Where's O'Neill Now?

[KevinGage]

Incidentally, I'm not having this "he's a shit manager" nonsense - he quite clearly isn't, not unless you've got a very strange definition of "shit manager".

I just think he's got certain limitations, and his particular limitations were in precisely the areas where you need to be really on the ball if you're going to go from being 6th to being 4th - and, no, whatever you say about how many points of fourth we were, it might have well as been 100 points.

In a nutshell.

He came to us with a good reputation, and history will probably record him as one of our better managers.

[dave.woodhall]

Pieces of information about real events that have happened or circumstances that exist.

And which mysteriously can only be found when they suit your argument.

[brontebilly]

Come On bronte, if GED were the clown you describe could you explain why he has won so many trophies in his very successful management career?

There is also not getting France to the World Cup in 1994, failing to have one decent title charge at Liverpool, failing to really challenge the Champs League with a fine Lyon side.

Agreed he has won trophies. I really am struggling to figure out how particularly in cup competitions as his tactics here thus far have been really poor. I do think he has some good ideas about football and there was some good business done in January, he does seem to have his eye on the bigger picture than MON too re youth development, players going on loan etc. But his man mangement of players has proven disastrous plus his PR skills are incredibly inept for a manager of his experience. I dont think he really has the drive for the job at Villa Park and well the results paint a poor picture dont they.

Unlike MON he seems to be able to get players out of the club though so I cant imagine Lerner firing him in the summer. I will be truly shocked if he turns it around next season and proves me wrong. I still think with a few additions we would have a pretty decent squad but there is no never say die attitude in the players anymore, we collapse when things go against us and that is a huge indictment of the manager imo.

[pauliewalnuts]

Agreed he has won trophies. I really am struggling to figure out how particularly in cup competitions as his tactics here thus far have been really poor. I do think he has some good ideas about football and there was some good business done in January, he does seem to have his eye on the bigger picture than MON too re youth development, players going on loan etc. But his man mangement of players has proven disastrous plus his PR skills are incredibly inept for a manager of his experience. I dont think he really has the drive for the job at Villa Park and well the results paint a poor picture dont they.

I agree with you on the PR thing, he's been an unmitigated disaster on that front, he really is his own worse enemy at times.

re the way he handles players, though, maybe it was the players in the wrong, and maybe some of them needed a sharp kick up the backside?

[LeeB]

Agreed he has won trophies. I really am struggling to figure out how particularly in cup competitions as his tactics here thus far have been really poor. I do think he has some good ideas about football and there was some good business done in January, he does seem to have his eye on the bigger picture than MON too re youth development, players going on loan etc. But his man mangement of players has proven disastrous plus his PR skills are incredibly inept for a manager of his experience. I dont think he really has the drive for the job at Villa Park and well the results paint a poor picture dont they.

I agree with you on the PR thing, he's been an unmitigated disaster on that front, he really is his own worse enemy at times.

re the way he handles players, though, maybe it was the players in the wrong, and maybe some of them needed a sharp kick up the backside?

Absolutely. It's seems impossible for some to seperate the two though.

[Dave Cooper please]

And the facts are........?

Pieces of information about real events that have happened or circumstances that exist.

Ah, sarcasm! The fall-back response from those who have lost the argument.

[Villa'Zawg]

 dave.woodhall: --- Quote from: Villadawg on March 13, 2011, 07:55:26 PM ---Pieces of information about real events that have happened or circumstances that exist. --- End quote ---And which mysteriously can only be found when they suit your argument.

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Think about it.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them.If I knew of facts that were at odds with my argument, I'd change my opinion wouldn't I?

[dave.woodhall]

dave.woodhall: --- Quote from: Villadawg on March 13, 2011, 07:55:26 PM ---Pieces of information about real events that have happened or circumstances that exist. --- End quote ---And which mysteriously can only be found when they suit your argument.

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Think about it.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them.If I knew of facts that were at odds with my argument, I'd change my opinion wouldn't I?

You say that many other clubs spent more than we did, yet when asked to provide proof you can't.

[eastie]

Maybe dave, villadawg thinks that 2 clubs is many?

[Villa'Zawg]

 dave.woodhall: --- -You say that many other clubs spent more than we did, yet when asked to provide proof you can't.

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I didn't say that, I asked a question; "How much time and money have Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Man City spent on building their squads compared to us?"

[cb]

Regarding the whole money/O'Neill thing. I still think he did a pretty good job. Yes there were mistakes, and had he bought a proper goalscorer and a classy attacking central midfielder instead of some others then things might have been different. However your talkinghere about achieving absolute perfection in the transfer market; you know the type of thing you do on championship manager, when you reboot the game after making a mess of it first time round!

I certainly don't deny that he had a lot of money to spend, however, I think the last couple of years have shown that you either have an absolutely humongous amount to spend a la City, or you spend a lot, and through speculation and sound management over the years make the transition a la Spurs (people need to realise that the timescale for this approach is ~10years though!).

Had O'Neill had more time and less pressure, maybe he could have achieved it, maybe not we'll never know now. The only thing that concerns me now is that what happens if Houllier walks next year, do we need to go through another heave and change of stlye when a new manager comes in. The one thing Spurs had for the majority of their transition was a DOF in place, so the recruitment approach was largely the same throughout. Managers came and went, but by and large their approach to signings was more or less the same (young talented up and coming players). Of course it looked like it wasn't working when Ramos was there and then they got Redknapp in and ditched the DOF. However, while Redknapp has done well, he pretty much had all the ingredients he needed there to make the top four.

The thing I feel we're crying out for is that bit of continuity. It may take time, it may even take a long time, as I think you also need o be lucky. For us to make it we're going to need one of Man U, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea to fall off their perch. It might be tough to swallow, but we need to realise that it is not all within our control. We have to get to a good level and hang in there until an opportunity comes along. People will argue and maybe correctly that O'Neill missed some opportunities. Maybe Houllier will next year, who knows?What I do know is that we need this continuity in our approach and I fear that it is not there at the moment. Hopefully it's something that we can discover soon, as we're going to need it!

[KevinGage]

dave.woodhall: --- Quote from: Villadawg on March 13, 2011, 07:55:26 PM ---Pieces of information about real events that have happened or circumstances that exist. --- End quote ---And which mysteriously can only be found when they suit your argument.

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Think about it.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them.If I knew of facts that were at odds with my argument, I'd change my opinion wouldn't I?

Or:

You'd shop around for a (completely unverified) set of stats from that Swiss Rambler site or similar, and pass those of as facts when it suits your latest half baked theory.

The irony of your tagline is not lost on you yet I see.

[Mazrim]

Oh lordy.

[dave.woodhall]

dave.woodhall: --- -You say that many other clubs spent more than we did, yet when asked to provide proof you can't.

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I didn't say that, I asked a question; "How much time and money have Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Man City spent on building their squads compared to us?"

I do love the way you claim to be asking a rhetorical question while at the same time making your own opinion (not fact - you still haven't provided any of them) quite clear.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

I need to see a set of Spurs accounts.