Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Matt Collins on May 02, 2011, 08:24:43 PM
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Ciaran's played a lot of games this season. He is clearly very highly rated by players and managers alike. He is very skillful, good on the ball, relatively quick and has a good attitude.
But, he's 21 now. I still really wouldn't fancy putting him in the side at centre back, certainly away from home against any team that's likely to build up pressure. He looks thin and he's not dominant enough in the air.
I was interested that a fairly high proportion of people would have put him above Albrighton in the young player of the year. I can't see that at all.
Interested in others' views on progress. Should we be intending to put him straight in the side at the start of next season? Could he do with a few months in the championship on loan to toughen up? Will he make the improvements over the course of next season if played here and there at centre back? How confident are you he will make it?
I have to say, I was more confident about Cahill at the same age. He was tougher and more aggressive as well as being very good on the ball.
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Saturday showed he's not ready yet
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I agree that he may not be strong enough but I think if we have a top class, commanding centre back next to him that issue is countered.
I'm pretty confident in him, I have to say. I'm not sure if I want him to be an absolutely guaranteed starter though. The problem is that he might well have to be as I don't see us going to get two absolute first choice defenders as Collins and Dunne should be out and they clearly don't rate Cuellar.
I'd still start him way ahead of the chuckle brothers.
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He's played well all season, I think he's ready and I'd pair him with Cuellar
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Well if he could cut out the stupid needless fouls he gives away like the one that led to the first goal on Saturday it would help.
Has anyone come close to his games/ cards ratio ?
Good prospect but he needs to work on getting less yellow cards and giving away less stupid free kicks.
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fuck him off this week, obviously a twat! he was flavour of the month earlier in the season! Oh, and gary cahill was better. Why did we sell him, whose fault was that!
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Agree he needs to cut out the stupid mistakes, but then everybody makes them. He's comfortable on the ball, reads the game quite well given his experience and can put in a good tackle. With him and Lichaj I think we've got half a back line that could see us through many years to come. Throw in Walker and an experienced head to lead the line and we'd be set.
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The lad's going to be a star and he won't be ending up at Bolton.
Not worried about him at all, he just had a poor game on Saturday. It happens.
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The lad's going to be a star and he won't be ending up at Bolton.
Not worried about him at all, he just had a poor game on Saturday. It happens.
Agreed he looks like he's going to be excellent to me. Everyone has bad games.
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The lad's going to be a star and he won't be ending up at Bolton.
Not worried about him at all, he just had a poor game on Saturday. It happens.
talking some sense!
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Someone said on another thread that Clark reminded them of Gareth Barry at the same age. I agree, except I think Clark looks even more accomplished.
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Better player than Cahill. No doubts about him at all. I would have him in contention for a starting place next season but still in ideal circumstances, first replacement for a more experienced pair. Centre halves dont mature until mid to ate 20s at least. Rio Ferdinand was a diamond in the rough at the same age.
He has to be allowed to make mistakes in order to get the player we all hope he'll be.
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He's so calm for his age, you'd think he was 28/29, he just needs a beast of a leader next to him, a Laursen would be perfect, just need to find one now.
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He reminds me of Gareth Barry at the same stage of his career.
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He is like barry, a touch too slow on the turn, most of his fouls and bookings are because of this. I like his attitude, decent with the ball at his feet. He lacks pace and so will need to get very good at positioning to make up for this. A decent prospect with and a threat in the box.
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I really like him i think he will be a top player for us like most of you have said needs a leader alongside him who he can learn from one for the future.
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It's a learning curve for him (same with Albrighton and Delph) great prospect but got to learn to cut out the mistakes and develop that knowledge/experience that you need when you are a top level player.
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Needs to learn to stay on his feet, and at 21 with the football he's played, I would have expected him to be better at judging when to go to ground.
Would suggest he watches a few videos of Paul McGrath to see how to defend and stay on your feet.
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I want to see Samba and Clark at centre back next season.
Blackburn have tightened up in defence since Phil Jones dropped back in there after Nelsen got injured so that's the sort of no nonsense centre half I want Clark learning off next season, not a recovering alcoholic.
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He's played well all season, I think he's ready and I'd pair him with Cuellar
Seconded
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its amaing how when a young player has an indifferent game and he's suddenly not ready yet,
when we put up with an established more experienced player having no end of bad games yet we can find a million excuses for him
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I thought he played quite well on Saturday.
If conceding a foul 35 yards from goal is a big mistake, just about every centre back in the league needs to be binned. It wasn't the foul that cost us a goal, it was the way we defended the free kick. We had three free kicks of our own from better positions and did nothing with them.
If Clark lacks anything right now it is physical presence. No doubt that will come. That and experience apart he looks pretty complete to me.
I rate Clark as a better prospect than Barry at the same age. If he had the luxury of playing alongside Ugo and Southgate, we'd all be raving about our future captain.
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Clark will be an excellent player and I thought he also played very well vs Manyoo in centre-midfield.
UTV
The Doc
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Saturday showed he's not ready yet
Saturday showed none of our players are.
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Clark is one of the genuine success stories of our season. We can pick at faults which was can do with any one of our players, or indeed any player in the world.
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He will fill out over the next few years, get more experience, and I think will be a major player for us. He has some class on the ball, hence the Barry comparisons, the difference being I don't think he will move into midfield but may be the centre back that takes the ball forward for us and builds play (next to an animal who wins everything!).
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Called up to the Ireland squad
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2214626/Aston-Villa-defender-Ciaran-Clark-called-Ireland-squad.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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Fully deserved , the more games he plays the better a partnership with Vlaar will develop- well done ciaran.
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Well done Ciaran.
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Not good enough for me, we will never be strong defensively with Clark at centre back, Baker is ahead in my book.
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Let's hope now that Crapettoni realises that he is better then Championship defenders and he plays in the EPL for a reason. Happy for Ciaran anyhow he is totally ready for it. Lets hope Leavin starts picking Bannan again too.
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Not good enough for me, we will never be strong defensively with Clark at centre back, Baker is ahead in my book.
His last two performances have been pretty airtight, no? I still think he cannot be properly judged just yet because the vast majority of games he played for us have been either at LB or DMC. I agree that Baker deserves more games though.
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Clark has been left out of the Irish starting line up for tomorrows game. MLS player O'Dea is ahead of him!? What a clueless tw*t Trapattoni is. Can't wait for him to f*ck off.
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In one of Trap's few ventures to an English league game he actually chose to go along to the hammering we took off Everton a few weeks back. Clark's performance and sending-off probably planted major doubt in his mind. And doubt is very hard to shift when you get past 50, right?
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Not good enough for me, we will never be strong defensively with Clark at centre back, Baker is ahead in my book.
Was lucky(?) enough to get tickets through work for the Man City game. The seats were next to the directors box and we were surrounded by scouts. Sitting in-front of us were the Dortmund scouts. After chatting through H/t and e/t I can assure you he is rated very highly through out the game!
On a side point, they really liked Gabby as well and have watched him several times but apparently Dortmund wouldn't get anywhere near signing players from England as they reckon they are at least £10m too expensive!
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Clark reminds me of Cahill at the same age. My hope he still reminds me of Cahill when he is mid 20s
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Clark has benver had a full season of games in one position. He has the promise. He needs the match experience. He will be good.
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clark has never been out on loan for first team experience and he has been a bit-part player in a variety of positions over the last few seasons. this is the first time a manager has said to him he's first choice centre back and to make the position his own.
judge him at the end of the season. and that goes for the majority of our young players.
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You also have to consider that a back 4 of Lowton-Vlaar-Clark-Bennett really needs a season together before we will really see the best of it. All 4 are playing their first full season in the Premier League in their given positions. Vlaar is adapting to the Premier League and the other 3 are still learning their trade.
The good thing though is that they could be our back 4 for many years to come.
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Good point. And the keeper.
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Not good enough for me, we will never be strong defensively with Clark at centre back, Baker is ahead in my book.
Was lucky(?) enough to get tickets through work for the Man City game. The seats were next to the directors box and we were surrounded by scouts. Sitting in-front of us were the Dortmund scouts. After chatting through H/t and e/t I can assure you he is rated very highly through out the game!
On a side point, they really liked Gabby as well and have watched him several times but apparently Dortmund wouldn't get anywhere near signing players from England as they reckon they are at least £10m too expensive!
That's a good point re: Alan Hutton. We'd want £2 million, they'd want us to give them £8 million to take him.
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Clark reminds me of Cahill at the same age. My hope he still reminds me of Cahill when he is mid 20s
Quite. But hopefully less injury prone.
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Cahill wasn't injured that much was he unless I'm missing something?
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Just heard Trappatoni moaning about championship players etc, surely Clark is good enough to get in that rabble of a team
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Just heard Trappatoni moaning about championship players etc...
Don't pick them then you c*nt!!
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How can you dislodge such greats as Darren O Dea and Stephen Ward ?
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Just heard Trappatoni moaning about championship players etc...
Don't pick them then you c*nt!!
I didnt pick the team :(
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How can you dislodge such greats as Darren O Dea and Stephen Ward ?
Obviously he aint in there class yet, but time is on his side, give him a chance
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Just heard Trappatoni moaning about championship players etc...
Don't pick them then you c*nt!!
I didnt pick the team :(
That's a shame, you couldn't have done any worse ;)
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Glad he didnt use him, please dont pick him again Trapp. That goes for every other national team out there.
Please dont pick Villa players for your crappy international football.
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The Italian seems to have dragged the Irish team down to the basement. He's not related to TSM by any chance, is he?
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Clark has benver had a full season of games in one position. He has the promise. He needs the match experience. He will be good.
I don't know if he'll make it, but anyone suggesting he doesn't have vast potential doesn't know what they're talking about
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Not disagreeing with you Matt, but isn't that the type of thing you were slating people for posting on the Benteke thread?
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You also have to consider that a back 4 of Lowton-Vlaar-Clark-Bennett really needs a season together before we will really see the best of it. All 4 are playing their first full season in the Premier League in their given positions. Vlaar is adapting to the Premier League and the other 3 are still learning their trade.
The good thing though is that they could be our back 4 for many years to come.
Absolutely agree with this. Hopefully Vlaar's leadership will rub off on Clark. Apologies if this has been said before, but what I think is particularly encouraging is that they all seem comfortable in possession, especially Bennett and Clark, which is something that seems to have been lacking from our defence (and team) for a while. Even our better defenders in recent times; Laursen, Mellberg, Cuellar etc. have been good 'stoppers' but have appeared rushed on the ball.
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I'm a little unsure on Clark now but then again centre half has always been a position where aside from exceptional exceptions, most mature as they get towards their 30s.
I agree Vlaar and Clark does need much more time together but it's looked pretty ropey to me so far and I worry we're still weak against the high ball as we've conceded a few goals already this season from this.
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Trapp out!!!
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I'm a little unsure on Clark now but then again centre half has always been a position where aside from exceptional exceptions, most mature as they get towards their 30s.
I agree Vlaar and Clark does need much more time together but it's looked pretty ropey to me so far and I worry we're still weak against the high ball as we've conceded a few goals already this season from this.
Yeah, hopefully their organisation and understanding will improve with time but I can see your point about the aerial ball. Vlaar in particular seems a bit reluctant to attack the ball in the air. There were a few long balls and crosses early on against Spurs which they didn't deal with, although they did seem to get better at this as the game went on. Making him watch a few videos of Laursen couldn't hurt.
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He'll learn being next to Dunne. Vlaar I mean.
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Dunne should be back shortly to compete for a place with Clark surely?
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yeah I thought Dunne was due back around now. Could certainly do with him.
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Pretty sure I read Dunne isn't back until the new year.
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The Pie Muncher might be back before 2013, might, unless he eats too many eclairs and falls down the stairs in a sugar induced coma.
"It's still niggly with this groin problem at the minute. It's a pain which is just not going away. I was speaking to Richard the other day and he was upbeat.
"It's a shame actually because he wants to get back. He's with the medical team at the minute and getting the best attention there. It's just a bit frustrating at the minute.
"I certainly hope he's available for us this year. We just need to get to the bottom of it to see what's wrong."
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The Pie Muncher might be back before 2013, might, unless he eats too many eclairs and falls down the stairs in a sugar induced coma.
"It's still niggly with this groin problem at the minute. It's a pain which is just not going away. I was speaking to Richard the other day and he was upbeat.
"It's a shame actually because he wants to get back. He's with the medical team at the minute and getting the best attention there. It's just a bit frustrating at the minute.
"I certainly hope he's available for us this year. We just need to get to the bottom of it to see what's wrong."
Do you actually think the pie muncher is someone who will not improve the squad, if not the team? Personally, I think he would do both if motivated
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Surprised it's taking so long to get back, he rarely gets injured and is usually a quick healer when injured as he got back from his dislocated shoulder against Man. City in 10 weeks.
For all his faults, he is still a decent organiser so I think Vlaar or Clark would benefit from that.
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Dunne should be back shortly to compete for a place with Clark surely?
That's what I mean but didn't really expand on it as I was talking about Vlaar but on the Clark thread. I quite like the idea of Vlaar and Dunne together. It'll take a lot of pressure from Vlaar and he'll get his positioning better next to a centre-half who very rarely gets his positioning wrong under the high ball.
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Dunne should be back shortly to compete for a place with Clark surely?
That's what I mean but didn't really expand on it as I was talking about Vlaar but on the Clark thread. I quite like the idea of Vlaar and Dunne together. It'll take a lot of pressure from Vlaar and he'll get his positioning better next to a centre-half who very rarely gets his positioning wrong under the high ball.
I agree, Dunne's positioning is a major strength of his game and this should improve Vlaar, who occasionally has looked a bit lost when we've been under pressure (e.g. Southampton). I'd be a bit worried about the Dunne/Vlaar combo getting caught out for pace against the better teams. However, I suppose this is no more the case than when we had Dunne/Collins in there and if you read the game well enough is not such a big problem.
I think someone mentioned on another thread the possibility of going 3-5-2, which might address this, as well as perhaps taking the pressure off Clark and tightening up the midfield until we get someone with a bit more physical presence in there. I guess you need several fit centre backs before you can try this though!
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I think someone mentioned on another thread the possibility of going 3-5-2, which might address this, as well as perhaps taking the pressure off Clark and tightening up the midfield until we get someone with a bit more physical presence in there. I guess you need several fit centre backs before you can try this though!
Well we have Baker who can come in plus Lichaj, besides CB do not generally need resting. I think the formation could suit us but I'd wait to see what the state of Dunne's mind and midriff is first.
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Left out of the Ireland team for tomorrow night. Darren O'Dea starts again after a woeful performance v. Germany. Unbelievable.
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Left out of the Ireland team for tomorrow night. Darren O'Dea starts again after a woeful performance v. Germany. Unbelievable.
I've never head of this Darren O'Dea, i had to google him. At least it keeps Clark fresh for our game at the weekend.
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Darren O'Dea is a terrible terrible player.
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Trap is very loyal to his misfits over the years. Keith Andrews and Glen Whelan have been the first choice midfield for yonks, despite never playing a minute of premier league football St Ledger has always played and I believe Paul Green was included in the euro squad when he didn't even have a club side!
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Left out of the Ireland team for tomorrow night. Darren O'Dea starts again after a woeful performance v. Germany. Unbelievable.
Good, we cannot afford to have him injured.
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Is Darren O'Dea still with that bird from Hearsay?
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I'd rather Clark didn't play. We need him. Fuck Ireland.
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I'm a little unsure on Clark now but then again centre half has always been a position where aside from exceptional exceptions, most mature as they get towards their 30s.
I agree Vlaar and Clark does need much more time together but it's looked pretty ropey to me so far and I worry we're still weak against the high ball as we've conceded a few goals already this season from this.
Soccer posted this in October. A full 4 months later, and for me Clark has got worse and worse this season in the big moments. He did a lot well yesterday, read the play, got his head on crosses etc, but in the big moments of the game was found wanting. For me Baker and Vlaar should be given a go together next week, as if we though Anichebe and Fellatio hurt us yesterday, Andy Carroll will make them look like small children.
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Just an awful centre-back. Amazing really as many (myself included) considered him the cream of the crop from that successful reserve team. I still think there is a decent midfielder in there but he should never be played at CB again. Complete liability. I can see now why Trappatoni hardly picks him. Italians know their defenders.
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Just an awful centre-back. Amazing really as many (myself included) considered him the cream of the crop from that successful reserve team. I still think there is a decent midfielder in there but he should never be played at CB again. Complete liability. I can see now why Trappatoni hardly picks him. Italians know their defenders.
I agree. I think a midfield role with license to get in the box might suit him best long term. Has a decent eye for goal.
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Yes, time to move position for him, centre back just doesn't work for him.
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Just an awful centre-back. Amazing really as many (myself included) considered him the cream of the crop from that successful reserve team. I still think there is a decent midfielder in there but he should never be played at CB again. Complete liability. I can see now why Trappatoni hardly picks him. Italians know their defenders.
Interesting as I really rated him in that reserve side, led by example as captain as well. I am not certain what has happened to that player I used to see but currently he looks a shadow of that player. I am not certain he will ever recover from this experience to be honest, hope I am proved wrong.
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Lambert won't move him though. He said in pre-season that he doesn't see him as a midfielder and he is too stubbon to change his position. In fact despite being terrible most of the season, he hasn't been dropped once has he?
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Defensive midfield or subs bench is where clark should be - why cant lambert see these things ?
Really pisses me off when the incompetence of the manager costs us week after week.
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if supporters can see Ciaran is struggling bigtime in this position - why can't PL ?
the lad is physically & mentally spent .................didn't Hansen comment on Motd his
physical holding of Victor Anichebe might indicate 'fear' of his opponent ?
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Good Job today Clark. Was fool hardy with the grabbing/holding and a silly hand ball but think he did some great interceptions, headers, and ball play. Keep it up !
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He handled everything that was thrown at him. We defended well today and he was the best player in our back-line. If he's turned the corner after what were a torrid two months, we could have a serious player on our hands.
It's still a big if, but if we stay up a lot of those players like Clark will be going into next season much stronger and much more experienced.
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I wouldn't be surprised if he benefited hugely from the international time he had. Not only did he score, it was a chance to get away from Villa Park just for a couple of days and work with one of the best defensive coaches of the last 30 years. I wouldn't be surprised if Trapattoni (obviously having watched him in the Premier Leauge getting slaughtered every week) had pulled Clark to one side for a bit of a chat about the basics. He certainly seemed much more in control both for Ireland and for us yesterday, and the goal, clean-sheet and win in midweek would have helped his confidence hugely.
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I wouldn't be surprised if he benefited hugely from the international time he had. Not only did he score, it was a chance to get away from Villa Park just for a couple of days and work with one of the best defensive coaches of the last 30 years. I wouldn't be surprised if Trapattoni (obviously having watched him in the Premier Leauge getting slaughtered every week) had pulled Clark to one side for a bit of a chat about the basics. He certainly seemed much more in control both for Ireland and for us yesterday, and the goal, clean-sheet and win in midweek would have helped his confidence hugely.
Trap can't speak english so I doubt he spoke to him too much. A few last ditch crucial blocks and interceptions yesterday but some really poor defending from him too. Fear for him and us against City I'm afraid
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I wouldn't be surprised if he benefited hugely from the international time he had. Not only did he score, it was a chance to get away from Villa Park just for a couple of days and work with one of the best defensive coaches of the last 30 years. I wouldn't be surprised if Trapattoni (obviously having watched him in the Premier Leauge getting slaughtered every week) had pulled Clark to one side for a bit of a chat about the basics. He certainly seemed much more in control both for Ireland and for us yesterday, and the goal, clean-sheet and win in midweek would have helped his confidence hugely.
Trap can't speak english so I doubt he spoke to him too much. A few last ditch crucial blocks and interceptions yesterday but some really poor defending from him too. Fear for him and us against City I'm afraid
There's a Lambert joke in there somewhere.....
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Are you telling me Trapattoni is incapable of training his players with Ireland?
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Are you telling me Trapattoni is incapable of training his players with Ireland?
Not far off it particularly since Liam Brady left the coaching staff
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I've been very critical of him lately, but yesterday was a massive improvement. His reading of the game was much better, his strength and decision making were much improved as well. He needs to continue playing like that.
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He did alright.
I did notice at every opportunity in open play Nolan or Carroll would go infront of him to receive the ball so clearly opposition managers are identifying him as a physical weak link in our backline.
Before people get carried away, there was a scary moment near the end when Carlton Cole easily turned him outside the box. Luckily the shot was typically a back pass.
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Before we write Clark or any of our other youngsters off, ask yourself at what age the following players looked premier league class:
Gardner (23?)
Ridgewell (23?)
Routledge (25?)
Even Cahill was only 'promising' at 22 when sold to Bolton
Even Harry Forrester looks quite promising now too, as does Troy Deeney
I've not given up on Clark, Delph or Bannan yet. Albrighton, Lichaj and Herd I think I have, mind (they're older, and don't seem to me to have the talent. The first three are just very inconsistent)l.
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Was Cahill that much bigger, stronger or faster than Clark at a similar stage in his career?
Clark looks a good/better footballer yet is largely written off. I'm just wondering what or where he is deemed to be deficient to Cahill.
In time, with more experience, do people think he can improve. Using Cahill as an example again, he spent his first full season on loan at Burnley whereas Clark is doing it in the harsh environment of the Premier League.
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Ridgewell looked a total mess during 05/06, giving away a penalty during most games.
Nowadays he's a solid enough fullback, wouldn't shock me if Clark ends up there or in midfield.
Cahil had a lot more potential than Clark has I think even if he dosen't quite look Chelsea quality imo.
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Future club captain imo. How many defenders look liabilities defensively at a young age then by the time they're 27/28 they have cut this out and are solid. It's like Tomkins yesterday, he looked ropey and mad some poor challenges, yet I've no doubt he'll make a decent premier league centre half. Clark has got all the foundations to be a very good centre half in the future. The fact that he has the technical ability to have played midfield shows how much potential he's got also.
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Cahil had a lot more potential than Clark has I think even if he dosen't quite look Chelsea quality imo.
What do you mean by potential though? I remember a game whilst playing for Bolton where Carew destroyed Cahill. I'm basically trying to work out where Clark is lacking or whether it's just time/experience that is needed.
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Cahil had a lot more potential than Clark has I think even if he dosen't quite look Chelsea quality imo.
What do you mean by potential though? I remember a game whilst playing for Bolton where Carew destroyed Cahill. I'm basically trying to work out where Clark is lacking or whether it's just time/experience that is needed.
Quality defenders anticipate, poor or mediocre defenders react. Clark falls into the latter category in my opinion.
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But isn't anticipation exactly the sort of skill you'll gain with experience. It's certainly suggested so if you believe in the 10,000 hour rule and possibly studies of Wayne Gretsky's ability to be in the "right place".
By the way, I'm not saying you're wrong just asking questions from folk who will have watched him more than I have.
