The legacy of Martin O'Neill

[sfx412]

Those of you want it to be true to support your idea that MON was useless clearly prefer it not to be questioned but there is surely merit in trying to dig below the surface to see if we can find out more.

Was Mon useless now then ?
He had plenty of faults, quitting when he did was his pinnacle but he managed to achieve some good things, alongside the majority of mediocre and sometimes down right abysmal things, so I can't see that.
Then again I can't see the need now, especially after his shameful exit, for those trying to justify their  erroneous errors of judgement by those who supported him and still do with a long drawn out analysis of a club who drew 2-2 away from home last night in a Cup competition we still dream of getting in to.
I appreciate much of their past defence is now looking decidedly ropey and they must all be clutching at straws, but is it not time to move on.
He left the club in all sorts of a mess and when we get a new manager its going to be a hard task to adjust all and sundry back to a sensible balance, is that not more important.

[KevinGage]

I reckon if you asked most people who had not been privy to this thread which club had the highest wage bill they'd plump for the one with the larger squad, based in London with players such as Keane, Defoe, Crouch, King, Modric and Pavklathingy in it.

It is therefore counter-intuitive to be told that it is Villa. So it's not unreasonable for VD to try to investigate why one set of accounts(and as far as I can tell this whole thing is based a single set from a couple of years back) shows ours to be higher.

Those of you want it to be true to support your idea that MON was useless clearly prefer it not to be questioned but there is surely merit in trying to dig below the surface to see if we can find out more.

I don't see many posts saying he was useless. Any, in fact.

6th three times in a row isn't useless.

Even if he did have generous financial backing, others have had similar and not achieved that.

It's just in this particular instance, in comparison to another Premiership manager of a similar sized club he has come up short. Despite being in charge twice as long as said manager and presiding over a higher wage bill.

You and VD might not like the latter to be the case, and god knows VD has gone to exhaustive lengths to create the illusion that it isn't. With very little success so far.
It really isn't that hard to rationalise. They recruit from a wider pool than we do. This summer they have signed Sandro from Brazillian football. Chances are coming into this league he will command a lower salary than a Sidwell or a  Beye.

Previously they've recruited Modric, Ekotto, Gomez and co from abroad and Lennon, Huddlestone, Dawson, Bale from the lower leagues. So for every Keane or Defoe on premium wages they have had an equally talented squad member on far less. Whereas we are top-heavy with a stack of players on between £40-£60k, many of them (last year at least) nowhere near the first team.

I expect that with their success last year many of the Spurs players listed above will be on far better deals now. But that is now. After a measure of success. Performance related, you could say.  We were paying JC, Friedel, Ash, Milner, Beye, Heskey, Shorey, Sidwell, Luke Young, NRC, Downing, Dunne and co killer wages as soon as they walked through the door, as they came from other top flight (or recently relegated) English clubs. Some of them justified it, plenty of them didn't.

[Villa'Zawg]

Thinks - I wonder if Villa are spreading signing on fees over the length of the player contracts or taking the hit upfront???

Sorry to everybody else for carrying this on, but allow me:
"Signing-on fees payable to players are recognised in operating expenses as incurred."
The same as Spurs then.  I'll add it to the list:
 
Villadawg's reasons for Spurs having higher wages than Villa
 
Contingent liabilities
Image rights
Amortisation
Signing on fees
I feel it in my bones
 
Anything else?
 

Hang on a second, don't go striking off I feel it in my bones. I am not persuaded that Martin O'Neill and Randy Lerner will have signed off on wages for our squad that are higher than the wages Spurs pay their squad. I could understand if man for man we paid our players slightly more than theirs but Spurs have a larger squad and about 8 more experienced players than we have. Each of them earning at the very least 25k a week I would have thought.

 I'll have to take another look at the accounts myself. I'll also try to gain an understanding of why we have 445 permanent staff compared to Everton and Spurs who have 226 and 286 respectively and why we have approx. double the number of part-time staff.

[Ger Regan]

This thread is like a really really dull political thriller.

