A Ship Without A Rudder

[Toronto Villa]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting, whether you loved or hated him, thought his signings were good, bad or indifferent, the results are there for all to see, we can all have judgements on whether he could have done more with the resources he had or thought he punched above his weight.

Gerard Houllier's performance as a manager should be judged in isolation and there shouldn't be any caveats about the perceived strengths/weaknesses he inherited.

I understand what your saying but it will only be possible to do that once he has had an opportunity to buy and sell players, and has served a similar tenure to MON. Right now, it's MON's squad, and we are still clearing the debris of the collapse of MON's "reign" as manager. The good thing is, behind the scenes, there's a lot of goodness at the club, both in terms of structure and youth development which will help propel the club forward faster once Houllier's system is properly up and running.

[Concrete John]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting

I'm going for 12th April 2025.

[Yeltzer]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting

I'm going for 12th April 2025.

Far too soon. Add another 20 years to that.

[Can Gana Be Bettered!?!?]

But, in order to get to the ocean, he needed to turn the boat around. He refused to do it and chose instead to walk the plank, floating aimlessly until some Arabs came along and have him lots of money to captain their little boat up some shitty estuary no-one really knows (or cares)  anything about. 

Couldn't disagree more. He jumped ship to drown. He saw what was happening at Man City and thought "what's the point?" after spending 4 seasons building up his team, Man City were just going to cruise past in one season because of the ridiculous amount of money they have. He will not manage another club in England because he, like most fans, thinks modern football is shit.

[Bosco81]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting, whether you loved or hated him, thought his signings were good, bad or indifferent, the results are there for all to see, we can all have judgements on whether he could have done more with the resources he had or thought he punched above his weight.

Gerard Houllier's performance as a manager should be judged in isolation and there shouldn't be any caveats about the perceived strengths/weaknesses he inherited.

I understand what your saying but it will only be possible to do that once he has had an opportunity to buy and sell players, and has served a similar tenure to MON. Right now, it's MON's squad, and we are still clearing the debris of the collapse of MON's "reign" as manager. The good thing is, behind the scenes, there's a lot of goodness at the club, both in terms of structure and youth development which will help propel the club forward faster once Houllier's system is properly up and running.

At the moment Gerard is getting the plaudits (and rightly so) for the emergence of Bannan, and trusting in young players without making any excuses about the number of injuries we have got.

But when things go wrong, like the defensive mistakes we're making and the increase in injuries, it's too easy to blame MON for it, GH has to take the responsibility for it.

[Merv]

I doubt we'll be blaming Martin O'Neill for any problems we'll be having in 15 years time, but it can't be ignored that he left us in a very difficult situation, and we've all but 'wasted' half a season as time was massively against us in terms of recruitment. On paper, Houllier inherited almost a top six squad but it's not quite so straightforward as that, as there were clearly divisions in the ranks and a large proportion of unsettled players - and since then, events have conspired against Houllier with a ridiculous injury list. He'll get the chance to shape his team over the next couple of years.

I'm pretty much with Kevin on MON - backed him for most of his reign, concern creeping in during season three with repeated strange use of players out of position, some odd signings considering how they were then used, doubts lingering in season four even though, of course, the cup runs were exciting. Can't forget the manner of his departure now though, and loyalty is, as always, firmly with Villa and moving forward.

I'm sure Houllier will make decisions that perplex us over the coming months and years though.

[TheSandman]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting, whether you loved or hated him, thought his signings were good, bad or indifferent, the results are there for all to see, we can all have judgements on whether he could have done more with the resources he had or thought he punched above his weight.

Gerard Houllier's performance as a manager should be judged in isolation and there shouldn't be any caveats about the perceived strengths/weaknesses he inherited.

We have a shit time with injuries and a few players that need to be shipped out and improved upon. I don't think anyone will claim that Houllier will be continued to get excuses (which is what they will be then) ad infinitum. Rather he will receive justifications and reasons for what he inherited (I think personally our team would be going nowhere fast regardless of who is manager) and the bad luck with injuries and of course coming in at a bad time preventing him from signing players. My personal opinion and I think that of most of those who are defending the manager is that he should have the chance to shape the team and bring in/ship out players. I think we will see where we are next season and anyone who thinks otherwise is being downright unreasonable or is an eternal pessimist. Noone here who is defending Gerard holds blind faith. I just wish some people (a small minority) on here would give him a chance.

I liked the former manager though I was unhappy with some of the things he did I felt he had earned the right to continue. For whatever reason though he chose not to do this. He has now become, like so many others who have forsaken 'my' Aston Villa, dead to me. I don't know his reasons, fair or not, but he's gone and I don't care where he ends up. He didn't lead us to unparalleled glory and he didn't fuck up so I have neither the energy nor the wherewithal to give a crap. I do think we'd be in a similar situation to where we are, if not worse,  had he stayed. We've replaced one reasonably good manager with another.

[alanclare]

See thread Aston Villa: a Nautical Metaphor

http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=41141.0

[Chris Smith]

The injury crisis has meant that we cannot make any sort of informed judgement on what Houllier will bring. However, as sure as night follows day he will get a maximum of 2 years before some fans will have the knives out if we haven't advanced in line with their expectations. It will start with a trickle but others will join in over the third season. This isn't meant as a dig at anyone but it's just a sad fact of life that managers get very little time before the more imaptient start looking elsewhere.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

The injury crisis has meant that we cannot make any sort of informed judgement on what Houllier will bring. However, as sure as night follows day he will get a maximum of 2 years before some fans will have the knives out if we haven't advanced in line with their expectations. It will start with a trickle but others will join in over the third season. This isn't meant as a dig at anyone but it's just a sad fact of life that managers get very little time before the more imaptient start looking elsewhere.