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I don't know why but he just irritates me.
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watching Clarke over the last few seasons, I think his personal performances have improved. He has not had much stability alongside him, and gone from having a lot of experience around him, to being alomst the most experienced in less than a year, up against forwards from the most physical top tier in Europe. So, I have patience with him. He works like a trojan too. That doesnt make him a great player admitedly, but when you see Samba, a 12.5 million signing on 100k a week get absolutely dicked the other day by Swansea, then it maybe puts some perspective on it all. I thought he played well yesterday, Andy Carroll is a twat to play against, always in your face, and goes down more easily than the tumbling bear
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He's played 74 games for us now and I can't see much improvement.
Interestingly, he's been booked 20 times, more than 1 in 4. I think that's because he lacks the defenders instinct around decision making. He often gets himself too close to forwards and fouls because he lacks the confidence or ability to read situations. He might be a late developer or need a more commanding partner but I never feel confident about him.
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He did alright.
I did notice at every opportunity in open play Nolan or Carroll would go infront of him to receive the ball so clearly opposition managers are identifying him as a physical weak link in our backline.
Before people get carried away, there was a scary moment near the end when Carlton Cole easily turned him outside the box. Luckily the shot was typically a back pass.
that was horrible defending, got caught flat footed and Cole skated away from him. Again was caught flat footed for the yellow card which in fairness he had to do but he should have anticipated it better.
After being destroyed by getting too close to Anichebe last week, Carroll bought a very handy free kick from him in the second half too. Not sure he is learning all that much.
Tidy footballer at times and in fairness does take up good positions to block shots and intercept crosses. As others have said doesnt anticipate danger enough and unfortunately lacks the pace and strength to recover from poor positioning. Would say the most of his yellow cards have come from getting caught on the wrong side of the attacker and bringing them down. If he just stood back from the play and allowed it to develop more before charging in all or nothing I think he would be a better player.
Wouldnt totally rule him out coming good but if we start next season in the EPL, dont think he can be first choice.
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He did alright.
I did notice at every opportunity in open play Nolan or Carroll would go infront of him to receive the ball so clearly opposition managers are identifying him as a physical weak link in our backline.
Before people get carried away, there was a scary moment near the end when Carlton Cole easily turned him outside the box. Luckily the shot was typically a back pass.
Wouldnt totally rule him out coming good but if we start next season in the EPL, dont think he can be first choice.
To be fair, I don't think he would have been first choice this season had Dunne been fit.
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Would have Baker in ahead of Clark at the moment.
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Not for me on the performance on Sunday.
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Before people get carried away, there was a scary moment near the end when Carlton Cole easily turned him outside the box. Luckily the shot was typically a back pass.
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that was horrible defending, got caught flat footed and Cole skated away from him. Again was caught flat footed for the yellow card which in fairness he had to do but he should have anticipated it better.
After being destroyed by getting too close to Anichebe last week, Carroll bought a very handy free kick from him in the second half too. Not sure he is learning all that much.
Tidy footballer at times and in fairness does take up good positions to block shots and intercept crosses. As others have said doesnt anticipate danger enough and unfortunately lacks the pace and strength to recover from poor positioning. Would say the most of his yellow cards have come from getting caught on the wrong side of the attacker and bringing them down. If he just stood back from the play and allowed it to develop more before charging in all or nothing I think he would be a better player.
Wouldnt totally rule him out coming good but if we start next season in the EPL, dont think he can be first choice.
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Have said for ages now that Clark is always "on his heels" or flatfooted as you say. That means he is that split second in reacting to a situation and therefore is often second best so resorts to fouling his opponent and getting a yellow card. He needs to be on his toes a lot more and try and get a quicker speed of reaction.
Also as everyone has identified, he gets too close to his opponent and because he does not appear to have good upper body strength, gets rolled quite easily. Again, if he was more nimble, as the ball is passed up to the attacker he could get in close to let him know he is there but then immediately back off so that he is in a position to check the opponents movement either side.
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Ciaran Clark is a midfielder most of us know that as a fact. He can play attacking midfield and defensive midfield quite well.
Just because he had a good game on Sunday doesnt mean hes a natural centre half. Hes very much like Liam Ridgewell ,isnt strong enough physically to play centre back.
But no doubt Lambert will persevere with him because Lambert rates him at the back
Which says a lot about the stubborn mentality of our manager.
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Ciaran Clark is a midfielder most of us know that as a fact.
errrrmmmm I don't. We are too limited when he plays in midfield but obviously I must be in a minority thinking that
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Ciaran Clark is a midfielder most of us know that as a fact.
errrrmmmm I don't. We are too limited when he plays in midfield but obviously I must be in a minority thinking that
Limited in what way?
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I prefer him in midfield and if Dunne does play again this season I think he'll be alongside Vlaar with Clark replacing Delph.
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I don't think Clarks good enough in either position to be honest. He lacks the mobility for midfield and whilsts he's a good ball player for a defender, he's average in midfield terms.
He's one of these frustrating players caught between the two. I think eventually, I'm afraid to say, he'll be a championship player in either position. I just don't see him being good enough at CH or CM. A few good goals last season do little to persuade me he can play midfield.
Physically he's not imposing enough at CH and he makes too many errors. I mean the handball for example, which gifted WH a free kick in a good position was extremely sloppy. At this level, at that stage of the game, you just don't do that. He's been dropping bollocks consistently this season though.
If you look at our centre, it becomes patently obvious that Baker and Clark aren't good enough. Personally though, I'd switch their positions from the last game. Baker at CH, and Clark at fullback. Clarks just that bit quicker and is better on the ball. Baker is awful at fullback. Clark may be passable. Actually for the remainder of the season I think Clark is probably our best option at fullback.
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I prefer him in midfield and if Dunne does play again this season I think he'll be alongside Vlaar with Clark replacing Delph.
I suspect Dunne played his last game for us some considerable time ago.
I think he is unable to get over this long term injury and may retire.
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I prefer him in midfield and if Dunne does play again this season I think he'll be alongside Vlaar with Clark replacing Delph.
I suspect Dunne played his last game for us some considerable time ago.
I think he is unable to get over this long term injury and may retire.
You could be right mate. I think i'm in the minority but i've always rated Dunne and believe he has been our biggest loss this season.
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I don't think Clarks good enough in either position to be honest. He lacks the mobility for midfield and whilsts he's a good ball player for a defender, he's average in midfield terms.
He's one of these frustrating players caught between the two. I think eventually, I'm afraid to say, he'll be a championship player in either position. I just don't see him being good enough at CH or CM. A few good goals last season do little to persuade me he can play midfield.
Physically he's not imposing enough at CH and he makes too many errors. I mean the handball for example, which gifted WH a free kick in a good position was extremely sloppy. At this level, at that stage of the game, you just don't do that. He's been dropping bollocks consistently this season though.
If you look at our centre, it becomes patently obvious that Baker and Clark aren't good enough. Personally though, I'd switch their positions from the last game. Baker at CH, and Clark at fullback. Clarks just that bit quicker and is better on the ball. Baker is awful at fullback. Clark may be passable. Actually for the remainder of the season I think Clark is probably our best option at fullback.
Its all about opinions but thinking about it I have come to the conclusion that you are probably right. Clark at left back Baker at centre half.
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I'm starting to think Clark will turn out to be our version of John O'Shea when he was at Man Utd, solid if unspectacular.
He has been at the top of his class for years and has been captain of youth, reserves and played at all levels for England so he must be a decent player. He's still learning though and is quite young in central defensive terms.
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I'm starting to think Clark will turn out to be our version of John O'Shea when he was at Man Utd, solid if unspectacular.
He has been at the top of his class for years and has been captain of youth, reserves and played at all levels for England so he must be a decent player. He's still learning though and is quite young in central defensive terms.
I think his problem has been the lack of a senior defensive partner. I seem to remember Curtis Davies getting into the England squad (only to get subsequently injured) when he had a great run in the side alongside Laursen. Clark has eitehr been the senior player alongside Baker or he's been alongside premier league rookie Vlaar.
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Clark's a left back really. The comparison to Ridgewell is a good one, and he now plays left back a lot these days. Good touch, can pass it and would do better against wingers than big centre forwards so that would be the way forward. Would have to worry less about his atrocious positional sense as well. Don't think he's a midfielder personally.
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Some here see him as a natural midfielder, others think he is a left back while Lambert and the player selieve he should be a central defender.
In ways he reminds me of Gareth Barry until he found his niche in midfield. I think Clark will turn out OK as a centre back, wasn't impressed with him in midfield when he has played there.
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Some here see him as a natural midfielder, others think he is a left back while Lambert and the player selieve he should be a central defender.
In ways he reminds me of Gareth Barry until he found his niche in midfield. I think Clark will turn out OK as a centre back, wasn't impressed with him in midfield when he has played there.
I agree with that. In the long run he'll benefit from the experience of playing in a number of positions but ultimately I see him as a centre back.
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He's not a natural midfielder. He's a natural centre back that is just 23. He was my MOTM on Saturday, his positioning was excellent and cut out most of their crosses into our 6 yard box. Smart defending.
He isn't without his faults but he's a young lad. He's shown as much promise as Cahill did at his age in my opinion, despite being slightly weaker in the air. He'll grow to be a top, top centre half.
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There are a lot of differing opinions here! One thing we agree on, I think, is that he he is good enough to play somewhere!
Where that is only Lambert knows and it appears he has decided its centre back.
He is wrong by the way.
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He's not a natural midfielder. He's a natural centre back that is just 23. He was my MOTM on Saturday, his positioning was excellent and cut out most of their crosses into our 6 yard box. Smart defending.
He isn't without his faults but he's a young lad. He's shown as much promise as Cahill did at his age in my opinion, despite being slightly weaker in the air. He'll grow to be a top, top centre half.
I agree. Most of his faults can be fixed with experience, and the others can be fixed in the gym. He needs to anticipate things better and be a lot sronger.
The main positive is that he's got the right character to succeed. Whatever else you say about him he's not hiding after the run of games we've had, which is very impressive to me.
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I don't think Clarks good enough in either position to be honest. He lacks the mobility for midfield and whilsts he's a good ball player for a defender, he's average in midfield terms.
He's one of these frustrating players caught between the two. I think eventually, I'm afraid to say, he'll be a championship player in either position. I just don't see him being good enough at CH or CM. A few good goals last season do little to persuade me he can play midfield.
Physically he's not imposing enough at CH and he makes too many errors. I mean the handball for example, which gifted WH a free kick in a good position was extremely sloppy. At this level, at that stage of the game, you just don't do that. He's been dropping bollocks consistently this season though.
If you look at our centre, it becomes patently obvious that Baker and Clark aren't good enough. Personally though, I'd switch their positions from the last game. Baker at CH, and Clark at fullback. Clarks just that bit quicker and is better on the ball. Baker is awful at fullback. Clark may be passable. Actually for the remainder of the season I think Clark is probably our best option at fullback.
I agree with what you've said except think that he won't ever make a LB either. He's been shocking when played there, positionally even more all over the place than he is at CB. I just don't think he's PL standard anywhere unfortunately, and comparisons with Barry are well wide of the mark. He makes up for his lack of pace with good reading, touch, timing and positioning way more than Clark could ever dream of.
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There are a lot of differing opinions here! One thing we agree on, I think, is that he he is good enough to play somewhere!
Where that is only Lambert knows and it appears he has decided its centre back.
He is wrong by the way.
You're wrong.
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There are a lot of differing opinions here! One thing we agree on, I think, is that he he is good enough to play somewhere!
Where that is only Lambert knows and it appears he has decided its centre back.
He is wrong by the way.
You're wrong.
I'm wrong.
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You know, I liken him a bit to Aaron Hughes. He was a similar build and as he got older got better and better at centre back, with age and experience. Much like Davies, I think Clark will long term benefit from Vlaar being fit, accustomed to the Prem and playing at full capacity. We saw signs on Sunday of how positionally sound he is at times, and there is certainly a player in there who for me is probably best as 3rd choice centre half, 2nd choice left back and ditto defensive midfield, but would be a regular fixture due to that versatility. He was poor at Everton for the Anichebe goal but responded really well on Sunday. Credit where it is due. If we had a more experienced man fit that could slot in to take some of the pressure off him it would be really great, but we don't at the moment. 2-3 years time he will probably be one of the best in the league, and rationally thinking, young defenders make a lot of mistakes while coming through that more experienced colleagues cover. For Clark, he has not had that luxury this season.
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He was poor at Everton for the Anichebe goal but responded really well on Sunday.
Yet he still got involved in a similar situation with Carroll on Sunday and gave away a unnecessary free kick in a really dangerous area. Someone was saying on the radio after the game (may have been Collymore) that the same players are making the same mistakes in every game and I think that is certainly the case with Clark.
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There are a lot of differing opinions here! One thing we agree on, I think, is that he he is good enough to play somewhere!
Where that is only Lambert knows and it appears he has decided its centre back.
He is wrong by the way.
You're wrong.
I'm wrong.
I'm Spartacus!
Oh wait, no, I'm wrong.
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If he plays, it should be midfield (Not attacking midfield like someone suggested?!). Baker is twice the player Clark is at the back and just continues to improve. Can't stand watching Clark just throw his leg at the ball when he tries to clear it.
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If he plays, it should be midfield (Not attacking midfield like someone suggested?!). Baker is twice the player Clark is at the back and just continues to improve. Can't stand watching Clark just throw his leg at the ball when he tries to clear it.
Totally agree Baker is much more solid. He is tight on his player but does not get turned as his timing is better and he is more powerful. Bakers aerial power is the best we have (not difficult with Vlaar there) only problem is, he is injury prone .....
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If he plays, it should be midfield (Not attacking midfield like someone suggested?!). Baker is twice the player Clark is at the back and just continues to improve. Can't stand watching Clark just throw his leg at the ball when he tries to clear it.
Totally agree Baker is much more solid. He is tight on his player but does not get turned as his timing is better and he is more powerful. Bakers aerial power is the best we have (not difficult with Vlaar there) only problem is, he is injury prone .....
Agreed. thought hey're both still learning, I think Baker has learnt the lesson of knowing when to stay a yard off of the striker so he doesn't get turned so easily. Clark always seems to get twisted up when he goes tight, an gets committed to giving away a foul or 2.
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Clark is better on the ball than Baker and with experience under his belt, should make the better defender in 5 years time. I think both will make it in the Premier league though.
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Clark is better on the ball than Baker and with experience under his belt, should make the better defender in 5 years time. I think both will make it in the Premier league though.
Me too. Baker is big and strong and reminds me a bit of Ugo whereas Clark is more his own man and perhaps more the type of defender we will be seeing dominate the game over the coming years. He is good on the ball, decent distribution and quite versatile. If they weren't both left footed I would say Clark and Baker compliment each other perfectly and could be a great pairing in about three years.
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They both remind me of Jonny Evans in many ways. He was bobbins for large chunks of his younger years (and has benefitted from years on loan to Sunderland etc too) but is starting to look a good player now he's player 130 odd games at the top level (compared to 60 odd for Clark and Baker).
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Clark is certainly a more cultured player than Baker (he looks like he reads the Guardian too but that's not what I mean). Perhaps he could be a sweeper. Anyone seen one of them since 1992?
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Clark is certainly a more cultured player than Baker (he looks like he reads the Guardian too but that's not what I mean). Perhaps he could be a sweeper. Anyone seen one of them since 1992?
I occupied the position on occasion last season, but it was in the Sutton & District Division 4.
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Clark is certainly a more cultured player than Baker (he looks like he reads the Guardian too but that's not what I mean). Perhaps he could be a sweeper. Anyone seen one of them since 1992?
The role has moved forward in front of the defence now. Pirlo, for example, would've been a sweeper 20-30 years ago, but now plays as a defensive midfielder instead, doing exactly the same job. I think the English idea of what a sweeper is and the continental idea (where it was actually used a lot) is totally different. It's basically a free role in defence, where you can wander around the pitch looking for work, which is why players like Gullit moved back there when they got older, it just gives a bit more space to be a creative influence.
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Combine them both and you would have a decent player. Both very short in certain areas. Baker for me is just too poor on the ball and I don't think that is something he will improve at this stage of his career. He is possibly the worst player on the ball in the first team squad, takes going when the likes of Lichaj and Herd are involved. Bit of a poor mans Phil Jones tearing into everything but positionally suspect.
Clark has had a horrid time of late. But getting stronger is something that can be developed. His lack of pace can't be improved upon so he will have to improve a lot at reading the game. I'd have more hope for him but a centre half in the EPL can't really be physically weak and slow. He needed to bulk up over the last couple of summers.
To be honest considering the huge flaws both of them have having been at the club since they were kids, it doesn't say too much for the standard of coaching they have received in the academy.
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Clark always reminds me a lot of Phil Jones who started off in central defence at Blackburn but was soon moved to defensive midfield and fullback where he's continued in Manchester.
Could see Clark end up somewhere, after watching him 20 + times this season, I think he'll have more of a Ridgwell type career at premier league level rather than a Cahill type career e.g not quite good enough at centre half but decent enough in other positions.
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Clark always reminds me a lot of Phil Jones who started off in central defence at Blackburn but was soon moved to defensive midfield and fullback where he's continued in Manchester.
Could see Clark end up somewhere, after watching him 20 + times this season, I think he'll have more of a Ridgwell type career at premier league level rather than a Cahill type career e.g not quite good enough at centre half but decent enough in other positions.
I can't see Clark playing in midfield. His first touch is f*cking atrocious. It's like watching an orang utan try to trap a beach ball.
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He has had some good games in that position though, Chelsea away last season springs to mind and also Wolves when he got moved there.
Bit slow so needs a dynamic player alongside him.
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My main concern with Clark in midfield last season was that all his passes were either backwards or sideways. It may have just been a confidence issue or McLeish may have instructed him to play that way, but he didn't offer too much in possession.
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Just read he is getting a new contract. Was kinda hoping that he would be offloaded really. Just not good enough and clearly doesn't seem to realise that his best position is in midfield.
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Does loyalty work both ways? Can we chastise players for a lack of loyalty when they go on to pastures new whilst at the same time talk about trying to offload players who are still young and learning...
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Considering centre backs don't mature until 27 plus, and he has had to be the senior partner most of the season due to Vlaar being out when Clark has been fit, I think he has done ok. He is a good footballer, and at times has played really well. QPR home and Reading away he made some pretty vital tackles and challenges and I thought he looked like he was up for the fight. Deserves time and patience. As does Baker. They should be supplemented by a new man in for Dunne though, that is both more experienced and better. It is the only position I would say experience is as important as ability in who we sign, but I do hope we can get someone with a bit of quality, experience and still hungry to perform.
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Does loyalty work both ways? Can we chastise players for a lack of loyalty when they go on to pastures new whilst at the same time talk about trying to offload players who are still young and learning...
I don't really see why people seem to reserve more patience for Clark then they do for the likes of Bannan, Albrighton, Herd and Fonz who are all the same age. Why is it acceptable to say the aforementioned aren't good enough while Clark is still 'young and learning'?
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I think it is ok...I just think it's ironic when supporters get really bitter when the tables are turned and players like Milner and Barry move on
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It is the only position I would say experience is as important as ability in who we sign, but I do hope we can get someone with a bit of quality, experience and still hungry to perform.
I'm not sure about that. I think now he has a season under his belt, Vlaar will be our 'experienced' centre-half. What is important now isn't age but finding a new CB who will complement Vlaar. Clark doesn't do this at all since they are too similar. Baker does too an extent but the problem is the lack of pace between them which makes it difficult for them to deal with pacy players or runs in behind them (as was seen in the Liverpool home game). Baker is still good to have of course as he is ideal in more physical games (i.e. Stoke away). The same cannot be said about Clark who is lightweight and error prone. He is a midfielder and should stop fooling himself into thinking he can make it as a half-decent CB.
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Does loyalty work both ways? Can we chastise players for a lack of loyalty when they go on to pastures new whilst at the same time talk about trying to offload players who are still young and learning...
I don't really see why people seem to reserve more patience for Clark then they do for the likes of Bannan, Albrighton, Herd and Fonz who are all the same age. Why is it acceptable to say the aforementioned aren't good enough while Clark is still 'young and learning'?
Maybe because they think they see better player within Clark than the others you mentioned?
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Considering centre backs don't mature until 27 plus, and he has had to be the senior partner most of the season due to Vlaar being out when Clark has been fit, I think he has done ok. He is a good footballer, and at times has played really well. QPR home and Reading away he made some pretty vital tackles and challenges and I thought he looked like he was up for the fight. Deserves time and patience. As does Baker. They should be supplemented by a new man in for Dunne though, that is both more experienced and better. It is the only position I would say experience is as important as ability in who we sign, but I do hope we can get someone with a bit of quality, experience and still hungry to perform.
That sums up my thoughts on Clark and also agree I would love to see someone come to Villa with that little bit of experience and quality. If only we could find the next unwanted cast off like we did with McGrath.
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I haven't given up on Clark, but I have lost quite a lot of faith.
If he does come through strongly then great. But I think he needs to earn it. We can't assume it will happen and need at least one new CB who's better than what we have to go straight into the side for next season.
Frankly, I think it was stupid not to have sent him out on loan for 6 months at 19 or so. He was coasting through substandard reserve football instead
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The unnerving development of Clark this season has been the development of his running style. He has turned into Richard Dunne with the straight arm swing i.e. only his legs really move when he is running at speed. Maybe it is an Irish thing?
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Clark would benefit from a really strong, commanding centre half next to him. We've lacked a Laursen since Laursen. Dunney was a pretender for one season but has fallen by the wayside with form, fitness and injuries.
I do worry about Clarkys concentration and positioning. He needs it sorting. But much like Curtis Davies, when he had Laursen playing by his side he looked a hell of a lot better. Laursen kept the backline in tow. When he was out and we didn't have a commanding centre half, Davies looked total bobbins. Clark would benefit from the same on field tutorship. Vlaar doesn't do that. He's still getting to grips with this league himself he's got enough of his own positional problems to worry about, let alone a partner and two full backs as well.
It's not too late for Clark but next season is the defining one. Will he be a Villa player for the future, or should he move on.
I don't rate him as a midfielder either. To me that's just pushing him forward for the sake of limiting his defensive frailties. He's certainly not good enough to get close to our current preferred line up in CM.
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He badly needs to cut out his lapses in concentration.
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Hmmm, banged a few goals in from midfield last year but a very challenging season at centre back and having the captains armband this year. Definitely potential there so offer him the contract.
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Clark will be a very good player for us, he suffered more than most during our horrible run around January and it really seemed to knock his confidence but I have faith that he'll get over it and come back strong.
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He reminds me of Gareth Barry, I do think he will end up as a cultured midfielder
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We needed to take him out of the firing line in January, but unfortunately couldn't.
I think he is a good player, but Baker, who is guilty of his own concentration lapses, has overtaken him in my view.
