The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[KevinGage]

Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?

According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.

So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.

Isn't that a double-standard?

I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?

A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.

I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.

But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager.

It can, if he signs a load of 'aul shite.       

Welcome back, Villadawg.

[Villadroid]

Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?

According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.

So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.

Isn't that a double-standard?

I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?

A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.

I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.

But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager.

One of the less famous quotes from Brian Moore on that night it Rotterdam - "The goal from Peter Withe is going to be worth a fortune to them."

He went on to say during the game that "Tony Barton had said that if Villa won the European Cup it would be like winning the pools, as we would play in the World Club Championship in Tokyo, get to play in exhibition matches as well as going back into the European cup next season, all of which is worth a lot of money."

The only proof of that is whether that expected extra income was reflected in the price Villa was sold for.

How much did Doug pay for Villa, pro-rata or otherwise?

[London Villan]

Doug didn't pay anything in 1982, he just guaranteed the £1m overdraft, then sold everyone he could to pay off the debt.

[dave.woodhall]

Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.

[olaftab]

Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
So why the double-standard?
 

OK hang on a second I  will try to re-think about MON and see if I can forgive him....nope I can't!

Anyway there is no comparison here. MON spent more money than any other Villa manager and in 4 years won  f all where as Ron  won 2  Cups and the CHAMPIONSHIP and gave us the team that won the EUROPEAN cup..

[hilts_coolerking]

In order to still feel kindly disposed towards O'Neill you'd have to:

a) think he did an outstanding job (which he didn't)
b) think he spent Lerner's money wisely and carefully (which he didn't)
c) think walking out on us on the brink of a new season wasn't a selfish and vindictive action (which it was).

[Villadroid]

Thanks, all good stuff.

So basically Doug bought a business with debts twice as much as it was worth?

Doesn't sound like a potential cash cow to me.

[Louzie0]

This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way.  No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.

But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.

...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.

Yes!  An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle.  Half time at home matches this Christmas?  I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned.  Thanks!

[Mister E]

This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way.  No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.

But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.

...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.

Yes!  An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle.  Half time at home matches this Christmas?  I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned.  Thanks!

What an offally good idea Louise! If the management have the gall to serve this up I'm sure we'll all be able to get through the entrails of 2012 and move into the new year with hope of less of the tripe we've been given by TSM this year. It's been pretty gut-wrenching, after all and we've all vented our spleen here on H&V.

[Villadroid]

In order to still feel kindly disposed towards O'Neill you'd have to:

a) think he did an outstanding job (which he didn't)
b) think he spent Lerner's money wisely and carefully (which he didn't)
c) think walking out on us on the brink of a new season wasn't a selfish and vindictive action (which it was).

I disagree.

a)No manager has done an outstanding job since Taylor mark one and I still feel kindly to the rest.
b)Lerner was experienced in running a professional sports club and he ran the Browns at a profit, so he was fully aware of the cost of turning the side which O'Leary left behind into Champions League challenges. The Chelsea accounts were available to show what it costs. Krulak said that the club both expected to make a loss and accepted it. So no one stole the the rich kid's lunch money.
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.

[KevinGage]

What lie was that, then? 

Both GH and Ginge-  for all their many, many other faults-  made it quite clear that they were working within stricter parameters than had gone before, and the wage bill (remember that?)  was a big concern.

[hilts_coolerking]

b)Lerner was experienced in running a professional sports club and he ran the Browns at a profit, so he was fully aware of the cost of turning the side which O'Leary left behind into Champions League challenges. The Chelsea accounts were available to show what it costs. Krulak said that the club both expected to make a loss and accepted it. So no one stole the the rich kid's lunch money.

No-one stole anything from anyone.  However, O'Neill had a great deal of money to spend and spent a lot of it badly, both in transfer fees and wages.  The effect of that waste is still being felt now.  Lerner gave O'Neill almost carte blanche (which was a mistake) to spend but he didn't give him carte blanche to spend badly.  When Lerner realised what O'Neill was doing he asked the manager to rein it in, quite understandably.  For some reason O'Neill found this intolerable.

[Mister E]

c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.

Don't get the point you're trying to make here at all.

[Louzie0]

This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way.  No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.

But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.

...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.

Yes!  An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle.  Half time at home matches this Christmas?  I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned.  Thanks!

What an offally good idea Louise! If the management have the gall to serve this up I'm sure we'll all be able to get through the entrails of 2012 and move into the new year with hope of less of the tripe we've been given by TSM this year. It's been pretty gut-wrenching, after all and we've all vented our spleen here on H&V.

Well, some might think there's burger all to be happy about.  Me, I'm expecting the Villa to rise like an enthusiastic er... Burger bun! With wholemeal bits so it's healthy.  God, I wish I hadn't started this analogy.  Could do so much more with cupcakes... 

[dave.woodhall]

I do love it when people spout opinion as fact.