Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: wozwebs on December 12, 2010, 09:12:50 AM
-
RICHARD DUNNE has been involved in an amazing training ground bust-up with Gerard Houllier and Gary McAllister.
Dunne tore into Aston Villa's under-fire manager and his assistant during the extraordinary scenes on Friday afternoon.
The Villa central defender launched a four-letter tirade that stunned players and left Houllier and McAllister shocked.
Dunne was left on the bench for Saturday's 2-1 win over West Brom.
He had become increasingly angry with the approach after the team's disastrous run of games under the new boss.
They were stuffed 3-0 at Liverpool on Monday and Dunne is furious that they have slipped into the lower reaches of the Premier League.
The Republic of Ireland defender was so angry with the lack of input from McAllister in training he called a halt to the session himself.
Unhappy... Dunne in training
In front of the stunned Villa players Dunne let rip at what he believes is an unpro- fessional approach to top-class players.
Shocked coach McAllister, who was taking the session as Houllier watched on the sidelines, was left speechless by the sheer venom of Dunne's attack.
In between expletives, Dunne claimed that the training was "a joke" and that their tactics were "desperate".
Dunne has the complete support of the dressing- room following the remarkable scenes that took place just after midday.
The former Manchester City defender has not been impressed with the approach of Houllier and McAllister.
Some of the players claim Houllier is unable to form effective relationships with his squad and has already alientated himself.
McAllister was appointed to coach the first team, but his methods are "in the dark ages" according to one Villa source.
Houllier lost the support of fans last Monday when he continued his love-in with former club Liverpool.
The Villa chief touched the 'This is Anfield' sign on the way out of the dressing rooms and applauded the Kop at the final whistle.
Amazingly, he then went on to say that if he had to lose 3-0, he would "rather it be to Liverpool".
-
I think Dunne is just raging at the fact they did away with after training refreshments. His playing's been in the dark ages this season.
I always thought that Dunne had that quiet bit of internal fury going on.
-
Anyone think this is more likely Dunne having strop because he was told he was dropped on Friday.
Because, HE has been totally unprofessional, HE has put zero input into Aston Villa and HE has fucked up nearly every week.
So if true have a look in the mirror Dunne you hypocrit.
-
Hmm, well Dunne needs to take a look in the mirror before he calls others unprofessional.
Having said that, yesterdays performance was far more in keeping with the MON style than the GH style which is maybe why we got the right result.
I want to give Houllier every chance but last weeks antics at Liverpool followed by this confirms my thoughts that his was a poor appointment on several levels.
-
Probably over rationing his pie intake more likely.
The players did not look like they did not wish to perform yesterday.
-
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm as crap as he's been this season. this shouldn't be happening if true.
Togetherness required big time.
message to Dunnie - lay off the pasties and get fit,and remember, it's you who's partly to blame for our league position.
-
Dont know what to beleive really, Its out of order to act like that but is there any truthfulness in it .....Our defence is shocking this year and its not all down to the defenders it also comes down to tactics and training methods .....The Dunneymonsters defo carrying a few extra pounds this year but why is he allowed to get away with that I thought players got weighed like every few days in the modern game ! Will have to see how much of this story we can beleive
-
Dunne should sort himself out before laying into others
but... this isn't the only sign of concern about McAllister?
-
Interesting..
Unfortunately I wasn’t at the game yesterday, but BBC 5Live presenter was saying this morning that we scored our first goal Collins went over to McAllister and had a real go at him.
Unsubstantiated so…. Anyone else see this? What’s going on?
-
This we really dont need. Dunne needs to have a good look at himself and see what we all see.
-
If the reports are true and the Villa players support Dunne then it is a worrying situation. McAllister was third choice for GH and his history isn't that great. There is more to come of this I am sure.
-
Out of sorts player rants at new coach, blames him for everything. Never happens.
Hopefully this is the start of Phase 2. Tha G-Dogg has worked out who the wrong-uns are and feeds them to his cat
-
Whoever had a go at who (or Hou) is neither here 'nor there but there does appear to be something wrong.
There was no doubting the players commitment after yesterdays performance, but did the inspiration come from the players themselves or the manager and his staff?
-
Dunne dererves to be on the bench- he has been poor and is overweight - mcallister however has been a flop as manager and coach in every job he has had and at the time of his appointment I expressed my surprise that houllier had chosen him- a good player yes but as a coach a d manager a total failure!
If phil Thompson had come with houllier I think we would have been much better off- if there is now a division between players and coach it spells major problems !As for Richard dunne, Carew and Ireland-get rid asap!
-
We have lost games that we should have drawn and drawn games that we should have won because of a fat slob in our number 5 shirt. Sort youself out first before sorting others Mr Dunne!
-
I doubt there's much to this, to be honest; I think houllier is regarded as a very modern, progressive manager isn't he?
Either way, if this results in Dunne leaving, then fine by me.
-
Collins wasn't having a go after the goal. They were talking about positioning and that sort of thing. No arguing.
-
I would keep Dunne out of the side for a while untill he get's his self in shape and cut's out the errors that he makes all to often.
-
London Villan - thanks, I'd rather go with the positive
-
Whatever the truth of this, there is clearly something wrong with the atmosphere among the players. There seems a complete lack of togetherness and spirit - a number of times this season goals have been celebrated by 3 or 4 players only and I just think the body language is really poor.
-
But if the players think that training methods under Gary Mac are like the "dark ages" then that is a bit of a worry. Particularly as I suspect the methods used under the previous regime would hardly have been at the forefront of modern thinking.
-
Could it be that they were so used to it being so easy under Martin, that now there is abit of discipline they have to actually work hard in training.
I cant see the team being behind Dunne, they see what we see and must be pissed off with Dunne this season.
-
It's the NOTW.
-
Think you have hit the nail on the head there gibbo, mon rarely was seen during training and houllier is very hands on and has increased the training so maybe in march we won't run out of steam- maybe some players would rather be back in Manchester having a pie and pint than slogging away in the cold midlands !
-
It's the NOTW.
Is probably the best starting point.
-
Richard Dunne was one of our best players last season and while I am disappointed in his performances tis season, I won't forget his contribution last.
If this is true, it bodes very badly for us.
-
After last Monday's episode, I'm not quite sure who to beleive in whats gone on, or who's right.?
Yes, Dunne is clearly unfit, but is there truth in any of the rant that he made?
To be honest, The only person I trust down there at the moment is Sid. Hopefully, he tells it the way it is to the powers that be.
-
It's the NOTW.
Is probably the best starting point.
Much as I an reticent to defend the gutter press, they tend to be correct in the reporting of this type of thing, if not particularly accurate. The "transfer gossip" is usually a load of old horlicks though.
-
Anyone who belives anything from the NOTW is true or that Mons training methods are more modern than Houlliers, really does need to look hard at themselves.
Especially when you consider the player they base their conspiracy theories around is an overweight out of form player with a known drink problem who has been a trouble maker for most of his career.
Following the awful Anfield performance and the subsequent flack yesterday showed one thing above all else, the players responded to Houlliers and his coaches
-
*Reads article, is a bit concerned*
*Checks source*
*Relaxes in the knowledge that it is almost certainly complete bollocks*
-
Couldn't really care less...
However, if Dunne can't get himself fit and start to concentrate during games, then he can bugger off and take Ireland, Carew and Sidwell with him. I wouldn't give one jot if I never saw any of those three in a Villa shirt again
-
Interesting..
Unfortunately I wasn’t at the game yesterday, but BBC 5Live presenter was saying this morning that we scored our first goal Collins went over to McAllister and had a real go at him.
Unsubstantiated so…. Anyone else see this? What’s going on?
Yeah I seen it! But McAllister was giving him instructions there was no ''having a go''!
-
The players seemed happy enough yesterday. They can fight duels every Friday if that's the outcome.
-
An alternative NOTW headline;
"Unfit 30 year old porker critices new training regime of manager with 40+ years of experience".
Potential NOTW headline for January,
"Dunne joins ..... Wigan".
-
*Reads article, is a bit concerned*
*Checks source*
*Relaxes in the knowledge that it is almost certainly complete bollocks*
I reckon it is almost certainly sensationalised but it's fairly explicit so I'd be surprised if it was a complete fabrication. We'll know soon enough because if is just lies then the club will tell us.
-
I cant see the team being behind Dunne,
If the team stand behind Dunne you won't see them anyway!
Probably upset as Houlier wanted the Carol singers to sing "How ate all the pies" at the players Christmas Do.
-
Interesting..
Unfortunately I wasn’t at the game yesterday, but BBC 5Live presenter was saying this morning that we scored our first goal Collins went over to McAllister and had a real go at him.
Unsubstantiated so…. Anyone else see this? What’s going on?
This happened right in front of me (I sit behind the dugouts). Collins did not have a "right go" at G-Mac. However, he was quite animated and seemed to be forthrightly putting across his point.
This was not long after Collins and Warnock had been turned inside out by the Baggies' winger, so I guess he was asking for more defensive help from Stewie.
-
Dont think I have looked at a copy of the News of the World in quite a while.
Would I be correct in assuming it is still a filthy cheap sunday rag, serving up a diet of sensationalised non news and celebrity garbage for the ill educated and great unwashed of this country ? With their cheap uninformed politically dodgy views which pander to certain peoples intolerant uninformed bigotted and often racist outlook on life. Or for those who are incapable of forming any opinion (even a crap opinion) need to have the vacumn that leaves in their air head to be filled with stories about Katie & Peter or some bloody nonentity thats appeared from bloody nowhere on a progarmme like bloody X Factor or bloody Big Brother( oh god thank heavens at least thats bloody finished!) or whatever other stupid ridiculous bloody reality programme the TV people decide to serve up next to help fill all the bloody air time available from having 300 different bloody channels . Yes the News of the bloody World, crap rubbish news about a world of alco pop swigging ecstasy pill popping ill mannered loud brash celebrity wannabees who think the world owes them a living and they want it all and they want it all right now even though they havent got two brains cells between them to rub together to come up with one really good reason why they have ever done a single worthwhile thing in their empty bloody vacuous sad lives that would justify them having so much as the right to deserve the money in their pockets to as much as be able to buy a copy of the News of the bloody World in the first place.
No. Nasty little paper, Ive never liked it. And ive never believed a word its said either
-
The sheer cheek of the bloke. I've not seen a professional football so out of shape since Neil Ruddock last heaved his bulk around a football field. Dunne has been a disgrace this season, both in terms of attitude and in actual displays which have mostly been beyond poor.
-
"Dunne joins ..... Wigan".
With the number of pie shops there, it'd be a marriage made in heaven.