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Does loyalty work both ways? Can we chastise players for a lack of loyalty when they go on to pastures new whilst at the same time talk about trying to offload players who are still young and learning...
I don't really see why people seem to reserve more patience for Clark then they do for the likes of Bannan, Albrighton, Herd and Fonz who are all the same age. Why is it acceptable to say the aforementioned aren't good enough while Clark is still 'young and learning'?
Maybe because they think they see better player within Clark than the others you mentioned?
Fair enough but then they have to say why and not use the argument that he is young and therefore will get better. I have to say that he hasn't been any better then Bannan this season. Both have had some good games but have had far more bad ones. In football you have to take your chances when they come. Just like Westwood and Lowton have for example.
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Clark will be a very good player for us, he suffered more than most during our horrible run around January and it really seemed to knock his confidence but I have faith that he'll get over it and come back strong.
He carried all the responsibility when Vlaar was out so mentally it was much tougher on him. Captain a lot, and shipping goals. He will be back a better player for it all I am sure.
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A good rest in the summer, a bit of gym work and we will see a much better player. Last season was a big step up for Clark and he came through it a more mature player. He will go into next season with a lot more games under his belt. Could surprise a few next season.
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He reminds me of Gareth Barry, I do think he will end up as a cultured midfielder
Me too, i don't think he's a centre half and he's definatley not a left back.
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Much prefer Baker in central defence tbh, I think he has played well since coming in for Clark.
Really don't see Clark as being good enough as a centre half in the premier league, maybe as a left back or midfielder.
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Clark is a lower half Premier League player, if Villa want to move forward, I daresay that Clark may be left behind. Perhaps needs to change his style and become the ball winning central midfielder that I feel we need. I can't see it though.
Great debate, by the way.
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I think Clark should look at David Luiz's successful transition to midfield and look to emulate that.
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People who are saying that Clark isn't good enough or should be bunted into midfield are insane. He's only 23 and has had to lead a back four and midfield consisting of players aged 23 and under for a large part of the season. He's made a couple of errors defensively but other than that he's been solid at the back, he can pass the ball and most importantly in our setup he can keep the ball.
I think people are focusing far too much on the few negatives he's had this season. Watch him play week in week out and he's cutting out passes, dominating defenders in the air and making dozens of last ditch tackles and blocks to keep us in the game. In our 3-1 win over Liverpool he absolutely murdered Suarez all game. Even Liverpool fans were joking that Suarez couldn't get out of Clark's pocket for weeks after the match had finished.
At the age of 23 Johnny Evans really looked like a joke at centre back. Fast-forward a couple of years and Evans is a solid unit for United. There's nobody calling for Johnny Evans to go down the leagues or to shift him out of position these days. In another year or two Clark will be in the exact same position. Centre half is the hardest position for a young player to play and it takes time and experience before they're up to standard. Clark's not only had to play there in what was a defensively weak team but he also had the responsibility to captain the side for many games this season.
For me Clark is first choice. I don't want Lescott or somebody to come in and take games off of him. He's a top, top prospect and a few blunders aside he has been good this season. I'd buy a centre half to cover injuries and rotation but not to force Clark and Baker out of the side. A lower league signing like Chester for example who's young and promising. Then we have the option to rest centre halves if they're out of form. Something that wasn't an option this year. The experience that Clark will have gained this year and an opportunity to rest for a couple of months will be vital to him and his progress. He's already fixed many problems in his game and although not the finished article, we have to persevere with him and he'll reward us next season.
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All the young lads have been thrown in the deep end this season. Some have sunk and some have swum. Clark is one of those who have sunk.
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I agree (with N'Zimidy). He is a top prospect and people forget that he captained England at every level before electing to play for Ireland. He's had a real baptism of fire to his career and to get rid now would be, in my opinion, utterly insane. Even from midfield he is useful and has scored more league goals from that position than the ludicrously over-hyped Jack Wilshere.
The England squad for Clark's last match might indicate how highly he is/was regarded:
Marc Albrighton Aston Villa
Ben Amos Manchester United
Ryan Bertrand Norwich City (on loan from Chelsea)
David Button Luton Town (on loan from Tottenham Hotspur)
Andy Carroll Newcastle United
Ciaran Clark (Captain) Aston Villa
Tom Cleverley Leicester City (on loan from Manchester United)
Jack Cork Watford (on loan from Chelsea)
Fabian Delph Leeds United
Kieran Gibbs Arsenal
Ben Mee Manchester City
Javan Vidal Aberdeen (on loan from Manchester City)
Freddie Sears West Ham United
Scott Sinclair Birmingham City (on loan from Chelsea)
Chris Smalling Fulham
Daniel Sturridge Manchester City
James Tomkins West Ham United
Josh Walker Middlesbrough
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People who are saying that Clark isn't good enough or should be bunted into midfield are insane. He's only 23 and has had to lead a back four and midfield consisting of players aged 23 and under for a large part of the season. He's made a couple of errors defensively but other than that he's been solid at the back, he can pass the ball and most importantly in our setup he can keep the ball.
I think people are focusing far too much on the few negatives he's had this season. Watch him play week in week out and he's cutting out passes, dominating defenders in the air and making dozens of last ditch tackles and blocks to keep us in the game. In our 3-1 win over Liverpool he absolutely murdered Suarez all game. Even Liverpool fans were joking that Suarez couldn't get out of Clark's pocket for weeks after the match had finished.
At the age of 23 Johnny Evans really looked like a joke at centre back. Fast-forward a couple of years and Evans is a solid unit for United. There's nobody calling for Johnny Evans to go down the leagues or to shift him out of position these days. In another year or two Clark will be in the exact same position. Centre half is the hardest position for a young player to play and it takes time and experience before they're up to standard. Clark's not only had to play there in what was a defensively weak team but he also had the responsibility to captain the side for many games this season.
For me Clark is first choice. I don't want Lescott or somebody to come in and take games off of him. He's a top, top prospect and a few blunders aside he has been good this season. I'd buy a centre half to cover injuries and rotation but not to force Clark and Baker out of the side. A lower league signing like Chester for example who's young and promising. Then we have the option to rest centre halves if they're out of form. Something that wasn't an option this year. The experience that Clark will have gained this year and an opportunity to rest for a couple of months will be vital to him and his progress. He's already fixed many problems in his game and although not the finished article, we have to persevere with him and he'll reward us next season.
This is a great post, and spot on. The only reason I would prefer a Lescott over a Chester for example, is the frailty of Vlaar. I want at least 1 man with experience to coax the others through.
Shame Stoke did not go, I would have taken Shawcross or Huth to do the same.
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I agree (with N'Zimidy). He is a top prospect and people forget that he captained England at every level before electing to play for Ireland. (Yet he has looked anything other then a captain when he has been given the armband this season.) He's had a real baptism of fire to his career and to get rid now would be, in my opinion, utterly insane. (No more a baptism of fire then the other young lads. Yet it hasn't prevented the likes of Lowton, Westwood, Weimann and Benteke from stepping up and having good seasons.) Even from midfield he is useful and has scored more league goals from that position than the ludicrously over-hyped Jack Wilshere. (Clark is a great prospect whilst Wilshire is over-hyped! Seriously? Also, I'd like Clark to midfield but he made it clear that he only sees himself as a centre-back.)
The England squad for Clark's last match might indicate how highly he is/was regarded:
Marc Albrighton Aston Villa
Ben Amos Manchester United
Ryan Bertrand Norwich City (on loan from Chelsea)
David Button Luton Town (on loan from Tottenham Hotspur)
Andy Carroll Newcastle United
Ciaran Clark (Captain) Aston Villa
Tom Cleverley Leicester City (on loan from Manchester United)
Jack Cork Watford (on loan from Chelsea)
Fabian Delph Leeds United
Kieran Gibbs Arsenal
Ben Mee Manchester City
Javan Vidal Aberdeen (on loan from Manchester City)
Freddie Sears West Ham United
Scott Sinclair Birmingham City (on loan from Chelsea)
Chris Smalling Fulham
Daniel Sturridge Manchester City
James Tomkins West Ham United
Josh Walker Middlesbrough (Yes, there have been many players who have looked good at youth level without making the grade at senior level. We have seen enough of them here at Villa.)
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I understand your points Neo_Villan but young players develop and shine at different rates and different times, getting consistency to their games is the key thing. This time two years ago, in the midst of Houllier's crisis-ridden reign, Clark and Albrighton more than stood up and both looked very promising indeed. I saw enough then to know they are very capable players just as I've seen enough in the past couple of months to know the likes of Lowton are capable lads. Clark was captaining a team containing Smalling, Cleverley, Sturridge, Sinclair, Gibbs etc. which suggests he has something about him worth sticking with.
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People who are saying that Clark isn't good enough or should be bunted into midfield are insane. He's only 23 and has had to lead a back four and midfield consisting of players aged 23 and under for a large part of the season. He's made a couple of errors defensively but other than that he's been solid at the back, he can pass the ball and most importantly in our setup he can keep the ball.
I think people are focusing far too much on the few negatives he's had this season. Watch him play week in week out and he's cutting out passes, dominating defenders in the air and making dozens of last ditch tackles and blocks to keep us in the game. In our 3-1 win over Liverpool he absolutely murdered Suarez all game. Even Liverpool fans were joking that Suarez couldn't get out of Clark's pocket for weeks after the match had finished.
At the age of 23 Johnny Evans really looked like a joke at centre back. Fast-forward a couple of years and Evans is a solid unit for United. There's nobody calling for Johnny Evans to go down the leagues or to shift him out of position these days. In another year or two Clark will be in the exact same position. Centre half is the hardest position for a young player to play and it takes time and experience before they're up to standard. Clark's not only had to play there in what was a defensively weak team but he also had the responsibility to captain the side for many games this season.
For me Clark is first choice. I don't want Lescott or somebody to come in and take games off of him. He's a top, top prospect and a few blunders aside he has been good this season. I'd buy a centre half to cover injuries and rotation but not to force Clark and Baker out of the side. A lower league signing like Chester for example who's young and promising. Then we have the option to rest centre halves if they're out of form. Something that wasn't an option this year. The experience that Clark will have gained this year and an opportunity to rest for a couple of months will be vital to him and his progress. He's already fixed many problems in his game and although not the finished article, we have to persevere with him and he'll reward us next season.
Good analysis as far as I'm concerned, Clark can be a cornerstone of our central defence for years given the chance.
I trust Lambert to persevere with Clark, his judgement has been pretty good so far.
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I understand your points Neo_Villan but young players develop and shine at different rates and different times, getting consistency to their games is the key thing. This time two years ago, in the midst of Houllier's crisis-ridden reign, Clark and Albrighton more than stood up and both looked very promising indeed. I saw enough then to know they are very capable players just as I've seen enough in the past couple of months to know the likes of Lowton are capable lads. Clark was captaining a team containing Smalling, Cleverley, Sturridge, Sinclair, Gibbs etc. which suggests he has something about him worth sticking with.
I think my main concern with him is that he is bordering on the limit of what we would define as young. 23 now. I just wonder how much more time we need to give him before we reach a conclusion. As I also previously said, you can't really look at his youth record to prove anything. Luke Moore was once considered as good a prospect as Rooney for example. If Clark stays, then I'll obviously give him another season and hope he proves me wrong. But I still maintain that his best performances have been in midfield. It also told me something that McLeish prefered Baker to him in defence after Dunne's injury. Say what you like about McLeish, but he is a good defensive coach and was a good centre-back himself.
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Good analysis as far as I'm concerned, Clark can be a cornerstone of our central defence for years given the chance.
I trust Lambert to persevere with Clark, his judgement has been pretty good so far.
Exactly. Lambert came in and straight away said that Clark was a centre half and was going to be a key man for us. He instantly dismissed the notion that he should play in midfield. Lambert's stuck with him, even through a tricky January with money to spend. That should tell us plenty about the potential of Clark and how highly rated he is by the management here.
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Centre half's tend to put in they're better performances in the late 20's to early 30's, even Gary Cahill has looked a raw talent at times recently and he plays for England.
Clark has the potential to be a cornerstone of our defence for years to come and I wouldn't be giving up on him at the moment.
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Clark is the new Barry. Where do you play him? Nobody knew for a while with either of them.
I could see him playing the Westwood role. Not as good as, but may be worth looking at if Westwood is injured/has a couple of games to see how he plays in a more advanced role.
I think Clark is a good player, he just needs a position.
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I certainly wouldn't be giving up on him.
Not sure if his future is at centre back though.
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Luke Moore was never considered as good a prospect as Rooney except by the most one eyed of Villa fans (so about 30% of posters here!)
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Luke Moore was never considered as good a prospect as Rooney except by the most one eyed of Villa fans (so about 30% of posters here!)
Haha! I probably did embellish that point somewhat.
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Clark can potentially be good, but he has to show an ability to learn from his mistakes. That's the only way he'll ever succeed.
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Clark can potentially be good, but he has to show an ability to learn from his mistakes. That's the only way he'll ever succeed.
agreed. He has the quality but now needs the concentration and determination to succeed at the highest level. Bringing in another experienced CB in the close season would really help him.
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Clark can potentially be good, but he has to show an ability to learn from his mistakes. That's the only way he'll ever succeed.
agreed. He has the quality but now needs the concentration and determination to succeed at the highest level. Bringing in another experienced CB in the close season would really help him.
His ability to learn has been highlighted recently. I recall a MOTD when Hansen picked up on the difficulty he was having in the first half when he was marking the forward too closely. AH then showed a clip from the second half, commenting that this had been pointed out to him and the lad had changed his play to reflect this, with positive results. He made the comment that Clark was an intelligent player who would continue to improve.
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I think Clark missed a season on loan somewhere during later stages of MON, Houlier and/or TSM's reign.
Baker and Clark have actually played a similar number of games as Baker benefitted from spells on loan.
Ultimately I think Clark will be a lot better player at the start of next season than he was for this. If he'd done (more) of his learning outside of the club I think we'd all be a lot more enthusiastic about his abilities.
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I think Clark was trying to do other peoples jobs during our terrible run, actually think there is a proper player in there
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Clark has been in and around the first team since 2009 now, let's not forget.
And during all that time he hasn't looked secure at the back, or capable of making the position his own.
Baker is still raw, but over the course of the last two seasons (mostly this season, as it's the first one he's been allowed any type of run in his favoured position) he has looked the better prospect.
He stands up to the oppositions front man, rarely gets bullied off the ball, is solid in the tackle and heads the ball well. He can get pulled out of position, but you expect that from a young CB still learning the ropes. And his distributiion isn't great. But then Dunne and Collins are 30+ and the less said about their passing ability the better.
With a bit of work, he can be competent at that, short passes at least. You don't really need much more from a CB (though it's clearly an advantage if they have more to offer in that dept).
Clark is more of a concern, because the primary things you look for in a centre half, strength, tackling ariel ability and concentration, he lacks. Or only shows on a semi consistent basis. There is a decent footballer there somewhere, but not at CB, I feel.
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I think he can be a good player there kevingage and rate him higher than Baker at this stage, but respect your opinion
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Baker has always been the better defender of the two. However, during Baker's run in the team we have also found the right balance to the midfield which has afforded the defence more protection. During most of Clark's run of games, we were changing formations, changing personnel, we didn't have Sylla for most of those games etc. He'll benefit so much more from having had these issues resolved, the team settling down and some signings that strengthen areas where we're weak.
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Baker has always been the better defender of the two. However, during Baker's run in the team we have also found the right balance to the midfield which has afforded the defence more protection. During most of Clark's run of games, we were changing formations, changing personnel, we didn't have Sylla for most of those games etc. He'll benefit so much more from having had these issues resolved, the team settling down and some signings that strengthen areas where we're weak.
Good point OCD.
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Sylla and a fully fit and rejuvenated Delph have made a massive difference, totally agree OCD. I think both Baker and Clark have lots to learn but they both give their all and suppose we cant complain at that
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Clark has been in and around the first team since 2009 now, let's not forget.
And during all that time he hasn't looked secure at the back, or capable of making the position his own.
Baker is still raw, but over the course of the last two seasons (mostly this season, as it's the first one he's been allowed any type of run in his favoured position) he has looked the better prospect.
He stands up to the oppositions front man, rarely gets bullied off the ball, is solid in the tackle and heads the ball well. He can get pulled out of position, but you expect that from a young CB still learning the ropes. And his distributiion isn't great. But then Dunne and Collins are 30+ and the less said about their passing ability the better.
With a bit of work, he can be competent at that, short passes at least. You don't really need much more from a CB (though it's clearly an advantage if they have more to offer in that dept).
Clark is more of a concern, because the primary things you look for in a centre half, strength, tackling ariel ability and concentration, he lacks. Or only shows on a semi consistent basis. There is a decent footballer there somewhere, but not at CB, I feel.
Excellent post. As I said before, there is a reason TSM preferred Baker over Clark when Dunne got injured.
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Ciaran Clark is far better suited to be a defensive midfield player imo.
However, I still think he can grow into a first choice CB for many years for us, although next season will be a bit of a make or break for him.
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Clark has been in and around the first team since 2009 now, let's not forget.
And during all that time he hasn't looked secure at the back, or capable of making the position his own.
Baker is still raw, but over the course of the last two seasons (mostly this season, as it's the first one he's been allowed any type of run in his favoured position) he has looked the better prospect.
He stands up to the oppositions front man, rarely gets bullied off the ball, is solid in the tackle and heads the ball well. He can get pulled out of position, but you expect that from a young CB still learning the ropes. And his distributiion isn't great. But then Dunne and Collins are 30+ and the less said about their passing ability the better.
With a bit of work, he can be competent at that, short passes at least. You don't really need much more from a CB (though it's clearly an advantage if they have more to offer in that dept).
Clark is more of a concern, because the primary things you look for in a centre half, strength, tackling ariel ability and concentration, he lacks. Or only shows on a semi consistent basis. There is a decent footballer there somewhere, but not at CB, I feel.
I would agree with that KG. I think Baker has moved ahead of Clark in the pecking order, but still think we need a better option than those two partnering Vlaar next season.
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I agree we need another experienced CB, but I think both have been decent this season and admire the way Clark tried to take charge of a shit defence earlier in the season, he seems a lad who is happy to take on responsibility.
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Ciaran Clark is far better suited to be a defensive midfield player imo.
However, I still think he can grow into a first choice CB for many years for us, although next season will be a bit of a make or break for him.
There were many saying exactly the same thing last summer.
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I agree we need another experienced CB, but I think both have been decent this season and admire the way Clark tried to take charge of a shit defence earlier in the season, he seems a lad who is happy to take on responsibility.
When you are made captain that is the general idea.
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Ciaran Clark is far better suited to be a defensive midfield player imo.
However, I still think he can grow into a first choice CB for many years for us, although next season will be a bit of a make or break for him.
There were many saying exactly the same thing last summer.
Prepared to give him the benefit to the doubt though this season as having to play alongside a defensive unit that was all learning at the same time was less than ideal. Also had hoped Vlaar would have been more of the leader of the defensive pack than he has been hence Clark had to do that job when not in the best of form.
Still love to see him get a go as a defensive midfielder though as that's where I see his attributes developing best.
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In the fast paced system lambert wants to play he's a centre back or nothing and lambert has said as much
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@MatKendrick: Ciaran Clark is Villa's latest injury worry. He has been ruled out of Ireland duty with a foot tendon problem.
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Nothing to worry about here - he has 2 weeks to recover .
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Yes. Misses the chance to impress MON and Keano, though.
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Sounds like he should be back for the next one. I'd definitely play him ahead of Baker.
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Has anyone seen his passing ability of two years ago? It appeared to be completely missing yesterday!
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I do believe the stats say Ciaran was our second most successful passer behind Westwood, but Villa's passing in general has been wayward this season so he was second best of a bad bunch.
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On the plus side he hasn't been pulled around anywhere near as much as last season.
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I think he has been a real bright spot of the season, one wild swing at West Ham aside. Fair play to him, he actually looks solid most of the time now, and much improved on last season. Centre halves get better as they age, so he may well still become the player he threatened at 19-20.
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Having kept successive clean sheets do people believe the back 4 should get another chance at the hawthorns or luna should return?
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Back 4? Or 5? Or 4? Every time I looked it changed!
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I think Clark will be a key player for us within one year. I'd now trust him at either centre back, full back or defensive midfield. He has really grown in stature.
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Isn't he already a key player? Especially with Okore out for the season.
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Clark has barely put a foot wrong this season. Our defence has looked pretty solid on the whole too. Any problems we have had have been the odd lapse at set pieces, or teams exploiting our isolated full back areas, but we've tightened up in those areas too.
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The defensive coach (ex-Arsenal player that played under George Graham) that we brought in during the summer seems to be doing a very good job.
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Scott Marshall is the defensive coach bit of a journeyman but played under George Graham at his finest.
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The defensive coach (ex-Arsenal player that played under George Graham) that we brought in during the summer seems to be doing a very good job.
That is a pretty decent shout. Going forward we are less of a threat, IMO, due to being unable to pick a settled side due to constant injury issues, defensively we have been much, much better so far.
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If people think Clark already is a key player, then that really is some turnaround for a player many were writing off just six months ago.
Well done Ciaran.
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For me, last year Clark seemed the epitome of our defensive frailty and was starting to become a bit of a scapegoat (we've always loved our scapegoats at the Villa), but has really gotten back on track. Full marks, proved me wrong so far. Looks solid and assured, and i would think the vast majority would prefer him now to Baker.
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If people think Clark already is a key player, then that really is some turnaround for a player many were writing off just six months ago.
Well done Ciaran.
It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that a fair few on here at all but written Clarky off. He'd been put down by a lot as 4th choice CB, in some cases even further down the pecking order. In the summer I wouldn't have been upset to see him go, but now I'm glad he's finally fulfilling his potential.
It's been as simple as him just staying focused in games and not switching off, whilst the much improved form of Concrete Ron has also helped him immensely.
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I hope this doesn't sound too "I told you so" but just being patient is paying dividends for a number of players. Clark looks a half decent centre back. Bacuna has shown that he is a capable deputy at right back (and possibly more). Whereas in the summer these were understandably must fill positions.
Whilst it will not always be this way, as a club and particularly as fans we need to buy into this philosophy, for it to have a chance of working (albeit the club could make it easier on us by sending more players out on loan).
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Quite simply, Vlaar, Clark and Baker have all improved individually and as a unit from last season. As has already been pointed out, a big problem last season was not being able to replace players who were out of form and confidence. I like Bacuna as a defender, but I think his attacking threat will soon see him moving forward and Lowton coming back. I think there is still a question mark at left back but I think Luna will eventually look good in that position.
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I think the question marks over our full backs defensively are more of a result of the style we play than their own lack of ability.
I think we leave them exposed at times, and most full backs will grow up having a player directly in front of them to work with, so a period of adjustment is probably needed for new signings.
That said Bacuna's picked it up from the off, and I've high hopes for Luna too, and as for Clark, I'd pretty much written him off so I'm delighted to say he looks like he's ramming the words down my throat.
