Summer transfer rumours, speculation and out-and-out b*ll*cks.

[eastie]

Scolari did a similar thing at Chelsea and tried to change things too quickly but when senior players went above his head to avramovich it was scolari who bit the dust.

[Mazrim]

I suppose injuries where half our squad were unavailable dictated evolution. The squad not being at all prepared or fit for purpose dictated evolution.
Most importantly, that shithouse leaving us high and dry with the season right upon us, taking his entire staff with him in an outrageous display of petulance, showing no sign of respect or loyalty to his employers and the fans that loved him (there were some) dictated revolution.

So I'd argue that we were in such a bad state that the whole thing needed to be ripped up and started again and whilst Houllier has been naive and clumsy in his methods at times, most of what ails this club began a good while before he arrived. Anybody who watched this team in preseason, not just in how we played but the attitude and demeanour of all concerned, must have been alarmed. I know I was.

I still dont think there is a lot wrong with how were playing under Houllier when hes been able to play a strong side, which has been all too rare.
Sloppy mistakes have cost us and put us in a false position (yes, I know the table doesn't lie).
With more of his own players, a proper preseason of planning, better luck with injuries and some deadwood fucked off I'd be happy to see where it takes us.
Just as I was happy to see where MON was going with his plans.

[Monty]

Just out of interest, who are all these other technically proficient libero's at other clubs then?  Of the clubs around us last year, the likes of Dawson, Bassong, Skirtel, Carragher Agger and co don't leap out at me as cultured defenders. They are stoppers first and foremost.

So expecting something from us that is far superior to the sides we were competing with seems a little unfair to me, as does comparisons with fluid Barcelona-style formations.

Dunne and Collins for all their various faults aren't complete shit houses on the ball. Dunne can control it under pressure, bring the ball down and play it simple. Collins actually has (or had) a decent range of passing when the radar is working. This was evident when he first came.

One of our better moments on Sunday was when we drew Newcastle in deep and Petrov hit a sublime ball to send Gabby away into space to run at their back line. That can be just as exciting and a technically correct method of approach as aimless, impotent Mowbray-esque possession football in non threatening areas.

We needed progress, sure. A few more strings to our bow and a bit of variation in our play. But it should have been evolution not revolution. We weren't in such bad a state that the whole thing needed to be ripped up and started again.

One by one, then.

1: of those defenders you mentioned, only Carragher and Skrtel are comparable on the ball to our defenders (as is Kyrgiakos, also of Liverpool, who finished below us). Agger, Bassong and even Dawson are better on the ball than our centre backs. Talking of teams who were around us last season, you missed out Everton's Jagielka and Distin, of whom certainly Distin (and I would say Jagielka as well, but that is a debate) is better on the ball than our defenders, and also Man City's defenders - Toure, Kompany and Lescott, mainly - who are certainly better in possession. Our defenders, on the ball, are at similar levels to those of Fulham and Sunderland - sides a level below where we want to be.

Also, centre-backs are one thing, but full-backs are another. Warnock, Luke Young and Cuellar (when played there) aren't good enough on the ball to be full-backs these days. Corluka and Assou-Ekotto (I don't really rate Hutton), Glen Johnson and Aurelio (who admittedly didn't play all the time, and they have no-one else), Baines (Hibbert is not good), Richards and Bridge - at least one and occasionally two very capable full-backs going forward, which we didn't have until Walker.

2: the idea that just because Barcelona are really good, we can't do a less-successful version without cocking the whole thing up. All 'less successful than Barcelona' means is not winning your league 30 points clear of the team in third.

3: yes, that COUNTER-ATTACK was a good bit of play. However, what do you do when the team sets up with 10-11 behind the ball? How do you counter-attack against that? To believe in a fluid, patient, possession-based approach to breaking teams down does not mean that good counter-attacks aren't effective IF you get the opportunity to do them - which you don't always, so you need a different approach for most of the time, especially if you're a good team playing at home.

Finally (to answer an earlier point), he may have known how we played, but not how we trained, as Eastie said. He naturally brought in his own methods, and whatever the inadequacies of the players a number of them reacted absolutely reprehensively. Not to excuse GH the mistakes he actually has made, but this isn't one entirely of his own design.