I reckon 3 full seasons is more than enough to judge if a manager can cut it or not.
O'Neill had 4, he had more than a fair crack of the whip.

I doubt he'll ever find a club in the future that will give him the free rein and finances that he enjoyed here.

I think he saw the writing on the wall and used the boards decision not to sign McGeady and Keane as an excuse to jump ship.

[Chris Smith]

The injury crisis has meant that we cannot make any sort of informed judgement on what Houllier will bring. However, as sure as night follows day he will get a maximum of 2 years before some fans will have the knives out if we haven't advanced in line with their expectations. It will start with a trickle but others will join in over the third season. This isn't meant as a dig at anyone but it's just a sad fact of life that managers get very little time before the more imaptient start looking elsewhere.

I reckon 3 full seasons is more than enough to judge if a manager can cut it or not.
O'Neill had 4, he had more than a fair crack of the whip.

I doubt he'll ever find a club in the future that will give him the free rein and finances that he enjoyed here.

I think he saw the writing on the wall and used the boards decision not to sign McGeady and Keane as an excuse to jump ship.

I don't want to go over old ground, we've done it to death.

My point is a more general one; that any manager has to deliver early or some fans will turn and that once that starts it quickly builds. So even if we are arguing that GH is putting in place a long term structure, even if we think that there are real signs that the team might develop it won't matter to them unless we're challenging for the top 6 and doing well in the cups. It's not just a Villa thing, most clubs have the same problem, but it makes the job difficult for a manager who might take a more long term strategic view.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Looking back on MON's time I'd say that his strengths were pretty much everything except football. How many times did we hear players wax lyrical about wanting to play for him, he was a good leader that could motivate his players to give everything for 90 minutes. His signings improved each year, despite restricting them to the shores of the UK. I guess he was in too much of a rush and wasn't prepared to gamble on a foreign player and the time it may take for him to settle in. He was very thorough in making sure he got the right man which may have frustrated some but it was all about the getting the right players in.

His media profile was good for the club, even though he often spoke in riddles, the press loved him. He was ambitious and whilst things were going well, he was happy (to take the praise). Ok, he never loved the club but then very few managers do and having come from Celtic and witnessed week in, week out their support, we were never going to have the same kind of relationship. It was very much a one way love affair but he should count himself lucky he arrived at the club when he did. No other Villa manager has had the fortune of those conditions and I doubt any future manager will either.

His only real weakness is he's not a footballing manager. He's tactically niave, has little understanding of the modern game and despite the large investment made by the club, relied solely on power and effort to grind out results. He realised that we are in a results industry and he didn't really care how we got the points, as long as we got them. Most of the fans went along with that although towards the end of his time at VP, some were starting to question him, something he rejected as ill-informed. His ego would never allow anybody to question him, which is pretty much why he left.

If MON had sorted out our home form to compliment our fantistic away record, the man would have been a legend. But that was never going to happen, not just because he didn't have the football know-how to fix it but because he surrounded himself by people that didn't know how to either.

As for Houllier, it's far too early to make any judgements. Once he has a settled side and a few signings we'll soon know how good he is and what weaknesses he has. The one thing I think he will bring with him is more entertaining football although I'm not sure if he can get the results to match, at least not in the short term. After MON, more entertaining play should be easy but how long will fans put up with graceful defeats and lost points. I can hear Chris Smith making a list of Mowbray references as we speak.

For now, I'm just glad the Villa have joined the 21st century. It's just a shame we left it so late.

[KevinGage]

His media profile was good for the club, even though he often spoke in riddles, the press loved him. He was ambitious and whilst things were going well, he was happy (to take the praise). Ok, he never loved the club but then very few managers do and having come from Celtic and witnessed week in, week out their support, we were never going to have the same kind of relationship. It was very much a one way love affair but he should count himself lucky he arrived at the club when he did. No other Villa manager has had the fortune of those conditions and I doubt any future manager will either.

That's the thing Mark.

For all this suggestion that he wasn't backed or that fans were getting impatient I can't recall a more popular Villa manager in my lifetime.

Certainly more popular support than BFR and Sir Brian despite not even coming close to delivering what they managed.

[Risso]

The injury crisis has meant that we cannot make any sort of informed judgement on what Houllier will bring. However, as sure as night follows day he will get a maximum of 2 years before some fans will have the knives out if we haven't advanced in line with their expectations. It will start with a trickle but others will join in over the third season. This isn't meant as a dig at anyone but it's just a sad fact of life that managers get very little time before the more imaptient start looking elsewhere.

I reckon 3 full seasons is more than enough to judge if a manager can cut it or not.
O'Neill had 4, he had more than a fair crack of the whip.

I doubt he'll ever find a club in the future that will give him the free rein and finances that he enjoyed here.

I think he saw the writing on the wall and used the boards decision not to sign McGeady and Keane as an excuse to jump ship.

I think there is an element of fan impatience as Chris says, but with O'Neill we saw no overall improvement in the standard of football, tactics or squad use in 4 years, so I honestly think he'd reached his plateau.  Not wishing to go over old ground again, he had 4 years to improve the striking department, and failed miserabley to do it.

[Concrete John]

Certainly more popular support than BFR and Sir Brian despite not even coming close to delivering what they managed.

Maybe it was becuse it was before the days of the internet, where, lets face it, people do like to have a pop, but I don't see MON as being any more popular than either of those two managers.  If you take out the eurphoria of the time he arrived, where we were so glad Ellis sold up that everything associated with the club and randy looked great, then I'd argue he was less popular.