Dunne in bust up with Houllier & McAllister on Friday - NOTW

[villa1]

He has been poor this season. Very. Very good last season.

He was overweight but I can't help but think it's a little over exagerated. He doesn't look as overweight to me as some people are making out.

[hawkeye]

He has been poor this season. Very. Very good last season.

He was overweight but I can't help but think it's a little over exagerated. He doesn't look as overweight to me as some people are making out.

he certainly does not look in the same shape as he was last season, i think there maybe refuelling issues

[BannedUserIAT]

I think it has been exagerated a little but you only have to look into what kind of training a striker will put into his game to realise that, to counter that threat, you have to train harder. Can you imagine, for example, what an extra few kilo's will do to an olympic sprinter? It'd kill any aspirations for medal contention. So why would Dunne think he could contend with modern-day strikers carrying some extra padding...even if it's fairly minimal?

I also suspect that there's been a shift in defensive thinking from Houllier that doesn't necessarily suit Dunne. Have a look at Carlos' game against the Baggies and you'll see that he tends to shift toward the ball to cut the threat out before it becomes a threat. The Dunne/Collins method seems to be to sit back and try to deal with the threat when it's 'do or die' time and every time Dunne has pushed forward to kill the threat early, he's been found wanting. Again, that's just my theory and could be bollocks.

Still, it all seems to me that it's a case of a bloke who's out of form, overweight and under fire from the fans (and, to be a fair to him, lacking true defensive bite from the midfield) trying to find someone else to blame.

We'll no doubt find out if the defensive tactics that are in place are up to scratch or not over the next few weeks as we come up against far greater tests than West Brom.

[pauliewalnuts]

Yesterday, there were several occasions where Cuellar made interceptions / tackles that I found myself thinking "Dunne wouldn't have managed that"

The last player I used to get that about was Friedel, shortly after he joined, where I'd find myself frequently saying "Carson wouldn't have got to that"

[hawkeye]

i think Troys analisys is spot on, the defender allways has the advantage, because he is generally looking in the same direction that he wants the ball to go, but when you are a split second off the pace as a defender you are in trouble your advantage is lost, the natural reaction is to retreat, Dunne is in that zone right now he is playing defensively, good defenders are offensive in terms of winning the ball

[KevinGage]

I think it has been exagerated a little but you only have to look into what kind of training a striker will put into his game to realise that, to counter that threat, you have to train harder. Can you imagine, for example, what an extra few kilo's will do to an olympic sprinter? It'd kill any aspirations for medal contention. So why would Dunne think he could contend with modern-day strikers carrying some extra padding...even if it's fairly minimal?

I also suspect that there's been a shift in defensive thinking from Houllier that doesn't necessarily suit Dunne. Have a look at Carlos' game against the Baggies and you'll see that he tends to shift toward the ball to cut the threat out before it becomes a threat. The Dunne/Collins method seems to be to sit back and try to deal with the threat when it's 'do or die' time and every time Dunne has pushed forward to kill the threat early, he's been found wanting. Again, that's just my theory and could be bollocks.

Still, it all seems to me that it's a case of a bloke who's out of form, overweight and under fire from the fans (and, to be a fair to him, lacking true defensive bite from the midfield) trying to find someone else to blame.

We'll no doubt find out if the defensive tactics that are in place are up to scratch or not over the next few weeks as we come up against far greater tests than West Brom.

Of course in the case of Dunne it's not fairly minimal extra padding either. He looks out of shape and plays like it too. It affects every part of a players performance, his fitness.

Think of even recent occasions when he's been turned inside out by some pretty mediocre players, misjudged challenges and misplaced headers.

I reckon Houllier has doubts about Cuellar too, mainly centred on his distribution. We're trying to work the ball out from the back more and Dunne (when fit and on form) and particularly Collins have decent distribution. Not world class by any means, but Dunne can (or could) control a ball and play it simple (or basically wouldn't panic) and Colllins is capable of pretty decent medium> longterm passing. Both have declined badly this season but Dunne moreso than anyone else.

Houllier might now reason that even if Cuellar is suspect with the ball at his feet and even if he is more than capable of dropping the odd clanger himself, he's less error prone than Dunne at the moment.

That combined with this alleged spat on Friday will hopefully see Carlos stay in the side for the foreseeable.

Our defence as a unit has looked suspect for large chunks of the campaign, it hasn't  just been Dunne. But it's noticeable that Collins and even Warnock looked far better and more composed yesterday. Sometimes one adjustment rather than wholesale changes can make all the difference.

[Dave Cooper please]

Was it a coincidence that Collins looked more composed and comfortable yesterday alongside Cuellar? I think not, Collins hasn't been great himself but centre-backs hunt as a pair usually and if one of the pair is woefully off form it will inevitably drag the other one down with him.