[KevinGage]

So I'd argue that we were in such a bad state that the whole thing needed to be ripped up and started again and whilst Houllier has been naive and clumsy in his methods at times, most of what ails this club began a good while before he arrived.

Odd, as I don't recall many clamouring on here for wholesale changes before and during the summer. The common consensus -in the pro and anti MON camp (and every shade of grey in between)- seemed to be that we were two players away from having an exceptional side.

Now the whole thing was so utterly rotten that GH had little choice but to take a flamethrower to it.

Things can change in a short period of time of course, the condition of Dunne was so bad that any manager coming in would have had a challenge there. I still haven't heard a convincing enough reason why a professional athlete came back of his hols resembling the Stay Puff Marshmellow Man. So maybe we had one additional, unexpected foray into the transfer market to contend with, should GH wish to rectify that in Jan (he didn't).

There were still three other decent CB's on the books though, and the rest of the set-up was largely sound.

Certainly sound enough one would have thought not to need to spend most of the second half of the campaign  fretting over the results of the likes of Wolves/ Olbiyun/ Wigan and co.

[Dave]

Also, centre-backs are one thing, but full-backs are another. Warnock, Luke Young and Cuellar (when played there) aren't good enough on the ball to be full-backs these days. Corluka and Assou-Ekotto (I don't really rate Hutton), Glen Johnson and Aurelio (who admittedly didn't play all the time, and they have no-one else), Baines (Hibbert is not good), Richards and Bridge - at least one and occasionally two very capable full-backs going forward, which we didn't have until Walker.

A bit of a re-write of history there I would say Monty.

On current form, Young and Warnock are awful. But it's only ten months since Warnock was making the England squad ahead of Baines (with little disagreement from most quarters here) and the season before that Young was being spoken of as England's best option for right-back and coming in the top three players in our Player Of The Year poll.

As I said, this season they've both been very poor when used. But in the not too distant past they have been looked like two of our best fullbacks in ages.

And without wanting to quote your post about centre-backs, if anyone had suggested at the end of last season (when we finished with one of the best defensive records in the country) that we would be complaining about the lack of Sylvain Distin or Sebastien Bassong in our defence they'd have been laughed out of town.

[Monty]

A bit of a re-write of history there I would say Monty.

On current form, Young and Warnock are awful. But it's only ten months since Warnock was making the England squad ahead of Baines (with little disagreement from most quarters here) and the season before that Young was being spoken of as England's best option for right-back and coming in the top three players in our Player Of The Year poll.

As I said, this season they've both been very poor when used. But in the not too distant past they have been looked like two of our best fullbacks in ages.

And without wanting to quote your post about centre-backs, if anyone had suggested at the end of last season (when we finished with one of the best defensive records in the country) that we would be complaining about the lack of Sylvain Distin or Sebastien Bassong in our defence they'd have been laughed out of town.

Have to say, I remember an awful lot of "eh?" when Warnock went to the World Cup ahead of Baines, not least in the less-biased media. As for Luke, I've never really rated him on the ball (bit of a 'panic and boof' habit), so I thoroughly stand by that. They are both primarily defensive full-backs - fine for the style we played, not very open, keeping things tight and looking to break, but not for GH's style.

For Collins and Dunne, the same applies. You're right, we didn't lack defensively for want of a Bassong or a Distin, but again, that was the style we played, very much based on the stopper centre-back. Again, when you're trying to play from the back, they are lacking.

[WikiVilla]

harsh on Luke Young to say he's been awful last 2 games ??

Kyle Walker has been awful last 2 games

[Monty]

harsh on Luke Young to say he's been awful last 2 games ??

Kyle Walker has been awful last 2 games

I think Luke is better at left-back, and has been ok these last two games. Why he's better at left-back I don't know, but it seems to be the case.

