The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[Ger Regan]

All managers buy stinkers, it happens.

The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.

Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.

[eastie]

Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.

Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?

The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.

Very true indeed.

[Percy McCarthy]

I sort of admire a manager who realises his signings haven't worked and, in essence, admits a mistake by not playing them. I think it's probably preferable to those managers who pick their own signings week after week just because they signed them. I just wish, having made his mind up, he'd have got rid of them quicker. Look how many ended up going on frees.

[pedro25]

We felt like a big club though, we were buying quality young English players, we had 5/6 players in each England squad, our front 6 of Young Milner Petrov Downing Carew and Gabby was probably the best we'd had for 20 years.  Warnock, Collins, Dunne etc look like bad buys now, but look what M'ON got out of them, they were fantastic in their first yr, Warnock edged Baines out of the England squad and Dunne's form meant that losing Laursen wasn't the end of the world it could have been.

[Percy McCarthy]

True.

[paul_e]

All managers buy stinkers, it happens.

The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.

Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.

I wouldn't say panic buying, it was that he fell into the trap of so many safe purchases.  There were so few signings where the 'premier league experience' wasn't a key requirement.  Carew maybe but seeing as that was a swap suggested by Houllier not the other way round you left with no one except maybe Guzan who signed from outside the UK and got any meaningful game time for him.

We weren't a big enough draw to get the very best players in the league though, so we ended up signing a lot of player who were above average in mid-table or bottom-half sides, and paying a premium in fees for them.  Add on the strange approach to wage negotiations and you're looking at, for all the money spent, only a small number who were ever going to go for a profit (Young, Milner, Downing and not many others).  That's the short-term thinking I have a problem with.  I don't know if things would have turned out differently if he hadn't left, I doubt we'd have dropped as far as we did but, looking back, I don't see what he was going to do once the players started to run down contracts and walk away.  I'm fairly sure him leaving was that he saw the same lack of a long-term solution and didn't see how he could keep up the top 6 finishes so he ran whilst his stock was high.

[ktvillan]

Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.

Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?

The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.

In the early days, I think we saw the words "billionaire owner" and thought we were going to do a Chelsea.

To be fair the club seemed to be encouraging a certain level of expectation at the time with all that talk of IMG's influence with top players and sponsors etc.  I at least anticipated a couple of reasonably big names would come in during the first proper window, maybe a few up and coming players from abroad.  Then after initial promise when he signed Young and Carew, he pulled Harewood out of the bag.  Wow.  Followed by other less than inspiring signings.   My disappointment would only have been heightened had I know at the time how much he'd agreed to pay this level of player.  The road to the top 4 was never going to be paved with players like that.  And thanks to MON and RL  we can no longer afford the ones who might get us there.

[MoetVillan]

whoa, its thanks to RL that we can afford to buy anyone at all.  Im not saying (far from it) that he has spent his money wisely each time, but it is his money, you can argue about our revenue covering some, but we have lost money and lost money alone for three years.  And he is paying for that.  Until we or someone else steps in, I think its tough to blame him for how he spends his money.  As for the legend, I have to admit i was a happy clapper.  I liked getting to cup semi and finals and languishing in the top six year after year.  I loved the highpoint of when Milner, Young and Downing all were on form at the same time for a coupld of matches, and nobody could get near them.  I enjoyed a string of clean sheets.  But, we could be bloody boring, you can call it grinding out a result, but sometimes it was painful.  And some signings were terrible.  The fact that we had pages of wittering about the value of Reo-coker who is a merely average squad player tells me how far our expectations had fallen.  And i fell into the trap of thinking he was prudent with his signings when in the cold light of day you look back at value for money and wages.  Not a legend for me, more like an expensive night out on champagne, all of a sudden you feel brilliant, and cant see from the outside that you are not as good with the ladies or at dancing as you think you are, because you are having such a good time.  Then next morning mr champagne has fucked off leaving you rough as shit and with a stinking big bar bill

[Sexual Ealing]

A fair asessment.

[Eigentor]

Leave aside that GH was a failure, but he was right in his assessment that the way forward was to dismantle the squad and start anew -- and not to build on what MON left behind.