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Quite simply, Vlaar, Clark and Baker have all improved individually and as a unit from last season.
Absolutely. I've never been a big fan of Clark as a defender but he's been really good this season. They were not bad defenders last season really, they just found it tough going bearing in mind three of them were playing in the Prem for the first time.
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I picked Clark as my "most important player" for last season. I may have got it wrong by a year but I'm convinced that he will be a superb player for us. He just looks the part, and I reckon a big part of his poor form last year was the knock his confidence must have taken when we were shipping all those goals.
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I picked Clark as my "most important player" for last season. I may have got it wrong by a year but I'm convinced that he will be a superb player for us. He just looks the part, and I reckon a big part of his poor form last year was the knock his confidence must have taken when we were shipping all those goals.
The last sentence should end with '"whilst he was captain."
He was put through the grinder last winter and had a very tough time of it and I think the pressure told. The forced break when he picked up his injury was very much needed mentally to see if he could learn from the experience and, so far, it appears he did. I think he's been our best defender this season and I never understood the calls for him to be sold or the opinion that Baker is the better player, Clark could easily go on to be a very good premier league defender for the next 10years.
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Vlaar , Clark and baker all look much improved this season - add in okore and we have central defence pretty well covered long term I would think - for me there is little to choose between Clark and baker - both developing nicely.
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For me, Clark is a far better centre back than Baker. On this season's form anyway - last season I would have said Clark was the better footballer but Baker the better defender.
I think Vlaar, Clark and Okore are our long-term centre backs. There's a question mark over Baker in regards to the long-term. If all 4 were fit, he would be struggling to get into the side.
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Inuries and suspensions are a pretty regular occurence though, and then there's (hopefully) cup runs and European football.
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For me, Clark is a far better centre back than Baker. On this season's form anyway - last season I would have said Clark was the better footballer but Baker the better defender.
I think Vlaar, Clark and Okore are our long-term centre backs. There's a question mark over Baker in regards to the long-term. If all 4 were fit, he would be struggling to get into the side.
I agree, my issue with Baker is that he doesn't appear to be improving on his weaknesses.
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For me, Clark is a far better centre back than Baker. On this season's form anyway - last season I would have said Clark was the better footballer but Baker the better defender.
I think Vlaar, Clark and Okore are our long-term centre backs. There's a question mark over Baker in regards to the long-term. If all 4 were fit, he would be struggling to get into the side.
I agree, my issue with Baker is that he doesn't appear to be improving on his weaknesses.
I think with Baker he's just a bit too limited at this level. I think he'll stay a couple more years here as a back up behind the other three. Clarky was always the one with the most potential, but last season appeared to be falling desperately behind.
Bakers just a bit slow, very rough on the ball and positionally is suspect. Championship is his level long term I feel, if he wants to be playing week in and week out. A bit like Lichaj really. He could have stayed here and filled in every now and again, but he dropped a level to play week in and week out, and it is his level really.
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I rate Baker over Clark, but Clark (like all our CB's in fairness) has looked a lot better this year.
The weakness from set pieces, the lack of communication, these are all things that (so far) look to have been addressed. That could be down to the new defensive coach. Or maybe they all just benefit from the experience of last year, and an extended period of playing time together.
My concern about Clark last season as that he was making the same mistakes and not learning. I can't see him being a fixture in the backline in 5-10 years, but if he's not a total liability when he pulls on the shirt, that will do for the time being. Like others have mentioned, I do see more of a future for him further up the pitch. But that probably won't occur under the present manager.
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It's not a bad situation when Baker is considered 4th choice, especially when he's likely to improve a fair bit too.
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That's the thing - baker is still very young. he's yet to do any over head kicks against teh Shit but i don't see too much difference between him and a young cahill. Cahill is poor with his distribution but a good few games under his belt have earned him his recognition as he's improved year on year. i've been impressed with Clark so far but would still choose Baker over the two, but only just.
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I am really encouraged by Clark's start to the season. He seems to have cut some of the silly mistakes from his game. He looks stronger and far more confident in his own game, almost a different player from last season. Encouraging.
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Clark for me has always had a lot more potential. His reading of the game and his technique are at a level I doubt Baker could ever achieve. The problem was his robustness, decision taking and then confidence. He's been an awful lot better this season though. Surprised to see him not featuring for Ireland at all though.
Baker's still way better than the likes of Lichaj and Herd though. But once Okore is back I think he'll be fourth choice.
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Clark for me has always had a lot more potential. His reading of the game and his technique are at a level I doubt Baker could ever achieve. The problem was his robustness, decision taking and then confidence. He's been an awful lot better this season though. Surprised to see him not featuring for Ireland at all though.
Baker's still way better than the likes of Lichaj and Herd though. But once Okore is back I think he'll be fourth choice.
He wasn't in the squad as a precaution because of a possible injury (a bit like Guzan). Pretty sure i read that somewhere
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Clark for me has always had a lot more potential. His reading of the game and his technique are at a level I doubt Baker could ever achieve. The problem was his robustness, decision taking and then confidence. He's been an awful lot better this season though. Surprised to see him not featuring for Ireland at all though.
Baker's still way better than the likes of Lichaj and Herd though. But once Okore is back I think he'll be fourth choice.
He wasn't in the squad as a precaution because of a possible injury (a bit like Guzan). Pretty sure i read that somewhere
Yeah he withdrew from the current Irish squad due to injury.
He hasn't looked the part at international level yet really. Playing next to a fit Richard Dunne might bring him on. Had a horror show in a friendly against Uruguay (I think it was) at left back that set him back in Trapattoni's eyes.
Has improved this year for sure. Still his decision making needs to improve further as per Lukaku's goal and his yellow against Cardiff.
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I had written him off after his West Ham cameo but he's been excellent since he came back into the side. He's been showing some leadership and organisational skills whilst not putting a foot wrong. There were some moments of panic at the back that I'm not sure would happen with experienced players like Senderos and Vlaar but they got a clean sheet in a difficult away fixture.
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I had written him off after his West Ham cameo but he's been excellent since he came back into the side. He's been showing some leadership and organisational skills whilst not putting a foot wrong. There were some moments of panic at the back that I'm not sure would happen with experienced players like Senderos and Vlaar but they got a clean sheet in a difficult away fixture.
Playing alongside some class and experience, such as Okore is a big help
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I think Okore has a lot of potential but he made a few mistakes tonight and gave the penalty away on Saturday. I think it's more a case of Clark helping Okore than the other way round.
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I thought Ciaran was superb tonight.
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Definitely.
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Have always quite liked Clark. So far he and Okore look a decent pairing. Vlaar is in and out, Baker is terrible, and Sanderoes I think would get found out over time. So no need to change for now.
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Have always quite liked Clark. So far he and Okore look a decent pairing. Vlaar is in and out, Baker is terrible, and Sanderoes I think would get found out over time. So no need to change for now.
To be fair Baker has been excellent most of this season. Easily one of, if not the most improved players.
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Yeah I'd say baker is second only to Hutton in that respect
Defensively we've been much better this year. That is partly because we've parked the bus in most of our games. Mcleish wouldn't have got away with being this defensive. I find it really embarrassing
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I think Okore looks a lot calmer though. He also also reads the game a bit better. Considering he had not played for well over a year to play twice in 4 days was a real bonus. Clark is doing ok but is still way too jittery on the ball for me.
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I have a big critic of Clark - however his performances in recent games have been a marked improvement, especially Southampton where he looked ever inch a Premiership player.
At least it looks like we now have one area of the pitch where there are options.
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It's probably stating the obvious, but Clark and Baker both look better because they've been playing with defenders who have good positional awareness. Together, neither of them was the senior partner each could rely on, but Okore and Senderos know what they're doing, as does Vlaar when he is capable of playing. It makes both a lot calmer.
I don't underestimate having Hutton in defence either. When one side of the pitch is virtually covered, it makes the other that much easier to police.
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It's probably stating the obvious, but Clark and Baker both look better because they've been playing with defenders who have good positional awareness. Together, neither of them was the senior partner each could rely on, but Okore and Senderos know what they're doing, as does Vlaar when he is capable of playing. It makes both a lot calmer.
I don't underestimate having Hutton in defence either. When one side of the pitch is virtually covered, it makes the other that much easier to police.
To be fair Baker and Clark had shite games when they weren't paired together as well as when they were.
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I think Okore looks a lot calmer though. He also also reads the game a bit better. Considering he had not played for well over a year to play twice in 4 days was a real bonus. Clark is doing ok but is still way too jittery on the ball for me.
its not just the amount of time that Okore had out.
We must also remember the kid has started no more than 5 games at this level.
Even with Vlaar (most likely) fucking off, I think the centre half position is the very least of our worries.
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Clark's done well.
To be fair to him and Baker. Lamberts game plan dictates that we're going to be under the cosh, home or away, against pretty much 19 opponents, for at least 70 minutes of every single game. Young defenders will consequently make mistakes.
This season Baker and Clark have played well. Partly because they're more experienced now. Partly because they haven't been partnered (which ultimately forces one onto the right) and also because our fullback positions are more solid. Hutton has been brilliant. Cissokho started off very well, although he's looking a mess at the moment. That said Aly still looks rock solid compared to anyone we had on the left in the last two seasons.
Not having Bacuna or Lowton on the right going missing or bullied (in Lowton's case) has helped.
I think we're actually quite good at CH, even if Vlaar fucks off. What would help our defence is to not put so much pressure on it with our grotesque excuse for a gameplan. I don't care who you have, we could have McGrath and Maldini at the back in their prime and they'd struggle having to defend non-stop for 80 minutes.
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Clark's done well.
To be fair to him and Baker. Lamberts game plan dictates that we're going to be under the cosh, home or away, against pretty much 19 opponents, for at least 70 minutes of every single game. Young defenders will consequently make mistakes.
This season Baker and Clark have played well. Partly because they're more experienced now. Partly because they haven't been partnered (which ultimately forces one onto the right) and also because our fullback positions are more solid. Hutton has been brilliant. Cissokho started off very well, although he's looking a mess at the moment. That said Aly still looks rock solid compared to anyone we had on the left in the last two seasons.
Not having Bacuna or Lowton on the right going missing or bullied (in Lowton's case) has helped.
I think we're actually quite good at CH, even if Vlaar fucks off. What would help our defence is to not put so much pressure on it with our grotesque excuse for a gameplan. I don't care who you have, we could have McGrath and Maldini at the back in their prime and they'd struggle having to defend non-stop for 80 minutes.
I think we would have to replace Vlaar if he left, simply due to the fact that the remaining options have had their injury problems and we could be left short. Wouldn't have to be a starter and ideally would be someone who could cover at full-back if necessary.
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Clark's done well.
To be fair to him and Baker. Lamberts game plan dictates that we're going to be under the cosh, home or away, against pretty much 19 opponents, for at least 70 minutes of every single game. Young defenders will consequently make mistakes.
This season Baker and Clark have played well. Partly because they're more experienced now. Partly because they haven't been partnered (which ultimately forces one onto the right) and also because our fullback positions are more solid. Hutton has been brilliant. Cissokho started off very well, although he's looking a mess at the moment. That said Aly still looks rock solid compared to anyone we had on the left in the last two seasons.
Not having Bacuna or Lowton on the right going missing or bullied (in Lowton's case) has helped.
I think we're actually quite good at CH, even if Vlaar fucks off. What would help our defence is to not put so much pressure on it with our grotesque excuse for a gameplan. I don't care who you have, we could have McGrath and Maldini at the back in their prime and they'd struggle having to defend non-stop for 80 minutes.
I think we would have to replace Vlaar if he left, simply due to the fact that the remaining options have had their injury problems and we could be left short. Wouldn't have to be a starter and ideally would be someone who could cover at full-back if necessary.
In as much as Phil Senderos and Baker are injury prone, then probably yes, a replacement is needed. Though it can wait until the summer.
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Perhaps Donacien could perform those two tasks next season.
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I actually though Clark was decent for a lot of last season....alongside Vlaar. He was much improved from 12/13 and things only went to pieces when it was him and Baker.
Looks to me at 25 he realises this is last chance saloon at prem level and so is taking his chance accordingly.
The exciting thing for me is if Okore looks this assured next to Clark, how will he look alongside Vlaar or Senderos?
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By default , we may have actually uncovered our best CB pairing in Okore & Clark ? Would like to see how they fair against better opposition though.
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Like Paul, I think he's been excellent. Hope he's turned the corner and doesn't go back to his old ways.
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By default , we may have actually uncovered our best CB pairing in Okore & Clark ? Would like to see how they fair against better opposition though.
Well, both are mobile and both are decent footballers.
And neither are paired with Baker ...
we've played more defensively from midfield this season, which has helped. And, as someone above said, we've had better players at Fullback.
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He's looked really strong in the air this season, but I do wish he'd keep his hands off the player he's marking. I know a lot do it but Clark seems to be more obvious than most.
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Clark has been great since coming back in including, for me, at QPR when he was winning just about every ball in the air v Zamora where Vlaar was losing those headers. I think Clark could develop even better now because he can use the ball. It's a shame they're both left-footed because I think Baker and Clark would be a decent partnership now. Will Clark do the talking though?
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Clark and Baker have always had potential. I do wonder whether they've had to do ALL their learning on the pitch and have not been given 'text-book' type lessons on the training ground?
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Neither Clark or Baker seem like leaders to me. Both have qualities. I just think they need a proper leader next to them. I'm not convinced Vlaar is a proper leader.
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I remember, not that long ago, when Clark was being touted as a future England captain.
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Neither Clark or Baker seem like leaders to me. Both have qualities. I just think they need a proper leader next to them. I'm not convinced Vlaar is a proper leader.
No, but Senderos and Okore do appear to be the partners that Clark and Baker need.
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Clark looks better when there's someone with pace beside him, that's why him and Okore are a good combo.
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I think Clark seems to have skipper potential. He's had the armband in the past and did so in the second string and yoofs didn't he? He's actually been the one to take on the senior role alongside Okore to me. Of course he has the benefit of 100 or so games now, which plays a part.
If anything this season the CH who's not really played that well is Vlaar. He had some shaky matches between his last couple of injuries, after a very solid opening couple of games with Phil.
If Vlaar walks straight back into the starting 11 when he's fit, he'll be very lucky.
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I think Clark seems to have skipper potential. He's had the armband in the past and did so in the second string and yoofs didn't he? He's actually been the one to take on the senior role alongside Okore to me. Of course he has the benefit of 100 or so games now, which plays a part.
If anything this season the CH who's not really played that well is Vlaar. He had some shaky matches between his last couple of injuries, after a very solid opening couple of games with Phil.
If Vlaar walks straight back into the starting 11 when he's fit, he'll be very lucky.
Someone mentioned on the coach to Burnley that Vlaar ain't injured at all...Lambert's having a strop re his agent/Ron himself and he's chosen to freeze him out. Makes a goodish story buy maybe total bollux.
Ron was completely shit at QPR.
IMHO.
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Vlaar misses too many chunks of games. He's out for 6 or 7+ and then getting up to speed for the next 2 or 3 and bang there goes over a quarter of the season in one injury, year in year out.
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Vlaar is only rated by those who don't watch Villa that often it seems.
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Someone mentioned on the coach to Burnley that Vlaar ain't injured at all...Lambert's having a strop re his agent/Ron himself and he's chosen to freeze him out. Makes a goodish story buy maybe total bollux.
Why would he have been left out of the last Dutch squad then?
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Someone mentioned on the coach to Burnley that Vlaar ain't injured at all...Lambert's having a strop re his agent/Ron himself and he's chosen to freeze him out. Makes a goodish story buy maybe total bollux.
Why would he have been left out of the last Dutch squad then?
Its a cover up
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I think Clark seems to have skipper potential. He's had the armband in the past and did so in the second string and yoofs didn't he? He's actually been the one to take on the senior role alongside Okore to me. Of course he has the benefit of 100 or so games now, which plays a part.
If anything this season the CH who's not really played that well is Vlaar. He had some shaky matches between his last couple of injuries, after a very solid opening couple of games with Phil.
If Vlaar walks straight back into the starting 11 when he's fit, he'll be very lucky.
Someone mentioned on the coach to Burnley that Vlaar ain't injured at all...Lambert's having a strop re his agent/Ron himself and he's chosen to freeze him out. Makes a goodish story buy maybe total bollux.
Ron was completely shit at QPR.
IMHO.
They showed the replays of both QPR goals at half time of one our recent games, he was absolutely shocking for both of them.
The first Dunne looked up and Zamora was pointing to the sky. A big hoof later, Zamora had totally dominated Vlaar physically that he didnt even get off the ground. Sanchez and Clark perhaps could have been a bit quicker to the knockdown but an experienced international defender like Vlaar should not be made a mug of like that in the air by the likes of Bobby Zamora.
Sanchez lost the ball in the build up to the second but it was criminal how Vlaar let Austin run across him to knock it in first time at the near post. Clark has defended the near post extremely well over the last few games, he has had to with Cissokho's struggles.
Centre backs are all about partnerships and we cant afford for our captain to be off injured so often. Baker too is often out injured which is why I would think of cutting him also in the summer.
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Someone mentioned on the coach to Burnley that Vlaar ain't injured at all...Lambert's having a strop re his agent/Ron himself and he's chosen to freeze him out. Makes a goodish story buy maybe total bollux.
Why would he have been left out of the last Dutch squad then?
All part of the massive and mysterious Vlaar conspiracy Dave!
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Centre backs are all about partnerships and we cant afford for our captain to be off injured so often. Baker too is often out injured which is why I would think of cutting him also in the summer.
Bloody hell, no need to go medieval on the poor bastards and take a scalpel to them.
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This club needs a good leeching if you ask me
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Clarks had too many chances now for me. He isn't up to pl standard and it will take a lot more than games with the like of Burnley and Palace to convince me otherwise.
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Clarks had too many chances now for me. He isn't up to pl standard and it will take a lot more than games with the like of Burnley and Palace to convince me otherwise.
You may be right but I think he has earned his place in the team/match day squad for the next few weeks to see if he can cut it in a consistent basis.
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Clarks had too many chances now for me. He isn't up to pl standard and it will take a lot more than games with the like of Burnley and Palace to convince me otherwise.
Also age is a factor. Most players don't mature fully until their late 20s so as long as Clark is showing some portential now (which I think he is) then I think he should have a future at the club. Because of the way Lambert shoehorned these youngesters in before they were ready then I think that has led to a extreme reaction from some supporters on how good or bad they are.
At the moment Clark and Okore look our best partneship at the back.
You may be right but I think he has earned his place in the team/match day squad for the next few weeks to see if he can cut it in a consistent basis.
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Clark has been superb since he's been drafted in. Great goal today too , angled it beautifully past the keeper.
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One thing was evident is that Clark and Wetwood are good mates. Bang, have that you bastard!
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His challenge on their striker today was brilliant. Great controlled aggression.
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Was it Vardy Clark tackled very well
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Nah the tall lanky striker that went off at HT.
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Clark suddenly morphed into Baker with that tackle.
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I personally drop Clark into midfield whilst Westwood out
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I don't think we should disturb the furniture while we're on this good run. Regardless, if Westwood's out, Richardson/Sanchez/Cleverley (hopefully) seems quite well-balanced as a midfield trio
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Agree just cleverly cannot play v united hopefully Delph back buy then
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Great goal and a crunching challenge. Good day at the office for Clark.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Eh ?
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
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I don't think Clark tried to hurt him. I do think it was a bit shit the stick Villa fans gave the Leicester player though.
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He was heroic today. Looks like he's really trying to take his chance - fair play to him.
Thought his tackle was hard but fair - he cleanly took the ball.
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I thought Clark's tackle was well timed and a bit of a "don't fuck with me" after Ulloa had been putting himself about a bit and trying to bully Clark with a couple of attempts at Shearer-esque challenges.
Not nice to see a player get injured, but as one of the biggest complaints about the team in general is that we're too nice, and Clark in particular hasn't been strong enough it was actually nice to see him stand up for himself. And he's definitely been on the weights in the close season, he looks about 50% broader now.
Also noticeable how the team as a whole stepped up the tackling for a while after Westwood was injured. A definite "wind your necks in" statement to Leicester, and again nice to see the team sticking up for themselves.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
It was a great tackle, committed and fair.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Enforcer Clark reported for duty - get in!
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He's had 6 good games. Let's hope he can build on it as he has had in his career one or two false dawns thus far.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
I don't see it that way at all - for me, it was a firm but fair challenge. I think if a challenge like that had been put in to a few of the Tottenham players after the Vertonghen 'challenge' on Westwood thinks would have been different in that game too.
We have been a soft touch for too long.
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That was a quality tackle. Hard but fair. Nothing like Vardy's, who wrapping his legs round Westwood and had no chance getting the ball.
Clark's challenge was old school. Thought he led by example again.
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I loved that tackle for two reasons.
1. It was a great tackle, full blooded and executed perfectly.
2. A great response to the awful tackle dished out on Westwood.
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I think he has grown up and matured over the last few games. Let's hope he can push on now...
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Ciaran was very highly rated by Trapattoni when he was a youngster and hopefully now we will see the reasons why.
I believe going forward that both Clark and Okore will make a formidable partnership and will be the defensive pairing for the Villa for many years to come.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
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Furious over what?
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I don't think the Clark tackle was any different to the ones we see Baker do every now and again. Besides, it was nowhere near as bad as some of the ones Leicester, Spurs and Hull dished out against us.
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The tackle was extremely well-timed, designed to win the ball at speed, which Clark did.
Ulloa is known to "use his physical presence" as part of his game...and he did, by using his arms on several occasions and shoving his hand in Okore's face. He was trying to intimidate our "young" defenders and they didn't take it.
For that they deserve credit.
Ulloa's injury was a genuine accident as a result of a firm tackle, Westwood's was not...Vardy went through him, scissors style, maximising the chance to hurt Westwood (I think there was also a bit of a follow though with his right boot - he should have got a straight red.)
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I don't think Clark actually made contact with anything other than the ball. It was just the impact and direction that he hit the ball that caused the injury to Ulloa. it's not a non-contact sport, and this was a great challenge made clearly within it's rules. Injury's do happen, and whilst misfortunate, I don't think anyone could be angry about the tackle if looking at it rationally.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
In my opinion it was a great tackle by Clark. Clean, took the ball, feet on the floor. If one ouf our players got tackled like that then I would have no problem whatsoever. For the record, if Konchesky deserved the red card then so did Hutton.
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If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
That can be said about most incidents in every game of football ever played
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
In my opinion it was a great tackle by Clark. Clean, took the ball, feet on the floor. If one ouf our players got tackled like that then I would have no problem whatsoever. For the record, if Konchesky deserved the red card then so did Hutton.
Why? Hutton was fouled and then Konchesky clearly stood-over him and said something derogatory to him. Yes, hutton reacted, but I don't think that a shove has ever merited a straight red-card, yellow maybe.
