Gerard Houllier

[pauliewalnuts]

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager. 

Do you think we'd have been less likely to have Houllier appointed if Martin had left in May?

[pauliewalnuts]

Pete Colley just been on SSN from outside BMH saying some stuff about "a senior source" in the dressing room saying GH is not at all popular with some senior players.

[Villa'Zawg]

A somewhat cyclical argument, but the very fact that had MON not left when he had, Houllier wouldn't even have been considered for the job, shows that you can't pretend MON's departure had no effect.

Sorry, but when MON left none of us were considerign him for the job.  It's the way Randy wanted to go so fair enough, but if you jacked your job tomorrow and whoever replaced you was shite, would you accept you were partially to blame for a decision you had no hand in?  And with all the arguments about the timing of his departure, lets not forget that the club took their time in finding a new man and didn't jump into anything.

Martin left us in a much better state than we are in now, so what had happened since he's gone is simply not his fault.

If i left my job at zero notice and my employer had to replace me quickly and from a very small pool of willing candidates, yes, it would be partly my fault. I wouldn't kill myself with guilt over it, and I am sure Martin won't be, but it would still be largely of my doing.

THe point about his departure timing is that we had a smaller choice of people to fish from, and that is one contributing factor to why we ended up with Houllier

If Martin had left at the start of the summer, or the end of the previous season, we'd have had far more time to get a replacement, and managers are more likely to be prepared to move at the end of a season than they are a handful of days before the start of the season. I don't see how anyone can not see that.

As for Martin having left us in a fine state, I think we're discovering now that things weren't quite so rosey.

I don't know what is most disappointing, the disarray he left us in or the apparent contempt with which he did it. All these posters saying "Houllier doesn't think anything of the club" - here's a question, how much do they think MON "felt" for the club when he ditched us with such dreadful timing?

No one is arguing that O'Neill left at the ideal time. As you say, it would have been better if the situation had been dealt with at the end of last season.

 Docherty, Crowe, Barton, Mc'Neill, Little, Gregory, GTII all took over mid-season and most likely didn't start off as badly as Gerard has. It's also worth noting that O'Neill himself only took over O'Leary's squad 2 weeks before we played Arsenal.

What is so special about our situation this time that makes the timing any worse for Gerard than when any other manager joins a club "mid-season"?

[Toronto Villa]

Pete Colley just been on SSN from outside BMH saying some stuff about "a senior source" in the dressing room saying GH is not at all popular with some senior players.

did the report start Sky Sports Understands and have no actual quotes whatsoever? Then followed by pictures of Dunne and Ireland leaving training together having a right old laugh?

[Concrete John]

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager. 

Do you think we'd have been less likely to have Houllier appointed if Martin had left in May?

I think there would have been more candidates in May, if that's what you mean.

Do you think Houllier was our best option even given the timing? 

[JUAN PABLO]

Pete Colley just been on SSN from outside BMH saying some stuff about "a senior source" in the dressing room saying GH is not at all popular with some senior players.

yeah  probably Dunne, Ireland and Carew..    fook them off then

[Legion]

Pete Colley just been on SSN from outside BMH saying some stuff about "a senior source" in the dressing room saying GH is not at all popular with some senior players.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears really do shit in the woods.

[pauliewalnuts]

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager. 

Do you think we'd have been less likely to have Houllier appointed if Martin had left in May?

I think there would have been more candidates in May, if that's what you mean.

Do you think Houllier was our best option even given the timing? 

Of those I believe were gettable, yes.

You seem to think Jol was gettable, though, which I disagree on. We probably both think he'd have been a better bet, but that's by the by, if they're not available, they're not available.

If we'd been looking in May, we'd have been looking at a wider range of possibilities, and he almost certainly wouldn't have been the best option.

I'm not saying everything is MON's fault (which Villadawg, I observe, seems to be suggesting I am, having totally and utterly missed the point yet again), far from it, nor am I saying that Houllier is doing brilliantly - far from it.

I am just saying that to suggest MON's timing had nothing to do with Houllier getting the job is a touch naive.

[KevinGage]

I'm trying to figure out at what point did Martin Jol turn into Jose Mourinho.?The way some people have thrown his name about you'd think he'd won everything there is to win in the game, and that we were such fools not to appoint him 5 days before the start of the season. That the illustrious one would just walk away from CL Ajax into our arms. Did I miss the multiple championships and cups he's won?

Instead, after much thought we appointed a man who, funnily enough has won a number of trophies in his career, and must be doing his nut as much as all of us as to why the results have gone the way they have. I can only imagine he cannot wait to turf out some of the players who have completely sold out the club and bring in his own players that actually want to give something back.

Things aren't going well, but given that Houllier has never suffered a relegation in his career, he won't want to start at the age of 63. I'm still of the belief that we will get through this, and we will build through our academy and astute signings a better club, playing better football.

I think it might be the belief that Jol still has something in the tank and might be keen to improve us.