[Percy McCarthy]

Fair enough, but he should have been more pragmatic and timed it better. From the outside, it looked like the players knew they had no future at the club months before he could get rid of them or get replacements.

[pedro25]

All managers buy stinkers, it happens.

The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.

Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.

I wouldn't say panic buying, it was that he fell into the trap of so many safe purchases.  There were so few signings where the 'premier league experience' wasn't a key requirement.  Carew maybe but seeing as that was a swap suggested by Houllier not the other way round you left with no one except maybe Guzan who signed from outside the UK and got any meaningful game time for him.

We weren't a big enough draw to get the very best players in the league though, so we ended up signing a lot of player who were above average in mid-table or bottom-half sides, and paying a premium in fees for them.  Add on the strange approach to wage negotiations and you're looking at, for all the money spent, only a small number who were ever going to go for a profit (Young, Milner, Downing and not many others).  That's the short-term thinking I have a problem with.  I don't know if things would have turned out differently if he hadn't left, I doubt we'd have dropped as far as we did but, looking back, I don't see what he was going to do once the players started to run down contracts and walk away.  I'm fairly sure him leaving was that he saw the same lack of a long-term solution and didn't see how he could keep up the top 6 finishes so he ran whilst his stock was high.

Safe buys is right, he wouldn't even take small risks, he could have had L Young from Charlton for £2.5mill but he waited for him to have another good season at M'boro then signed him for £6mill.  There was little risk in signing him, Friedel, NRC etc., but it would have been nice to take a chance on someone lesser known.  Although whilst there was money there to buy players it wasn't endless and he had to get the right players, we couldn't just go out and buy another player in that position like Man City can now.  It took about 2 years to get a right back, we had only A Young as a winger on the books for one season before Milner then Downing arrived, I remember NRC haing to play right mid/wing quite a bit one year, and even towards the end of his tenure, whilst we had a strong 1st 11 we only had Sidwell and Heskey on the books as senior options for the front 6 positions, which may be one reason he didn't make many early subs (although that was still annoying).

[pauliewalnuts]

I'm not really sure stepping away from Luke Young so he could have another decent season at Boro at the expense of him costing 3.5m more is an indicator of a well thought out transfer policy.

You're right, it was safe, but it was also nuts and extremely expensive.

[ktvillan]

whoa, its thanks to RL that we can afford to buy anyone at all.  Im not saying (far from it) that he has spent his money wisely each time, but it is his money, you can argue about our revenue covering some, but we have lost money and lost money alone for three years.  And he is paying for that.  Until we or someone else steps in, I think its tough to blame him for how he spends his money.  As for the legend, I have to admit i was a happy clapper.  I liked getting to cup semi and finals and languishing in the top six year after year.  I loved the highpoint of when Milner, Young and Downing all were on form at the same time for a coupld of matches, and nobody could get near them.  I enjoyed a string of clean sheets.  But, we could be bloody boring, you can call it grinding out a result, but sometimes it was painful.  And some signings were terrible.  The fact that we had pages of wittering about the value of Reo-coker who is a merely average squad player tells me how far our expectations had fallen.  And i fell into the trap of thinking he was prudent with his signings when in the cold light of day you look back at value for money and wages.  Not a legend for me, more like an expensive night out on champagne, all of a sudden you feel brilliant, and cant see from the outside that you are not as good with the ladies or at dancing as you think you are, because you are having such a good time.  Then next morning mr champagne has fucked off leaving you rough as shit and with a stinking big bar bill

As I understand it the money Lerner's put in is largely only loaned to Villa.  I don't think he should escape his share of the criticism as a so-called businessman for allowing the wages to get to the unsustainable level compared to turnover that O'Neill was allowed to take them to. 

[pedro25]

You're right it wasn't as positive as safe, more over cautious, I wouldn't say nuts though, at the time I can't say i was unhappy with any of his signings except Harewood and Heskey, albeit some turned out worse than expected under M'ON, Sidwell, Davies etc., and others performed well for him but not subsequent managers, Dunne, Collins , Warnock.  But really signing A Young, Davies, Milner, Delph etc. was exciting, mixed in with the likes of Cuellar, Carew, Friedel we seemed to be signing a good blend of experienced players and young talent, a few real coups for the club,  albeit it was costing serious money.