Konchesky's challenge was arguably not a straight-red, but I always think it's dangerous when somebody slides in towards a stationary player. You're giving them very little chance to take evasive action, and if you miss the ball and catch them (as Konchesky did) you're carrying all of the impact meaning there's a greater chance of them getting injured. The best that Konchesky could hope for there was to concede a throw-in deep into our half. It was a reckless challenge and I'm fairly certain any appeal would be thrown out.
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Looks a different player at the moment. Full of confidence and is playing really well. Sitting in the North Stand yesterday, it was interesting to see him being very vocal and having a real go at Benteke for not closing down Schmeichel in the final minutes.
As for his tackle, he definitely intended to 'leave one on' the player, but got the ball first so there wasn't a problem. It could be argued that it was a bit reckless to go in like that in the modern game, as any slight mistiming would result in a definite red card.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
Genuinely, no. I wouldn't be furious. It was a strong but fair challenge.
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Fair play to Clark. He had come very close in recent games to scoring from Westwood's deliveries so no real surprise it came off yesterday. Truly abysmal marking from Leicester it must be said.
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Or just a very good cross, and very good movement and finish by Clark. It's a combination, and it looked like a training ground routine that went to plan.
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Looks a different player at the moment. Full of confidence and is playing really well. Sitting in the North Stand yesterday, it was interesting to see him being very vocal and having a real go at Benteke for not closing down Schmeichel in the final minutes.
As for his tackle, he definitely intended to 'leave one on' the player, but got the ball first so there wasn't a problem. It could be argued that it was a bit reckless to go in like that in the modern game, as any slight mistiming would result in a definite red card.
Has been on poor form for few years but really stepped up again now.Wasn't he captain of the youth sides ? He is very vocal and would make a decent captain.
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Or just a very good cross, and very good movement and finish by Clark. It's a combination, and it looked like a training ground routine that went to plan.
I would have been gutted with our defence. Westwood even signalled to him where to run.
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Clark is playing very well, and I am confident that with the return of one between Vlaar, Senderos or Baker, he could even be employed as defensive midfielder should Westwood be injuried.
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Clarks steamtrain tackle put a smile on my face, too many times I've seen him physically dominated. It looks like his body has matured a bit anyway and he's filled out, so seeing him stick a leveller on someone was great.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
Christ. Where do you even begin with this one?
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As a retired referee my opinion on that Clark tackle, FWIW, can be summed up in one word. To quote Craig Revell-Horwood..."FAB-U-LOUS".
Hard but fair challenges are being slowly eroded from the game. Perhaps the players themselves are to blame. You can see how easy they go down when a gust of wind hits them, so the reaction to a full-blooded tackle as we saw yesterday is bound to be exaggerated to the nth degree.
There is no doubt in my mind that Ulloa was hurt by that tackle but, that's an occupational hazard IMO.
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There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Clark challenge.
In fact, it was an excellent tackle.
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You all seem to be saying it was a good tackle, but what if Benteke was on the receiving end? Would you just dismiss it as an occupational hazard even though there wasn't any need for a tackle like that?
I know I wouldn't!
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Thought it was a good tackle and I don't know what all the fuss is about. The Westwood tackle was nasty though.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
This is ridiculous.
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You all seem to be saying it was a good tackle, but what if Benteke was on the receiving end? Would you just dismiss it as an occupational hazard even though there wasn't any need for a tackle like that?
I know I wouldn't!
So he should've tried to nick the ball away? And then what if he'd failed, and Ulloa was through and scored? He'd be murdered by us.
And I'd imagine trying to do it to Benteke would just leave you in a Chris Smalling shaped mess on the floor.
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There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Clark challenge.
In fact, it was an excellent tackle.
Indeed. My first thoughts after the tackle was I expect Chris Smith loved that. Proper old school challenge.
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You all seem to be saying it was a good tackle, but what if Benteke was on the receiving end? Would you just dismiss it as an occupational hazard even though there wasn't any need for a tackle like that?
I know I wouldn't!
With respect to your opinion, having refereed at most levels for over twenty odd years; I like to think I'm qualified to say that I think I've seen most things regarding the art of tackling and I've seen some beauts. That was the perfect execution of a sliding tackle you could ever wish to see. Clark's feet did not leave the ground until he was within playing distance of the ball, perfectly legal. Next he made full contact with the ball 100%. Given the speed that Clark was travelling when he made contact with the ball; to expect him to stop instantly to avoid colliding with the opponent would be a) impossible and b) to place himself at risk of serious muscular injury if he tried to do so.
On your point of being angry if Benteke had been tackled like that, my answer would be no, not at all, it is more than likely to happen more than once. If he's injured due to a fair challenge then, I reiterate, occupational hazard.
There are very few things in this world I know much about but what I do know is, how to referee a football match and the difference between a hard, fair challenge and a foul. I wouldn't have reached the standard I did if I couldn't do that.
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If Clark had been playing in the 50s to the 70s that would have been a normal full bloodied tackle. Ten a penny in those days.Wouldnt have even been noticed.
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There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Clark challenge.
In fact, it was an excellent tackle.
Indeed. My first thoughts after the tackle was I expect Chris Smith loved that. Proper old school challenge.
Texts between me and RedSox straight after the tackle
RedSox: "Now that's what you call a tackle."
Me: "Old school!"
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The boy is improving, and he wears claret and blue
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You all seem to be saying it was a good tackle, but what if Benteke was on the receiving end? Would you just dismiss it as an occupational hazard even though there wasn't any need for a tackle like that?
I know I wouldn't!
With respect to your opinion, having refereed at most levels for over twenty odd years; I like to think I'm qualified to say that I think I've seen most things regarding the art of tackling and I've seen some beauts. That was the perfect execution of a sliding tackle you could ever wish to see. Clark's feet did not leave the ground until he was within playing distance of the ball, perfectly legal. Next he made full contact with the ball 100%. Given the speed that Clark was travelling when he made contact with the ball; to expect him to stop instantly to avoid colliding with the opponent would be a) impossible and b) to place himself at risk of serious muscular injury if he tried to do so.
On your point of being angry if Benteke had been tackled like that, my answer would be no, not at all, it is more than likely to happen more than once. If he's injured due to a fair challenge then, I reiterate, occupational hazard.
There are very few things in this world I know much about but what I do know is, how to referee a football match and the difference between a hard, fair challenge and a foul. I wouldn't have reached the standard I did if I couldn't do that.
Fair enough.
I wasn't suggesting it was a red card or anything as he did get the ball, but I felt it was too aggressive. I'd prefer our centre backs not to go to ground unless they really had to.
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There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Clark challenge.
In fact, it was an excellent tackle.
Indeed. My first thoughts after the tackle was I expect Chris Smith loved that. Proper old school challenge.
You know me so well.
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The long lost art of the thunderous tackle, marvellous, I think I had a little sex wee.
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The long lost art of the thunderous tackle, marvellous, I think I had a little sex wee.
I enjoyed that as much as a player as I did scoring.
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One thing I have noticed about Clark is he has dramatically reduced, if not eliminated, some of his more "adventurous" attempts to try and keep the ball in play when tackling near the wings. Several times he went over , tackled and coolly put the ball out of of play rather than risk being robbed in possession.
I like that. Make me feel much safer with him.
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The long lost art of the thunderous tackle, marvellous, I think I had a little sex wee.
It was his facial expression and the way he walked away that made it extra special, as if he was saying "Just doing a job of work here, so have a bit of that"
The post tackle equivalent of a player scoring an amazing goal, then nonchalantly walking away with one arm raised, as if it's the most normal thing in the world to loop one in from 30 yards.
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And the fact no attempt whatsoever was made to see if his opponent was still alive.
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And the fact no attempt whatsoever was made to see if his opponent was still alive.
That made it a proper tackle.
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I really enjoyed him making that tackle it was a proper tackle.
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Snap!
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You all seem to be saying it was a good tackle, but what if Benteke was on the receiving end? Would you just dismiss it as an occupational hazard even though there wasn't any need for a tackle like that?
I know I wouldn't!
With respect to your opinion, having refereed at most levels for over twenty odd years; I like to think I'm qualified to say that I think I've seen most things regarding the art of tackling and I've seen some beauts. That was the perfect execution of a sliding tackle you could ever wish to see. Clark's feet did not leave the ground until he was within playing distance of the ball, perfectly legal. Next he made full contact with the ball 100%. Given the speed that Clark was travelling when he made contact with the ball; to expect him to stop instantly to avoid colliding with the opponent would be a) impossible and b) to place himself at risk of serious muscular injury if he tried to do so.
On your point of being angry if Benteke had been tackled like that, my answer would be no, not at all, it is more than likely to happen more than once. If he's injured due to a fair challenge then, I reiterate, occupational hazard.
There are very few things in this world I know much about but what I do know is, how to referee a football match and the difference between a hard, fair challenge and a foul. I wouldn't have reached the standard I did if I couldn't do that.
Fair enough.
I wasn't suggesting it was a red card or anything as he did get the ball, but I felt it was too aggressive. I'd prefer our centre backs not to go to ground unless they really had to.
It was no more aggressive than the way Ulloa had been trying "to put himself about a bit" or to give it's modern name Shearer's elbows.
That was nothing more than Clark (perfectly legally) giving him a "if you want to f#%k with me you're going to get some back."
About time our players started standing up for themselves.
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And the fact no attempt whatsoever was made to see if his opponent was still alive.
Is it just me?
I hate all this helping each other up after a tackle, foul etc...touching/shaking hands every 3 minutes.
You know why you're there - give each other loads of S**T, shake hands at the end.
Job done.
Clark's tackle was a bit like that...I'm gonna get this ball, fair and square...if you happen to be in the way, so be it. I'm not going to help you to your feet, apologise or seek your approval. If you don't like it, tough!
Agree with LeeB...almost as good as a goal!
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It's no surprise that Clark has looked at his worst when partnered with Baker - not known for his brains - over the last couple of years, and at his best when playing with cultured, more intelligent CBs in Vlaar and Okore. As long as he's with them he adds the the physicality to go alongside their ball-playing, in a slightly more controlled and effective way than Baker. He's been excellent last 4 games and I'd love to see him and Okore have a good run together over Xmas and hopefully develop a strong partnership, cause we could certainly do with one in case Concrete nips off to United in January.
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I'm pleased for Clark. Apparently through the youth ages he was always called "skipper" [or something similar] due to his leadership skills. I realise that it's not unusual for a footballer to be given a nickname, but that name implied that he has class and the respect of his peers.
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If Clark had been playing in the 50s to the 70s that would have been a normal full bloodied tackle. Ten a penny in those days.Wouldnt have even been noticed.
I don't think that anybody (bar one person) has really seen it as anything other than a normal tackle even now.
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The long lost art of the thunderous tackle, marvellous, I think I had a little sex wee.
I enjoyed that as much as a player as I did scoring.
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Almost as good as an interception.....
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I thought Clark's tackle was well timed and a bit of a "don't fuck with me" after Ulloa had been putting himself about a bit and trying to bully Clark with a couple of attempts at Shearer-esque challenges.
Not nice to see a player get injured, but as one of the biggest complaints about the team in general is that we're too nice, and Clark in particular hasn't been strong enough it was actually nice to see him stand up for himself. And he's definitely been on the weights in the close season, he looks about 50% broader now.
Also noticeable how the team as a whole stepped up the tackling for a while after Westwood was injured. A definite "wind your necks in" statement to Leicester, and again nice to see the team sticking up for themselves.
It's one of the things Clark was previously criticised for - his lack of muscle - and he went and took the ball and player. Yes, he knew what he was doing but every now and then a situation presents itself for thetackler where you know you can get the ball and smash the player and it will not be a free-kick. He took it and did it well.
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Clark is playing very well, and I am confident that with the return of one between Vlaar, Senderos or Baker, he could even be employed as defensive midfielder should Westwood be injuried.
Not sure Archie. Can't see a reason to split up the Clark and Okore partnership at the moment.
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Clark is playing very well, and I am confident that with the return of one between Vlaar, Senderos or Baker, he could even be employed as defensive midfielder should Westwood be injuried.
Not sure Archie. Can't see a reason to split up the Clark and Okore partnership at the moment.
I wouldn't. I actually think as a unit, Clark and Okore has looked possibly one of our most cohesive partnerships. There's a good balance there. Left foot, right foot. Clark seems to have taken the organisational role. Okore has pace. Both are pretty comfortable coming out with the ball.
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I agree, Blancmange Ron and co. can go on the bench as far as I'm concerned. I suspect we won't see Ron in a Villa shirt again now.
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I agree, Blancmange Ron and co. can go on the bench as far as I'm concerned. I suspect we won't see Ron in a Villa shirt again now.
No I don't think so either, short of Clark or Okore getting injured.
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Through nothing other than bad luck lambert has stumbled upon a very good, assured cb partnership. these are (I imagine) his 4th and 5th choice cb's And have looked really, really good together. But people need to remember just how good Vlaar and Senderos looked together at the start of the campaign. Also, when one of those two went down, Baker also looked immensely composed this season. I don't know whether it's down to maturing as players or the increased competition but for the first time in a couple of seasons I can say I would be gutted to see either clark or baker leave, I think we can now rely on both of them.
My only question over the current two would be against extremes of physical strikers such as Andy Carroll. I would much rather see any of the other 3 deployed to do a job on him.
I don't give him much credit but will give it him when it's due, lambert has given Baker and Clark the experience and game time necessary to develop and has also brought in 3 very good cb's for little outlay.
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I thought Clark and Baker were both finished and would probably be better off leaving in the summer. In my mind, they had never really recovered from the trauma of 18-0.
So much for that theory!
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That tackle was a perfect repost to the Vardy challenge which the ref had inexplicably let him off with a yellow. Clark was clearly pissed, and saw an opportunity to say " we are not going to be pushed around by you lot" in a fair and fairly conclusive way. He executed it with genuine aggression but controlled it to make sure it did not look wild. Alan Green on the commentary said he saw it coming, winced as he made it, but applauded the quality of a good proper challenge that let the forward know he was in a game.
On a general note, it is very noticable that Clark and Okore, when they have a bit of confidence, actually have the ability to be footballers and not just stoppers. That could come in very handy in the long run. There will always be games that Senderos and Baker will be better suited due to the aerial battle, but to have the option is nice.
These 2 should have secured the spots until something forces a change.
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Re. the tackle, I was sat above it. First thought was he's not gonna make it, but by the time he arrived, there was only going to be one winner. Hard, took all of the ball, didn't have eyes for anything else. Raises my spirits to see such.
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Have always seen Clark as a "proper" footballer - good on the ball - but needs a bit too much time.
He has a pretty calm head and excelled against youngsters when he was a youngster himself.
I just think it's taken him some time to settle in and develop his own game/confidence as a senior. He seems to be relishing the responsibility as "leader" of the back 4 and that puts him in the role where he excelled when younger.
Perhaps he now realises just how good he can be.
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Football is a lot to do with luck. Right place at the right time and sometimes adversity falls in your favour. I wonder how much of lambert having being forced to play okore has resulted in him possibly thinking that he can allow Vlaar to leave in January? we have 5 centre-halves all of whom have looked good this season.
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One thing to consider is just how defensive our tactics are. It would be interesting so see how our defence looked if we were to go at teams a bit more than what we are.
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You can not have it both ways, we have conceded 3 goals in five, one a penalty and another a keeper mistake. How good is that point and clean sheet now looking at Upton Park.
ILWT
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Clark is playing very well, and I am confident that with the return of one between Vlaar, Senderos or Baker, he could even be employed as defensive midfielder should Westwood be injuried.
Not sure Archie. Can't see a reason to split up the Clark and Okore partnership at the moment.
I agree that the couple is playing very well in defence, but the reason that could suggest a change is that without Westwood and Cleverley we are short in defensive midfielders. Do not think that Bacuna and/or Richardson are ok for that role, Bacuna is too attacking-minded and Richardson too naif.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
In my opinion it was a great tackle by Clark. Clean, took the ball, feet on the floor. If one ouf our players got tackled like that then I would have no problem whatsoever. For the record, if Konchesky deserved the red card then so did Hutton.
Why? Hutton was fouled and then Konchesky clearly stood-over him and said something derogatory to him. Yes, hutton reacted, but I don't think that a shove has ever merited a straight red-card, yellow maybe.
Konchesky's challenge was arguably not a straight-red, but I always think it's dangerous when somebody slides in towards a stationary player. You're giving them very little chance to take evasive action, and if you miss the ball and catch them (as Konchesky did) you're carrying all of the impact meaning there's a greater chance of them getting injured. The best that Konchesky could hope for there was to concede a throw-in deep into our half. It was a reckless challenge and I'm fairly certain any appeal would be thrown out.
They went brow to brow, followed by Hutton giving him a shove. To be fair to Konchesky Hutton was lying there stricken before jumping to his feet to have a go. So he was feigning injury. Konchesky's challenge was imo worthy of a yellow card at a push. I couldn't give a shit what shirt a player is wearing I can't stand players feigning injury to persuade a referee to give a card out.
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That was a horrendous tackle in my opinion. He clearly went in to hurt the guy and that is something I don't want to see from a Villa player.
Do you honestly believe that Clark intended to hurt his opponent in that challenge? I've not heard that perspective yet.
I do. It was just after Westwood went off and there was absolutely no need to go in like that. What if he'd got sent off? What if that had led to a scuffle where one of our players got sent off? It was a stupid thing to do.
If it was the other way round, I imagine most of us would be furious.
In my opinion it was a great tackle by Clark. Clean, took the ball, feet on the floor. If one ouf our players got tackled like that then I would have no problem whatsoever. For the record, if Konchesky deserved the red card then so did Hutton.
Why? Hutton was fouled and then Konchesky clearly stood-over him and said something derogatory to him. Yes, hutton reacted, but I don't think that a shove has ever merited a straight red-card, yellow maybe.
Konchesky's challenge was arguably not a straight-red, but I always think it's dangerous when somebody slides in towards a stationary player. You're giving them very little chance to take evasive action, and if you miss the ball and catch them (as Konchesky did) you're carrying all of the impact meaning there's a greater chance of them getting injured. The best that Konchesky could hope for there was to concede a throw-in deep into our half. It was a reckless challenge and I'm fairly certain any appeal would be thrown out.
They went brow to brow, followed by Hutton giving him a shove. To be fair to Konchesky Hutton was lying there stricken before jumping to his feet to have a go. So he was feigning injury. Konchesky's challenge was imo worthy of a yellow card at a push. I couldn't give a shit what shirt a player is wearing I can't stand players feigning injury to persuade a referee to give a card out.
As per the Hutton thread, it sounds like you saw a completely different incident to the one that most others did.
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You mean the incident which has since seen the red card rescinded? Which part of what I said do you not agree with? Was Hutton not lying prone on the ground before jumping to his feet after whatever Konchesky said? Did they not go brow to brow with Hutton being the one who gave him a shove? For me it was a yellow for the challenge and a yellow for Hutton for the retaliation. Neither deserved a red and judging my the way Hutton sprang to his feet he was feigning injury in the hope of influencing the ref to give Konchesky a card. That along with the waving of imaginary cards is a personal pet hate.
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I'm not sure Hutton would have feigned injury to get Konchesky carded. I would imagine if there were any element of that it was more for time wasting as there was always a threat Leicester could get back into it given that Schmeichal was in somewhat inspired form. That said had Koncheskey not stood hovering over him and had few words, Hutton would just have got up and walked off.
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I'm not sure Hutton would have feigned injury to get Konchesky carded. I would imagine if there were any element of that it was more for time wasting as there was always a threat Leicester could get back into it given that Schmeichal was in somewhat inspired form. That said had Koncheskey not stood hovering over him and had few words, Hutton would just have got up and walked off.
Exactly this. Hutton's reaction possibly warranted a yellow card, but to make out that he was somehow the perpetrator in the incident is baffling.
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Gentlemen, rather than having two indentical discussions across this thread and the Hutton one how about we leave it there in this thread and carry on in the other?
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Roger that.
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Ok Dave.
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Clark season looks to be over according to reports, feel sorry for him for avoiding getting booked for so many games, only to be ruled out through injury.
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Agree fully with that Goldie.7
It's a sickener for him
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Gentlemen, rather than having two indentical discussions across this thread and the Hutton one how about we leave it there in this thread and carry on in the other?
Gentlemen? I could be a lady and may have commented on this topic :(
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Well Clark is young so there will be many more semi finals and finals for him in the future.
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Clarke is the most improved player in our squad, and will be missed.
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That's a horrible blow for us and him. He's been excellent this year.
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A big blow but thank god it happened now than before vlaar and baker were back
Probably player of the season?
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I'm leaving this here hoping that not too many people will read this thread but Ciaran Clark's old man owns the Black Lion in Kilburn and he's opening at 10am www.blacklionguesthouse.com ssssh don't tell anyone.
Bye
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A big blow but thank god it happened now than before vlaar and baker were back
Probably player of the season?
Would have to be a strong candidate. I think playing the majority of the season alongside a defensively sound left back (Cissokho) has helped him a lot.
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Excellent this season as central defender.
And he can play defensive midfielder and left back (yes, sirs!) aswell.
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has been excellent this season, my vote for villas player of the season
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A big blow but thank god it happened now than before vlaar and baker were back
Probably player of the season?
Would have to be a strong candidate. I think playing the majority of the season alongside a defensively sound left back (Cissokho) has helped him a lot.
Id agree on Clark for player of the year. Hutton would be up there too. We dont have anyone else who has been consistent during the season to be honest.
Id disagree on Cissokho being sound on any attribute, got steadily worse to genuinely awful as the season progressed.
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Interesting how things come about. Baker was being talked about like Clark earlier in the season prior to his injury. Lost his place through no real fault and now for the same reason he gets back in. Being left sided its him ahead of Okore. Good luck big man. Real shame about Clark of course as he has been quite outstanding of late.
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Interesting how things come about. Baker was being talked about like Clark earlier in the season prior to his injury. Lost his place through no real fault and now for the same reason he gets back in. Being left sided its him ahead of Okore. Good luck big man. Real shame about Clark of course as he has been quite outstanding of late.
I think Clark is a much better player than Baker, but I take your point.
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Baker put in arguably our defensive performance of the season at Anfield. Here's to a repeat.
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The official club twitter has said today that Clark is definitely out for the rest of the season, such a shame - without a doubt our player of the season for me.
On a positive note, they've said Senderos will be in the squad for the Man City game.
https://twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/591217330350379008
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For me Clark has been immense for us this season. A young guy who has never given less than 100% every match and so much thrust onto his young shoulders but he has come through it all.
i posted in the team talk thread "ciaran you came into this season a boy you will end it a man and that's down to you and know one else"
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Most improved player of the year award winner, definitely.
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Most people had given up on him when he made a cameo away to West Ham and nearly gave Carroll a penalty at the end. He's been solid ever since.
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This season? Its funny how it works out because up until he went off Baker was looking very good. then Clark comes in and has performed well all season. Who'd have thought that all these relegation battles have made players of them both?