[avfcpg]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Richard-Dunne-facing-the-axe-from-Aston-Villa-after-his-training-ground-bust-up-article650269.html

Interesting bit in The Mirror. Ok it is The Mirror but if true then well done GH I say.

[hawkeye]

i also think that Friedel has looked indecisive, we have conceded quite a few goals this season that Friedel could have should have prevented, when it starts going wrong in defence it is contageous. there is allways a leader in defence, it can be Goalkeeper centre half or even fullback, when it starts to go wrong you have to change the leadership. Houlier at last did this and dropped Dunne

[BannedUserIAT]

No coincidence, Dave. Look at Dunne's own goal a few weeks back when he 'seemed' to be distracted by the incoming Collins. They just tend to go for the same type of ball, run into the same sort of position, read the game the same. I think it worked OK last season as the midfield slowed any attack right down. At the moment, because of injuries and because Houllier will prefer a more 'cultured' midfielder, it means that defenders will have to a lot more thinking and come to the ball a lot earlier. Not, I suspect, Dunne's game. And if you commit and fuck it up, it's hard to recover....especially if your carrying what amounts to a sack of spuds.

[hawkeye]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Richard-Dunne-facing-the-axe-from-Aston-Villa-after-his-training-ground-bust-up-article650269.html

Interesting bit in The Mirror. Ok it is The Mirror but if true then well done GH I say.

these storys tend to emegre when things -results are not going well, it could be lazy journalism and the mirror reonstituting the NOTW story but i doubt  there is smoke without fire.

[dave.woodhall]

This time next week all these stories will be about Everton.

[hawkeye]

Collins is a long way from the complete Centre Half, give him balls to attack and he will attack them, his distribution is generally poor and he gets turned too easily

[hawkeye]

This time next week all these stories will be about Everton.

yep and they could still be about us

[brontebilly]

Collins is a long way from the complete Centre Half, give him balls to attack and he will attack them, his distribution is generally poor and he gets turned too easily

Big time in the main I thought Collins was poor at the weekend. He started really poorly. He improved in the second half but was stuck on the ground for their equaliser. Cuellar had a good game and was generally assured covering behind Lichaj really well. But he also made a terrible mistake near the end that they could have scored from. Collins tfor me has been worse than Dunne this season and doesnt look fully fit either.

I've dug out some stats about our goals conceded historically. Last year's total 39 was the lowest since 35 was conceded back in 99/00. 07/08 was the only full season that Martin Laursen played for Villa really with 38 appearances. People remember the 6 goals he scored but care to forget the 51 that were conceded that year. That was with a far better left back in Bouma and Mellberg at right back if memory serves correct. Curtis davies/Knight as partners in defence, Petrov, Reo Coker and Barry in midfield so it wasnt all attacking players. Far from it but we conceded a lot.

To be fair I think from April on last season that Dunne was carrying an injury and badly needed to be rested. Didnt he have to come off in one game he was so knackered. That injury seem to be still affecting him. The opening day really was worrying in hindsight remember Carlton Cole showing him a clean pair of heels down the line at one stage whereas Dunne last season would have demolished him. I didnt see the Newcastle game and he was diabolical against Bolton. But before Reo Coker got injured I felt he was coming back to his best, despite the og I thought he was excellent against Sunderland, Fulham. Even against Blackburn I thought he was our best player. But a stint out of the team might give him the kick up the arse he needs plus time to sort out his knee. Even still the criticism of him is well over the top, he isnt a coward like Warnock for a start, Collins has arguably been worse over the same period and the protection from midfield has been non existent. Last Saturday it was noticeable the far better application of the wide players when we didnt have the ball. Heskey in the first half aswell gave it everything. Compare that to a couple of Gabby's frankly unacceptable perforformances away to Blackburn and Liverpool where he didnt try a leg. Pretty difficult as a defender if the lone centre forward isnt trying and the likes of Bannan, Ireland, Downing, Albrighton, Young arent going to tackle or pressurise in front of them.

The thing about Dunne is he needs to be at full tilt in terms of conditioning to be at his best. I have watched him for years for Ireland and he operates best in the Trappatoni system with holding midfielders and is great at the man to man combat against physical strikers. A tricky elusive player he struggles with as does Collins so maybe that is where Cuellar could come into the reckoning. If we want to go down a different route tactically then sure he is expendable espeically at his age as I dont think he will have a long career at the top level due to his honeymonster days at Everton and Man City. But his performances at Villa last season deserve a huge level of respect and as the stats prove were better than anything seen at Villa Park for 10 years. You can be sure aswell that his intentions were genuine if indeed there was a row on Friday at the training ground and since the team responded with 3 points it could be said that it was justified.