The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[Ozzjim]

I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.

[Mister E]

Without an outright defence of MON, I have never subscribed to the idea that he was spiteful in leaving us, he had his reasons and they may be honourable.

Well, Nev, "spiteful and vindictive" are the two words I have consistently used. The reasons?
(i) he had lost the love for the job probably back in March-April but waited for a tipping point that was of maximum damage to the club; and (ii) he didn't acknowledge the fans or the club whatsoever during / after leaving.
I cannot accept that he didn't know what he was doing,

[Dave]

Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?

Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".

I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.

[danno]

I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.

The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.

Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's  probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?

Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?

It really all depends on whose paper these figures are.  In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.

[Damo70]

Nev is right in saying that unless he comes out with his side of the story the spiteful thing will always be thrown at him regarding the timing of his departure. My personal opinion is that from the start of the calender year he was being told the way things were going to be in future, but as someone accustomed to getting his own way he was confident he would continue to get his own way until it was proven otherwise. I still appreciate the job he did and don't accept that everything negative in the last three seasons should be put down to him.

[Dave]

Nev is right in saying that unless he comes out with his side of the story the spiteful thing will always be thrown at him regarding the timing of his departure.

I'd expect silence from both parties would be in the terms of the out-of-court settlement.

[SoccerHQ]

Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?

Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".

I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.

True but in the end it costs you.

Season 09/10 we won 7 home games playing the way we played. Spurs won I think 14.

[Ozzjim]

I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.

The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.

Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's  probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?

Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?

It really all depends on whose paper these figures are.  In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.

I meant at the time he left. Point being he spent massive money on fees and wages, and 3 years later all that remains down to him is Delph pretty much, and apart from 2 players most of what has gone has done at a loss. I actually think this squad would be worth more if put up for sale tomorrow, even in our current position, which is crazy. //his forward planning was startlingly bad.

[paul_e]

Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?

Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".

I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.

True but in the end it costs you.

Season 09/10 we won 7 home games playing the way we played. Spurs won I think 14.

Strange to pick a mid table side as the example.

A backup plan doesn't have to be a complete change in style.  Mon's main flaws were that he seemed to have prepared his subs before kick off and, barring injury, the game never really had any say.  It happened for weeks you can check it out by looking for 'nearly heskey-time' (or similar phrases) on match threads from the time.

For example, you have a target man who's being doubled up on and struggling to get into the game, so you let him drift a bit deeper and push someone else onto the last defender, make the other team/manager make a decision, does the centre back come out with the big guy and leave a gap or does one of your midfielders drop deeper?

It's micro changes like that which make all the difference and mon never did those other than getting the wingers to switch sides every now and then.

[KevinGage]

It has been quoted by more than one source in the media that his time was up after meeting with the owner recently to discuss recent performances and results. He put his case for how hard he was going to work to turn things around and his confidence in doing so. He apparently followed that up by not showing his face in training for the following three days.

Kinda ties in with this:

clicktown

“We are going to practice much more than in the past ­because, ­obviously, I received some notice about what has happened in the last few weeks. The way we are planning to work with the players will be more intensive.


“When a footballer is working only one or two hours and they have 22 hours’ free time, how can you give them Sunday off, ­Wednesday off?"

[Somniloquism]

When Houliier made similar changes here to MON's outgoing reign, he had severe injury and player revolt problems. Let's hope the same thing happens at Sunderland in the next 6 games.

[danno]

I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.

The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.

Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's  probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?

Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?

It really all depends on whose paper these figures are.  In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.

I meant at the time he left. Point being he spent massive money on fees and wages, and 3 years later all that remains down to him is Delph pretty much, and apart from 2 players most of what has gone has done at a loss. I actually think this squad would be worth more if put up for sale tomorrow, even in our current position, which is crazy. //his forward planning was startlingly bad.

Yeah no argument on that score. I just thought that even though its true that most of Warnock, Collins, L Young Friedal, Sidwell Reo Coker, left for nothing, in 2010 (on paper) they were worth more than that.

[KevinGage]

Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.

If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?

Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".

I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.

I agree with most of that, and recall saying similar when the talk of 'no plan B' first started doing the rounds back in about 2009.   The (oh so imaginative) example I used though was Barcelona, they wouldn't just start hoofing it long if plan A wasn't working. 

I guess the lesson there is if you only have one way of playing, make sure it's a damn good one.

[Dave]

And to flip it on its head, if the way that you play your football is "pass it wide, cross it as well and as often as you can" (which when done well can be very entertaining and exciting) then the players that you would use to do that aren't the same ones as you'd pick to play intricate little triangles at the edge of the penalty area.

[KevinGage]

True. 

For a brief period when Ash was coming to prominence and Laursen was fit and pretty much unstoppable in both penalty areas, the plan was extremely effective. 

Even if the style wasn't always a joy to behold (though like you, I have an appreciation for wingplay too) once you get a two goal jump on teams they often fold.  Or have little choice but to attack -which left us with plenty of space on the counter.