[KevinGage]

1: of those defenders you mentioned, only Carragher and Skrtel are comparable on the ball to our defenders (as is Kyrgiakos, also of Liverpool, who finished below us). Agger, Bassong and even Dawson are better on the ball than our centre backs. Talking of teams who were around us last season, you missed out Everton's Jagielka and Distin, of whom certainly Distin (and I would say Jagielka as well, but that is a debate) is better on the ball than our defenders, and also Man City's defenders - Toure, Kompany and Lescott, mainly - who are certainly better in possession. Our defenders, on the ball, are at similar levels to those of Fulham and Sunderland - sides a level below where we want to be.

Also, centre-backs are one thing, but full-backs are another. Warnock, Luke Young and Cuellar (when played there) aren't good enough on the ball to be full-backs these days. Corluka and Assou-Ekotto (I don't really rate Hutton), Glen Johnson and Aurelio (who admittedly didn't play all the time, and they have no-one else), Baines (Hibbert is not good), Richards and Bridge - at least one and occasionally two very capable full-backs going forward, which we didn't have until Walker.

Jagielka has never stuck me as a particularly classy defender, I must admit. He's the very definition of a meat and potatoes British CB.  Distin was always more of an athlete rather than a 'ping the ball around from the back' type CB -even at his peak at Man Citeh and Portsmouth. He is actually viewed as a bit of a liability by Everton fans now, the old 'his legs are going' argument.

I wouldn't have had Toure or Kompany down as exponents of the beautiful game either. Or Lescott for that matter (no sentence looks right with 'Lescott' and 'beautiful' in it).  They are athletes first and foremost, stoppers who can play the simple ball (and in Lescott's case can bomb forward when at fullback).

As for the fullbacks, Warnock at anything approaching his best is as good as most you've listed there, Baines and possibly Johnson excepted. Luke Young might have less of an allround game, but he isn't as much of a defensive liability as a fair few of those listed. A steady, 7/10 type fullback, who can bomb forward and play the simple ball when required but is more comfortable defending.

Only Cuellar for me fits the criteria for a defender on our books being a bit of a liability with the ball at his feet.

the idea that just because Barcelona are really good, we can't do a less-successful version without cocking the whole thing up. All 'less successful than Barcelona' means is not winning your league 30 points clear of the team in third.

With respect, it's like comparing apples and Nikkon cameras.

For one thing, you're talking about an exceptional crop of players who have all matured at roughly the same time. The bulk of that lot (particularly the midfield) have had the benefit of playing together for years and know each others game inside out.

It's great to watch a side like that at their peak, making it look easy. But you can't just transplant that method of playing and instruct a set of inferior players to ape it.

Any side in the top flight in England needs to be built for the specific, unique demands of this league. That's why sides with virtually unlimited resources (Chelsea/ Man Citeh) make signing strong 6ft+ athletes or players with plenty of stamina their priority. Even when they have foreign managers.

[Monty]

I didn't say that they were classy defenders in the Pique mould, merely that they're better than ours. And I disagree about Warnock, but there we are.

As for the style, taking Barcelona as a role model does NOT mean trying to play as well as Barcelona. That's impossible, you won't win as many games, you won't score as many goals, etc. Like you say, they are a once-in-a-generation side who have played together for years and all the rest of it. However, to use their excellence as an example of why nobody else can do it, as opposed to seeing how their methods are clearly successful, seems to me a bizarre leap of logic. Playing a fluid possession-based system (possibly 4-3-3, preferably for me but there are other options), aim to play the ball on the floor and press the ball high up the pitch - these are not current Barcelona innovations, these are innovations from the '60s, which Barcelona are just incredibly good at implementing.

Also, to say that teams have to stockpile giants to succeed in this league is mad. Of the current top 5, only the massively negative Man City are filled with really big players (Chelsea are athletic and physical, but Drogba aside they're not really big and tall). The team at the top of the league in this country commonly employs a six from midfield to attack of: Fletcher, Carrick, Nani, Park, Giggs, Rooney and Hernandez. What does that say about the importance of physicality in this league?

[KevinGage]

Any side containing the likes of Vidic, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Smalling, Carrick, Gibson, Berbetov and co isn't exactly struggling for height.

Discounting Berbetov; that lot plus Evra, Fletcher, Park, Valencia and Rooney aren't exactly synonymous with a lack of stamina either.  Man U are just not quite in the same financial position to cherry pick the way Man Citeh and Chelsea can.