Rather than GH who -although successful almost a decade ago- seems to be in winddown mode. A CV packed with success is great, but I wouldn't want George Graham or Giovanni Trapattoni managing us either -and they can probably trump GH a few times over for total trophies won. If that's the only criteria you're using we could just go the whole hog and dig up the bones of  Helenio Herrera or Jock Stein and have them scattered around the dugout (they'd still  probably be more animated than GH).

I'm not sold on Jol either. The trophy aspect doesn't bother me a great deal (how many trophies had Brian Little won as a manager before he took over in 1994?), we're not the kind of club that can realistically demand success as of right. I'm more concerned with his final season at Tottingham and how he had a bunch of talented players scrambling about at the arse end of the table.

Against that, he did get them to close to CL qualification on a few occasions and was only 3 points off doing so for Hamburg in 2009.

So effectively we're talking about a successful (but past it) manager balanced against the merits of a younger manager who hasn't quite achieved (yet). But has got close already on a number of occasions and should be hungry to make that breakthrough with us.

As with the players we should be targeting, I'd much rather have a manager who wants to contribute and have his best times here, rather than one just drifting and looking at newspaper cuttings of his glory days.

[Concrete John]

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager. 

Do you think we'd have been less likely to have Houllier appointed if Martin had left in May?

I think there would have been more candidates in May, if that's what you mean.

Do you think Houllier was our best option even given the timing? 

Of those I believe were gettable, yes.

You seem to think Jol was gettable, though, which I disagree on. We probably both think he'd have been a better bet, but that's by the by, if they're not available, they're not available.

Yeah, I think that's the key phrase where we disagree - 'gettable'. 

Just to play devils advocate though, can anyone confirm how long after we had to wait for Houllier did Jol jack in it at Ajax?

[PaulTheVillan]

Jol went in Oct/Nov?

[jonzy85]

I think MON's departure along with not appointing a manager until after the transfer window meant that we could not expect to realistically kick on from last year. Losing Milner and getting Ireland also weakened us. I dont think anyone would disagree.

However, even after the above events, I dont think anyone, even the most pessismistic, expected us to be 1 point above the relegation places at the turn of the year.

The squad we have should be good enough to keep us in mid table at the very least. Granted we have had a miserable run of injuries, but players are coming back and things seem to be getting worse if not better.

Houllier has to take the blame for where we are. If we were sitting between 8-12th (where is as high as he thinks we can be), you would have to give him the benefit of the doubt of the circumstances he found himself in.

But, I dont think the circumstances were as bad as are being made out. He inherited a squad that finished 6th 3 years consecutively, albeit minus Milner. Throw in the youngsters who have matured this season into Premier League players. Do we not also have some of the best training facilities in the country?

Instead of utilising what he had at his disposal he has alienated Dunne, Carew, Ireland as well as supposedly rowed with Lichaj and Albrigthon after yesterday's game. Ok, a lot of the disharmony is rumours etc, but i think in his case there is too much smoke for there to be no fire.

Now Dunne, Carew and Ireland are far from blameless. Through a combination of bad form and attitude they have not served us well this season. However, Dunne and Carew have served us exceptionally well in the past and Ireland, the little toerag that he is, has the capability to be a top player. I note it seems to be a popular opinion to get rid of these and let Houllier get his own men in. Well Im afraid I would be of the opposite opinion and say get rid of Houllier and keep our best players, get in a new manager who knows the meaning of man-management and hopefully kick on from there.

[pauliewalnuts]

Look, this isn't about Jol in particular, but I simply cannot accept the argument that Martin's timing is why Houllier is the manager. 

Do you think we'd have been less likely to have Houllier appointed if Martin had left in May?

I think there would have been more candidates in May, if that's what you mean.

Do you think Houllier was our best option even given the timing? 

Of those I believe were gettable, yes.

You seem to think Jol was gettable, though, which I disagree on. We probably both think he'd have been a better bet, but that's by the by, if they're not available, they're not available.

Yeah, I think that's the key phrase where we disagree - 'gettable'. 

Just to play devils advocate though, can anyone confirm how long after we had to wait for Houllier did Jol jack in it at Ajax?

He resigned on December 6th, after having fallen well short in the title race and been knocked out of the Champions League.

Maybe we should have just predicted that would happen and waited? If only it were so easy.

Surely, though, having said you thought Martin left us in a very strong position, we had something to maintain, so waiting for a manager to become available would have meant throwing away something?

It's all so easy isn't it, this football chairman lark. It's the same for (not you) the people screaming "sack Houllier now!". Not one of them has put forward a compelling plan re what we do next.

[pauliewalnuts]

Jol went in Oct/Nov?

December 6th.

[Simba]

I think it was a good choice in principal. Team three times at sixth. Fans wanting more expansive, creative footy and a need to break into the so called top four. He was a surprise granted  -but made some sense. Given his CV.

Hindsight is a fantastic supporter of the cynic.

I want him out asap now.