even some of our more habitually negative posters, you showed up, pretty much out of the blue with a complete haymaker type swing at a player who was one of the few bright spots last year.

Can't argue that your opinion hasn't been consistent over the last few years.  We don't spend enough, regardless of what we can afford.
I'm not saying you're a troll, but to me you are almost unrelentingly negative, and your answer to everything is spend more money, regardless of what we can afford.
Of course if you've got an opinion you should give it.
That last sentence doesn't quite work does it? To make my mind up I'll have to read it, by which time it will be too late if I decide i don't like it.