The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[paul_e]

As I say, I enjoyed his time here, and a part of that was choosing to enjoy, and not getting dragged down by the minutiae of what was wrong. I had no choice but to be miserable under DOL, Houllier and TSM, so I'm glad I had that break, unlike some of you, who are now hopefully emerging from 7 years of unrelenting misery.

Now this is not me bigging up MON, but I don't see how sacking him earlier would have helped. Things haven't gone altogether swimmingly since he left have they?

Depends how much earlier, sacking him 2-3 months before he left would have made a huge difference in my opinion.  I think the timing of his departure and the choice of someone so tactically different as his successor, with no ability to change the squad for half a season, have proven hugely significant in our subsequent performances.

[Concrete John]

Nowhere near as much as the abandonment of zonal marking, but the ditching of centre-halves at right-back contributed in part to us going from the best in the league at defending set-pieces, to the worst in the league.

As well as that was not having a Heskey/Carew type striker to come back at help defend set pieces.  That didn't make up for Heskey shortcomings, but it was an advantage when he played.

[Witton Warrior]

When he came there was a huge feeling of relief and, if we are honest, surprise that a high-profile manager had come to us.
I was swept up in the Proud History/Bright Future for the first two seasons but then the cracks began to show and even though his departure was a shock I thought we could push on - only then did the cracks turn out to be yawning chasms.

He is inextricably linked with the last two seasons debacles and blamed directly by many - personally I don't care as I love the Villa more than I hate anyone/thing. So he can sod off from my radar now and we can get on with the rest of our lives.

[Percy McCarthy]

That is how I've thought of it the last two years WW. The only reason I've posted is because of people going 'we were right, it WAS crap all along'.

[peter w]

Thing is Perce its how he left and what we've done since that have clouded everyone's judgement of his time. Yes there were many great times under the wanker. But the same reason that I'd give cat calls to Barry and not milner for the way he treated our club, I'm not about to let O'Neill off in the slightest and I begrudge him any credit for any of the good times in retrospection.

[Percy McCarthy]

Agreed Pete, but we were debating what we posted before all that happened.

[peter w]

I know. I'm just saying that many a person will have their memory coloured by what has since transpired.

[Risso]

I know. I'm just saying that many a person will have their memory coloured by what has since transpired.

Well, of course.  Just like Leeds fans who enjoyed the Champions League semi-final probably haven't enjoyed the intervening years quite as much.

[Big Dick Edwards]

How many regulars to Villa Park can honestly say they enjoyed what they were watching under O'Neill? Our home record was very disappointing points wise and even worse performance wise. It was only our hit 'em on the break away record that papered over the cracks of O'Neill's lack of imagination and tactical ability.

[dave.woodhall]

All this touches on something I've thought about lately. The main reason why we're pissed off at the moment, overly-critical about the past and cynical about the future is that for the success we've had over the past twenty years (and looking at it rationally we've probably done better than we and most outsiders give us credit for) we've got tangibly very little to show for it. Other clubs at our level have either got regular trophies, cup finals or great European nights as proof of the good times. We've got two fast-fading League Cups, two cup finals best forgotten and a UEFA cup quarter.

[Legion]

Don't forget the Peace Cup.

[tomd2103]

All this touches on something I've thought about lately. The main reason why we're pissed off at the moment, overly-critical about the past and cynical about the future is that for the success we've had over the past twenty years (and looking at it rationally we've probably done better than we and most outsiders give us credit for) we've got tangibly very little to show for it. Other clubs at our level have either got regular trophies, cup finals or great European nights as proof of the good times. We've got two fast-fading League Cups, two cup finals best forgotten and a UEFA cup quarter.

Would agree with that Dave.  What has also been noticeable in that period is how quickly we have gone from having successful seasons to the brink of relegation in a short space of time. 

[Legion]

Neil Moxley

[Percy McCarthy]

Oliver Holt.

Is there any point to this or is it just word association?

Sorry Lee, I guess it's a link. Copy and paste please?

[Legion]

Was O'Neill a good Villa manager? Let's end this debate once and for all...

As it is my understanding that yours truly was one of the journalists accused of 're-writing history,' by Martin O'Neill last week, let's settle the dispute over whether he did a good job at Aston Villa once and for all.

 
Now I'll be the first to hold up my hands and say that yes, on the whole, O'Neill ended in credit.

