A Ship Without A Rudder

[pauliewalnuts]

I'm not sure why somone can't admit that they liked O'Neill without being accused of liking the man more than the club.....

That's a bit extreme isn't it, Chico?

I liked O'Neill the person as well. I enjoyed finishing in the top six. I enjoyed going to Wembley. For two years, though, I didn't enjoy going to our home matches, because we were largely dire to watch. I also think it was pretty plain that we'd plateaud under MON - to move on further would have required tactical nous, which I personally don't think he had. I suspect had he stayed, it would have been more of the same, with more money thrown at it. That's just my opinion, though.

I was extremely annoyed by the manner and timing of his departure, both of which pretty much ensured this was going to be at best a season of consolidation.

I think that sacking him would have been ridiculous, and that he'd earned the right to at least another season having a go, but to read the opening post on this thread, you'd think we actually had sacked him.

We didn't. Things got a little rocky and he resigned - first hint of troubled times and he was off. That's disappointing.

What I do think is incredibly unfair is to hold up this season - the turmoil of which was caused by the previous manager leaving when he did - as an example of why said previous manager was so great.

As for the squad, yes, he left us with some very good players, but we are now also starting to appreciate that he left us with a very lopsided squad - 30m pounds worth of centre halves, but desperately in need of a goalscorer, for example.

[Concrete John]

We have a manager who has recognised the coaching talent within the club, and promoted accordingly (not just giving jobs to his mates); young players - hell, not even that young, some of them are 21-22 - being given a chance to show they can genuinely contribute to the squad - and a manager who has a far more open view of the transfer market.

Lets not get too carried away here.
1.  He's promoted Sid, but that was after the bloke he was after didn't want to come.
2.  The kids are playing through injuries and not choice.
3.  One out of window does not tell us his transfer policy.

Despite the results I like what I'm seeing from Gezza, but let's not try to make it out to be something it's not.  As we said when he took over, the time to start making judgements is next season.

[PeterWithe]

I liked him, enjoyed his time in charge, enjoyed some fantastic games - Emirates, Goodison, Spurs 125 birthday party, Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford....

Enjoyed Villa's resurgence under him.

I hope Houllier does as well/better than O'Neill but I can't deny that I was hapy with O'Neill in charge.

The way he left us dosent affect the way I felt about him while he was with us. Just the same as with Saunders.

I'm not sure why somone can't admit that they liked O'Neill without being accused of liking the man more than the club.....

That just about mirrors my feelings about him.

[Chico Hamilton III]

That's a bit extreme isn't it, Chico?

I don't think so. There's 2 posts on this thread alone, reminding Damo that Villa are bigger than any individual - as if he suggested anything different.

[jonzy85]

Main problem is that we lost our best player from last season and signed no one bar Ireland because City wouldnt give us the money we wanted.
I thought Ireland would be far far better, but it looks like he just wont be able to fit into the team with the personnel we have at present.

So while we disimproved over the summer, all of those around us and below us improved. Where the blame lies for that...we can't be sure....

[Bosco81]

I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that the squad weren't fit enough in previous years to get injured, now we've upped the training we're getting more injuries.

Perhaps the fit ones are really, really fit, it's the injured ones that would be really fit if they weren't injured obviously.

I liked Martin, we had some great years but he did annoy the tits off me on occasions.

[Yeltzer]

I liked Martin, we had some great years but he did annoy the tits off me on occasions.

Well summed up!

[adrenachrome]

I liked him, enjoyed his time in charge, enjoyed some fantastic games - Emirates, Goodison, Spurs 125 birthday party, Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford....

Enjoyed Villa's resurgence under him.

I hope Houllier does as well/better than O'Neill but I can't deny that I was hapy with O'Neill in charge.

The way he left us dosent affect the way I felt about him while he was with us. Just the same as with Saunders.

I'm not sure why somone can't admit that they liked O'Neill without being accused of liking the man more than the club.....

That just about mirrors my feelings about him.

I would hitch myself to this band wagon as well, if I may.

All aboard ... Chico's iron sledge
Please don't call me Reg
It's not my name

[Merv]

We have a manager who has recognised the coaching talent within the club, and promoted accordingly (not just giving jobs to his mates); young players - hell, not even that young, some of them are 21-22 - being given a chance to show they can genuinely contribute to the squad - and a manager who has a far more open view of the transfer market.

Lets not get too carried away here.
1.  He's promoted Sid, but that was after the bloke he was after didn't want to come.
2.  The kids are playing through injuries and not choice.
3.  One out of window does not tell us his transfer policy.

Despite the results I like what I'm seeing from Gezza, but let's not try to make it out to be something it's not.  As we said when he took over, the time to start making judgements is next season.

I'm posting as I see it now John, thanks very much. I won't form a proper judgement on Houllier until he's had a couple of seasons at least but right now, I see that he's starting to form a sounder infrastructure than O'Neill, who has always taken the same coaching staff with him from club to club. Sid may well have had a role in the first team set-up regardless of who else Houllier appointed; after all, if Houllier didn't see the value in using Cowans, he wouldn't have done it.

