The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[damon loves JT]

For me the whole of the last two-and-a-bit seasons has just been an extension of walloping west ham at home and then losing 6-0 at Newcastle. That horrible sensation of not really knowing what was coming next, but suspecting that it would probably be something bad.

[kingshirker]

http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/

Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.

I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.

But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.

That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans.  I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?

[hawkeye]

Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?

They didn't say that though.  There were many, many people who thought the son shone out of his arse, and those not joining in with the adulation and who pointed out the stupidity of the majority of his signings plus his dull football suffered dog's abuse.

Quite right, Risso.

I woud rather we hadnt set off down this road, but i have to say, i recall a few of us pointing out under MON that the football we played at home was one dimensional and predictable, that MON would not move us on, that his transfer policy was myopic, halfarsed and lazy, that he was spunking money on players we'd laugh at if rivals bought them, that he had no idea of tactics beyond getting the ball out to wingers and hoping for the best.

A few of us also pointed out that the ticking time bomb wasn't so much the fees but the wage bill.

It's all very well MON fans moaning they never thought he was the messiah, and that they didn't like being called happy clappers but I recall those of us who pointed out the above getting all sorts of abuse, being called misery arsed doom merchants, that we were nuts to be pointing these things out.

I recall "I'll take the opinion of a successful football manager over a load of Internet geeks, thank you very much" getting trotted out too.

Funny how things turn out, what with us being proved correct on all points.

Spot on, I dont suppose we can expect those that were worshiping at the Alter of the Beloved Martin, to hold thier hands up any time soon then.

[QBVILLA]

http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/

Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.

I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.

But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.

That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans.  I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?

Personally I think MoN's time with us produced more positives than negatives and given time I think he'll get it right but you may have a decent point regarding his mate Robertson being a factor.

[kingshirker]

http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/

Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.

I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.

But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.

That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans.  I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?

Should have added: great parodies of the O'Neill post-match e-mail

[Monty]

Hello Kingshirker.

The thing about MON is that he needs to spend far greater-than-average money in order to achieve slightly better-than-average results. This is mostly because he has to be the least imaginative manager in the transfer market out there (seriously, I rate McLeish above him - McLeish signs some good players, just has no idea what to do with them). He will willingly pay the absurd premiums for flavour-of-the-month British or British-based names, never seeming to care about the amount of money he's wasting. He spent £50m across two summers building two different defences for us, sprees which included £10m on Curtis Davies, £8m on Cuellar and £6-7m on Stephen Warnock. That's just one example.

Also, he has this stubborn streak which seems too have become an utter unwillingness to learn or deviate at all from anything he's ever done. His football - always functional and limited - now just looks absurdly anachronistic. If he can't spend £100m on it, his style will yield little besides sterility. But he will never change, he will never attempt to modernise his style, he will never value technique as much as industry or intelligence as much as pace and power. He'll certainly not buy from Abroad, as Abroad is the scary place where these things are valued. He is, or at least has been, an inspirational man-manager, but a lot of that comes from the fact that he never rotates - meaning half the squad end up hating him for never giving them a chance, no matter how out-of-form his favourite in the first XI is - and that his training regime is minimal at best - there was a recent revelation that our players would sometimes not be asked to train until Thursdays during the week. So, if you think this is bad, wait for the customary March burnout, where his overplayed, undertrained favourites will be exhausted beyond the reach of man-management rescues. And don't expect him to change the team after that either.

I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was. I wasn't quite as blind as some - I could see the limited football, the unimaginative signings - but for some reason convinced myself that he was going to change. Some on here saw through the mask though, and more power to them, and your fans booing, for all that I don't get onside with that sort of thing, shows that a good number of them have seen the Emperor's nudity early on, and for your sake I hope that drives him out earlier than he would usually flounce off.

[Percy McCarthy]

hawkeye 'wrote': I don't suppose we can expect those who were worshiping(sic) at the Alter(sic) of the Beloved Martin to hold thier(sic) hands up any time soon then.

I doubt it, as they don't exist. People who thought he was a good manager have commented though.

PS: sorted your punctuation for you, didn't have time to do the spelling. What do they teach them at school these days?

[TonyD]

First they came for the people who were mildly critical of Martin O'Neill...

Incorrect.   First they came for people who didn't stand and cheer for MON.
It was a little later that they came for people who were mildy critical.

I had a knock on the door about a season in - but then again I was openly critical from very early on.

[Irish villain]

For me the whole of the last two-and-a-bit seasons has just been an extension of walloping west ham at home and then losing 6-0 at Newcastle. That horrible sensation of not really knowing what was coming next, but suspecting that it would probably be something bad.

Excellent description and hanging on desperately for a result like that Everton game under Kevin Mac.

[Irish villain]

http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/

 Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?

Didn't villa players refer to Robertson and Walford as 'bibs and cones'? Not sure how great Robertson was but perhaps he helped bring out the best in MON so, it could be a factor.

[Percy McCarthy]

My goodness, there's a few on here who are very touchy that somebody disagreed with them at some point. Perhaps a discussion board is not really the ideal place for them to offer opinions?

[Jarpie]

http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/

Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.

I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.

But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.

That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans.  I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?

MON isn't horrible manager, just very limited one. He burned a lot of money on overpaid and very average players. You should really expect very average "proven" UK signings, I bet he's already looking at bringing McGeady from Russia.

As I watched our game against Sunderland on saturday, I saw a lot of same problems in your game as we had in ours when he was Villa's manager but he managed to scrape through then because Premier league was somewhat less competitive back then, and game has changed a bit in the last 3-4 years.

I got so frustated with his transfers and tactics when he was still our manager that I was actually glad that he left (but not the way he did leave).

And I agree with everything Montbert said, if I were you I would really brace for very bad 2-3 months in the spring given that we always had that with him, I fear Sunderland is really a candidate going down unless he leaves or gets fired in january latest, and as Montbert, I do feel for you lot.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Hello Kingshirker.

I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.

That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.

As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.

From the man himself:

'With regards to us here at Villa, we have a way. Steve Walford will do most of the day-to-day training. I would say that I watch more than I actually talk out there. Then, I will discuss my thoughts with Martin. And he has the final say because that's his right and that's his job.

[glasses]

Hello Kingshirker.

I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.

That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.

As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.

The players were all still paid the same when O'Neill left though, yet never since has there been the same togetherness shown. It can't just have been about money. the 'Us against them' style mentality that Monty is getting at was down to O'Neill, and that, at least with regards to some of the results we achieved, can be a good thing.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Hello Kingshirker.

I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.

That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.

As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.

The players were all still paid the same when O'Neill left though, yet never since has there been the same togetherness shown. It can't just have been about money. the 'Us against them' style mentality that Monty is getting at was down to O'Neill, and that, at least with regards to some of the results we achieved, can be a good thing.

Maybe that togetherness stopped when Houllier started to consider players outside the same old 14. It was like signing 10 new players.