 
He ushered in an exciting era by making Aston Villa competitive again. He put the pride back into the club. What's more, winning football returned.


There were highlights - the return of European football, standing toe-to-toe with the big guns and recording some notable victories, such as winning at Old Trafford for the first time in almost three decades.

 
On a personal level, I enjoyed his company. He could be engaging, witty, funny. And spiteful and petty, given the occasion. However, the good outweighed the bad.


Hey, none of us is perfect. I fail to put dirty crockery in the dishwasher on the odd occasion - and suffer for it accordingly. It's one of those. But I am getting slightly miffed at the lack of perspective being shown by the former Villa boss.

 
Did he end his four-year reign in credit by that much? Yes, three sixth-placed finishes and one cup final in four years was a decent return.

 
Surely however, all this has to be placed in context. Until that day in August 2010 when he walked out, he had spent more money and had enjoyed a bigger budget than any other manager in Aston Villa's history.

 
Playing devil's advocate therefore, was it not reasonable to have expected more? After all, Harry Redknapp lifted Spurs into the Champions League after finding them bottom of the pile during the same period...

 
First though, let's deal with the stated 'fact' that O'Neill achieved more than any other Premier League manager at Villa Park. He didn't. Ron Atkinson finished second in 1992-93.

 
He didn't accrue more points than any other Villa manager. Atkinson did, in the above season, with 74 points, albeit from four matches more. Big Ron's points-per-game ratio is higher, too.

 
In fact, in terms of league finishes, several Villa managers have managed sixth - or better. John Gregory, (1998-99, 1999-2000) Brian Little (1995-96) and even David O'Leary (2003-04) reached that mark.


What's more, Atkinson won the League Cup. (1994) Gregory made it to the FA Cup final. (2000)
And Little went one better than O'Neill, winning the League Cup and reaching an FA Cup semi-final while hitting fourth. (1995-96)


But the Irishman's efforts have to be placed in context alongside all those others. None of the above - not even Atkinson - had access to the kind of funds O'Neill enjoyed when Randy Lerner entered English football with such a bang.

 
How could they? They worked for Doug Ellis whose solemn vow after taking over a bankrupt club in 1968 was that Aston Villa would never again be in such desperate financial straits.

 
But here's the rub. Look at what was left behind.

 
Once James Milner had been sold, there was little by way of value in much of Villa's squad. (Here, you can certainly draw parallels with Gregory's days in charge.) Okay, Stewart Downing went to Liverpool for an £8m profit. Ashley Young followed for a £6m boost to Villa's coffers.

Wiped out by the losses incurred on Marlon Harewood, Zat Knight, Nicky Shorey, Luke Young, Curtis Davies, Nigel Reo-Coker, Carlos Cuellar... The list goes on.

 
And dare we even mention Gary Cahill? Shipped out to Bolton Wanderers as surplus while a host of replacement centre-halves were ushered in and wheeled out. What happened to Cahill? Oh yes, he's now an England regular and has won the Champions League with Chelsea.

 
Furthermore O'Neill makes no mention of the fact that his resignation - five days before the start of the season - left Villa in a holy mess.

 
So, yes, those of us left behind have spoken to - and seen - people like chief executive Paul Faulkner - and Lerner on occasion.

 
We know what they had to go through to clear up the debris that was left behind in the Irishman's wake. Why should that not be taken into consideration when adding up all positive and negatives?
 Lerner and Faulkner were left in an almighty stew in the week leading up to the first game of the season.

 
The effect of that cannot be over-stated. Yes, Gerard Houllier spent more in the season that followed. But Darren Bent was signed six months later purely to safeguard the club's Premier League status.

So, Martin, if you want an acknowledgement that you did a decent job at Villa Park - you've got it.

 
But surely there should have been an acknowledgement too of the resources that he was handed which allowed him to make such massive impact in the transfer market.

 
O'Neill was good. He was good for Villa. But come on, let's have some perspective. Martin O'Neill wasn't the greatest manager Aston Villa ever seen.

 
If he wants to be judged purely on results - any manager's ultimate defence - Atkinson achieved more.


Indeed, Little trumps the lot of them. But we are talking about the Premier League era. Football was not invented by a satellite television company. It should not go unremarked upon that this week was Ron Saunders' 80th birthday.

 
So, in Premier League terms, O'Neill's the third in the list by my reckoning. Not third-class. Not by a long stretch. That would be disrespectful. But, as the facts of history show, not top of the class either.