Summer transfer rumours, speculation and out-and-out b*ll*cks.

[Dante Lavelli]

KG, I won't answer individual points because that would take hundreds of years. Only a few points.

Firstly, the idea that Barcelona aren't a physical side (and that saying we should take their playing style as a role model is to denounce physicality) is bollocks. Have you seen them out of possession? They're the most tenacious, grafty, stamina-driven bunch around. Add to which, yes, they have players like Pique and Puyol, so physicality (and height, in Pique's case) is important at the back. But I can't put it better than Xavi, who said that the Puyol types "have to adapt to the passing system, and not the other way around". Very important.

Will keep this brief, as it's way off the grid at this stage.  Yes, Barcelona do have a work ethic to go with their undoubted quality. The best sides generally do. They're about as far removed from a physical side as you can get though.

The idea that you can apply the same footballing principles to Bareclona 2011 and Aston Villa 2011 is absolutely barking. You might as well suggest that we use Brazil 1970 as a template. You're determined to do it though, so kudos to you I guess.  Yes, ultimately we both have 11 players, we both play sides with 11 players -on a rectangular shaped pitch-  and we play with a round ball. That's where the worthwhile comparisons begin and end. The conditions both sides face in their domestic leagues, the infrastructure of both clubs and the culture/ style of play that is expected (and that young players coming through the ranks are indoctrinated in) is so markedly different so as to render any comparison redundant.

Here's the myth: height matters in midfield. Does it? Does it fuck. The man after whom the modern holding role was named, and who is often brought up as the kind of player many on here would like to see at VP, was Claude Makalele - 5'8'' at the most. Our central midfield is lacking energy, stamina and a certain feistiness (as mentioned above with Barca) since Milner left - 5'9'' James Milner. Inversely, Michael Carrick may be 6'1'' but you'd hardly call him a physical dynamo. Very few if any games are ever won on height in midfield. Skill and other physical attributes like pace and stamina, even strength (which is actually unrelated to height), are infinitely more important.

You're right on the energy and stamina part.  They are the key ingredients. Alongside talent of course. Would anyone seriously prefer 6ft+ Isiah Osbourne over 5ft 9 James Milner? No, thought not.  Ideally though, in a league such as the top flight in England, a midfield powerhouse with height is be preferable, which why is like players like Essien, Yaya Toure and co come at a premium, and why clubs with finance generally make that type of player a key focus of any transfer business. Even a side as gifted as Arsenal have the likes of Song, Diaby and Eboue fulfilling that role.

Secondly, I will answer one of your points, KG - that we should have made ourselves even better at counter-attacking, and that would have sufficed to improve us. I'm sorry, but that's just entirely missed all the problems we had at home last year, all the problems we had when the opposition scored first, all the problems with our style of football. Like you say, away from home, you could hear the home fans groaning whenever Barry or Petrov set Ash or Gabby away on the counter. Counter-attacking was never the problem. However, though all teams need to counter-attack well (apart from Barcelona, and this would be one area where you can't ape them), ALL successful teams can break sides down at home who've come to defend with passing football. We almost never could. The example of Arsenal's great side is nonsensical and erroneous because, while of course they counter-attacked brilliantly, they also broke teams down at home. To do that, you have to play possession football these days.

It's perhaps no more nonsensical and erroneous than suggesting we use Barcelona as a template.

We already were a counter attacking side, albeit a low rent version of Arsenal at their best. That was our strength. It might have been at times predictable, but most sides knew about us as far back as 2007, yet they couldn't stop us scoring using that system for the next two/three years.  The other string we had to our bow was set pieces, and the general mayhem Laursen caused in the opposition box. Even if he wasn't scoring, he was invariably involved. As we found, once we had scored first, sides who had set themselves up to contain us had to go for it -leaving more gaps to exploit and opening the game up.

The issue was getting that first goal -particularly at home-  and that's where greater efficiency in delivery (from set pieces and open play) taking chances and being defensively sound at the back comes into it.  In time, even better players and players comfortable in possession might have ticked the boxes for the football purists too, but it's far better to arrive at that stage naturally rather than enforce a style of play (a) not suited to the players or (b) not suited to the league and opponents you face or (c) both.

Man Citeh away in the cup was a watershed moment in so many ways. There was a stage in that match (after they were 2-0) where we played nice, intricate passing football. Lovely triangles and all the rest of it. Yet completely impotent. I don't think we created one worthwhile chance. As soon as Citeh wanted to, they just waded in and bullied us out of it. In that horrible moment, we had morphed into Tony Mowbray's WBA. That is not an avenue I want to pursue, it won't be enough for us to go down yet claim some moral victory. We're better than that.
[/

KG, I won't answer individual points because that would take hundreds of years. Only a few points.