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It is weird how Baker and Clark have at times both had looked awful/fantastic at times in the last couple of seasons and have both suffered both from a variety of injuries just when they're looking settled but also from poor managerial decisions. It must be so frustrating for them both and for Clark in particular now if he is out until the summer. I think he is already a good player and hopefully can continue to improve to a standard where he is in the Villa team of the next few seasons while we're challenging for more trophies and European football.
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Says something now that with him being out, I actually think we'll miss him.
Has been much better this season, more dominant in the air and generally carries himself like a centre half.
I wasn't one of those who wanted to get rid, centre half more than any other position depends so much on experience. Though oddly, his composure on the ball and passing - the main qualities he displayed when he initially broke through- have regressed somewhat.
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Baker is far too in jury prone, as is Vlaar & Senderos.
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Clark, Vlaar, Baker and Okore could be top half centre backs. Not bad for a combined sum of about eight million quid, especially compared to Lovren, mangala and numerous other expensive average players.
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Baker is far too in jury prone, as is Vlaar & Senderos.
Senderos had one injury so I'm not sure saying he's prone to injury is correct. Baker's had reoccurred and Vlaar's keeps recurring so prone is fair in their cases.
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Baker is far too in jury prone, as is Vlaar & Senderos.
Senderos had one injury so I'm not sure saying he's prone to injury is correct. Baker's had reoccurred and Vlaar's keeps recurring so prone is fair in their cases.
Historically Senderos has had a fair few injuries to be honest. If you look back at his career too, despite his age he's probably not played as much as you may imagine. Partly injuries, and partly being a 3rd-4th choice at a couple of clubs (inc Arsenal).
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For some reason some players will be injury prone at one club, leave and then be fine so I was only looking at his Villa career.
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There is something about Clark and' Sherwood having to do without him' in the People today. I couldnt find this article. What does it say exactly?
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I call bullshit. Didn't he play yesterday?
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I call bullshit. Didn't he play yesterday?
He played the whole second half as captain.
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Says West Brom will put in a bit and Pulis will play him left back.
No chance he'll leave, he'll be a regular next season at CB.
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Says West Brom will put in a bit and Pulis will play him left back.
No chance he'll leave, he'll be a regular next season at CB.
We need to get him signed up on a longer contract. Regardless of whether he is good enough (and I think he is) we need to ensure that we negotiate before he holds all the good cards.
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Hmmm...left back for Albion or centre back for Villa. Difficult choice.
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It's most ridiculous rumour of the summer.
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New 5 yr deal today....
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Very good news.
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
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Great news. Him and Westwood are the only two players who are still here that seem to have been made much stronger from the past three terrible seasons.
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great stuff....
UTV
The Doc
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"Villa fans....you're having to hand out extended contracts to stop the Baggies snapping up what's left of your players. Is Ciaran Clark really worth a new deal or have you given up hope of getting anyone better?..."
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Looking forward to hearing WM's "Why Clark should have shown some ambition and gone to Albion" piece this evening.
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Brilliant, brilliant news.
Welcome home Clarky !!
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"Villa fans....you're having to hand out extended contracts to stop the Baggies snapping up what's left of your players. Is Ciaran Clark really worth a new deal or have you given up hope of getting anyone better?..."
'Would Ciaran Clarkkkkkkkk get into the Baggies side ahead of Brown Ideyeeee?'
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"Villa fans....you're having to hand out extended contracts to stop the Baggies snapping up what's left of your players. Is Ciaran Clark really worth a new deal or have you given up hope of getting anyone better?..."
Whereas the reality is that his agent probably needed a bunch of mugs to string along so that a new contract offer was on the table sharpish. Sandwell played the part nicely.
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Was that W*nksie... what a tool. So glad I don't have to listen to that crap anymore.
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Very good news, he improves year after year.
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Excellent news and well deserved. He was superb before his injury so really glad about this one.
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Hope there is a bonus in there for putting the snake that is Delph into row Z
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Good news. I think he can improve further which is what we need from him.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
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Sorry but that's nonsense. We've tied one of our better young players to a long term deal. It's hardly a celebration where we've all got the bunting out. The only downside to this is that it permits 5 more years of some people spelling his last name incorrectly.
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It is nonsense. Clark has showed continual improvement year on year. This season we should hopefully see some real benefit from his increased experience in his role. I wasn't bothered about Baker penning a new deal but Clark, yes, there's a very good player to evolve soon I feel.
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Excellent news.
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
Clark is English
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
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Quote from Clark
“Everyone is looking forward to the new season and I’m delighted to be going into the opening game on Saturday knowing my long-term future has been sorted.”
Means he's off to Citeh..........
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
Clark is English
He's not worth as much as Stones as hes been part of a defence that's been rubbish for years. And he's a few years older.
When Clark first came on the scene I really thought we had a top player on our hands. Playing in midfield under Houllier, showing great composure on the ball and getting goals, he looked like the complete modern centre half. Since then he didnt progress as quickly as I'd hoped, of at all. But when you look at the state of the team and club since then you can see why it's been hard for him. In the second half of last season he was our best defender and IMO showed better and more consistent form than Vlaar at any point in his Villa career. I'm glad he's signed and hope he can become the player I thought he might be.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
Perhaps he will improve as the team improves.
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Central defenders don't usually mature until they are 27/28. So potentially we have tied down Clark for the best years of his career.
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Sorry but that's nonsense. We've tied one of our better young players to a long term deal. It's hardly a celebration where we've all got the bunting out. The only downside to this is that it permits 5 more years of some people spelling his last name incorrectly.
And at least a few more years of people saying he is a young player. He's 26 next month!!
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
Well there's a surprise.
Maybe we should have given him away and then signed him up for £7 or 8M on £70K per week, as that seems to be your only marker for whether someone is good enough or not.
No analysis of whether some of his displays have been cause or symptom of our problems.
No acknowledgment of the fact that the run of games where he was paired with Okore (another player you can't stop deriding) was the one time last year it looked like we'd got a defence worthy of the name.
Still, could be worse, you could be scouting for us.
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It is nonsense. Clark has showed continual improvement year on year. This season we should hopefully see some real benefit from his increased experience in his role. I wasn't bothered about Baker penning a new deal but Clark, yes, there's a very good player to evolve soon I feel.
Disagree somewhat mate. Up until last season, I thought Clark was regressing year on year from the initial potential he showed. I thought last year, however, was a real breakthrough year for him and it finally came together for him. You could literally see him grow in confidence and stature. He now needs to build on that and become a regular for both club and country.
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I think he's improved over the past year. He did look decent alongside Okore and whilst I think we do need to being somebody else in as well, i'm happy enough for him to stay and improve.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
You are both wrong (err...FACT, END OF) and Clark will show you just how excellent a defender he is this season. You can quote this back at me after a couple of months if you like but you won't because on this one I am right!
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The fact he has signed before we become too reliant on him means that his wages will not be too crazy too. Or alternatively, if he does not improve, he is not on Beye type wages so we should shift him if we need to.
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John O'Shea will almost certainly retire when Ireland fail to qualify for Euro 16 so there's a real opportunity there for Clark to become an international regular, maybe even captain once Robbie Keane retires. Then again Martin O'Neill is their manager so he could end up playing second fiddle to Paul McShane. It's going to be an interesting season or two ahead for him.
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It is nonsense. Clark has showed continual improvement year on year. This season we should hopefully see some real benefit from his increased experience in his role. I wasn't bothered about Baker penning a new deal but Clark, yes, there's a very good player to evolve soon I feel.
Disagree somewhat mate. Up until last season, I thought Clark was regressing year on year from the initial potential he showed. I thought last year, however, was a real breakthrough year for him and it finally came together for him. You could literally see him grow in confidence and stature. He now needs to build on that and become a regular for both club and country.
Along side Baker I'll admit he did look like he'd regressed. Generally though I'd say he's improved year on year. Even if to some his football hasn't improved I'd still say his positional sense due to more experience has made him look that bit better.
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Worth it for that tackle on the Leicester player alone.
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
Clark is English
He's Irish
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The picture of Clarke signing and Baker the other day look like their signing in a headmasters office.
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Sorry Clark lot Clarke before the typo backlash!
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Sorry Clark lot Clarke before the typo backlash!
In before the rant😉
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Sorry but that's nonsense. We've tied one of our better young players to a long term deal. It's hardly a celebration where we've all got the bunting out. The only downside to this is that it permits 5 more years of some people spelling his last name incorrectly.
And at least a few more years of people saying he is a young player. He's 26 next month!!
He's young in himself, he's a very young 25.
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Sorry but that's nonsense. We've tied one of our better young players to a long term deal. It's hardly a celebration where we've all got the bunting out. The only downside to this is that it permits 5 more years of some people spelling his last name incorrectly.
And at least a few more years of people saying he is a young player. He's 26 next month!!
He's young in himself, he's a very young 25.
He's a very old 25 years and 11 months. And, for what it's worth, his uncle is a really friendly bloke. And he's an English Irish international.
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
Clark is English
He's Irish
He's both, he was born in England to Irish parents. He's played age group football for England before deciding to go with Ireland at senior level.
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Great news
Wasn't sure about him a season ago but thought he was really good last season , he really improved.
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I like the lad...did well last season. I'm chuffed to bits for him.
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at the risk of sounding really foolish and here goes - I don't think there is a lot between Clark and Cahill
if Cahill had spent a couple of seasons leaning about the game surrounded by an inexperienced back 4
he would have looked dangerously ropey at times like Clark
the same as if Clark had played along side John Terry (who everyone dislikes including me but is head and shoulders the best CH in the prem ) he would look pretty solid like Cahill
so there you go, you can all laugh at me now
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Excellent news. Prior to his injury he was really developing into a very solid and brave CB. If he was English he'd be worth a lot more than he is considering the numbers being thrown about for Stones. We still need some competition in that area of the squad but locking down Clark was very important.
Clark is English
He's Irish
He's both, he was born in England to Irish parents. He's played age group football for England before deciding to go with Ireland at senior level.
The point about his nationality is in reference to how "English" players (players who have declared for England) are often overvalued. For example if Raheem Sterling was English but had chosen through a family link to play for Ireland he wouldn't have been 49m. In a similar vein, if Jack Grealish chooses England and not Ireland, and has a fabulous season, then his value would far exceed what it would be had he declared for Ireland instead.
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid. It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid. It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?
I agree on the point to an extent, the difference in value between Stones and Amavi serves as proof of that and it happens because of the constant calling for 'experience of this league'. I'm not convinced that Clark with a few England caps is worth significantly more than he is currently though because he has that experience.
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid. It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?
I agree on the point to an extent, the difference in value between Stones and Amavi serves as proof of that and it happens because of the constant calling for 'experience of this league'. I'm not convinced that Clark with a few England caps is worth significantly more than he is currently though because he has that experience.
I think a better example is Amavi vs Luke Shaw. Or Amavi vs that kid Arsenal signed from Southampton. Would either have been valued to that level had they been another nationality?
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid. It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?
I agree on the point to an extent, the difference in value between Stones and Amavi serves as proof of that and it happens because of the constant calling for 'experience of this league'. I'm not convinced that Clark with a few England caps is worth significantly more than he is currently though because he has that experience.
I think a better example is Amavi vs Luke Shaw. Or Amavi vs that kid Arsenal signed from Southampton. Would either have been valued to that level had they been another nationality?
If Amavi had come through the Southampton youth system and had a couple of seasons playing in the Premier League then I don't think his French-ness wouldn't stop his transfer fee being higher than what we paid.
Would Schneiderlin have cost more than the £25m that Man Utd paid had he been English rather than French? Or perhaps more to the point, if they'd bought Schneiderlin from Lyon would they be paying £25m for him, or more likely the £7-8m that we're paying for Ligue 1 players. If it's the latter, that suggests that the price is warped by where their football is played rather than their nationality.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but it's not their innate English-ness that people are playing for, it's the experience they have of English football and the systems that go with it. It just so happens that there are more English players than French players in the youth teams of English sides.
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It is nonsense. Clark has showed continual improvement year on year. This season we should hopefully see some real benefit from his increased experience in his role. I wasn't bothered about Baker penning a new deal but Clark, yes, there's a very good player to evolve soon I feel.
Disagree somewhat mate. Up until last season, I thought Clark was regressing year on year from the initial potential he showed. I thought last year, however, was a real breakthrough year for him and it finally came together for him. You could literally see him grow in confidence and stature. He now needs to build on that and become a regular for both club and country.
Along side Baker I'll admit he did look like he'd regressed. Generally though I'd say he's improved year on year. Even if to some his football hasn't improved I'd still say his positional sense due to more experience has made him look that bit better.
To be honest, I think his positional sense and ability on the ball have always been there, but he was lacking physicality and was easily pushed around. I thought he had more of a physical edge last season and I said in an earlier post, you could see him growing in stature by the game. I remember late in one game last season when we were holding onto a lead and Benteke repeatedly did not close the keeper down and let him come out with the ball and kick deep into our half. Clark ran half the pitch to tear a strip off Benteke which I thought showed how much he had come on in terms of leadership.
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He was great last year and this is really good news
He's still young for a centre half. How many really good centre halves are under 24 in the current game?
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So how expensive would Gareth Bale have been were he English?
Good question, but with Bale, he is simply an outstanding world class level talent ensuring he ended up at a club like Real Madrid. It's the good players that English clubs overpay for that is baffling. Not saying Sterling isn't good, or Stones but the prices being quoted or even paid are nuts. Who's that Man City bought from Fulham the other day?
I agree on the point to an extent, the difference in value between Stones and Amavi serves as proof of that and it happens because of the constant calling for 'experience of this league'. I'm not convinced that Clark with a few England caps is worth significantly more than he is currently though because he has that experience.
I think a better example is Amavi vs Luke Shaw. Or Amavi vs that kid Arsenal signed from Southampton. Would either have been valued to that level had they been another nationality?
If Amavi had come through the Southampton youth system and had a couple of seasons playing in the Premier League then I don't think his French-ness wouldn't stop his transfer fee being higher than what we paid.
Would Schneiderlin have cost more than the £25m that Man Utd paid had he been English rather than French? Or perhaps more to the point, if they'd bought Schneiderlin from Lyon would they be paying £25m for him, or more likely the £7-8m that we're paying for Ligue 1 players. If it's the latter, that suggests that the price is warped by where their football is played rather than their nationality.
Obviously this is all conjecture, but it's not their innate English-ness that people are playing for, it's the experience they have of English football and the systems that go with it. It just so happens that there are more English players than French players in the youth teams of English sides.
I think the clamour for English players as part of a required quota has driven the price up disproportionate to their value. Luke Shaw was £30m after one season in the PL with Southampton. Calum Chambers joined Arsenal for £16m and hadn't even played in more than a handful of games. Raheem Sterling £49m after really one good season at Liverpool. John Stones is just now a regular at Everton and is being valued at in excess of £30m. I guess my point is how much difference in quality is there between Clark and Stones as an example and if he was a few years younger and English would he be being linked to a big move. I don't know, just interesting to see what has happened to the value of English players.
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I'm pleased with this.
He seemed to come on a bundle last season...our best CB and potential captain...a number on here, me included, thought him good enough for that role.
If he can maintain, or hopefully build on, his form last season he'll be worth every penny.
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I think he did much better last season and ahead of Baker. I tend to be harsher on the defenders as they have been generally our Achilles heel, (well apart from when we went ages without scoring) but it must be tougher when losing or being on the back foot becomes more the norm.
He needs to improve distribution and minimise any costly errors, but he was not alone in that department.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
Well there's a surprise.
Maybe we should have given him away and then signed him up for £7 or 8M on £70K per week, as that seems to be your only marker for whether someone is good enough or not.
No analysis of whether some of his displays have been cause or symptom of our problems.
No acknowledgment of the fact that the run of games where he was paired with Okore (another player you can't stop deriding) was the one time last year it looked like we'd got a defence worthy of the name.
Still, could be worse, you could be scouting for us.
The tone of your reply to me sounds a bit spiteful, God knows why.
As for the content, well our defence has been a mess for a number of years now and all our collection of centrebacks have played their part in it. I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co but if they stay and improve then great, but I doubt they're capable though. Time will tell of course...
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I think the clamour for English players as part of a required quota has driven the price up disproportionate to their value.
Again, there's no quota for English players - there's a quota for 'home-grown' players, regardless of their nationality.
It just that in England, a lot of the players who meet that description happen to be English. But if you had two brothers who came through an academy together, made their debut at the same time, performed just the same as each other - I don't think that if one declared for England and one declared for say, the country of his parents' birth then I don't think their transfer fees are going to be particularly different because of it.
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I'm pleased he's signed a new deal he will only get better.
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I rate Clark. He has done well in difficult circumstances. Would be great to have another experienced quality CB for him to learn from.Hopefully with a better team around him this year he will come on a bundle.
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Ciaran Clark has been through the mill over the last few seasons, but in my view has never given less than his all for the team.
He deserves this deal and I think will one day become captain maybe sooner rather than later and good luck to him if he does.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
Well there's a surprise.
Maybe we should have given him away and then signed him up for £7 or 8M on £70K per week, as that seems to be your only marker for whether someone is good enough or not.
No analysis of whether some of his displays have been cause or symptom of our problems.
No acknowledgment of the fact that the run of games where he was paired with Okore (another player you can't stop deriding) was the one time last year it looked like we'd got a defence worthy of the name.
Still, could be worse, you could be scouting for us.
The tone of your reply to me sounds a bit spiteful, God knows why.
As for the content, well our defence has been a mess for a number of years now and all our collection of centrebacks have played their part in it. I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co but if they stay and improve then great, but I doubt they're capable though. Time will tell of course...
Spiteful? Nope - try sarcastic, with a side order of pissed off.
I'm probably posting on a day where I should stay away from fora like this but fuck it, here goes.
For years now, all we've heard from you is an incessant whine about we deserve this that and the other and that Lerner should just keep pouring money into the black hole that has been our finances.
Well you know what. We we might like to think so but we don't deserve any more than our acumen on and of the field allow for.
The reason we're in a position to do what we're trying to do this summer? Try all the shit we've been through for the last 3 or 4 years.
And then, in pretty much your first post in months, you stick your neck over the parapet and start sniping at a guy who was one of the few bright spots of last year.
My comment about letting him go then signing him for a fortune was because that seems to be precisely how you judge a players worth. If he hasn't cost £10M+ on £50K per week wages then he must be shit seems to be your mantra.
You've never got your head around that yes, the excesses of the MON years, really have had an impact through to now (exacerbated by the stupid contracts that were handed out under McLeish)
You've never accepted that throwing money at it MON style was only ever going end badly, and to keep doing would just have made a bad situation worse.
Has the defensive performance over the last 4-5 years been acceptable? No
Is that down to the centre backs alone? No
You say "I want to see the back of Baker, Clark and co" does that mean all 5 of them? That doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
So who other than Baker and Clark do you want to go?
Vlaar? You finally got your wish.
Senderos? Fair enough, maybe, depending on injuries.
Okore? One of the brightest prospects in Europe 3 years ago. Turned down Chelsea to play first team football. Came back from a serious injury to form the best partnership we've seen in the last 3 seasons (with Clark the guy you definitely want out) The guy who played through injuries with Vlaar because they were the last two who could still stand up, and is now paying the price with rehab after yet another op?
That's why I'm sarcastic towards you.
As to why I'm pissed off. Got bugger all to do with you and I'm sorry if this feels like picking on you.
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Moving swiftly on......will it rain tomorrow ?
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Moving swiftly on......will it rain tomorrow ?
Well it ain't stopped here all fucking day!
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Well we had a nice day until about 6.
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I don't have to justify when I post, and it certainly wasn't my first post in months either so I don't know where you're coming from with that one. I've been consistent with my opinion on Villa over the last 5 years and looking at our league positions over that time certainly doesn't make me regret it
I've been pretty pleased at our buys so far this summer, and I've said so much on here as well. You make it sound like I'm some kind of troll who does nothing but criticise 100% of the time just to wind people up. That isn't the case and I resent you giving that impression.
If I have an opinion on Villa I'll give it. If you don't like it don't read it.
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I didn't say that you have to justify when you post, but I've certainly not seen your name much over the last few months, which is why it would be relevant if, in amidst a general upswing in humour amongst most posters, even some of our more habitually negative posters, you showed up, pretty much out of the blue with a complete haymaker type swing at a player who was one of the few bright spots last year.
Can't argue that your opinion hasn't been consistent over the last few years. We don't spend enough, regardless of what we can afford.
I'm not saying you're a troll, but to me you are almost unrelentingly negative, and your answer to everything is spend more money, regardless of what we can afford.
Of course if you've got an opinion you should give it.
That last sentence doesn't quite work does it? To make my mind up I'll have to read it, by which time it will be too late if I decide i don't like it.
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The last 5 years have made me negative, or would you rather a messageboard full of cheerleaders jumping up and down with pom poms with inane grins of their faces while the team lurches from one disaster to another?
Again, I don't have to justify when I post and I've certainly never been a prolific poster like others on here but that's not to say I haven't commented on the players we've signed this summer because I have and I've been positive about them. You are wrong to suggest I only pipe up to criticise, but I'll certainly criticise when I feel I should. I've never been a fan of Clark, or Baker, or even Okore, and the sooner they've gone the better. That's just my opinion though which I'm entitled to.
I don't know why you've had a go at me because I can honestly say I've never even noticed your name before.
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Much improved last season, deserves the deal, but needs to maintain his performance levels. When TSM2 took over he said Clark was a defender, not a midfielder. We've just started to see it.
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I didn't say that you have to justify when you post, but I've certainly not seen your name much over the last few months, which is why it would be relevant if, in amidst a general upswing in humour amongst most posters, even some of our more habitually negative posters, you showed up, pretty much out of the blue with a complete haymaker type swing at a player who was one of the few bright spots last year.
Can't argue that your opinion hasn't been consistent over the last few years. We don't spend enough, regardless of what we can afford.
I'm not saying you're a troll, but to me you are almost unrelentingly negative, and your answer to everything is spend more money, regardless of what we can afford.
Of course if you've got an opinion you should give it.
That last sentence doesn't quite work does it? To make my mind up I'll have to read it, by which time it will be too late if I decide i don't like it.
That to me seems more than a bit harsh.
Not rating Clark (and I disagree) is hardly the height of controversy.
If that's what he thinks, he's perfectly entitled to say it. I certainly don't see much in his post to trigger such a response, in any case.
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In addition SH never shuts up so the first post in months bit is wide of the mark :-)
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Guys, crack out the Garibaldis and let's just all smoke some pints.
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(http://cdn.ipernity.com/138/33/93/27403393.876dc2c3.560.jpg?r2)
Anyway I thought Clark kind of came into his own last season bit like Delph the season before. I am pretty happy he is sticking around.