[Monty]

I don't see many posts saying he was useless. Any, in fact.

6th three times in a row isn't useless.

Even if he did have generous financial backing, others have had similar and not achieved that.

If anything, the way he limits himself tactically and in the market shows how good some of his other managerial qualities must be.

[Risso]

Hang on a second, don't go striking off I feel it in my bones. I am not persuaded that Martin O'Neill and Randy Lerner will have signed off on wages for our squad that are higher than the wages Spurs pay their squad. I could understand if man for man we paid our players slightly more than theirs but Spurs have a larger squad and about 8 more experienced players than we have. Each of them earning at the very least 25k a week I would have thought.

 I'll have to take another look at the accounts myself. I'll also try to gain an understanding of why we have 445 permanent staff compared to Everton and Spurs who have 226 and 286 respectively and why we have approx. double the number of part-time staff.

I did wonder about that to be fair.  I thought about asking the General but considered that the chances of getting an answer were precisely nil so didn't bother.

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't see many posts saying he was useless. Any, in fact.

6th three times in a row isn't useless.

Even if he did have generous financial backing, others have had similar and not achieved that.

If anything, the way he limits himself tactically and in the market shows how good some of his other managerial qualities must be.

I'd agree with that.

I've always thought his motivational skills (at least with the players he's still talking to) are excellent, and he excels at getting above average performances out of not so good players.

Where I think he struggles is when you need something beyond motivation.

[KevinGage]

As mentioned earlier, isn't it likely that the circa 200 figure represents essential staff for most clubs. But whereas other clubs outsource certain aspects of the operation, we do it all in house?

Or is that too straightforward?

[dave.woodhall]

If there's 300 stewards on matchday there's probably about 400 on the books annually to account for time off and staff turnover. Add catering staff to that and you could easily touch 1,000. 

[pauliewalnuts]

If there's 300 stewards on matchday there's probably about 400 on the books annually to account for time off and staff turnover.

So, theoretically, someone who only works three hours a year for the Villa but is paid PAYE would be listed as an employee?

Like, say, Habib Beye?

[KevinGage]

I don't see many posts saying he was useless. Any, in fact.

6th three times in a row isn't useless.

Even if he did have generous financial backing, others have had similar and not achieved that.

If anything, the way he limits himself tactically and in the market shows how good some of his other managerial qualities must be.

I'd agree with that.

I've always thought his motivational skills (at least with the players he's still talking to) are excellent, and he excels at getting above average performances out of not so good players.

Where I think he struggles is when you need something beyond motivation.

Whichever way you look at it, winning 17 games in a league as tough as the Premiership is no mean feat.

The frustration is that at various stages we could have pulled away even further. Had the arse not fallen out of our season post Moscow and Stoke in 2008/09 and had we not gobbed it at home to the tatters and Slumberland last year and so forth.

Scrap that, all the above might have been tolerated better had we something like 10/11  in the home wins column and provided a bit more entertainment. But that argument has been done to death. Rest In Pieces.

Will we win 17 games this year?

We'll have our work cut out, if this start is anything to go by.

[dave.woodhall]

If there's 300 stewards on matchday there's probably about 400 on the books annually to account for time off and staff turnover.

So, theoretically, someone who only works three hours a year for the Villa but is paid PAYE would be listed as an employee?

Like, say, Habib Beye?

Laboured, but yes.

[Monty]

If there's 300 stewards on matchday there's probably about 400 on the books annually to account for time off and staff turnover.

So, theoretically, someone who only works three hours a year for the Villa but is paid PAYE would be listed as an employee?

Like, say, Habib Beye?

Don't be ridiculous. Habib Beye has never 'worked' for Villa.

[TheSandman]

This thread is like a really really dull political thriller.

'All The General's Men'

Makes Archer look Booker prize worthy.

[peter w]

If there's 300 stewards on matchday there's probably about 400 on the books annually to account for time off and staff turnover. Add catering staff to that and you could easily touch 1,000.

Catering staff are agency staff though and not club employees.