The future of Houllier and McAllister?

[Clampy]

Moyes did extremely well to screw as much as he did out of Man City for Lescott. It was ridiculous money.

The fact that Everton take an age to get going every season is one thing that's putting me off him slightly.

[Eigentor]

Having listened to the Guardian podcast, the thing that pissed me off about Benitez is his claims of wanting to go to a club not to win trophies but to build something.

I haven't heard the podcast, but did he say that he wanted to build something as opposed to winning trophies. His record of winning things is the main reason why I'm starting to side with the Benitez fraction; his record of building something is only so-so. I think one of his main strengths is his ability to come up with a specific game plan to win a specific (cup) match. This leads me to believe that three seasons of Benitez is more likely to bring a trophy than three seasons of Moyes.

As an aside, I know there are some similarities between Houllier and Benitez (both foreigners; both previous Liverpool managers; both have a mixed transfer record), but as managers they are quite different. I remember, Mr. Kelly, last August you had Houllier down as a French version of MON. (winky thing)

[KevinGage]

I don't think anyone is seriously making the argument that Rafa's previous trophy haul is insufficient for a club like Villa.

It's more a case that such factors are not the only consideration. Otherwise, you're effectively advocating a painting by numbers approach to selecting a manager. Giovanni Trapattoni probably trumps all of the names listed a few times over for total honours won. I'm not sure I'd want him either.

To judge it purely on past honours ignores the unique circumstances that led to that success. Yes, of course the manager will have played a crucial part in that. But quality of squad at the time, quality of competition and the luck of the draw in cup competitions all play a part too.

Like Mark, I'm not overly enamoured with the idea of another manager thinking he can come here in cruise control either, that he can have a nice, comfortable gig for a few years outside of the pressure cooker atmosphere associated with some clubs.

Houllier copped (Kopped?) on to the idea late that we're (to quote Ron Burgundy) kind of a big deal. A little too late, unfortunately. The next guy shouldn't make the same mistake.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

As an aside, I know there are some similarities between Houllier and Benitez (both foreigners; both previous Liverpool managers; both have a mixed transfer record), but as managers they are quite different. I remember, Mr. Kelly, last August you had Houllier down as a French version of MON. (winky thing)

I said no such thing. Still, if you want to do a Chris Smith and rewrite history, help yourself. (winky)

I do remember somebody that had the same user-name as you saying Morten Gamst Pedersen and Ricardo Carvalho would never make it in the Premier League. No wonder you disappeared for so many years! (snigger)

As for Benitez, I've mixed feelings. His defensive football, his obsession to buy and sell so many players in every transfer window but most of all, why he wants the job. As for him being similar to Houllier, this is worth a read from their time at Liverpool:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/05/adios-senor-bonjour-monsieur/

[Eigentor]

Good old Mark. Still beating me with the same old stick.

I agree with some of your reservations, though (that he'd view us as a step down or a harmless opportunity to try out his new whim about building something), but I don't think his football was particularly defensive. The season Liverpool came second, they were arguably the most entertaining team in the country. My biggest fear is that he would start causing trouble (he fell out with his superiors both at Valencia, Liverpool and Inter).

To judge it purely on past honours ignores the unique circumstances that led to that success.

I'm not sure if this was aimed at me, but I don't think anyone wants to select a new manager based on one single criteria.

[hawkeye]

[quote author
http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/05/adios-senor-bonjour-monsieur/
[/quote]A very informative article, they both bought crap, it appears that Benitez bought less crap

[Mister E]

this is worth a read from their time at Liverpool:

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/05/adios-senor-bonjour-monsieur/

Excellent read - tries to harmonise the comparisons well and is a balanced argument. Thanks, Mark.

[Dante Lavelli]

indeed a good read.  I wonder what JPA would cost based on the transfer inflation thingy used?

[Percy McCarthy]

Having listened to the Guardian podcast, the thing that pissed me off about Benitez is his claims of wanting to go to a club not to win trophies but to build something. This reminds me of GH when he first arrived at Villa Park, I got the impression he was far too comfortable and he felt time was on his side. It took two serious kickings from the fans (Liverpool away and the calling for his head) before he finally realised exactly who are Aston Villa.

Whoever comes in this summer has to realise that we desperately want and expect to be up there at the top end of the table, results do matter and at the same time a solid plan for the future has to be put in place. It's not one or the other. Expectations at the club, whether rightly or not, are higher than those on the outside imagine. We've had more than our share of dull football so we need a manager that understands 21st century football. We also need a man that will get the very best from his squad and who the players will give everything for, week in, week out.

If Benitez thinks he needs a nice, comfortable, well paid job where expectations are not too high, he should look elsewhere. We've had enough of managers thinking they're bigger than the club and that we should be grateful to have them. We need somebody who's hungry and looking to prove themselves, creating a team and environment where players want stay whilst others want to join us and Randy needs to increase the ground capacity.

Well said Mark.

[Shrek]

Its difficult to see that Moyes would offer us anything that MON didnt.

Benitez or hughes for me.

He did it with tiny amount of cash that MON had & nothing to choose between them over the seasons Martin was here.

As I've said before about this theory that Moyes had little money to spend (or tiny amount of cash) -



That's a fair whack of cash there. (Just over £65m on 6 players to be exact).

Big difference, Moyes actually finished 4th, he was just very unlucky in the team they got in the qualifiers.

And I think net spend should be considered there because he recouped around £55 million from just 2 players(Rooney, Lescott)

MON sold Cahill for fuck all and bought Zat Knight, says it all really.

MoN sold Cahill for £5m didn't he?

I can see your point about the "net", but he got lucky with having Rooney coming through. Lescott though he sold on for a good profit.

Thinking about it though, he never got lucky with Rooney, it just so happened he went for 30 million, which Moyes spent on players. If he hadn't have had Rooney he would have had 30 million less to spend.

Does anybody know what Moyes net spend is compared to MON?

I really like Moyes and he is my number 1 choice.

[Greg N'Ash]

that list contains transfers from 2004 anyway.  he's bound to have spent a fair bit in 8 years.. to a get sensible comparison with MON you'd have to include all DOL's transfers as well. Also notice that on two of his big deals he got a decent wedge back in one case and made a profit on the other!

[WA Villan]

Benitez would stroll in VP believing he was doing us a favour. Any potential manager who exudes this feeling amongst the fans should be left alone.
We need a young up and coming manager with a bit of mongrel in him, who lives and breaths for Villa.
 We tend to warm to managers like this, it's a gamble, but one I think is worth taking. I think as a club we need to find our own way and march to our own tune.

[Concrete John]

My issue with the idea 'young up and coming manager' is their ability to attract and sign the top players.  I may have been critical of him, but Houllier well known name in the game and that would have helped us sign Bent.  Would he have signed for someone like Paul Lambert or similar, especially given our league position at the time?

Moyes, however, is a good balance between the two. 

[Ger Regan]

Its difficult to see that Moyes would offer us anything that MON didnt.

Benitez or hughes for me.

What could hughes offer that's different then? I'm not advocating Moyes by the way, I'm equally uncertain about both.

[Eigentor]

Among the likeliest candidates/those we're most heavily linked with (Moyes, Hughes and Benitez), I'd prefer the Spaniard. But ideally, I would like us to gamble on an up-and-coming manager, someone like Villas-Boas, Flores or Thomas Tuchel. When it comes to building something (setting up a scouting network, develop the youth programme), it would perhaps be better to have someone with more experience. But I think these tasks should be left to someone who doesn't have to leave his job if the team loses three games on the trot.