-
There was some talking going on between mcalister & Collins but that was after we scored, didn't appear to be an argument.
Maybe Dunne did have a go? Maybe it was a reaction to being told he was dropped? Rightyl so in my opinion he's been a disgrace lately. I really cannot see a Villa player saying to the NOTW that its like the dark ages!
-
The sheer cheek of the bloke. I've not seen a professional football so out of shape since Neil Ruddock last heaved his bulk around a football field. Dunne has been a disgrace this season, both in terms of attitude and in actual displays which have mostly been beyond poor.
Pretty much my reaction. If it is true, and it these things usually are, then you can fuck right off fatty, and as Richard said, you can take Baldy, Ginger and the B.F.G. with you.
Our kid said to me right at the start of the season that he never really felt Dunne wanted to be here, and it struck a chord with me because the same thought had been nagging me for a while.
-
Maybe being named in the Prem League Team of the season went to his head a bit. He was superb last season let's not forget that, but deserves to be dropped on his current form.
-
If they did have a bust up, maybe it's to do with the defensive side of training. Do we have a specialist defensive trainer that works with the first team? As Sid and mac were very much attacking players.
-
Dont think I have looked at a copy of the News of the World in quite a while.
Would I be correct in assuming it is still a filthy cheap sunday rag, serving up a diet of sensationalised non news and celebrity garbage for the ill educated and great unwashed of this country ? With their cheap uninformed politically dodgy views which pander to certain peoples intolerant uninformed bigotted and often racist outlook on life. Or for those who are incapable of forming any opinion (even a crap opinion) need to have the vacumn that leaves in their air head to be filled with stories about Katie & Peter or some bloody nonentity thats appeared from bloody nowhere on a progarmme like bloody X Factor or bloody Big Brother( oh god thank heavens at least thats bloody finished!) or whatever other stupid ridiculous bloody reality programme the TV people decide to serve up next to help fill all the bloody air time available from having 300 different bloody channels . Yes the News of the bloody World, crap rubbish news about a world of alco pop swigging ecstasy pill popping ill mannered loud brash celebrity wannabees who think the world owes them a living and they want it all and they want it all right now even though they havent got two brains cells between them to rub together to come up with one really good reason why they have ever done a single worthwhile thing in their empty bloody vacuous sad lives that would justify them having so much as the right to deserve the money in their pockets to as much as be able to buy a copy of the News of the bloody World in the first place.
No. Nasty little paper, Ive never liked it. And ive never believed a word its said either
Now THATS a nice rant. Bravo Andy! ;D
-
Dunne was superb last season, good few seem to have forgotten that. His performances last season were better than any central defender at Villa Park since Paul McGrath. Yes better than Southgate, Alpay (who was class for a year), Mellberg, Laursen etc A bit unlucky to lose out to Collins who imo has been worse than him this season. Hopefully the stint on the bench will have given him a good kick up the arse, the conditioning he came back from pre season with was unacceptable, knee problem or not.
Yes it is the NOTW but probably a hint of truth in it. Rows are part and parcel of the game. I look forward to him getting back into the side and proving his many doubters on here wrong.
-
Dunne was superb last season, good few seem to have forgotten that. His performances last season were better than any central defender at Villa Park since Paul McGrath. Yes better than Southgate, Alpay (who was class for a year), Mellberg, Laursen etc A bit unlucky to lose out to Collins who imo has been worse than him this season. Hopefully the stint on the bench will have given him a good kick up the arse, the conditioning he came back from pre season with was unacceptable, knee problem or not.
Yes it is the NOTW but probably a hint of truth in it. Rows are part and parcel of the game. I look forward to him getting back into the side and proving his many doubters on here wrong.
Dunne was good last year, but not in the class you've put him in there. And in the case of Southgate, Mellberg and Ehiogu (you missed him) they were quality over much longer periods.
-
Dunne was superb last season, good few seem to have forgotten that. His performances last season were better than any central defender at Villa Park since Paul McGrath. Yes better than Southgate, Alpay (who was class for a year), Mellberg, Laursen etc A bit unlucky to lose out to Collins who imo has been worse than him this season. Hopefully the stint on the bench will have given him a good kick up the arse, the conditioning he came back from pre season with was unacceptable, knee problem or not.
Yes it is the NOTW but probably a hint of truth in it. Rows are part and parcel of the game. I look forward to him getting back into the side and proving his many doubters on here wrong.
Can't agree with that. I was never a big Mellberg fan, but he pisses all over Dunne, and the latter isn't fit to lace Laursen's boots. Southgate was better than the lot of them put together.
-
if it ever becomes player vs managr, for the good of the club the manager has to win
-
Check our goals conceded column last year as opposed to any other season in the last 10 years and get back to me. Mellberg was pretty ordinary. Laursen was superb in the air but couldnt turn and spent far too much time on the ground. Ugo was a solid defender for us, Southgate a classier player but Id argue Dunne last season was more effective than any of them and the stats back it up.
-
Wasn't it Dunne who was moaning at the training methods of Bibbs and Cones last year?
-
Maybe Man City is good at spotting bad apples now. Richard Dunne need a good kick in the backside and a diet. He is capable player who would do the job but he doesn't look after himself or sort himself out. If Richard is fit and in shape we would be in top 6
-
Dunne was superb last season, good few seem to have forgotten that. His performances last season were better than any central defender at Villa Park since Paul McGrath. Yes better than Southgate, Alpay (who was class for a year), Mellberg, Laursen etc A bit unlucky to lose out to Collins who imo has been worse than him this season. Hopefully the stint on the bench will have given him a good kick up the arse, the conditioning he came back from pre season with was unacceptable, knee problem or not.
Yes it is the NOTW but probably a hint of truth in it. Rows are part and parcel of the game. I look forward to him getting back into the side and proving his many doubters on here wrong.
He was very good last season, that's for sure, although hardly perfect and definitely not in the same class as some of the players you've named there.
Also, being good last season is no good to us now! He looks like he's given up, to be honest. His weight and performances this season have been awful, really terrible.
It's pure speculation on my part, but I suspect he was very much an MON man, and with him gone, so has Dunne's motivation.
-
Houllier lost the support of fans last Monday
Strange. I don't remember being asked.
-
Check our goals conceded column last year as opposed to any other season in the last 10 years and get back to me. Mellberg was pretty ordinary. Laursen was superb in the air but couldnt turn and spent far too much time on the ground. Ugo was a solid defender for us, Southgate a classier player but Id argue Dunne last season was more effective than any of them and the stats back it up.
The stats certainly don't back up the fact that Dunne was better than Southgate or Ehiogu. Both played a large part in our most successful team in Premier League history under Brian Little in the mid 90s. Both players were much better than Dunne, over a much longer period of time.
-
I think we all calm down about GH now
-
Wasn't it Dunne who was moaning at the training methods of Bibbs and Cones last year?
From the look of him, any sort of training whatsoever is anathema to him. It interrupts his pastie eating time.
-
While I believe Dunne has been the weakest link lately I fear if he did say those things he's unfortunately right. It's not the right way to go on war with management team, but I give him a thumb up for having the courage to say that.
-
While I believe Dunne has been the weakest link lately I fear if he did say those things he's unfortunately right. It's not the right way to go on war with management team, but I give him a thumb up for having the courage to say that.
Do you mean if he said those things Houlliers training is worse than Mons, and by worse I mean more old fashioned ?
-
If they had a bust up i don't believe it was anything like the NOTW are making out, simply because he was on the bench. Whatever the rights or wrongs on what he was supposed to have said, no manager could keep Dunne in the squad after slagging off his methods and staff.
-
There's probably an element of truth, because lets face it, tactically we don't look very well organised. Granted injuries don't help. And some players don't seem to be putting in nearly the same level of effort, determination and concentration as they did under Martin O Neill. So I can see why a story like this breaks. True, false, or a mixture? Who knows.
As for Dunne, he's been woeful and needs to worry about his own game. If he fancies himself as a captain, and a leader in the ranks, then he needs to start leading by example, and he's certainly not doing that this season.
Houllier has a lot of sorting out to do. The worry is that he gets to put his stamp on things and buy and sell to shape the squad as he sees fit, but we don't make any headway. That's how I suspect things will turn out. To be honest, he'll get nowhere near achieving what O Neill did before he eventually moves, or is moved, on. I'd put my nuts on that.
But yeah, no matter who is running the club come next summer. I'd rather we didn't have Dunne, Ireland and Carew on the books still. There's a few others that need to pull their finger out too, but we could do with out the bad apples.
-
Just doesn't ring true to me especially "had the whole support of the squad" bit. Did they conduct a quick pole after to see if they all agreed with him or are they saying Dunne got together with the players and planned to bawl out the management in training. Sounds like wishful thinking from one player or maybe his agent........
-
Check our goals conceded column last year as opposed to any other season in the last 10 years and get back to me. Mellberg was pretty ordinary. Laursen was superb in the air but couldnt turn and spent far too much time on the ground. Ugo was a solid defender for us, Southgate a classier player but Id argue Dunne last season was more effective than any of them and the stats back it up.
Dunne has the turning circle of a HGV. Beep Beep this vehicle is reversing!!! Needs some time off to get back in shape. However Christmas can't be the easiest time to do this, what with all those mince pies, choccies etc......
-
I don't believe this for one second because of the source.
Dunne has been a total disgrace all season. Never mind comparing him to great or half decent players like Laursen, Ugo, Southgate and Olof I'd sooner have Zat Knight, Curtis Davies or even Liam Ridgewell. He has been in horrific shape from day one of this season be it under Mon, KMac or Hotlips and has been making terrible mistakes most games. For these reasons I believe that anything that keeps this clown out of the team is a force for good.
Just think about it... Why would one of the most terribly out of condition ''professional'' in the premier league be having a go about training? Look at the fucker I'd think he'd be the last player to complain about a training system being unprofessional. Even pundits and journalists have cottoned on to it and have pointed out that he was deservedly dropped.
-
Always thought Dunne a decent enough fella and a goodish centre-half but when a fat sod starts going off on one about a lack of professionalism, one really has to be looking at under-ripe fruit of the vine as source of motivation, especially when said fat sod gets paid thousands of pounds a week to eschew pies.
-
I agree with some that people have short memories. From August to March he was absolutely sensational, and definitely better than Laursen. I loved Laursen, but people have over-estimated quite how good he was. He used to get caught out positionally quite a lot, and we never had a great defensive record with him in the side.
Dunne has always had downturns in form like this. I agree it's not acceptable, but if we can kick him up the arse and get him playing like last season we'll be much better off.