[Steve67]

This season has been full of ups and downs, mostly downs.  Much of it has been MON's fault for walking out the way he did.  I think Houllier tried to change things too quickly and was tainted by his own stupid comments about Villa being a traditionally 8th to 12th type club.  Perhaps something got lost in the translation!!

Houllier then lost some of the players with the way he wanted to run the club.  Double sessions, mainly because the players didn't have a proper pre-season as MON had given up on them.  The downfall starting after the Carling Cup game against Manchester United and I think the writing was on the wall for MON with some of the expensive benchwarmers.  He'd hit the glass ceiling.

I neither dislike Houllier or feel that he'd be missed if he went.  Part of me wants a new Manager because that brings some excitement.  But, this summer is likely to be exciting anyway, if Houllier stays, as he'll get the backing to justify not sacking him.  Some good bits, some bads bits.  Keep him, sack him?  I'm completely torn.

[paul_e]

The idea of apeing barca involves 2 very basic elements.

In possession: Play in triangles, always give the man on the ball options (this is where the english game falls way behind the technically better nations and it's why we struggle at international level) keeping the ball is easy if there's always a simple pass on.

Out of possession: Make them play where you want them to be then win it back when they try to break the shackles.  For Barca they isolate the midfielders to make the centre backs the only out ball (but with Messi or Villa floating around them) and try to frustrate them into trying to go past a player or punt it forward.

It's really that simple.  That Barca are doing that with technically superb footballers who can all run for days on end makes it easier.  Having a central midfielder who can pass through the eye of a needle (xavi) and a forward who is quick, has great control and times his runs perfectly, as well as being the best finisher in the world (messi) makes things easier still.  Too many people put their success straight at the feet of the players though.  Guardiola has them playing such a simple plan that it's easy for the players to adapt to the opposition.

[Greg N'Ash]

i'm pretty much the same Newby. If houllier stays as manager then he'll get the summer to turn things around and show a real improvement on the pitch by christmas and maybe get some understanding of how our supporters expect our manager to act and maybe build some bridges. I'm not someone who expects a manager to continuously ingratiate himself with the fanbase like Gregory, but he'd do well to take a look at DOL's career. IF we pull off survival then its really up to Lerner to decide to go with GH or not.. Kudos to him for sticking with his man because if it had been up to many on here, this summer we'd be entering the 1st full season of Sam Allardyce's Villa reign instead of having options.

[Mazrim]

There were still three other decent CB's on the books though, and the rest of the set-up was largely sound.

Certainly sound enough one would have thought not to need to spend most of the second half of the campaign  fretting over the results of the likes of Wolves/ Olbiyun/ Wigan and co.

We spent/are spending the second half of the season fretting over results because we could hardly put the same team out one week from the next. Including those other centre halves you mention. Often injured or suspended or whatever.
The set up was sound but when half your squad is unavailable through injury, causing trouble, out of form or fitness, what can you do?

I must admit, I'm struggling to remember this consensus you speak of. The anti MON folks wanted him gone (obviously) and were sick of his style of football and lack of tactical nous and the pro MON folks were happy to give him more time and resources. I dont recall any general agreement on being two players away from an exceptional side. Some may have thought so, certainly. Without Milner leaving and no loss of enthusiasm from the management they may even have been right but that was not the case.
For my part, I certainly don't recall thinking so after seeing that team meander aimlessly through pre season and after the way the previous season tailed off.
But there was hope (certainly from myself) that MON could find his mojo, pull it all together and move onwards. Before he did one at the last minute and plunged us into turmoil that is.


To sum up, I strongly disagree that it was a case of "here's a really decent squad, get on with it" when Houllier took over.
More a case of "look, we're a bit all over the place here at the moment but you have something to work with, usually".

As Dave said, MON got the benefit of the doubt in his first season and it was seen as a stepping stone to better things, and in a way, it was.
But Houllier, who has had more adversity and is performing in similar fashion to MONs first season is painted unfavourably. He could still do better or worse than MON did in his first season.
In fact I very much think he will.