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Out of most our young players he seems like one of the most promising and had a solid season last considering how we struggled. Of course I don't expect him to stay the extra five years, but its a positive statement to advance his deal.
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Clark was excellent last year, so I can't see why anyone wouldn't be happy with this. If he continues to develop he could be very very good.
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If they'd given him this contract this time last year I'd have been pretty shocked.
Last year though, he was on for Player of the Season for me until the injury and showed enough to suggest he can be a really commanding centre back. So I'm pleased, I really hope he kicks on now.
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I wouldn't go as far as to say he was excellent, for me, he was competent, which stood out in a team full of bad performances. He deserves a new deal but I've no doubt Tim will want high standards from him and if they aren't met he will be gone.
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Saunders_Heroes: you've been consistent in your rating of Clark. Fair enough, I respect that.
I've also been consistent in hoping that Clark would come good. Last season, I think he did so.
He deserves another year, and I think he will benefit from working alongside Richards. The crucial factor will be fitness: if both keep fit, we'll do okay.
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SH ain't that bad. Are you sure you're not confusing him with the other bloke?
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Clark played very well with Okore I thought, was a good combination.
Hopefully him and Richards is a good combo aswell as that will be the partnership for the first few weeks at least.
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Yes, Clark + Okore did very well together and seemed to understand each other very well.
The problem we have had at the Villa is that we can't keep a centre back partnership together for more than three games in a row.
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I wonder if we'll go back three when Okore returns, certainly would put me more at ease with Richard's suicidal surges from the back.
Surprised 3-5-2 hasn't been played in pre season, would prefer it to 4-4-2.
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I wonder if we'll go back three when Okore returns, certainly would put me more at ease with Richard's suicidal surges from the back.
Surprised 3-5-2 hasn't been played in pre season, would prefer it to 4-4-2.
wouldnt be surprised to see Okore get his place back once he gets fit again. he is a solid character. made a good few mistakes last year but still showed a lot of promise too and combined well with Clark. The Okore/Clark pairing was our strongest since the days of Collins/Dunne under MON....not the booze brothers days
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Three centre halfs has worked well for us in the past.
I would have liked to play this a couple of seasons ago when we had problems defensively at full back. A few of our fullbacks showed promise going forward, but were crap defensively. Mind you, we had problems fielding two fit centre halfs, let alone three.
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I wonder if we'll go back three when Okore returns, certainly would put me more at ease with Richard's suicidal surges from the back.
Surprised 3-5-2 hasn't been played in pre season, would prefer it to 4-4-2.
I would prefer the 4-2-3-1 system tbh for this game
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I'm not that bothered by Richards making one burst forward from the back per game
It's more the shape with Clark and Hutton on a constant basis which is a bit of a risk. See first goal v forest plus a couple of other times in the first 20 mins. Could have drove a bus through their
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The last 5 years have made me negative, or would you rather a messageboard full of cheerleaders jumping up and down with pom poms with inane grins of their faces while the team lurches from one disaster to another?
Again, I don't have to justify when I post and I've certainly never been a prolific poster like others on here but that's not to say I haven't commented on the players we've signed this summer because I have and I've been positive about them. You are wrong to suggest I only pipe up to criticise, but I'll certainly criticise when I feel I should. I've never been a fan of Clark, or Baker, or even Okore, and the sooner they've gone the better. That's just my opinion though which I'm entitled to.
I don't know why you've had a go at me because I can honestly say I've never even noticed your name before.
We've disagreed quite vigorously at times, on many subjects, but I'll stick for you a bit here because on the few occasions we've done something good in the last few years you're one of the first to celebrate.
It's a clear distinction to the doom merchants, who seem to disappear once form upturns.
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The last 5 years have made me negative, or would you rather a messageboard full of cheerleaders jumping up and down with pom poms with inane grins of their faces while the team lurches from one disaster to another?
Again, I don't have to justify when I post and I've certainly never been a prolific poster like others on here but that's not to say I haven't commented on the players we've signed this summer because I have and I've been positive about them. You are wrong to suggest I only pipe up to criticise, but I'll certainly criticise when I feel I should. I've never been a fan of Clark, or Baker, or even Okore, and the sooner they've gone the better. That's just my opinion though which I'm entitled to.
I don't know why you've had a go at me because I can honestly say I've never even noticed your name before.
We've disagreed quite vigorously at times, on many subjects, but I'll stick for you a bit here because on the few occasions we've done something good in the last few years you're one of the first to celebrate.
It's a clear distinction to the doom merchants, who seem to disappear once form upturns.
Hear hear
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I don't have to justify when I post, and it certainly wasn't my first post in months either so I don't know where you're coming from with that one. I've been consistent with my opinion on Villa over the last 5 years and looking at our league positions over that time certainly doesn't make me regret it
I've been pretty pleased at our buys so far this summer, and I've said so much on here as well. You make it sound like I'm some kind of troll who does nothing but criticise 100% of the time just to wind people up. That isn't the case and I resent you giving that impression.
If I have an opinion on Villa I'll give it. If you don't like it don't read it.
Good man, don't ever stop posting on here, some of us know what a good guy you are.
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Yes, Clark + Okore did very well together and seemed to understand each other very well.
The problem we have had at the Villa is that we can't keep a centre back partnership together for more than three games in a row.
As a template Clark/Okore is pretty similar to Richards/Clark as both Okore and Richards are right footed and have pace.
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I thought Clark was excellent at times today.
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I thought Clark was excellent at times today.
Clark made one error in allowing the striker onside and Guzan helped it out. Other than that, he was excellent I thought, but for the silly booking
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I thought Clark was excellent at times today.
Clark made one error in allowing the striker onside and Guzan helped it out. Other than that, he was excellent I thought, but for the silly booking
The booking made me as angry as conceding would. Why on earth is he charging into that challenge on the stroke of half time with no chance of getting near the ball. Just idiotic.
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I thought Clark was excellent at times today.
Clark made one error in allowing the striker onside and Guzan helped it out. Other than that, he was excellent I thought, but for the silly booking
The booking made me as angry as conceding would. Why on earth is he charging into that challenge on the stroke of half time with no chance of getting near the ball. Just idiotic.
It just looked like a misjudgement of the flight of the ball and so to cover himself he committed the foul. The equivalent of pulling back a player who goes past you.
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Hope this is the season Clark finally comes of age in the top flight, seem like he's been almost there for a while now and, at 26, I can understand the opinion that we should move him on even though I don't agree with it. Keep him fit this season and I think alongside either Okore or Richards he'll perform really well and maybe even start upping his goal rate!
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If Clark plays like he did for the second half of last season he can be a very good player.
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Yeah I thought last year was when he came of age
It was such a massive error not to give him a couple of years on loan when he was much younger
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Excellent yesterday, what's really good is him and Richards looked very good dealing with crosses. Defending the high ball has been a weak spot in recent times, we conceded a lot from Sherwood coming in last season.
He does pick up a lot of yellow cards though, he got about 12 last season didn't he?
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I thought Clark was excellent at times today.
Clark made one error in allowing the striker onside and Guzan helped it out. Other than that, he was excellent I thought, but for the silly booking
The booking made me as angry as conceding would. Why on earth is he charging into that challenge on the stroke of half time with no chance of getting near the ball. Just idiotic.
It just looked like a misjudgement of the flight of the ball and so to cover himself he committed the foul. The equivalent of pulling back a player who goes past you.
It was, but it was his arm swinging round that made it look worse than a misjudgement and resulted in the card. It was so unnecessary for a central defender to get booked on half way bis judging the flight of a ball.
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One of the most pleasing aspects of his development is that he gives away a lot less stupid & needless fouls. The one for the booking was needless but 1 a game I can live with.
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Clark is improving. Although, centre half is an area I think we should still strengthen. I imagine Baker could still go out on loan. Senderos will leave, and Okore isn't fit.
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One of the most pleasing aspects of his development is that he gives away a lot less stupid & needless fouls. The one for the booking was needless but 1 a game I can live with.
It could have cost us a goal though. I do like Clark. I really thought he was going to be wasted potential but now I'm hopeful he can strike up a really good partnership with Richards. They seem well suited.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
You are both wrong (err...FACT, END OF) and Clark will show you just how excellent a defender he is this season. You can quote this back at me after a couple of months if you like but you won't because on this one I am right!
Ah-fucking-em
I'll continue to remind you after every excellent game he has. which will be most of them.
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Personally I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs in defence if we're celebrating Clark getting a new deal. If we were a half decent side, or had any decent defenders then Clark would struggle to get in the side, let alone a new deal on better terms.
i
Agree with this. He's one of players I'd like to have seen got rid of this summer not sign up for a new long term deal. Perhaps he's been signed up so we can ask for a higher transfer fee in the near future, but either way he's not good enough if we want to improve as a team.
You are both wrong (err...FACT, END OF) and Clark will show you just how excellent a defender he is this season. You can quote this back at me after a couple of months if you like but you won't because on this one I am right!
Ah-fucking-em
I'll continue to remind you after every excellent game he has. which will be most of them.
I hope you do.
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Great to see CC doing so well.
Someone who met him told me what a nice bloke he was.
Unlike some modern footballers.
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Anyone know the name/location of the pub his relative supposedly owns in North London. Might watch a game in there if it's half decent.
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Caught ball watching for their goal yesterday.
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Looked more like he simply lost a wrestling match with someone bigger than him to me.
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Looked more like he simply lost a wrestling match with someone bigger than him to me.
I agree. As much as he has improved recently, if he was one major flaw its that he has problems with the bigger opponents.
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I thought Dann fouled him to be honest. Maybe.
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I think Alladyce got it right on MOTD: Clark was too tight and got mugged as Dann ran in. Let's hope he has learned from this..
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I think Alladyce got it right on MOTD: Clark was too tight and got mugged as Dann ran in. Let's hope he has learned from this..
not the first time is it.
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Otherwise impressive though. I think it would be a bit of an insult if we brought in Lescott to replace him.
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Looked more like he simply lost a wrestling match with someone bigger than him to me.
He's 6ft 2ins thats quite big!
but I didnt realise Dann was 6ft 5" so yes you are correct.
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I like Clark but that was absolute garbage!
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Get him out.
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He's not up to much lately but he's still better than Lescott when played on the left.
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He's not up to much lately but he's still better than Lescott when played on the left.
Just about but it's a toss up. They're as likely as each other to fuck up and gift a goal. In fact, Lescott not reading what was happening to Clark makes him partly responsible in my book. It was the third minute, it's not like he's blowing out his arse.
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There was a spell towards the back end of last season, just before he picked up his injury, where I thought Clark was brilliant. He was a yellow card away from a ban, yet, week in, week out, he seemed to play some great stuff whilst not getting himself in the book. We certainly missed him in the Final. Last night he looked a little rusty but I reckon a run of games will get him back into the kind of form he displayed last season - I'd certainly have him in ahead of Lescott.
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Surprised they have not been working on his upper body strength. Saw him get similarly out muscled by Gomez when he scored for Swansea at VP last season.
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Clark seems to run very 'upright' with no flexibility, limiting his upper body strength and balance
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*Gomis
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The whole of the back five selected last night has "Championship" written all over it.
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*Gomis
Speaking of whom, allegedly has £8m release clause, worked with our new manager at Lyon and would go a long way to addressing immediate issues.
I'm sure there's room there to increase our bid should anyone else come in.
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*Gomis
Speaking of whom, allegedly has £8m release clause, worked with our new manager at Lyon and would go a long way to addressing immediate issues.
I'm sure there's room there to increase our bid should anyone else come in.
Where was that reported?
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*Gomis
Speaking of whom, allegedly has £8m release clause, worked with our new manager at Lyon and would go a long way to addressing immediate issues.
I'm sure there's room there to increase our bid should anyone else come in.
Would love Gomis. Big, strong, has a bit of everything about him.
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*Gomis
Speaking of whom, allegedly has £8m release clause, worked with our new manager at Lyon and would go a long way to addressing immediate issues.
I'm sure there's room there to increase our bid should anyone else come in.
I don't think that's true.
I remember it being reported that the terms of his free transfer guaranteed Gomis £8m, regardless of how long he spent at Swansea.
So if they sold him after a year, they owed him the remainder of the money.
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Why on earth would they sell him or her join us though?
The chances of a good established PL player joining us at this point must be pretty much zero.
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It's been about 5 years since he broke through in to the first team. Makes too many mistakes to be a starter. Once Okore is fit, Clark should only be back up.
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It's no wonder Tiago Ilori doesn't get a look in when the club website can't even get his name right.
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Why on earth would they sell him or her join us though?
The chances of a good established PL player joining us at this point must be pretty much zero.
Dave is probably more informed than me and I may be mistaken, but putting that aside, am I really going to have to explain the concept of a release clause again?
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It's been about 5 years since he broke through in to the first team. Makes too many mistakes to be a starter. Once Okore is fit, Clark should only be back up.
I can't see Okore as a left sided centre back to be honest, he's far more suited to the right, perhaps Ilori could play on the left?
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It's no wonder Tiago Ilori doesn't get a look in when the club website can't even get his name right.
On those grounds then Garde wouldn't be here either!
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Best of luck to Ciaran tonight. Starting on the left side of a two, that may become a three, for Ireland tonight. COYBIG
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Best of luck to Ciaran tonight. Starting on the left side of a two, that may become a three, for Ireland tonight. COYBIG
Did very well from what I could see, fog made the game a farce
nice reducer tackle again from him, the Bosnian guy limped off later on
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When Clark plays as the left sided CB he can look and generally is quite good. It's when he is asked to play on the right (eg Spurs) he looks lost and gets beaten on his weak side far too easily.
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Always liked him yes he does make mistakes and when your down in our position it gets highlighted
But always gives his all for the shirt
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Had a good solid game for Ireland. Needs a good run of games now at left sided center half I reckon - should be first choice for that position in my opinion.
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Best of luck to Ciaran tonight. Starting on the left side of a two, that may become a three, for Ireland tonight. COYBIG
Did very well from what I could see, fog made the game a farce
nice reducer tackle again from him, the Bosnian guy limped off later on
Classic tackle, flew into a 50-50.
He did let one of their attackers get on the wrong side of him in the firrt half which almost led to a goal but overall he was solid. Would he have been picked though if other defenders were not injured?
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was named as MOTM in the Independent
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Best of luck to Ciaran tonight. Starting on the left side of a two, that may become a three, for Ireland tonight. COYBIG
Did very well from what I could see, fog made the game a farce
nice reducer tackle again from him, the Bosnian guy limped off later on
Classic tackle, flew into a 50-50.
He did let one of their attackers get on the wrong side of him in the firrt half which almost led to a goal but overall he was solid. Would he have been picked though if other defenders were not injured?
He started against Georgia, next to O'Shea I think, but missed the Germany and Poland games through injury that Richie Keogh from Derby did well in.
Big call but I think MON will be cautious and bring JOS back for the return leg, next to Keogh I'd say. Personally Id stay with Keogh and Clark.
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Best of luck to Ciaran tonight. Starting on the left side of a two, that may become a three, for Ireland tonight. COYBIG
Did very well from what I could see, fog made the game a farce
nice reducer tackle again from him, the Bosnian guy limped off later on
Classic tackle, flew into a 50-50.
He did let one of their attackers get on the wrong side of him in the firrt half which almost led to a goal but overall he was solid. Would he have been picked though if other defenders were not injured?
He started against Georgia, next to O'Shea I think, but missed the Germany and Poland games through injury that Richie Keogh from Derby did well in.
Big call but I think MON will be cautious and bring JOS back for the return leg, next to Keogh I'd say. Personally Id stay with Keogh and Clark.
Same here and and I think you are right about what MoN will do.
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Clark I think is a player that gets better with more game time, when he has an extended run he tends to get better and better, would say that with Ciaran it really is a confidence thing.
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Didn't see the Irish game tonight, but all reports suggest he had a good game. Becoming a regular fixture at international level will surely only help him.
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Clark captained England at youth levels under 18 19 and 20 . Then did a switch to Ireland as a full international. He's decent enough to play for England at centre back but I guess as a wide choice at centre half it was tough for him so made a career decision. I've always like Clark and think he should get a decent run. He was actually man of match in my opinion v man city and did q great tackle I think on navas thundering in meaning business. Well done tonight ciran great efforts .
I'm wondering what chats he had with greslish about staying at Ireland.
Well done to shay given too tonight.
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Well done to shay given too tonight.
Why, what was he up to?
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Officially joined Newcastle today. I wish him no ill will after 15+ years at the club.
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Officially joined Newcastle today. I wish him no ill will after 16 years at the club.
I echo that sentiment.
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Officially joined Newcastle today. I wish him no ill will after 15+ years at the club.
I would go with similar, with the slight amendment that I wish him two or three inappropriate Cruyft turns on the edge of his own box each time we play Newcastle
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A decent professional who never became the player we hoped he would be. We will watch his progress with interest.
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Bye
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I wonder if the Toon are happy about that?
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Utter rubbish. From Laursen and King Olaf to shite like him.
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Thanks for the service but sorry I won't miss you.
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Good luck to the lad, a good servant. It may not be coincidence that his spell in the first team corresponded with us being absolutely appalling, especially in defense.
I hope he does well for some of his games up there.
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Clark and Baker, the worst pairing I've seen at Villa Park for a good 30 years.
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Utter rubbish. From Laursen and King Olaf to shite like him.
Seconded. My lasting memory will be him watching flat footed while that blue nosed Watford twat Deeney did jump and score at VP last season. Unfortunately this was not a one off.
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I'll be "interested" to see how he does up there. There's a nagging feeling that there's a player in there somewhere, but his habit of a fuck up a game has hampered his progress. He was never going to imporve here, so a good deal all round, and if Rafa can get him cutting out mistakes it might be a good signing for them. Sounds like he's been signed as a utility cover player through from Rafa's quotes which probably won't help him settle into a role.
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I kind of liked him. Far too slow for the Prem but might do okay at this level. I think the only thing we might miss about him is his occasional goal.
He'll probably go on to have the same impact as Albrighton did when he left.
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3 Words
No Great Loss
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Ultimately he was a let down. I had high hopes when he debuted, and he never really pushed on. To me he's no better than he was 7 years ago.
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Ultimately he was a let down. I had high hopes when he debuted, and he never really pushed on. To me he's no better than he was 7 years ago.
Agree with this.
Saddened that he did not push on.
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Ultimately he was a let down. I had high hopes when he debuted, and he never really pushed on. To me he's no better than he was 7 years ago.
Which is remarkable isn't it? You always see him as a promising lad who should come good, but he's 26 and never looked like consistently performing.
I wouldn't be surprised if he does ok there, but he had stagnated with us and it was probably time for a move all round.
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I liked him, he always tried his best. That said, simply trying your best isn't enough. He was too prone to silly mistakes. I'd like to wish him luck but, as he's gone to a team predicted to be a rival, I can't.
A Ridgewell-style own goal when we visit the Theatre of Topless Fat Blokes would be nice.
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I won't miss him and his inability to concentrate at all.
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Ultimately he was a let down. I had high hopes when he debuted, and he never really pushed on. To me he's no better than he was 7 years ago.
Agree with this.
Saddened that he did not push on.
this
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I don't know why he has opted to leave but considering he's been at the club since he was a kid, represented us at all levels and was our only representative at Euro 2016 he should leave with our best wishes and get a warm reception on his return. He was thrown in as a teenager during a terrible era, was brave and never ducked a tackle, good luck Colin Clarke.
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Fare ye well, Kieran Clarke. I liked you, even if not many did.
Mind you, I also saw huge promise in Ridgewell and Scimeca, so I know feck all.
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He was shit but at least he tried which puts him a level above most of the others.
Good luck Ken Clarke.
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I liked Clark as a person, always come across well and wasn't one of these flashy fuckers.
But you weren't very good.
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Yeah, disappointing.
The one thing I was particularly hopeful for was the fact that when he came through, he looked genuinely assured on the ball, which made you think that maybe midfield was a possibility (and he did turn in a couple of decent performances - those two goals vs Arsenal, and then the Stephen Ireland game at Chelsea) despite probably being too slow for it.
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The Evening Mail have stuck their oar in.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-comment-would-ciaran-11700493?
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Think he's improved a lot over the last few years. Not just that but he is a threat from set pieces which is always a plus. I would have kept him as Lescott I think is past it, and Baker is just poor. The way it stands he will need to sign another centre back and I don't think some youth prospect from Man Utd is the answer.
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I think he could prove to be a good signing at this level, a definite step up from Baker in my opinion
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Farewell Ciaran Clark.
47% of Villa supporters could never spell your name correctly.
Is it Cieran?
Is it Clarke?
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Ludicrous trolling from the Mail. Saying Newcastle are a "massive club" does not imply that we aren't one.
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The thing that concerns me out of all this is that Clark, Weimann, Bannan, Delfonsono and Gabby way back all showed good potential and none of them have really been able to kick on and become big players for us.
When you see some of the duffers they will have operated under over the past five years, it's a waste.
Not that they have been complete failures, mind. Three of that lot do play international football.
There will always be players who looked the part in youth teams but can't quite make the transition. But all that lot have showed an aptitude for top flight football at various stages. We're not talking about a Dean Spink or Dave Farrell scenario where they were just clearly out of their depth.
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I think we'd have kept him if we'd been able to shift either Lescott or Richards.
I'm not fused either way, he was a big part of a defence that was nothing more than an embarrassment. Thought he'd improved during the previous season but took a massive step backwards last season.
Goodbye & good luck.
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Think he's improved a lot over the last few years. Not just that but he is a threat from set pieces which is always a plus. I would have kept him as Lescott I think is past it, and Baker is just poor. The way it stands he will need to sign another centre back and I don't think some youth prospect from Man Utd is the answer.
He's was a massive threat to us on set pieces.
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The thing that concerns me out of all this is that Clark, Weimann, Bannan, Delfonsono and Gabby way back all showed good potential and none of them have really been able to kick on and become big players for us.
When you see some of the duffers they will have operated under over the past five years, it's a waste.
Not that they have been complete failures, mind. Three of that lot do play international football.
There will always be players who looked the part in youth teams but can't quite make the transition. But all that lot have showed an aptitude for top flight football at various stages. We're not talking about a Dean Spink or Dave Farrell scenario where they were just clearly out of their depth.
This is the thing for me. Ever since MON left (and this is by no way me lauding MON!) the coaching has been so bad I couldn't actually name one player beyond Benteke (who probably improved despite the coaching) who actually improved during his time with us.
I always thought Clark would come good for us and I hope he's still got enough time to develop in to the player he always promised.
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Good luck Colin. Looking forward to you sending your back pass into the path of Ross as he walks in to score.
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I think some of the venom I have seen (not really on here) is a bit unnecessary. I suspect he was encouraged to go by RDM once the release clause was triggered, or at least not given any particular assurances about his future here. He's been a decent servant to the club, but never really kicked on.
I hope he does ok, but of course at the same time hope his new club implodes.