-
Dunne's way off form. I would hope that Carlos now keeps his place and that Dunne will have to fight his way back or step aside for Clark, who surely is our future centre half or even captain.
-
Much as I admired Dunne's play last season I think on current form he has to be 4th choice behind Cuellar, Collins and Clarke. However a good defence does not go bad in the way this one did without their being a spark of truth in this report.
-
Maybe Man City is good at spotting bad apples now.
I wouldn't go that far, they did sign Balotelli after all. Maybe when Tevez leaves they could bring in Cassano as a replacement! I think he's without a club now.
-
Much as I admired Dunne's play last season I think on current form he has to be 4th choice behind Cuellar, Collins and Clarke. However a good defence does not go bad in the way this one did without their being a spark of truth in this report.
Then why did he have no such problem under MoN at the start of the season when he first looked so ridiculously unfit.
I also don't think that Mark Hughes and Stuart Pearce who managed him at City were brilliantly technical coaches.
-
Did we look better defensively with Carlos ? I thought so.
I thought Lichaj did a better job than Luke Young has recently as well.
If you're not performing, you shouldn't be in the team - and Dunne definitely hasn't been
-
As others have said, it's a bit of a coincidence that one of our worst players this season has a problem with the management.
I don't think it's entirely out of the question that they were perhaps working on things in training to counteract his lack of mobility or somehow made it clear that his performances to date were unacceptable. He got the huff, stormed off and dished out a verbal spray.
He is one of the more senior players in the side as well so if he asked some of the younger players are they with him, I'm sure they'd have agreed.
Either way, we'll see by the next set of performances whether GH has 'lost the dressing room' and all that bobbins. But our chances of actually winning football matches have probably increased tenfold with Podge benched. However we've arrived at that scenario, if that's the end result it can only be a positive.
-
Dunne was superb last season, good few seem to have forgotten that. His performances last season were better than any central defender at Villa Park since Paul McGrath. Yes better than Southgate, Alpay (who was class for a year), Mellberg, Laursen etc A bit unlucky to lose out to Collins who imo has been worse than him this season. Hopefully the stint on the bench will have given him a good kick up the arse, the conditioning he came back from pre season with was unacceptable, knee problem or not.
Yes it is the NOTW but probably a hint of truth in it. Rows are part and parcel of the game. I look forward to him getting back into the side and proving his many doubters on here wrong.
I think our change in formation has now exposed him for being just an average defender, and his fitness level or lack of, makes it even harder for him to make a positive impact on the team. Last season, playing counter attack, we defended with more bodies, deeper, and the objective was almost to block and clear. This year in a more open formation, the players have been asked to be far more mobile, and Dunne just doesn't cut it I'm afraid. Add to that, if you're not in shape, you're going to make mental errors too which we've seen him make several times.
Whether the story is fact or mostly fiction with a hint of fact, we won't miss him if he moves on. Along with one or two others his style of play represents the old system, and I think that GH is looking for different players going forward.
-
I agree with some that people have short memories. From August to March he was absolutely sensational, and definitely better than Laursen. I loved Laursen, but people have over-estimated quite how good he was. He used to get caught out positionally quite a lot, and we never had a great defensive record with him in the side.
Dunne has always had downturns in form like this. I agree it's not acceptable, but if we can kick him up the arse and get him playing like last season we'll be much better off.
A downturn in form is one thing, but look at the size of him, he's quite clearly very out of shape.
He's also the prime culprit in the group of experienced players who have let us down badly this season. I appreciate he was very good last season, but that's been and gone, we need him to perform for more than one year. For a footballer to return from the summer break as clearly overweight as he was is nothing short of a disgrace. For him to still be overweight four months later is not on.
His calorific intake must be enormous to train and still be that size. I don't know how he manages it.
-
His calorific intake must be enormous to train and still be that size. I don't know how he manages it.
If its anything like his time socialising here in Formby when he played at Everton it involves lots of black liquid, favoured, I believe in the land of his birth ;)
-
Brad Freidel is one of the summarisers on Radio 5 today, and he was asked about the alleged bust up. His diplomatic response was that he wasn't aware of anything, didn't see anything etc. It's also Stephen Warnock's birthday today apparently, and Friedel didn't know that but said something about seeing him later on tonight.
-
I do think Dunne needs to look at himself. If he can get himself back into shape and put in performances like the majority of last season, he can be a great asset. That being said Carlos deserves to be in the team and was excellent yesterday.
-
I agree with some that people have short memories. From August to March he was absolutely sensational, and definitely better than Laursen. I loved Laursen, but people have over-estimated quite how good he was. He used to get caught out positionally quite a lot, and we never had a great defensive record with him in the side.
Dunne has always had downturns in form like this. I agree it's not acceptable, but if we can kick him up the arse and get him playing like last season we'll be much better off.
I don't think it's short memories that's the issue.
Most would acknowledge that he was outstanding for us last year, but how long can you trade on past reputation?
I think even someone as venerated as McGrath would have struggled to hold down a place in the side if he'd shown the kind of form Dunne has consistently served up since August -regardless of what had gone before.
One decent season doesn't entitle you to come into pre season, coast, eat your way into oblivion and stay in the team.
As Lee B said earlier, I also have concerns that he never really wanted to be here.
Press: Why did you leave Manchester City?
Dunne: "Because they sold me."
He was fired up to stay in shape last summer as he wanted to be a part of their new era. Unfortunately that wasn't enough as Hughes and Cook deemed him surplus to requirements. We reaped the benefit initially of a player in good shape and motivated to prove his old club wrong.
Now the fire's gone and he's content enough just to drift.
-
I wonder if his thought of "dated" training sessions means more running and fitness and that's what Dunne doesn't like..
My understanding was that GH wanted us to play more possession football. To do that you have to pass and move, continually be on the move, make yourself available...therefore we needed to be fitter as a squad....hence the fitness coach and extra sessions. Fitness is not exactly a good old fashioned centre half's ideal...
If there is any truth in it then Dunne needs to (a) get fit and shed a few (b) start performing to last seasons standard (c) go and get some coaches badges before spouting off what he thinks is dated and doesn't suit. You're a professional athlete paid massive sums of money a week. Look after yourself for fecks sake...
-
I'm sorry but Laursen is twice the player Dunne has ever been.
Dunne was good last season with a CB playing rightback for cover.
Dunne made a few mistakes last year and got caught out a few times positionally.
And just a point, how come we should 'remember' Dunne's good performances when his performances have been disgraceful but we don't give Carew the same respect?
Just a thought as they have been equally shite this season.
-
Would I be correct in assuming it is still a filthy cheap sunday rag,
It's not cheap anymore!
-
Interesting..
Unfortunately I wasn’t at the game yesterday, but BBC 5Live presenter was saying this morning that we scored our first goal Collins went over to McAllister and had a real go at him.
Unsubstantiated so…. Anyone else see this? What’s going on?
This happened right in front of me (I sit behind the dugouts). Collins did not have a "right go" at G-Mac. However, he was quite animated and seemed to be forthrightly putting across his point.
This was not long after Collins and Warnock had been turned inside out by the Baggies' winger, so I guess he was asking for more defensive help from Stewie.
I agree with this. I was looking right at them whlist the othere players celebrated the goal. It was nothing other than Collins taking water and asking and being given instrucions.
-
I seem to remember Dunne starting to decline towards the end of last season. He was a decent player then, but to put him in the Southgate/Mellberg/Larsen class is just not on. Shaun Teale, maybe.
-
Dont think I have looked at a copy of the News of the World in quite a while.
Would I be correct in assuming it is still a filthy cheap sunday rag, serving up a diet of sensationalised non news and celebrity garbage for the ill educated and great unwashed of this country ? With their cheap uninformed politically dodgy views which pander to certain peoples intolerant uninformed bigotted and often racist outlook on life. Or for those who are incapable of forming any opinion (even a crap opinion) need to have the vacumn that leaves in their air head to be filled with stories about Katie & Peter or some bloody nonentity thats appeared from bloody nowhere on a progarmme like bloody X Factor or bloody Big Brother( oh god thank heavens at least thats bloody finished!) or whatever other stupid ridiculous bloody reality programme the TV people decide to serve up next to help fill all the bloody air time available from having 300 different bloody channels . Yes the News of the bloody World, crap rubbish news about a world of alco pop swigging ecstasy pill popping ill mannered loud brash celebrity wannabees who think the world owes them a living and they want it all and they want it all right now even though they havent got two brains cells between them to rub together to come up with one really good reason why they have ever done a single worthwhile thing in their empty bloody vacuous sad lives that would justify them having so much as the right to deserve the money in their pockets to as much as be able to buy a copy of the News of the bloody World in the first place.
No. Nasty little paper, Ive never liked it. And ive never believed a word its said either
Yes.
By the way, is your name 'Mr.Smoketoomuch' (Copyright: Eric Idle/Python)
-
I wonder if his thought of "dated" training sessions means more running and fitness and that's what Dunne doesn't like..
My understanding was that GH wanted us to play more possession football. To do that you have to pass and move, continually be on the move, make yourself available...therefore we needed to be fitter as a squad....hence the fitness coach and extra sessions. Fitness is not exactly a good old fashioned centre half's ideal...
If there is any truth in it then Dunne needs to (a) get fit and shed a few (b) start performing to last seasons standard (c) go and get some coaches badges before spouting off what he thinks is dated and doesn't suit. You're a professional athlete paid massive sums of money a week. Look after yourself for fecks sake...
For me Barcelona is the model for any team. Those players work harder than any I've seen in not only retaining the ball, but when they don't have it, working their collective bollocks off to get it back. If it isn't too big an ask for those "real" football superstars then it should be perfectly acceptable for everyone else.
-
I seem to remember Dunne starting to decline towards the end of last season. He was a decent player then, but to put him in the Southgate/Mellberg/Larsen class is just not on. Shaun Teale, maybe.
That's a bit harsh.
Shaun Teale never once gave me reason to question his commitment and professionalism.
-
I said after the Liverpool match that it was necessary for GH to upset a few people and break things in order to rebuild the team/squad with a better base. At the time I doubted he had the balls to do it.
I hope this is the aftermath of that inquest and not - as the NOTW report - a player revolt.
-
Houllier has upped the training including afternmon sessions and I suspect many players maybe prefer getting away at 11 30 and having the day to themselves- good on houllier in that respect and the mirror are reporting the players held a meeting about houllier on wdnesday with the manager not allowed to attend.
Dunne , Ireland Carew and sidwell can all go in 3 weeks time for all I care- they are not good enough and should be made to train with the kids till they depart- the manager must keep control and I believe he will weed out the players he sees as not up to it!
