The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[eastie]

I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.

It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum.   Ellis went, phew, what a relief.   O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP.  What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.

Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.

Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .

So how come we didn't have a pot to piss in when Ellis left?

, did we have a decent stadium?

Did we win two Wembley finals in the 90s and finish  runners up twice having come close to winning the league ?

The answer to all of these is yes - he had his faults but he wouldn't have made the mistakes Lerner has in the last 2 years .

He treated the manager of our greatest moment disgracefully. Barry Fry and small heath showed more respect to Barton than Ellis ever did. He relegated us. He thought Graham Turner and Billy McNeill were good enough to manage Villa. He sanctioned the signing of a lot of overpaid players, especially under Gregory. He named Witton Lane after himself. He cocked up building it. He destroyed the Trinity Road. We were heading for relegation a second time under him until Lerner stepped in. We didn't have a pot to piss in when he sold us to Lerner.

Like I said Ellis had his faults but it wasn't all bad under him by any means -you mention turner and McNeill but you don't mention Taylor, little and Atkinson.

Doug made many mistakes but he also did many good things .

You say we were heading for relegation before lerner stepped in , Are we really much better off with Lerner - I doubt it!

[PeterWithesShin]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

[Monty]

He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.

I was chuffed when we got MON as manager but can't say I ever found him likeable.    His so called wit, charm and intelligence always came across to me as vindictiveness, arrogance, snideness and defensiveness, and I said as much while he was still our manager.  He's about as likeable as Malcolm Tucker.  I can't say Lambert comes across as particularly likeable either, but then I can barely understand a word he says.   

That's unfair I think, Malcolm Tucker is likeable in his own way.

As an amused onlooker yes, in the same way that I can now kind of like watching MON being a tw*t as he's no longer any thing to do with us.

That's true. It's more fun watching him piss in someone else's tent.

[saunders_heroes]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

[PeterWithesShin]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

[Ad@m]

It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.

He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.

On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.

And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.

If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.

[dave.woodhall]

Ellis was a lucky chairman. When we were bad Blues were worse. When we were skint along came Sky, flotation and NTL. When we were relegated Sir Graham appointed us. As for him not over-spending, remember the problems Gregory caused. As was said at the time, we were a couple more Balabans away from becoming Sheffield Wednesday. 

[saunders_heroes]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94.  To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.

[saunders_heroes]

It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.

He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.

On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.

And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.

If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.

You can't have it both ways. If you are to blame him for the bad times then by default you have to credit him with the good times as well.

[garyshawsknee]

It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.

He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.

On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.

And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.

If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.

Well said that man. In my time of supporting Villa(since early 80s)we were lucky to only go down once,and Doug's terrible appointments were the cause when we did go down.

[dave.woodhall]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94.  To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.

We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.

[eastie]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94.  To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.

We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.

We also finished above man utd and Liverpool under him in our respective runners up seasons, he was good and bad , not just bad.

[saunders_heroes]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94.  To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.

We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.

I would if I knew him.

[paul_e]

Back on topic, surely the fact that, after a massive boost in investment, it's even possible to suggest that we'd have done as well or better under Doug suggests that MoN's transfer policy and Lerner's inexperience in handling the former have ruined our best chance to join 'the elite' for a long time.  For that reason alone he deserves any vitriol directed at him from Villa fans.  A better thought out, sustainable transfer policy in his time and we'd be in and the top 4 places still.

[saunders_heroes]

I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.

Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.

Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.

Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94.  To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.

We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.

We also finished above man utd and Liverpool under him in our respective runners up seasons, he was good and bad , not just bad.

That's the point I was trying to make.