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Never quite worked out for him here, think he suffered from crap coaching and being in a crappy side for so long as the kid that broke through under GH looked like he could go all the way to the top. Good luck to him, was one of the few last season to actually give a fcuk.
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Nice lad but never progressed like we had all hoped.
He still produced one of my favourite moments as a Villa fan over the past five years.
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Must admit I loved this tackle of his
(https://media.giphy.com/media/yoJC2ws2BEefN1zP6E/giphy-downsized-large.gif)
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Good luck to him. Agree with PWS, I'll miss his crunching tackles.
I've a sneaking feeling Benitez will eventually use him as a defensive midfielder rather than a centre back. For me, it's always been his best position. As centre halves go, I don't think I've ever been that comfortable seeing his name on the team sheet.
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I hope they do use him as a defensive mid, he can't pass, he's not strong and he's slow. Anything to fuck them up is fine by me.
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I knew plenty of players would be off this summer but I didn't think he'd be one of them.
He divides opinion, I felt he was one of those who would improve with a better player alongside him. Unfortunately we never had a player like that in the side so he was exposed to be the mediocre player that he is.
I wish him well, they will slaughter him up there.
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I wish him well, they will slaughter him up there.
We're talking about a club that thought Titus Bramble was a footballer. He'll survive.
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Always liked him and disappointed to see him go. He's been here since he was 12 so the amount of "he's shit, good riddance" comments are in poor taste.
He seemed to care a lot more than most of them. He's probably gone a bit stale and Benitez isn't a bad judge of a player. Farewell Clacker.
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I wish him well, they will slaughter him up there.
We're talking about a club that thought Titus Bramble was a footballer. He'll survive.
Not only that, they played him for years.
See also the proto-Clark, Steven Taylor.
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Clark is really our Steven Taylor. Well, he was.
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I would play Gestede against him in our games with them. He is very easily bullied and tries to make up for it with hard man tackles. Fooling no one. Too pretty to be an effective centre half.
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I always stood up for Clarke in the pub and nearly always mentioned that Ferguson rated him and tried to sign him, many was the time I'd come back from the bar and my mates were still reeling off the names of all the shit players that SAF had signed.
Farewell Clacker.
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Surprised a few prem clubs didn't come in for him at 5m. The boggies were regularly linked with him last year. 5m is peanuts in the current market
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He would put in a crunch tackle and then misjudge the simplest of balls. Not the complete footballer and as an individual sorry but not fussed.
However, I am concerned about the likes of him and Gana jumping ship just before the season on the back of what I can only describe as poor contract terms for the Villa.
To me I can't understand the validity of a contract if players simply hold each and every string.
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A dedicated footballer and with us since childhood - good luck.
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Suppose it's a two way street, when we go down we tell them they have to take a drop in wages but we have to accept offers. No great loss.
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I would play Gestede against him in our games with them. He is very easily bullied and tries to make up for it with hard man tackles. Fooling no one. Too pretty to be an effective centre half.
agree with him being bullied but bloody hell at no point last season did gestede bully anyone
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He didn't get close enough to the ball to bully anyone. Awful unless the ball was crossed from the final third, then he was as good as I've seen in the past few years.
Gestede that is.
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A thank you from Clackers:-
I would like to place on record my thanks to everyone who supported me during my 15 years @AVFCOfficial Special mention to Gordan Cowans,Tony McAndrew and Kevin McDonald who played a huge part in my development from youth team to first team. Last season obviously hurt everyone
i will be forever grateful for my time at the club, and i wish everyone @AVFCOfficial the best of luck for the future.
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I don't know why he has opted to leave but considering he's been at the club since he was a kid, represented us at all levels and was our only representative at Euro 2016 he should leave with our best wishes and get a warm reception on his return. He was thrown in as a teenager during a terrible era, was brave and never ducked a tackle, good luck Colin Clarke.
That's how I feel about him as well. I hope he flourishes there, apart from when he plays us, of course!
Good luck, Ciaran.
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New start for him, good luck. Never faulted his attitude. I think most Villa fans would wish him good fortune, as long as we stuff 4 past them home and away.
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I can see both sides of the Ciaran Clark argument about his usefulness, and I have expressed doubts about left footed DCM's who might replace him. Baker is in the frame at the moment.
What is clear though, is that RDM seemed to want the player to stay, and it was a release clause which enabled his departure.
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I've always thought Clark was very similar to Steven Taylor. The good and bad points to be honest (though Clakkers is marginally better). I'm astounded that it took the Toon so long to get rid of Taylor, only to buy a player like Clark...for a pretty hefty fee in all honesty. I think we've done well out of this, and I say this as someone who felt Clark still had something to offer here. Will he ever fulfil his potential? I'm not so sure. I think in 2 years he'll be back in the championship as Newcastle will probably be in the Prem and probably inevitably replace him.
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Would have preferred the likes of Lescott ,Richards and Baker to have departed before Clark but just like Gana not to disappointed he has jumped ship .I never liked how he was bullied by the opposition and of course was always prone to a massive cock up
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There are quite a few players at Villa who whilst not being terrible, would benefit both us and them by moving on. The stench of failure is overwhelming and I'm sure we will see a few more out soon.
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There are quite a few players at Villa who whilst not being terrible, would benefit both us and them by moving on. The stench of failure is overwhelming and I'm sure we will see a few more out soon.
We're in this position where we could do with cashing in on some players. That we've raked in 12 million for two average players this week, given how poor our entire side was last season is good going. Lets face it, selling the likes of Gabby, Lescott etc is going to be nigh on impossible.
I actually think Baker will fare better (when fit...yep...I know...) than Clark in the Championship. He's better in the air and stronger and he's just had a full season in the 2nd tier too.
Clark always tried though and didn't have the piss poor attitude of many here, so I wish him well on that front. But he'll go to Newcastle and make mistakes for them now.
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I'd be tempted to sell Baker whilst he has a decent value.
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He would put in a crunch tackle and then misjudge the simplest of balls. Not the complete footballer and as an individual sorry but not fussed.
However, I am concerned about the likes of him and Gana jumping ship just before the season on the back of what I can only describe as poor contract terms for the Villa.
To me I can't understand the validity of a contract if players simply hold each and every string.
They don't. If the club weren't happy with the terms in the contract, he wouldn't have been offered the contract.
His wages drop, so he's allowed to move to a new club willing to pay him more, as long as they pay us a fee that we are happy with.
If no club thinks he's worth what we're happy to sell him for, he carries on with his reduced wages.
Seems more fair than pretty much anything else in football.
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I'd be tempted to sell Baker whilst he has a decent value.
this
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Always wanted him to improve but what is he now 26? Thought he might be better in a defensive midfield role, but he's not been clever enough to read a game and anticipate what is happening (hence the lapses of concentration). No hard feelings, I wish Clark well but I am not too bothered about him leaving.
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I think he did form a good partnership with Okore - but he seems to be out of favour as well.
I'm just worried about his fish. He gets his Koi for his garden pond from the same supplier as we do. Hope he doesn't rent his house to one of our new players who does not how to look after them.
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I think he did form a good partnership with Okore - but he seems to be out of favour as well.
I'm just worried about his fish. He gets his Koi for his garden pond from the same supplier as we do. Hope he doesn't rent his house to one of our new players who does not how to look after them.
Maybe he'll give the Koi to you and you can then say to him; "so long, and thanks for all the fish" :D
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A Clark special against Leicester (https://vine.co/v/OPVmYiJ7WW3)
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I think he did form a good partnership with Okore - but he seems to be out of favour as well.
I'm just worried about his fish. He gets his Koi for his garden pond from the same supplier as we do. Hope he doesn't rent his house to one of our new players who does not how to look after them.
Maybe the fish are what swung the deal?
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I think he did form a good partnership with Okore - but he seems to be out of favour as well.
I'm just worried about his fish. He gets his Koi for his garden pond from the same supplier as we do. Hope he doesn't rent his house to one of our new players who does not how to look after them.
Maybe he'll give the Koi to you and you can then say to him; "so long, and thanks for all the fish" :D
please stop carping on Redsox...
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I'd say the fish are very happy now they are moving to a bigger pond going in the right direction.
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The fish will be happy knowing that they will be following the illustrious Steve Guppy up there.
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Never a fan and will be much happier to see him and his clangers in Newcastle's defence than ours this season.
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I'd say the fish are very happy now they are moving to a bigger pond going in the right direction.
Might be a bigger pond - but the water is a lot colder up there, and Koi are a bit fussy. There have been plenty of fancy fish imported to the frozen north east - a few have made waves - but most have floundered.
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good luck to him. A good soild defender who will do a job for Newcastle. Wasn't the reason our defence was pish last season and i expect him to improve again now he's away from some of his former teammates
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Seems to be having a good season, and appreciated by their fans going by this Newcastle fansite headline:
http://www.themag.co.uk/2017/04/player-season-ciaran-clark-soon-return-captain-find-place-threat-newcastle-united-newcastle-2-wigan-1/ (http://www.themag.co.uk/2017/04/player-season-ciaran-clark-soon-return-captain-find-place-threat-newcastle-united-newcastle-2-wigan-1/)
Thought he was mismanaged by the Villa / Sherwood personally. Okore and himself were forming an alright partnership ... then we went and bought Lescot and Richards.
Ah well, good luck to him.
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I liked Ciaran Clark but, ultimately, thought he was rubbish. His individual errors lead to us conceding more goals than any other centre-back that I can remember in my lifetime. He had no composure, couldn't mark at corners and the more he bulked-up the slower on the turn he became. I also thought he was rubbish for Ireland in the Euros last summer. He may be doing ok for Newcastle now, but certainly no better than Baker's done for us (when fit) and he's definitely not as good as Chester. I'm sure he'll struggle again as-and-when he returns to the top flight.
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I liked Ciaran Clark but, ultimately, thought he was rubbish. His individual errors lead to us conceding more goals than any other centre-back that I can remember in my lifetime. He had no composure, couldn't mark at corners and the more he bulked-up the slower on the turn he became. I also thought he was rubbish for Ireland in the Euros last summer. He may be doing ok for Newcastle now, but certainly no better than Baker's done for us (when fit) and he's definitely not as good as Chester. I'm sure he'll struggle again as-and-when he returns to the top flight.
Ditto.
Rafa the Gaffa probably thought he had torpedoed our boat by signing our ex captain and a player (who he believed) to be important to us.
But we can torpedo our own boat, thanks very much. Of all the catastrafucks that have occurred this season, letting Clark go doesn't feature very highly for me. One of our better bits of business in recent seasons.
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I couldn't believe when we got £5m for him, he makes too many costly mistakes
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Play him against Kodj and a n effective service and he'll see the real Clark. Anyway, I bear him no ill will. Just an ex-player.
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Better than Elphick, less injury-prone than Baker. Would have liked to see how he'd have got on with Chester but he probably needed away from Villa Park to revitalise his career like his contemporaries in the class of '09, Albrighton, Bannan and er, Fonz who all went on to play well consistently again.
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Better than Elphick, less injury-prone than Baker. Would have liked to see how he'd have got on with Chester but he probably needed away from Villa Park to revitalise his career like his contemporaries in the class of '09, Albrighton, Bannan and er, Fonz who all went on to play well consistently again.
Are you serious about Delfonso?
Nah, you can't be
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Used to terrify me seeing him trying to play the ball out. I got flashbacks of that Cruyff turn against Citeh every time.
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I couldn't believe when we got £5m for him, he makes too many costly mistakes
the question is: how many goals conceded by the Barcodes can be attributed to him this season?
I think he was a player that got ground down by the poisonous culture that has dragged Villa down over the last 7 years.
£5m was a decent price for him but we spent £3m on Elphick who is as useful as a chocolate teapot, and we'll still probably have to bring in another CB over the summer.
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Better than Elphick, less injury-prone than Baker. Would have liked to see how he'd have got on with Chester but he probably needed away from Villa Park to revitalise his career like his contemporaries in the class of '09, Albrighton, Bannan and er, Fonz who all went on to play well consistently again.
Are you serious about Delfonso?
Nah, you can't be
The brightest stars often burn out first.
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Better than Elphick, less injury-prone than Baker. Would have liked to see how he'd have got on with Chester but he probably needed away from Villa Park to revitalise his career like his contemporaries in the class of '09, Albrighton, Bannan and er, Fonz who all went on to play well consistently again.
Are you serious about Delfonso?
Nah, you can't be
The brightest stars often burn out first.
I knew you weren't
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the question is: how many goals conceded by the Barcodes can be attributed to him this season?
I think he was a player that got ground down by the poisonous culture that has dragged Villa down over the last 7 years.
£5m was a decent price for him but we spent £3m on Elphick who is as useful as a chocolate teapot, and we'll still probably have to bring in another CB over the summer.
Clark was arguably Newcastle's best centreback. Seemed calm, committed, controlled and has settled really quickly. I can think of only one goal that was attributed to his mistake. He cartainly was at fault less often than Lascelles and Dummett.
Dunno if he'll be good enough for the top flight, but have more faith in him than in, say, Hanley or Lascelles. Fortunately it looks like we're selling Hanley to fund further strengthening of our back line.
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Sometimes taking someone out of their comfort zone is how you make them grow up...will be interesting to see if back in the top flight he finally fulfills his potential or whether he reverts back to Mr85 again where he looked good for 85 mins of the game but somewhere he always had a mad 5 where he was a calamity waiting to happen.
Sure the huge salary he got up there when his release clause was met assisted the transfer in the first place
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He was never really good enough for the prem although Benitez might improve him like he's done with many others in the past.
I just don't think for a CB he has one great attribute, he's not got great recovery pace, he loses strikers too easily in the box, he's not aerially dominant on crosses and he can get bullied by physical strikers (remember the trouble Anichebe gave him).
It's easy to look good for Newcastle in the championship but think he'll be found out again in the prem unless Newcastle play a defensive system.
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Sometimes taking someone out of their comfort zone is how you make them grow up...will be interesting to see if back in the top flight he finally fulfills his potential or whether he reverts back to Mr85 again where he looked good for 85 mins of the game but somewhere he always had a mad 5 where he was a calamity waiting to happen.
Sure the huge salary he got up there when his release clause was met assisted the transfer in the first place
What is it?
I've seen nothing reliable on how much he's getting paid, but I'd presume that it wouldn't need to be ludicrous to tempt him away after his weekly wage was slashed in half due to the included relegation clause.
fwiw I think he was quality in the 2nd tier, and will likely be our 1st choice CB this season, but I'd hope to replace him pretty quick.
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I couldn't believe when we got £5m for him, he makes too many costly mistakes
the question is: how many goals conceded by the Barcodes can be attributed to him this season?
I think he was a player that got ground down by the poisonous culture that has dragged Villa down over the last 7 years.
£5m was a decent price for him but we spent £3m on Elphick who is as useful as a chocolate teapot, and we'll still probably have to bring in another CB over the summer.
Exactly, Clark made a mockery of the decision to replace him, as did James Collins a few seasons before. Both needed a move away from Villa Park arguably. Anyway Elphick and Baker are far inferior players to Clark and we will be looking for two new central defenders again this summer.
Clark was probably signed as cover but ended up being Newcastle's best defender, fair play to him. Will be interesting to see how he goes next season but I'd expect Benitez to set up deep next season and hit teams on the break which will suit Clark.
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Sometimes taking someone out of their comfort zone is how you make them grow up...will be interesting to see if back in the top flight he finally fulfills his potential or whether he reverts back to Mr85 again where he looked good for 85 mins of the game but somewhere he always had a mad 5 where he was a calamity waiting to happen.
Sure the huge salary he got up there when his release clause was met assisted the transfer in the first place
What is it?
I've seen nothing reliable on how much he's getting paid, but I'd presume that it wouldn't need to be ludicrous to tempt him away after his weekly wage was slashed in half due to the included relegation clause.
fwiw I think he was quality in the 2nd tier, and will likely be our 1st choice CB this season, but I'd hope to replace him pretty quick.
The talk when he moved was that he went from circa 20k a week to 40-50k a week...whether that's accurate none of us know but the speed it was done suggests an agent not wanting club to change their minds :-)
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I couldn't believe when we got £5m for him, he makes too many costly mistakes
the question is: how many goals conceded by the Barcodes can be attributed to him this season?
I think he was a player that got ground down by the poisonous culture that has dragged Villa down over the last 7 years.
£5m was a decent price for him but we spent £3m on Elphick who is as useful as a chocolate teapot, and we'll still probably have to bring in another CB over the summer.
We had signed Elphick before Clark left; from memory, the intention was to play Elphick and Clark together. But the first chance Clark had to leave the club, he bailed. C'est la vie. He had potential at 18/19, but despite prolonged stints in the side, didn't look like he'd ever fulfill it. He was 26 when he left, how long do you wait? I don't know too many Villa fans who were distraught at seeing him go. Chester wasn't business we had planned to do, but he's a vast upgrade on the error riddled Clark.
Chester looked reasonable for Hull and Olbiyun in the top flight (although he's more the sort that has had a good game if you don't notice him -if that makes sense). And has looked fine at international level. So if we ever do make it back to the big league, that is one player at least we don't instantly need to replace.
Clark has often looked ropey for Ireland and rarely convinced with us in the top flight, so if he was still on the books and we made it back next year, he'd most likely be on borrowed time anyroad.
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He had a great season for the barcodes, but this is where they'll find out that he's really not very good.
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you can colour this anyway you like - Clark is shit.
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Wish we had 11 "shit" players like Newcastle had to piss this league
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agreed they had plenty of players who weren't shit - Clark isn't one of them.
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Every time I saw Clark for the Barcodes last season, he looked the same hapless figure that he (more often than not) did for us. I remember him giving away at least 2 penalties and scoring one own-goal for them. I would be very surprised if he was a regular starter in a Benitez back 4 in the Prem next season.
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I'd take the judgement of their fans who saw him every week other than us willing to see him do shit the odd time we might have seen some of Newcastle's games. He'd be our second best defender if we still had him.
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Yes, Clark and Chester would have been a good combination, despite a lack of pace.
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The more you think about it, James Chester was such an important signing for us last season. Clark/Baker/Elphick all capable of the massive mistake. Chester is the one of the three I would take with us to the Premiership.
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Yes, Clark and Chester would have been a good combination, despite a lack of pace.
I wouldn't have Chester down as a slouch. He is McGrath esque (stay with me) in the sense that he always seems to have just enough pace to mop up the danger. He isn't always on his heels so doesn't need to be a sprint champion. Whereas both Clark and Baker are iffy against nippy forwards and are no strangers to misjudging the flight of the ball. Chronic lack of pace adds to the package.
Clark started gubbing it with the ball at his feet too, which is a shame. As one of the things that stood out when he first broke through was how comfortable he was in possession.
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Yes, Clark and Chester would have been a good combination, despite a lack of pace.
I wouldn't have Chester down as a slouch. He is McGrath esque (stay with me) in the sense that he always seems to have just enough pace to mop up the danger. He isn't always on his heels so doesn't need to be a sprint champion. Whereas both Clark and Baker are iffy against nippy forwards and are no strangers to misjudging the flight of the ball. Chronic lack of pace adds to the package.
Clark started gubbing it with the ball at his feet too, which is a shame. As one of the things that stood out when he first broke through was how comfortable he was in possession.
Even more so when he was originally a midfield player with the youth team. I would bet he will come good. Rafa's summer signings will prove what he thinks one way or the other.
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I'm sure I've mentioned before (I meant to, if I haven't) that I don't recall many players who have looked as calm, controlled and comfortable as Clark as he misplaced a ten yard pass.
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Clark v Baker - not much in it - except Baker is our player and Clark is not - so I am totally focused on NB and forgotten that Clark was a player in claret and blue who was distinctly average.
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Clark v Baker - not much in it - except Baker is our player and Clark is not - so I am totally focused on NB and forgotten that Clark was a player in claret and blue who was distinctly average.
Agree, isn't it a shame they both looked great in our youth team and I honestly thought they'd go on to form our centre half partnership for ten years just like a Pallister & Bruce combo with one of them ultimately ending up as club captain.
Maybe it's me wishing they were that good or maybe just maybe our coaching really has been that shocking that
We continually turn wine into water ?
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Clark v Baker - not much in it - except Baker is our player and Clark is not - so I am totally focused on NB and forgotten that Clark was a player in claret and blue who was distinctly average.
Agree, isn't it a shame they both looked great in our youth team and I honestly thought they'd go on to form our centre half partnership for ten years just like a Pallister & Bruce combo with one of them ultimately ending up as club captain.
Maybe it's me wishing they were that good or maybe just maybe our coaching really has been that shocking that
We continually turn wine into water ?
Or maybe they just peak early like a lot of promising players at an early age. That's not just the case at our place it's at every club. For every Dele Alee there's 10 Danny Cadarmateris .
Clark's not been great for us in his time but he's better than Baker.
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I like Baker but my best description of him would be summed up in the phrase 'Bull In A China Shop'.
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Yes, Clark and Chester would have been a good combination, despite a lack of pace.
Not sure on that one, Chester is better alongside aerially dominant CBs (Baker and Jedinak) and I thought that was yet another average part of Clarks game. Remember when Victor Flipping Anchiebe totally bullied him when he played for Everton.
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Clark v Baker - not much in it - except Baker is our player and Clark is not - so I am totally focused on NB and forgotten that Clark was a player in claret and blue who was distinctly average.
Agree, isn't it a shame they both looked great in our youth team and I honestly thought they'd go on to form our centre half partnership for ten years just like a Pallister & Bruce combo with one of them ultimately ending up as club captain.
Maybe it's me wishing they were that good or maybe just maybe our coaching really has been that shocking that
We continually turn wine into water ?
Or maybe they just peak early like a lot of promising players at an early age. That's not just the case at our place it's at every club. For every Dele Alee there's 10 Danny Cadarmateris .
Clark's not been great for us in his time but he's better than Baker.
Don't know where to start.
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Clark v Baker - not much in it - except Baker is our player and Clark is not - so I am totally focused on NB and forgotten that Clark was a player in claret and blue who was distinctly average.
Agree, isn't it a shame they both looked great in our youth team and I honestly thought they'd go on to form our centre half partnership for ten years just like a Pallister & Bruce combo with one of them ultimately ending up as club captain.
Maybe it's me wishing they were that good or maybe just maybe our coaching really has been that shocking that
We continually turn wine into water ?
Or maybe they just peak early like a lot of promising players at an early age. That's not just the case at our place it's at every club. For every Dele Alee there's 10 Danny Cadarmateris .
Clark's not been great for us in his time but he's better than Baker.
Don't know where to start.
At the beginning is a good place.
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Clark always had more potential because baker is so limited technically
Baker did ok last year but isn't good enough if we want to get promoted. Chester is by far the best but he's not at all infallible. He makes quite a few sloppy mistakes but most of the time we don't get punished - maybe he'd cut them out in the top flight
Chester does appear to be a better passer than half our midfield though which is embarrassing. Yes I'm looking at you Mile,Leandro, Bjarnason, and Gardner