-
I wonder how much time Dunne has been spending with fellow Irishman, Stephen Ireland? Imagine having your ear bent continuously by Mr Miseryarse, add to that your own poor form, combined with a defence that were superb last season and now look a shambles. One thing that can't be denied is how poor our defence has been this season. You can't blame everything on Dunne or our injury problems.
Either way, there will only be one winner in this situation.
-
I seem to remember Dunne starting to decline towards the end of last season. He was a decent player then, but to put him in the Southgate/Mellberg/Larsen class is just not on. Shaun Teale, maybe.
That's a bit harsh.
Shaun Teale never once gave me reason to question his commitment and professionalism.
Teale was also a player for the big occasion, like the 94 league cup semi and final.
-
I wonder how much time Dunne has been spending with fellow Irishman, Stephen Ireland? Imagine having your ear bent continuously by Mr Miseryarse, add to that your own poor form, combined with a defence that were superb last season and now look a shambles. One thing that can't be denied is how poor our defence has been this season. You can't blame everything on Dunne or our injury problems.
Either way, there will only be one winner in this situation.
It's hard not to think that Ireland's apparently "sucky" behaviour could be related to Dunne's outburst. It looks like Dunne and Ireland are forcing Houllier to get rid of them in January. I get the feeling that Dunne is going through some personal problems - alcohol?
-
I seem to remember Dunne starting to decline towards the end of last season. He was a decent player then, but to put him in the Southgate/Mellberg/Larsen class is just not on. Shaun Teale, maybe.
That's a bit harsh.
Shaun Teale never once gave me reason to question his commitment and professionalism.
Teale was also a player for the big occasion, like the 94 league cup semi and final.
Where as Dunne is more the player for the Big Mac.
-
"Whatever the truth of this, there is clearly something wrong with the atmosphere among the players. There seems a complete lack of togetherness and spirit - a number of times this season goals have been celebrated by 3 or 4 players only and I just think the body language is really poor."
I only saw the match on a link but after Heskey's goal it appeared that he stood with arms outstretched and a concerned look on his face, did no-one rush to congratulate him?
-
Carlos.
-
No heskey was surprised because no one knew he scored, they all thought it was Collins and were celebrating with him.
-
No heskey was surprised because no one knew he scored, they all thought it was Collins and were celebrating with him.
I agree with this, from were I Was I had no idea who scored, at first I thought it was Collins, then I thought it was an own goal, the players definately thought it was Collins as you could tell by their reactions
-
Thanks Gibbo, Emile lived near to me when I was in the uk, always had a joke with him as he played for the Blose at the time, hes a nice bloke.
-
Most likely the story's an exaggeration but not a complete fabrication. I don't think we will see many transfers in January, but I won't be surprised if both Dunne and Ireland are gone come next August. And that it will be some time before we sign a new City reject.
-
I think we will see at least 3 players arrive in January and several more in the summer- also expect to see quite a few of o neills regulars on their bike.
-
I agree with some that people have short memories. From August to March he was absolutely sensational, and definitely better than Laursen. I loved Laursen, but people have over-estimated quite how good he was. He used to get caught out positionally quite a lot, and we never had a great defensive record with him in the side.
Dunne has always had downturns in form like this. I agree it's not acceptable, but if we can kick him up the arse and get him playing like last season we'll be much better off.
sorry matt but i dont agree at all with your thoughts on laursen. And i honestly dont think im staring back with misty eyes. I always felt sure we would get a result when i saw his name on the team sheet, with the exception of the lord himself i think laursen was the best reader of the game in CB ive seen down the park, possibly only rivaled by southgate....
-
Hopefully Dunne finds it so hard to work with Houllier he'll be ready to take a wage cut when he's set to leave.
As there is no way he'll get anywhere near what he's earning elsewhere.
-
Dont think I have looked at a copy of the News of the World in quite a while.
Would I be correct in assuming it is still a filthy cheap sunday rag, serving up a diet of sensationalised non news and celebrity garbage for the ill educated and great unwashed of this country ? With their cheap uninformed politically dodgy views which pander to certain peoples intolerant uninformed bigotted and often racist outlook on life. Or for those who are incapable of forming any opinion (even a crap opinion) need to have the vacumn that leaves in their air head to be filled with stories about Katie & Peter or some bloody nonentity thats appeared from bloody nowhere on a progarmme like bloody X Factor or bloody Big Brother( oh god thank heavens at least thats bloody finished!) or whatever other stupid ridiculous bloody reality programme the TV people decide to serve up next to help fill all the bloody air time available from having 300 different bloody channels . Yes the News of the bloody World, crap rubbish news about a world of alco pop swigging ecstasy pill popping ill mannered loud brash celebrity wannabees who think the world owes them a living and they want it all and they want it all right now even though they havent got two brains cells between them to rub together to come up with one really good reason why they have ever done a single worthwhile thing in their empty bloody vacuous sad lives that would justify them having so much as the right to deserve the money in their pockets to as much as be able to buy a copy of the News of the bloody World in the first place.
No. Nasty little paper, Ive never liked it. And ive never believed a word its said either
Superb!
-
Isn't this how Dunne was at Man C for however many years? Great at times, overweight with a bad attitude on other occasions? Perhaps its the reason Man C got rid, despite his efforts at the end of his time with them when he was back to his best, they had probably seen it all before.
If we are going to develop young players, they don't need a character like him around them, poisoning their attitude.
I reacon he'll be gone.
-
Dunne has never been fit to lace laursen's boot's and he never will
-
...especially when said fat sod gets paid thousands of pounds a week to eschew pies.
Quoted for play-on words of the highest order.
-
Laursen was far better than Dunne.
-
Think we are being very harsh with Dunne. Yes he is off form but not that long ago we were saying he was a revelation. A couple of weeks of hard training and better focus and he could return to the excellent player he was ...........
-
He should be in shape now, half way through the season and he's that big is taking the piss. He was great last season. Loss of form I understand but being fat when your a professional football player is wrong.
Imagine if you was in the West End and watching Swan Lake and one of them main characters came out on stage out of position, slipping over and having bits of wobbly fat hanging out their tutu, well it would not be on would it?
-
Richard Dunne can go for all i'm bothered. He was decent last season when he had something to prove. This season he's been 'Billy big bollocks' - overweight and underperforming. Ship up or ship out
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
-
He should be in shape now, half way through the season and he's that big is taking the piss. He was great last season. Loss of form I understand but being fat when your a professional football player is wrong.
Imagine if you was in the West End and watching Swan Lake and one of them main characters came out on stage out of position, slipping over and having bits of wobbly fat hanging out their tutu, well it would not be on would it?
Isn't he meant to be carrying an injury? Couldn't this have affected his form and weight? If this is the case it could be argued that he has been putting his body on the line when we have been short at the back.
I find it hard to accept that someone who has been a good and reasonably consistent player in the past can experience such an major drop in form. He's either injured and/or not willing to perfom for the new management team. I would be concerned if it is the latter, as GH seems to have a habit of needlessly pissing people off, including us fans.
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
Evening Richard, good to see that you can keep your fingers out of the the biscuit barrel long enough to type that post.
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
Top class I think not!. McGrath, Cannavaro, Nesta, Baresi, Vidic ...they are/were top class.
Did that injury lead Dunne to start comfort eating?
-
Well the bottom line is that he has been terrible this season. Wheather its down to injury,weight ( considerable), billy big bollocks syndrome. boozing or not seeing eye with the management I dont care. He shouldnt be playing at the moment and thank god he was dropped yesterday.
Hopefully he will have a few weeks on the sideline to sort his shit out because he was superb for most of last season . We can't carry passengers.
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
Sorry mate, we have had Cuellar and Davies (till recently) to replace him.
He has been playing terrible all season, I have less respect for someone who will play through injury just too keep his place in the team, that's a lack of respect to us fans because he has clearly not been 100% be it injury or lazyiness.
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
I think you must have a very very different definition of 'top class' to me.....Beckenbauer was 'top class' just to give you some idea....
-
Dunne is a top class defender when on form. As a centre half in the modern game? I'm not so sure.
Great at last ditch defending and getting his body on the line, but he doesn't do enough for me to be a centre back for an aspiring top club.
Keeping the ball is the greatest form of defence, we've not enough players capable of doing it.
-
Out of sorts player rants at new coach, blames him for everything. Never happens.
Hopefully this is the start of Phase 2. Tha G-Dogg has worked out who the wrong-uns are and feeds them to his cat
Why can't your news reports by of this ilk?
-
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2pozfpu.jpg)
-
May I point out that Richard Dunne is a top class centreback. Also he has been playing since just before the humiliating 7 - 1 Chelsea game last season with injury. Yes he has been off form this season but, he has played on when he shouldn't have because we have had no one to replace him with. The man needs probably two or three months to get over his injury, it might even be longer than that if he needs an operation in the end.
How soon people forget, RD was immense for us last season, even after the Chelsea game.
Get over yourselves people, RD has been playing and training in football for probably twenty years and, if, I say if, he has criticised the training regime at VP as being out of date, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is.
If he had an injury from the time you say, he had the summer to get over it or have an operation. Why hasn't he.
-
He has been poor this season. Very. Very good last season.
He was overweight but I can't help but think it's a little over exagerated. He doesn't look as overweight to me as some people are making out.
-
He has been poor this season. Very. Very good last season.
He was overweight but I can't help but think it's a little over exagerated. He doesn't look as overweight to me as some people are making out.
he certainly does not look in the same shape as he was last season, i think there maybe refuelling issues
-
I think it has been exagerated a little but you only have to look into what kind of training a striker will put into his game to realise that, to counter that threat, you have to train harder. Can you imagine, for example, what an extra few kilo's will do to an olympic sprinter? It'd kill any aspirations for medal contention. So why would Dunne think he could contend with modern-day strikers carrying some extra padding...even if it's fairly minimal?
I also suspect that there's been a shift in defensive thinking from Houllier that doesn't necessarily suit Dunne. Have a look at Carlos' game against the Baggies and you'll see that he tends to shift toward the ball to cut the threat out before it becomes a threat. The Dunne/Collins method seems to be to sit back and try to deal with the threat when it's 'do or die' time and every time Dunne has pushed forward to kill the threat early, he's been found wanting. Again, that's just my theory and could be bollocks.
Still, it all seems to me that it's a case of a bloke who's out of form, overweight and under fire from the fans (and, to be a fair to him, lacking true defensive bite from the midfield) trying to find someone else to blame.
We'll no doubt find out if the defensive tactics that are in place are up to scratch or not over the next few weeks as we come up against far greater tests than West Brom.