Firstly, the idea that Barcelona aren't a physical side (and that saying we should take their playing style as a role model is to denounce physicality) is bollocks. Have you seen them out of possession? They're the most tenacious, grafty, stamina-driven bunch around. Add to which, yes, they have players like Pique and Puyol, so physicality (and height, in Pique's case) is important at the back. But I can't put it better than Xavi, who said that the Puyol types "have to adapt to the passing system, and not the other way around". Very important.

Will keep this brief, as it's way off the grid at this stage.  Yes, Barcelona do have a work ethic to go with their undoubted quality. The best sides generally do. They're about as far removed from a physical side as you can get though.

The idea that you can apply the same footballing principles to Bareclona 2011 and Aston Villa 2011 is absolutely barking. You might as well suggest that we use Brazil 1970 as a template. You're determined to do it though, so kudos to you I guess.  Yes, ultimately we both have 11 players, we both play sides with 11 players -on a rectangular shaped pitch-  and we play with a round ball. That's where the worthwhile comparisons begin and end. The conditions both sides face in their domestic leagues, the infrastructure of both clubs and the culture/ style of play that is expected (and that young players coming through the ranks are indoctrinated in) is so markedly different so as to render any comparison redundant.

Here's the myth: height matters in midfield. Does it? Does it fuck. The man after whom the modern holding role was named, and who is often brought up as the kind of player many on here would like to see at VP, was Claude Makalele - 5'8'' at the most. Our central midfield is lacking energy, stamina and a certain feistiness (as mentioned above with Barca) since Milner left - 5'9'' James Milner. Inversely, Michael Carrick may be 6'1'' but you'd hardly call him a physical dynamo. Very few if any games are ever won on height in midfield. Skill and other physical attributes like pace and stamina, even strength (which is actually unrelated to height), are infinitely more important.

You're right on the energy and stamina part.  They are the key ingredients. Alongside talent of course. Would anyone seriously prefer 6ft+ Isiah Osbourne over 5ft 9 James Milner? No, thought not.  Ideally though, in a league such as the top flight in England, a midfield powerhouse with height is be preferable, which why is like players like Essien, Yaya Toure and co come at a premium, and why clubs with finance generally make that type of player a key focus of any transfer business. Even a side as gifted as Arsenal have the likes of Song, Diaby and Eboue fulfilling that role.

Secondly, I will answer one of your points, KG - that we should have made ourselves even better at counter-attacking, and that would have sufficed to improve us. I'm sorry, but that's just entirely missed all the problems we had at home last year, all the problems we had when the opposition scored first, all the problems with our style of football. Like you say, away from home, you could hear the home fans groaning whenever Barry or Petrov set Ash or Gabby away on the counter. Counter-attacking was never the problem. However, though all teams need to counter-attack well (apart from Barcelona, and this would be one area where you can't ape them), ALL successful teams can break sides down at home who've come to defend with passing football. We almost never could. The example of Arsenal's great side is nonsensical and erroneous because, while of course they counter-attacked brilliantly, they also broke teams down at home. To do that, you have to play possession football these days.

It's perhaps no more nonsensical and erroneous than suggesting we use Barcelona as a template.

We already were a counter attacking side, albeit a low rent version of Arsenal at their best. That was our strength. It might have been at times predictable, but most sides knew about us as far back as 2007, yet they couldn't stop us scoring using that system for the next two/three years.  The other string we had to our bow was set pieces, and the general mayhem Laursen caused in the opposition box. Even if he wasn't scoring, he was invariably involved. As we found, once we had scored first, sides who had set themselves up to contain us had to go for it -leaving more gaps to exploit and opening the game up.

The issue was getting that first goal -particularly at home-  and that's where greater efficiency in delivery (from set pieces and open play) taking chances and being defensively sound at the back comes into it.  In time, even better players and players comfortable in possession might have ticked the boxes for the football purists too, but it's far better to arrive at that stage naturally rather than enforce a style of play (a) not suited to the players or (b) not suited to the league and opponents you face or (c) both.

Man Citeh away in the cup was a watershed moment in so many ways. There was a stage in that match (after they were 2-0) where we played nice, intricate passing football. Lovely triangles and all the rest of it. Yet completely impotent. I don't think we created one worthwhile chance. As soon as Citeh wanted to, they just waded in and bullied us out of it. In that horrible moment, we had morphed into Tony Mowbray's WBA. That is not an avenue I want to pursue, it won't be enough for us to go down yet claim some moral victory. We're better than that.

Wow, that was the "keeping it brief" version?

[peter w]

And cheers for making me scroll through it all again.