As for the young players, we all know he's being forced to use them more regularly than he would have liked because of the injuries - Hogg wouldn't be anywhere near the team otherwise. But Houllier picked Clark over Cuellar, and used Bannan more frequently even when Petrov and Reo-Coker were fit.

As for transfer policy.... I'm taking a leap of faith and assuming Houllier may look further afield than O'Neill did. I might be proved wrong on that.

I can assure you I'm not getting carried away by anything! Who can, in the current climate? But I can see the potential for the next few years, and positive changes taking place.

[KevinGage]

I'm not sure why somone can't admit that they liked O'Neill without being accused of liking the man more than the club.....

I think when you see a post saying "as a MON fan..." it leaves the writer of said fawning tribute open to that particular charge. Particularly when the rest of the post was effectively along the lines of 'you never had it so good.'  It just needed 'so called Villa fans' for the full set.

I could understand was  a MON fan - past tense. I think most could agree it wasn't all bad and there were some fantastic memories over the four years. Probably not enough to justify the outlay, good faith and favourable conditions he operated under, true.  And there was a nagging feeling from about Feb/March 2009 onwards that he'd done his chips and his limitations would block further progress. But that's by the by. 

 I'd struggle to see how any Villa supporter could still be a fan of the bloke after the way he left us well and truly in the shit this summer though.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

I'm not sure why somone can't admit that they liked O'Neill without being accused of liking the man more than the club.....

I think when you see a post saying "as a MON fan..." it leaves the writer of said fawning tribute open to that particular charge. Particularly when the rest of the post was effectively along the lines of 'you never had it so good.'  It just needed 'so called Villa fans' for the full set.

I could understand was  a MON fan - past tense. I think most could agree it wasn't all bad and there were some fantastic memories over the four years. Probably not enough to justify the outlay, good faith and favourable conditions he operated under, true.  And there was a nagging feeling from about Feb/March 2009 onwards that he'd done his chips and his limitations would block further progress. But that's by the by. 

 I'd struggle to see how any Villa supporter could still be a fan of the bloke after the way he left us well and truly in the shit this summer though.

Spot on Kevin.

[Concrete John]

I'd struggle to see how any Villa supporter could still be a fan of the bloke after the way he left us well and truly in the shit this summer though.

The way I see it, there are two arguments here.  One is about his merits, or lack thereof, as our manager and the other is his integrity and motivation of the timing of his departure.

For the 1st, I was happy with the progress we were making and I think how good a job he was doing is now being shown by our present position.  As to the 2nd, I still think we don't, and probably never will, know the full story.  But those who felt he was a 'bad' manager seem to side with the idea he was a complete bastard, yet those like myself who were fans generally don't.  This is unusual as one doesn't really have anything to do with the other.       

[KevinGage]

How about those who thought he was a good manager (as I did) and still thought he was a complete bastard for leaving when he did?

It is possible to separate the two, his stint with us and the manner of his departure.

Only one man brought the hammer down on MON's time at the club and that was MON himself. The vast majority of the support were behind him (even if doubts were growing most believed he deserved another year at the very least) and RL backed him, even if he did require the wage > turnover ratio to be addressed. In line with other clubs across the country.

But this has been done to death. Others who are still looking for conspiracy theories despite the General saying the wage bill was the tipping point (and MON not contradicting that) will still look to absolve him in some way, or attempt to create enough doubt so as to suggest he wan't completely liable.

[Concrete John]

How about those who thought he was a good manager (as I did) and still thought he was a complete bastard for leaving when he did?

It is possible to separate the two, his stint with us and the manner of his departure.

Only one man brought the hammer down on MON's time at the club and that was MON himself. The vast majority of the support were behind him (even if doubts were growing most believed he deserved another year at the very least) and RL backed him, even if he did require the wage > turnover ratio to be addressed. In line with other clubs across the country.

But this has been done to death. Others who are still looking for conspiracy theories despite the General saying the wage bill was the tipping point (and MON not contradicting that) will still look to absolve him in some way, or attempt to create enough doubt so as to suggest he wan't completely liable.

If that's your view then fair enough, but I do think it's possible to separate the two.

I don't think it's a matter of conspiracy theories, but if these workig conditions were set out at the start of the summer, why wasn't the decision taken then?  I simply don't believe he decided to go but waited until a week before the season to do it so as to fully fuck us over - that's another conspiracy theory.

Personally I think he had a problem with Faulkner.  And the 'if the chairman was at the end of the corridor' comment might bear this out.  If that's true then do we say he tried to make it work and couldn't or he should have walked earlier?  Take your choice on that one, but I think you're right and this has been done to death!

[Bosco81]

There needs to be a time limit soon on blaming any/all of our problems on MON quitting, whether you loved or hated him, thought his signings were good, bad or indifferent, the results are there for all to see, we can all have judgements on whether he could have done more with the resources he had or thought he punched above his weight.

Gerard Houllier's performance as a manager should be judged in isolation and there shouldn't be any caveats about the perceived strengths/weaknesses he inherited.