-
Yesterday, there were several occasions where Cuellar made interceptions / tackles that I found myself thinking "Dunne wouldn't have managed that"
The last player I used to get that about was Friedel, shortly after he joined, where I'd find myself frequently saying "Carson wouldn't have got to that"
-
i think Troys analisys is spot on, the defender allways has the advantage, because he is generally looking in the same direction that he wants the ball to go, but when you are a split second off the pace as a defender you are in trouble your advantage is lost, the natural reaction is to retreat, Dunne is in that zone right now he is playing defensively, good defenders are offensive in terms of winning the ball
-
I think it has been exagerated a little but you only have to look into what kind of training a striker will put into his game to realise that, to counter that threat, you have to train harder. Can you imagine, for example, what an extra few kilo's will do to an olympic sprinter? It'd kill any aspirations for medal contention. So why would Dunne think he could contend with modern-day strikers carrying some extra padding...even if it's fairly minimal?
I also suspect that there's been a shift in defensive thinking from Houllier that doesn't necessarily suit Dunne. Have a look at Carlos' game against the Baggies and you'll see that he tends to shift toward the ball to cut the threat out before it becomes a threat. The Dunne/Collins method seems to be to sit back and try to deal with the threat when it's 'do or die' time and every time Dunne has pushed forward to kill the threat early, he's been found wanting. Again, that's just my theory and could be bollocks.
Still, it all seems to me that it's a case of a bloke who's out of form, overweight and under fire from the fans (and, to be a fair to him, lacking true defensive bite from the midfield) trying to find someone else to blame.
We'll no doubt find out if the defensive tactics that are in place are up to scratch or not over the next few weeks as we come up against far greater tests than West Brom.
Of course in the case of Dunne it's not fairly minimal extra padding either. He looks out of shape and plays like it too. It affects every part of a players performance, his fitness.
Think of even recent occasions when he's been turned inside out by some pretty mediocre players, misjudged challenges and misplaced headers.
I reckon Houllier has doubts about Cuellar too, mainly centred on his distribution. We're trying to work the ball out from the back more and Dunne (when fit and on form) and particularly Collins have decent distribution. Not world class by any means, but Dunne can (or could) control a ball and play it simple (or basically wouldn't panic) and Colllins is capable of pretty decent medium> longterm passing. Both have declined badly this season but Dunne moreso than anyone else.
Houllier might now reason that even if Cuellar is suspect with the ball at his feet and even if he is more than capable of dropping the odd clanger himself, he's less error prone than Dunne at the moment.
That combined with this alleged spat on Friday will hopefully see Carlos stay in the side for the foreseeable.
Our defence as a unit has looked suspect for large chunks of the campaign, it hasn't just been Dunne. But it's noticeable that Collins and even Warnock looked far better and more composed yesterday. Sometimes one adjustment rather than wholesale changes can make all the difference.
-
Was it a coincidence that Collins looked more composed and comfortable yesterday alongside Cuellar? I think not, Collins hasn't been great himself but centre-backs hunt as a pair usually and if one of the pair is woefully off form it will inevitably drag the other one down with him.
-
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Richard-Dunne-facing-the-axe-from-Aston-Villa-after-his-training-ground-bust-up-article650269.html
Interesting bit in The Mirror. Ok it is The Mirror but if true then well done GH I say.
-
i also think that Friedel has looked indecisive, we have conceded quite a few goals this season that Friedel could have should have prevented, when it starts going wrong in defence it is contageous. there is allways a leader in defence, it can be Goalkeeper centre half or even fullback, when it starts to go wrong you have to change the leadership. Houlier at last did this and dropped Dunne
-
No coincidence, Dave. Look at Dunne's own goal a few weeks back when he 'seemed' to be distracted by the incoming Collins. They just tend to go for the same type of ball, run into the same sort of position, read the game the same. I think it worked OK last season as the midfield slowed any attack right down. At the moment, because of injuries and because Houllier will prefer a more 'cultured' midfielder, it means that defenders will have to a lot more thinking and come to the ball a lot earlier. Not, I suspect, Dunne's game. And if you commit and fuck it up, it's hard to recover....especially if your carrying what amounts to a sack of spuds.
-
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Richard-Dunne-facing-the-axe-from-Aston-Villa-after-his-training-ground-bust-up-article650269.html
Interesting bit in The Mirror. Ok it is The Mirror but if true then well done GH I say.
these storys tend to emegre when things -results are not going well, it could be lazy journalism and the mirror reonstituting the NOTW story but i doubt there is smoke without fire.
-
This time next week all these stories will be about Everton.
-
Collins is a long way from the complete Centre Half, give him balls to attack and he will attack them, his distribution is generally poor and he gets turned too easily
-
This time next week all these stories will be about Everton.
yep and they could still be about us
-
Collins is a long way from the complete Centre Half, give him balls to attack and he will attack them, his distribution is generally poor and he gets turned too easily
Big time in the main I thought Collins was poor at the weekend. He started really poorly. He improved in the second half but was stuck on the ground for their equaliser. Cuellar had a good game and was generally assured covering behind Lichaj really well. But he also made a terrible mistake near the end that they could have scored from. Collins tfor me has been worse than Dunne this season and doesnt look fully fit either.
I've dug out some stats about our goals conceded historically. Last year's total 39 was the lowest since 35 was conceded back in 99/00. 07/08 was the only full season that Martin Laursen played for Villa really with 38 appearances. People remember the 6 goals he scored but care to forget the 51 that were conceded that year. That was with a far better left back in Bouma and Mellberg at right back if memory serves correct. Curtis davies/Knight as partners in defence, Petrov, Reo Coker and Barry in midfield so it wasnt all attacking players. Far from it but we conceded a lot.
To be fair I think from April on last season that Dunne was carrying an injury and badly needed to be rested. Didnt he have to come off in one game he was so knackered. That injury seem to be still affecting him. The opening day really was worrying in hindsight remember Carlton Cole showing him a clean pair of heels down the line at one stage whereas Dunne last season would have demolished him. I didnt see the Newcastle game and he was diabolical against Bolton. But before Reo Coker got injured I felt he was coming back to his best, despite the og I thought he was excellent against Sunderland, Fulham. Even against Blackburn I thought he was our best player. But a stint out of the team might give him the kick up the arse he needs plus time to sort out his knee. Even still the criticism of him is well over the top, he isnt a coward like Warnock for a start, Collins has arguably been worse over the same period and the protection from midfield has been non existent. Last Saturday it was noticeable the far better application of the wide players when we didnt have the ball. Heskey in the first half aswell gave it everything. Compare that to a couple of Gabby's frankly unacceptable perforformances away to Blackburn and Liverpool where he didnt try a leg. Pretty difficult as a defender if the lone centre forward isnt trying and the likes of Bannan, Ireland, Downing, Albrighton, Young arent going to tackle or pressurise in front of them.
The thing about Dunne is he needs to be at full tilt in terms of conditioning to be at his best. I have watched him for years for Ireland and he operates best in the Trappatoni system with holding midfielders and is great at the man to man combat against physical strikers. A tricky elusive player he struggles with as does Collins so maybe that is where Cuellar could come into the reckoning. If we want to go down a different route tactically then sure he is expendable espeically at his age as I dont think he will have a long career at the top level due to his honeymonster days at Everton and Man City. But his performances at Villa last season deserve a huge level of respect and as the stats prove were better than anything seen at Villa Park for 10 years. You can be sure aswell that his intentions were genuine if indeed there was a row on Friday at the training ground and since the team responded with 3 points it could be said that it was justified.
-
I have no reason to doubt Dunne was benched for the 'bust up' but the rest of that News of the World article is just complete bullshit. What pathetic, poor and lazy journalism... just awful.
I just hope Dunne wasn't just benched for his outburst, I hope there were other reasons which made Houllier bench him...
-
I've dug out some stats about our goals conceded historically. Last year's total 39 was the lowest since 35 was conceded back in 99/00. 07/08 was the only full season that Martin Laursen played for Villa really with 38 appearances. People remember the 6 goals he scored but care to forget the 51 that were conceded that year. That was with a far better left back in Bouma and Mellberg at right back if memory serves correct. Curtis davies/Knight as partners in defence, Petrov, Reo Coker and Barry in midfield so it wasnt all attacking players. Far from it but we conceded a lot.
Weren't we the second highest scorers in the Premiership that season? Considering we had the same two main strikers as in 09/10 but also more attacking midfield options in Downing and Milner augmenting Ashley Young then something clearly went wrong in attacking positions. Either that or we played a different style of play from last season. I believe the latter.
We were genuinely good to watch that season especially when we went forward last season we were less open we conceded fewer but that came at the expense of goals. That is the objective measure. I don't see why Dunne should be guaranteed a game or such high praise for six months good form. The subjective measure is in watching Martin Laursen I didn't see him looking so ridiculously unfit or making so many basic errors. If he was I'd want him dropped. If he was people wouldn't remember the towering lionheart collosus but a player who let us down badly. If God made those mistakes, if Ollie made those mistakes or if Southgate made those mistakes the knives would be out too.
I agree some people give Martin Laursen too much praise. It's a product of what he was in the kind of big and brave centre half we all want to see. No legend or all time great just a bloody good centre half. Like Olof, Southgate and Ugo. Had any of those made such basic errors we would have got the knives out for them too. Look at Curtis Davies. He had many good performances alongside Laursen in the season you cited but all we remember is the errors because he made too many stupid ones. Dunne is heading the same way unless he takes stock and works on his game and trains his bollocks off. The ship hasn't sailed yet for him. He can still leap back onto the jetty and return to being a very good centre half.
-
I've dug out some stats about our goals conceded historically. Last year's total 39 was the lowest since 35 was conceded back in 99/00. 07/08 was the only full season that Martin Laursen played for Villa really with 38 appearances. People remember the 6 goals he scored but care to forget the 51 that were conceded that year. That was with a far better left back in Bouma and Mellberg at right back if memory serves correct. Curtis davies/Knight as partners in defence, Petrov, Reo Coker and Barry in midfield so it wasnt all attacking players. Far from it but we conceded a lot.
Weren't we the second highest scorers in the Premiership that season? Considering we had the same two main strikers as in 09/10 but also more attacking midfield options in Downing and Milner augmenting Ashley Young then something clearly went wrong in attacking positions. Either that or we played a different style of play from last season. I believe the latter.