[Dante Lavelli]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[peter w]

I love the way the longest post ever starts with,'Will keep this brief' before making everyones eyes bleed.

[villa1]

Blimey.

[Toronto Villa]

Ah...disciples from the Blackwellian School of Debate. I wonder if KG and Monty will enroll in Norweigan Player Science next term, or take the South America course instead?

[KevinGage]

You bunch o' wankers. Brief enough? 

[peter w]

You bunch o' wankers. Brief enough? 

6 to many...

[KevinGage]

and one thing that has oft been overlooked, a team that was hit by an amazing list of casualties. Our reserves were playing as a premiership 1st team for many games and we did suffer for it.

Its not an excuse to see the likes of Clark, Baker, Herd, Lichaj, Bannan, Hogg lining up more often than they should have been whilst losing the spine of the team to said injuries and poor form.

And by oft overlooked you mean dragged out every time we've lost this season, even 3/4 months after the event?

Even In this thread it's been mentioned a fair few times in the past few days.
Well, between Barcelona comparisons, and the like.

[peter w]

and one thing that has oft been overlooked, a team that was hit by an amazing list of casualties. Our reserves were playing as a premiership 1st team for many games and we did suffer for it.

Its not an excuse to see the likes of Clark, Baker, Herd, Lichaj, Bannan, Hogg lining up more often than they should have been whilst losing the spine of the team to said injuries and poor form.

And by oft overlooked you mean dragged out every time we've lost this season, even 3/4 months after the event?

Even In this thread it's been mentioned a fair few times in the past few days.
Well, between Barcelona comparisons, and the like.

I agree it has been mentioned but my point was more to do with the fact that when knocking Houllier that itself has largely been overlooked. Even more so by the media when often questioning why we are where we are. Not all to do with the injuries but it contributed a great deal.

[Karl Bridges]

From Sky Sports

Kim Kallstrom's agent has confirmed that his client is attracting interest, despite being contracted to Lyon.

The Swedish midfielder still has 12 months left to run on his current deal with the Ligue 1 giants.

Speculation is mounting, though, that he could be on the move this summer once the transfer window re-opens.

Premier League outfit Aston Villa are among those believed to have expressed an interest, with Gerard Houllier having taken Kallstrom to Lyon in 2006.

For now the player's representative is reluctant to discuss specific teams, but he does admit that options will be considered once the current campaign comes to a close.

"I don't comment on rumours, but there is an interest in Kim," Roger Ljung told Aftonbladet.

"He has one year left on his contract and it is our intention to fulfil that. But Lyon haven't spoken about a new deal."

Pressed again on the Villa link, Ljung added: "As I said, I don't comment on specific rumours.

"It should be noted that it is not out of the question that he will stay at Lyon. But there are other clubs interested."

[peter w]

I also mentioned Kallstrom on here a few years back but someone came back with him having no pace. IOs that still the case?

[JUAN PABLO]

From Sky Sports

Kim Kallstrom's agent has confirmed that his client is attracting interest, despite being contracted to Lyon.

The Swedish midfielder still has 12 months left to run on his current deal with the Ligue 1 giants.

Speculation is mounting, though, that he could be on the move this summer once the transfer window re-opens.

Premier League outfit Aston Villa are among those believed to have expressed an interest, with Gerard Houllier having taken Kallstrom to Lyon in 2006.

For now the player's representative is reluctant to discuss specific teams, but he does admit that options will be considered once the current campaign comes to a close.

"I don't comment on rumours, but there is an interest in Kim," Roger Ljung told Aftonbladet.

"He has one year left on his contract and it is our intention to fulfil that. But Lyon haven't spoken about a new deal."

Pressed again on the Villa link, Ljung added: "As I said, I don't comment on specific rumours.

"It should be noted that it is not out of the question that he will stay at Lyon. But there are other clubs interested."

Told you  ;-))

[KevinGage]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Couldn't use the quote function properly either. Modern technology, eh? 



Didn't see this mentioned, though it looks like a rehash:
Aston Villa slap 25million valuation on Ashley Young as Manchester United Liverpool and Tottenham prepare bids

[Mazrim]

and one thing that has oft been overlooked, a team that was hit by an amazing list of casualties. Our reserves were playing as a premiership 1st team for many games and we did suffer for it.

Its not an excuse to see the likes of Clark, Baker, Herd, Lichaj, Bannan, Hogg lining up more often than they should have been whilst losing the spine of the team to said injuries and poor form.

And by oft overlooked you mean dragged out every time we've lost this season, even 3/4 months after the event?

Even In this thread it's been mentioned a fair few times in the past few days.
Well, between Barcelona comparisons, and the like.

After what event? Are you saying the injuries stopped being an issue 3 or 4 months ago?