We were genuinely good to watch that season especially when we went forward last season we were less open we conceded fewer but that came at the expense of goals. That is the objective measure. I don't see why Dunne should be guaranteed a game or such high praise for six months good form. The subjective measure is in watching Martin Laursen I didn't see him looking so ridiculously unfit or making so many basic errors. If he was I'd want him dropped. If he was people wouldn't remember the towering lionheart collosus but a player who let us down badly. If God made those mistakes, if Ollie made those mistakes or if Southgate made those mistakes the knives would be out too.
I agree some people give Martin Laursen too much praise. It's a product of what he was in the kind of big and brave centre half we all want to see. No legend or all time great just a bloody good centre half. Like Olof, Southgate and Ugo. Had any of those made such basic errors we would have got the knives out for them too. Look at Curtis Davies. He had many good performances alongside Laursen in the season you cited but all we remember is the errors because he made too many stupid ones. Dunne is heading the same way unless he takes stock and works on his game and trains his bollocks off. The ship hasn't sailed yet for him. He can still leap back onto the jetty and return to being a very good centre half.
Yeah we were great to watch that season alright. 71 goals or something even though Carew as top scorer only with 13 or something. I think Gareth Barry was superb that season in a creative sense if memory serves correct. Ashley Young too was a bit of an unknown then and the crossing game produced a lot of goals. Cant remember who was on the right side of midfield that season for the life of me. Our full backs were arguably more defensive then than last season. The addition of Milner to the centre made us stronger defensively than with Barry but I felt we were a bit stale in an attacking sense for much of the campaign. Downing struggled really and teams easily double marked Ashley Young as both were slaves to the touchline. While Carew in particular and Gabby had their hot streaks in front of goal, Emile heskey was thoroughly diabolical when called upon last season which needs to be taken into account.
Interesting discussion this but we seem to have gone way off topic ;D. Either way I think it is a bit too simplistic to suggest that fat alco Dunne is the sole problem for the amount of goals conceded this term. He needs to improve, fair enough Cuellar and Collins are getting their chance at the moment. But as he proved last season i think at his best Dunne is our best defender and I hope he will prove it when he gets a chance again as Im sure he will.
-
He will be offloaded as soon as possible.
-
I just don't believe that if this 'bust up' played out exactly like were reading then there is NO WAY Dunne would have even been in the squad on Saturday!
I think 'he' was dropped on form and spat his dummy out
-
Get rid and get somebody else in to give us our full quota of centre backs
Cuellar, Collins, Clark, A N Other
-
Get rid and get somebody else in to give us our full quota of centre backs
Cuellar, Collins, Clark, A N Other
Lescott please.
He can come up with the odd goal as well.
Not THAT odd.........
-
Looks like he's had his day, if he carries on lie this ship him out to West Brom or Boro...
-
Are we not being a bit harsh on Dunne? It was not long ago that he was our best player, or one of our best at least. If somebody did give Houllier a telling off on the training field it would long overdue. That guy is O'Leary Mk2 and he is going to drag us back down to the dark ages.
-
I don't know whether it's true or not.
However, one thing that has struck me is; If this new training regime is so brutal as it is claimed then why the fcuk does Dunne atill look such a fat fcuker?
-
The other thing that strikes me is, precisely what qualifications does McAllister have for being a Premier League Coach?
-
Interesting how Irish posters are more inclined to stick up for Dunne. As they're entitled to do, of course.
-
Interesting post from Gastonvilla on VT. He knows Stephen ireland I think, so I suppose a pinch of salt is required:
Ok, this is what I have been told happened. There's a likelihood that this is only one side of the story, of course, but this is what I've been told.
Following the Liverpool "incidents", GH met with RL and PF. Following that meeting, the management asked Dunne, as acting captain, to hold a squad meeting. Concerns had been raised about squad morale and their genuine attitude (to each other and to the coaching/management staff) so it was an opportunity to air all grievances. Dunne was asked to report back to GH/GMac after that meeting. Dunne asked why he, and not NRC (in the absence of Petrov), was doing the "dirty work" but the response wasn't clear to me.
After the squad meeting, GH was told by Dunne about concerns the squad had. Specifically, there were concerns about training methods:
- Lack of set-piece training, both attacking and defending.
- Too much emphasis on fitness elements of training, to the detriment of technical training.
- Conflicting instructions from reserve training and first team training, in terms of set piece defending.
Also concerns were raised about the attitude of certain players towards work-rate. I'm not mentioning specific names as they are not here to defend themselves. Apparently, the squad meeting got a bit heated.
GH responded by saying he appreciated the feedback and would put things right, specifically the set-piece defending.
Training sessions subsequent to the meeting, I don't know which days this happened on, were no different. Exasperation was expressed by more than one person about the set-pieces. Coaching staff dismissed this and told players to continue fitness drills. NRC was asked by players to approach coaching staff about this but allegedly refused. Dunne was then asked and agreed.
Dunne was told by coaching staff it was Petrov/NRC who should be talking on behalf of the players. At this point, it became very heated between GH and Dunne. What exactly happened or was said is unclear, but along the lines of "You're happy for me to do your dirty work but won't listen to what you're told because it doesn't suit you to hear it. Maybe you'd listen if one of your golden boys tells you, but don't ask me to do it again".
Dunne, Houllier, MacAllister and possibly Petrov met on Friday afternoon. Dunne apologised for his outburst and was told he would not be playing on Saturday. There's the possibility that Dunne was fined, but I'm not sure.
So, draw your own conclusions on this.
-
Interesting.
I'm surprised Dunne is so anti-fitness training when it's clear he more than any one else needs it most. He should be staying behind to do extra too.
-
The conclusions are that it is not a happy ship. But who is going to walk the plank? You decide......
-
It's never good when relationships between manager and players get like that, and it almost always ends one way.
Hopefully there's no truth in it, though, although it does all seem quite detailed which makes me think maybe there is some truth in it.
Odd, though, I always thought Houllier was one of those managers who formed strong bonds with players - witness recent Carragher love-in.
-
Sounds about right to me as well.
Houllier wants to get the players vaguely fit and not rely so much on set pieces - no shit sherlock
Do wonder why Dunne would take such umbrage to being asked in the first place though
-
I thought under MON it was just 5 a sides with not much time spent on practising set pieces in training, so it seems strange that the players are complaining now about not doing much work on it.
I would think time spent on defending set pieces would be time well spent personally.
Like others have said if all we're doing are shuttle runs then how come Dunney is not waif like.
-
We looked a hell of a lot more secure on set pieces against the Albion with Heskey back in the team, the goal aside.
-
how many goals have we conceded from set pieces this season ?
-
Sounds about right to me as well.
Houllier wants to get the players vaguely fit and not rely so much on set pieces - no shit sherlock
Do wonder why Dunne would take such umbrage to being asked in the first place though
So you don't think there's any benefit in working on defending set pieces?
It was something we very good at last season and have been hopeless this so perhaps the players have a point.
-
how many goals have we conceded from set pieces this season ?
and late goals ?? Problem with concentration or fitness ?? or both ?
-
Interesting how Irish posters are more inclined to stick up for Dunne. As they're entitled to do, of course.
Had to laugh at this, because, while you may have a point, Dunne was derided for many a year in Ireland. Perhaps it's the way he turned his career around in the right direction that he is admired so much by Irish supporters, anyway......a few points on this.
1. Dunne looks unfit, has been very poor this season, in a way he can only really look at himself.
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
3. In terms of the credibility of the story, my attitude would be there is no smoke without fire. I think Dunne had big ambitions coming to Villa, not in small part fed by wanting to outdo City. I think he may have become a bit disillusioned over the summer when we sold our best player, lost our manager and didnt sign any players. I doubt he is the only player that feels that way. As a fan I certainly feel that way.
4. The saddest thing, perhaps, is that the story makes too much sense. I've not been a massive fan of Houllier from the beginning, but was reserving judgment. Nothing he's done since he arrived has inspired me and it is really sad that the hope that was generated during the MON era is now all but gone. Mid table fodder is all we can hope for in the coming years.
-
my impression under MON was that he kept the 13 or so players he deemed worthy to pick match fit by playing them and even then there was plenty of discussion last season about half fit players being picked, not to mention the Terry comments. If GH wants to get the squad fit then thats fine by me. To me it looks like he's playing catch-up from a poor pre-season fitness regime. If we're still concentrating on fitness in a month or so then thats a different matter
-
my impression under MON was that he kept the 13 or so players he deemed worthy to pick match fit by playing them and even then there was plenty of discussion last season about half fit players being picked, not to mention the Terry comments. If GH wants to get the squad fit then thats fine by me. To me it looks like he's playing catch-up from a poor pre-season fitness regime. If we're still concentrating on fitness in a month or so then thats a different matter
Terry comments????
-
my impression under MON was that he kept the 13 or so players he deemed worthy to pick match fit by playing them and even then there was plenty of discussion last season about half fit players being picked, not to mention the Terry comments. If GH wants to get the squad fit then thats fine by me. To me it looks like he's playing catch-up from a poor pre-season fitness regime. If we're still concentrating on fitness in a month or so then thats a different matter
Terry comments????
when he said we tired towards the end of matches
-
my impression under MON was that he kept the 13 or so players he deemed worthy to pick match fit by playing them and even then there was plenty of discussion last season about half fit players being picked, not to mention the Terry comments. If GH wants to get the squad fit then thats fine by me. To me it looks like he's playing catch-up from a poor pre-season fitness regime. If we're still concentrating on fitness in a month or so then thats a different matter
Terry comments????
when he said we tired towards the end of matches
Right sorry.
Well that is what I am trying to figure out...MON and his coaches were slated on this forum towards the end of last season for their training methods. Now it seems under GH it is even worse.
I will point out that anybody commenting on the teams training is engaging in pure conjecture.
-
Houllier has been here 4 months now, and if he is concentrating on our fitness then I've not noticed a great deal of difference, other than a lot more training ground injuries.
We are still conceding late goals, which is nothing new, the needless free kicks we have conceded could be attributed to tired minds/legs.
Houllier reminds me of when my dad took over my team when I was a kid, glad he did it because we didn't have anyone else, but was pretty clueless when it came to tactics or training.
-
maybe but Dunne was carrying 10lbs of extra lard long before GH turned up. Whether it all went pear(pie) shaped during the summer or Mcdonald took his eye off the ball, there's no doubt in my mind that fitness has slipped. And it takes a long while for players to lose weight and get match fit just as its takes quite a while for players to put on as much weight as Dunne.
-
As we know, O'Neill left the majority of coaching matters to Robertson and Walford and they probably took set pieces scenarios more serious than other areas of the game such as fitness levels.
It was pretty disturbing though at the amount of games we seemed to cling on to going into the 10-15 minutes last season.
Maybe thats why some of the players are having ago now because a lot of emphasis in training is going into fitness and stamina levels.
As stated above, thats probably why NRC wouldn't speak up..he wouldn't have a problem with fitness work.
It sounds to me like those players who were MON's 'undroppable' golden boys are now the ones unhappy with the new regime.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
-
What we don't fully know is what's going on in Dunne's private life. There's talk of drink, there's talk of collapsed business deals and the loss of his fortune. This could all be impacting upon his mindset and performance as a player.
-
The key, and perhaps only worthwhile fact, is that players dont have bust ups with managers over training methods when results are going well.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
We lost Milner, who was massive, but I hardly would call it decimating.
I think it is a case of GH trying to make us into more of a "passing team" and has shifted the emphasis from what was a defensively sound unit and he is basically falling between 2 stools.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
We lost Milner, who was massive, but I hardly would call it decimating.
I think it is a case of GH trying to make us into more of a "passing team" and has shifted the emphasis from what was a defensively sound unit and he is basically falling between 2 stools.
I mean the decimation by injuries this season.
We started against Manchester United with Bannan and Hogg in the middle. And against Arsenal. These are children.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
We lost Milner, who was massive, but I hardly would call it decimating.
I think it is a case of GH trying to make us into more of a "passing team" and has shifted the emphasis from what was a defensively sound unit and he is basically falling between 2 stools.
I mean the decimation by injuries this season.
We started against Manchester United with Bannan and Hogg in the middle. And against Arsenal. These are children.
That is fair enough, but I still dont think having Petrov and NRC back is suddenly going to improve the back 4's performances. How poor we are defending set pieces this year show it's not a personnel issue but a systemic issue.
-
If MON had stayed, had the same squad we do now and we had the injury problems we've had i don't honestly think we'd be any higher. And that goes for any other manager as well. Only difference would be Ireland would be undroppable and instead of the kids we'd have Cuellar playing right-back, and various fringe players out of position in midfield
-
I do like the way Houllier actually uses the subs
-
That is fair enough, but I still dont think having Petrov and NRC back is suddenly going to improve the back 4's performances. How poor we are defending set pieces this year show it's not a personnel issue but a systemic issue.
It will stop so much pressure getting put onto the back four, though. It was a little better on Saturday as Hogg was getting stuck in far more than he has done before now, and with NRC coming back, it will get better still.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
We lost Milner, who was massive, but I hardly would call it decimating.
I think it is a case of GH trying to make us into more of a "passing team" and has shifted the emphasis from what was a defensively sound unit and he is basically falling between 2 stools.
I mean the decimation by injuries this season.
We started against Manchester United with Bannan and Hogg in the middle. And against Arsenal. These are children.
That is fair enough, but I still dont think having Petrov and NRC back is suddenly going to improve the back 4's performances. How poor we are defending set pieces this year show it's not a personnel issue but a systemic issue.
I think it's a bit of both.
Last season we had the 2 centre backs, Cuellar and either Heskey or Carew to deal with set pieces. This year it's just been Dunne and Collins in the majority of games. That's meant that sides have been more willing to just launch it into the 6 yard box and we've struggled to cope.
-
4 months? Ged has barely been around 2 and a half. If the bust up was too bad he wouldn't have been on the bench. I thought professional footballers had strict controls on diet and weekly skinfold tests. In Australia players get fined if they fail skinfolds, course most of them are on minimum wage and it hurts more.
-
If MON had stayed, had the same squad we do now and we had the injury problems we've had i don't honestly think we'd be any higher. And that goes for any other manager as well. Only difference would be Ireland would be undroppable and instead of the kids we'd have Cuellar playing right-back, and various fringe players out of position in midfield
It's an interesting point, where we would be if MON was in charge now....
I think we would be doing a good bit better as he had us defensively sound and also it's his team, players were signed to do jobs for him.
-
If you are down to bare bones then you cant alienate big (no pun intended)players. Is it coincidence that Dunny gets dropped and has a row once CC is ready to come back? And then goes straight to the papers with the story. He must be finished at VP now after this.
Fitness wise you cant lose weight through excersize without really watching your intake. You'd need to put about 6 hours a day in to shift it otherwise and thats not compatible with trying to play at full pelt on a saturday. Thats why preseason is so imporant. You get your base fitness there and just keep it topped up with short sharp sessions during the season.
-
Last season we had the 2 centre backs, Cuellar and either Heskey or Carew to deal with set pieces. This year it's just been Dunne and Collins in the majority of games. That's meant that sides have been more willing to just launch it into the 6 yard box and we've struggled to cope.
Thats a very good point Chris.
-
Rexy...when did Dunne go straight to the papers?
Chris... I see what your saying re not having likes of Cuellar, Heskey etc to helpl out on set pieces, but Dunne and Collins have been rubbish themselves from set pieces. Seems to me there is not a lot of planning/thinking going into defending the set pieces.
-
Having Carlos Cuellar in our team certainly makes us better defensively, whether that's as a centre half, right back or centre forward.
I'm more than willing to give Gerard time to put his mark on the team when the injuries clear up and he gets his hand on the cheque book, I just thought he would have stamped his mark on the team a bit more up to now. I honestly don't think we're passing the ball any more than we did previously.
-
2. For all the grumblings about MON last year i think every poster on here would have to acknowledge that we were defensively solid last year (solid is probably an understatement too). Since Houllier came in we have been a disgrace defensively and not only Dunne is to blame. It is hard to understand how Houllier has come in and overseen the demise of what was last year possibly the best defensive unit in the Premier League. Yes Dunne and other individuals have been poor, but I think when the whole defensive structure collapses you have to look at the manager.
Whilst I think Dunne has been shocking, as has Warnock, you also have to remember that the midfield has been decimated, and as a result it puts an awful lot of pressure on the defence.
It still wasn't right on Saturday - witness Heskey getting back and doing a lot of fine work defensively. I reckon he put in almost as many clearing headers in our box as Cuellar and Collins did.
We lost Milner, who was massive, but I hardly would call it decimating.
I think it is a case of GH trying to make us into more of a "passing team" and has shifted the emphasis from what was a defensively sound unit and he is basically falling between 2 stools.
I mean the decimation by injuries this season.
We started against Manchester United with Bannan and Hogg in the middle. And against Arsenal. These are children.
That is fair enough, but I still dont think having Petrov and NRC back is suddenly going to improve the back 4's performances. How poor we are defending set pieces this year show it's not a personnel issue but a systemic issue.
I think it's a bit of both.
Last season we had the 2 centre backs, Cuellar and either Heskey or Carew to deal with set pieces. This year it's just been Dunne and Collins in the majority of games. That's meant that sides have been more willing to just launch it into the 6 yard box and we've struggled to cope.
Add to that we have a vertically challenged player in the midfield, where last year we would have had Milner or Petrov, and that adds to the issue of defending set pieces.
-
Yes the midfield has been weak but many of the goals we have conceded and cost us points have been down to very poor individual errors by defenders and goalkeeper- we are only ,6 points off the top 6 and when you look at the points thrown away by stupid mistakes we would have been right up there.
We need to be able to see off games and we have awful in that respect, as soon as we get into the last 5 minutes the ball seems to be a hot potato and we go to pieces -it very nearly cost us on Saturday again.
Warnock has been atrocious this season and should not be in the team much longer, dunne very poor and Collins well below his best, and brad has looked well past his sell by date- these players have made many costly stupid mistakes and at this level you get punished.
Collins looked more assured with cuellar but I'd be tempted to leave lichaj in and switch luke to left back at Wigan, the return of reo - coker and heskey is massive !
-
Yes, seeing Bannan on the post for corners is a bit scary
-
Collins looked more assured with cuellar but I'd be tempted to leave lichaj in and switch luke to left back at Wigan, the return of reo - coker and heskey is massive !
That could be the kick up the arse that Warnock obviously needs. There's a decent player in there somewhere, but god knows what's happened to him.
-
The set piece thing, I seem to remember after Christmas we started conceding an uncharacteristically high amount of goals through them.
Wigan and Burnley scored a couple past us (both Caldwells IIRC) and Blackburn scored around 3 or 4 over 3 games against us didn't they?
Dunne's lost his motivation, Warnock wants out, Friedel's not good enough anymore and Collins at best is only ever solid.
Replace Dunne, Warnock and Friedel and we'll be all right again.
-
Yes the midfield has been weak but many of the goals we have conceded and cost us points have been down to very poor individual errors by defenders and goalkeeper- we are only ,6 points off the top 6 and when you look at the points thrown away by stupid mistakes we would have been right up there.
We need to be able to see off games and we have awful in that respect, as soon as we get into the last 5 minutes the ball seems to be a hot potato and we go to pieces -it very nearly cost us on Saturday again.
Warnock has been atrocious this season and should not be in the team much longer, dunne very poor and Collins well below his best, and brad has looked well past his sell by date- these players have made many costly stupid mistakes and at this level you get punished.
Collins looked more assured with cuellar but I'd be tempted to leave lichaj in and switch luke to left back at Wigan, the return of reo - coker and heskey is massive !
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
-
Lichaj was better on Sat than any performance L Young has put in for a while.
-
Replace Dunne, Warnock and Friedel and we'll be all right again.
Well, age dictates that Big Brad needs replacing shortly anyway and we only have one left back at the club, so that's another logical transfer need. But I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a CB. Lets give Cuellar a run there and see what happens first.
-
Clark, Cuellar and Davies have barely featured at centre half over the last 18 months, so lets see what they can do between now and the end of the season before shelling out on a centre back. I feel Dunne has probably had it, but Collins will return to form soon (Sat was much better for a start).
-
Interesting how Irish posters are more inclined to stick up for Dunne. As they're entitled to do, of course.
I never have. Didn't want the tubby lump of lard here in the first place. I think last season and this have summed Dunne up very nicely. He's always been capable of putting in some good performances, but the trouble is he is incapable of being truely consistent and always has a clanger in him just waiting to come to the fore (see Carling Cup final for details). He's constantly lacked professionalism throughout his career and never has been and never will be a top level centre half. I think he's the type of palyer that only Martin O'Neill could get the best out of and we would be well advised to try and move him on as soon as we can, so as to stll get a decent price for him.
-
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
Oh come on Chris, he's not "always out of position" and he certainly hasn't been as bad as you make out. Don't turn this into a Carlos vs Luke Young debate. I defended Carlos at right back last season but Young gives us something extra, even if he's not always on top form.
The problem is we aren't defending as a team, something we did so well last season, often for 80 minutes of the game. It's all well and good playing a more open game, not solely relying on the counter attack but our defence has suffered right across the line from the lack of support from the midfield. We need to tighten up defensively but that's the responsibility of the midfield as well as the back four. Saturday was a big improvement but there's still a long way to go before we regularly keep clean sheets.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I wonder how long it is before Houllier tries again to get Patrice Bergues to Villa Park to sort out our defence.
-
Luke young hasn't been at his best this season agreed but he would perform better at left back than the horrendous displays of warnock - ultimately we may need 2 new full backs but warnock needs replacing and only luke is available at the moment to do that!
-
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
Oh come on Chris, he's not "always out of position" and he certainly hasn't been as bad as you make out. Don't turn this into a Carlos vs Luke Young debate. I defended Carlos at right back last season but Young gives us something extra, even if he's not always on top form.
What does he give us extra? He's not a good attacking full back and he's a worse defender than Carlos.
-
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
Oh come on Chris, he's not "always out of position" and he certainly hasn't been as bad as you make out. Don't turn this into a Carlos vs Luke Young debate. I defended Carlos at right back last season but Young gives us something extra, even if he's not always on top form.
What does he give us extra? He's not a good attacking full back and he's a worse defender than Carlos.
At the risk of joining in the debate I like Carlos but he cant pass to save his life so thats one thing Luke is better at
-
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
Oh come on Chris, he's not "always out of position" and he certainly hasn't been as bad as you make out. Don't turn this into a Carlos vs Luke Young debate. I defended Carlos at right back last season but Young gives us something extra, even if he's not always on top form.
What does he give us extra? He's not a good attacking full back and he's a worse defender than Carlos.
If he's playing badly this year, he's in good company, because the entire defence has, and I agree with you, he shouldn't get off being mentioned in the roll of shame.
He's a better right back than Carlos, in my opinion, but I know we're never ever going to agree on this
-
What does he give us extra? He's not a good attacking full back and he's a worse defender than Carlos.
Well, there was the winner against Everton.
But being serious, I've always thought of Young as an 'OK' player. We probably had too high an opinion of him after being so long without a proper RB, but I personally think he's lucky a club as big as us came in for him. His performances this season need to be tempered with the knowledge of him playing in a poor defence with a weak midfield infront of him. He's not good enough to be able to compensate for that, but once we regain some solidity we'll be focusing our attentions to other areas that need improving more.
-
In Luke's favour, he cannot be criticised for not giving 100% each game and if there's a 50/50 ball he rarely shirks a challenge
-
If you watch games back it is actually surprising just how much Petrov clears out of our box from set pieces. Just a thought.
-
In hindsight perhaps we didn't have too much to moan about last season so Carlos at right back was the main debate.
We've got a bit more to worry about this season but at least we're not short of scapegoats.
-
In Luke's favour, he cannot be criticised for not giving 100% each game and if there's a 50/50 ball he rarely shirks a challenge
And Carlos doesn't?
Anyway it's a pointless agrument today as after Saturday I think Eric will be in the team for the Wigan game. Luke Young will have to sit it out on the bench and Carlos will play in his preferred position in the middle.
-
In Luke's favour, he cannot be criticised for not giving 100% each game and if there's a 50/50 ball he rarely shirks a challenge
And Carlos doesn't?
Anyway it's a pointless agrument today as after Saturday I think Eric will be in the team for the Wigan game. Luke Young will have to sit it out on the bench and Carlos will play in his preferred position in the middle.
I think so, too.
Did very well on Saturday.
-
Why does Luke Young escape criticism? He's always out of position, rarely tackles and his passing is poor. Could it be because so many spent all last season saying he should be in the side that they can't bring themselves to admit that he's just not very good.
Oh come on Chris, he's not "always out of position" and he certainly hasn't been as bad as you make out. Don't turn this into a Carlos vs Luke Young debate. I defended Carlos at right back last season but Young gives us something extra, even if he's not always on top form.
What does he give us extra? He's not a good attacking full back and he's a worse defender than Carlos.
At the risk of joining in the debate I like Carlos but he cant pass to save his life so thats one thing Luke is better at
Very slightly, Luke's passing is nothing to write home about the majority of which are inside to one of the centre backs. Carlos is a better defender (imo) so having given up that I'd want to see a much stronger contibution in other areas of the game and I just don't think we get that from Luke.
Of course it might be temporary and when the defence returns to form so will he but we saw more from Lichaj on Saturday than we've had from Young in the past 2 months.
-
In Luke's favour, he cannot be criticised for not giving 100% each game and if there's a 50/50 ball he rarely shirks a challenge
And Carlos doesn't?
Anyway it's a pointless agrument today as after Saturday I think Eric will be in the team for the Wigan game. Luke Young will have to sit it out on the bench and Carlos will play in his preferred position in the middle.
Maybe, or maybe we'll see Young at LB and Warnock dropped? Either way I agree that Lichaj should and will start against Wigan.
-
Lichaj Cuellar Clark Warnock v Wigan please.
Warnock was better 2nd half, hopefully he'll improve.
-
In hindsight perhaps we didn't have too much to moan about last season so Carlos at right back was the main debate.
We've got a bit more to worry about this season but at least we're not short of scapegoats.
So MON knew best.
-
Collins was a man mountain with Cuellar last time out. There is not a chance he should be dropped.
-
Has Luke Young been outstanding this season?
No. But he's be less shit than those alongside him so he looks almost good in comparison.
He's a decent player and of all the positions we need to look at to improve in the short-term, RB isn't one of them. If we're ever in a position again to push for top 4, we could probably do with better. But that seems like a million miles away at present.
-
In hindsight perhaps we didn't have too much to moan about last season so Carlos at right back was the main debate.
We've got a bit more to worry about this season but at least we're not short of scapegoats.
So MON knew best.
He certainly knew how to get the defence organised and keeping clean sheets. Playing ten across the back did have it's flaws though.
-
He makes a lot of important runs - Luke Young - and overlaps well creating a lot of space for Albrighton. Its work Cuellar couldn't do. As for defending, yes Cuellar is better but not as a right-back as he tends to get turned too easy by a tricky winger and goes to groundtoo easily also. Luke Young is not playing well at the moment but he is a far superior right-back. Cuellar is the better defender though. But that's like me saying Terry is a better defender than Ashley Cole.
-
In hindsight perhaps we didn't have too much to moan about last season so Carlos at right back was the main debate.
We've got a bit more to worry about this season but at least we're not short of scapegoats.
So MON knew best.
It certainly wasn't the reason why we "only" finished 6th and our Wembley appearances ended in defeat.
-
He makes a lot of important runs - Luke Young - and overlaps well creating a lot of space for Albrighton. Its work Cuellar couldn't do. As for defending, yes Cuellar is better but not as a right-back as he tends to get turned too easy by a tricky winger and goes to groundtoo easily also. Luke Young is not playing well at the moment but he is a far superior right-back. Cuellar is the better defender though. But that's like me saying Terry is a better defender than Ashley Cole.
Comparing Terry to Cole is no worse than comparing Young to Cole.
Luke is a decent premiership full back whether Lichaj is going to be a long term improvement, I'd certainly like to see him given a run to find out, Lichaj does knock a decent ball in, although I hope we don't rely on his long throw too much.
-
I am happy to see lichaj given a run at right back , but would rather luke at left back than warnock-it is warnock who concerns me greatly with his rash tackling, poor positioning and general carelessness throughout his game!
Totally agree luke is a far better right back than carlos but now in his best position I hope carlos will make the centre back role his own.
I do nit think guzan is anywhere near good enough to replace friedal so therefore we probably need to bring in 2 keepers- shay given and kieran Westwood please! I liked the look of clyne at full back for palace last year and he would be a decent shout.
-
In hindsight perhaps we didn't have too much to moan about last season so Carlos at right back was the main debate.
We've got a bit more to worry about this season but at least we're not short of scapegoats.
So MON knew best.
Of course he did and he only left because Randy sacked him.
Right ?
-
Comparing our defence this year when Dunne is overweight and out of form, when Friedel is far from his best along with Collins and Warnock, when the midfield in front of them is mainly inexperienced kids, and Young is getting his first serious run out in seasons, is daft.
Add in the confusion caused by O'Neill's disgracefully late exit, the delay in finding an alternative, giving us 3 'managers' since the pre season started, the continual changes to personal due to injuries, no decent striker to score goals and take the load off the defence and it becomes farcical.
Putting Cuellar with Collins and Lichja alongside them with Warnoock, plus scoring 2 goals against a side with no striker, as he was injured helped tremendously. Illness and injury aside Ged might be able to play the same crew again and hopefully it will do just as well.
Come January when he buys his new keeper, and increases the quality and experience in midfield, plus the return of Coker and Petrov as options, might make it even more interesting.
-
Agree Lichaj did well against a tricky opponent in Thomas.
That long throw could be of use too if we ever choose to go route 1
-
Agree Lichaj did well against a tricky opponent in Thomas.
That long throw could be of use too if we ever choose to go route 1
Its of use even if we do not.
I don't think anyone is daft enough to suggest it becomes our only attacking strategy, but its an option we don't have without him as the other players showed when they totally ruined every one he took
-
Because they're all used to standing about when Warnock takes his.
This would have been on the Top 3 things I'd have looked at...we put the opposition under enough presure to get a throw and then just chuck it back to them.
-
Because they're all used to standing about when Warnock takes his.
This would have been on the Top 3 things I'd have looked at...we put the opposition under enough presure to get a throw and then just chuck it back to them.
it is a manifestation of our problem with movement off the ball, which is a problem we've had for, oooh, at least 15 years now.
Watch us at any throw in, even. Absolutely nobody moves or makes space to receive the ball.
-
retaining the ball from throw ins was a huge problem under MON, i think we have actually improved on this aspect now, but you will only get good movement off the ball when you have players that are technacly able to pass and recieve the ball on the move and we dont have many that can do both maybe Ireland and Bannan
-
If these reports are true, it would appear the reason Dunne was dropped was not due to playing poorly but for talking out of turn.
-
While I believe Dunne has been the weakest link lately I fear if he did say those things he's unfortunately right. It's not the right way to go on war with management team, but I give him a thumb up for having the courage to say that.
Do you mean if he said those things Houlliers training is worse than Mons, and by worse I mean more old fashioned ?
Not sure about the fashion of the training (although I bet at least 60% of the injuries are dew to unmeasured training), but I was referring to "and that their tactics were "desperate"". The football on display since Gerrard took over FOR MY LIKING is too dull, too boring and too clueless.
-
Clark, Cuellar and Davies have barely featured at centre half over the last 18 months, so lets see what they can do between now and the end of the season before shelling out on a centre back.
As long as I know Davies is definitely leaving next month.