0% Villa: Benitez sacked (Confirmed p.6)

[MoetVillan]

Id go with whatever gives us more points.  If thats predictable and boring, a-la Mourhinhos Chelsea, so be it

[peter w]

Id go with whatever gives us more points.  If thats predictable and boring, a-la Mourhinhos Chelsea, so be it

Mourinho's Chelsea won trophies. MOn's Villa win the Peace Cup and we went on about it as if it was a momentous part of our history.

[MoetVillan]

yeah.  remind me how many teams won trophies this year from the premier league.  I am pleased we won the peace cup.  Its not a recognised cup but it gives players experience of playing in finals and how to win.  My point was though that I would rather our team won or scored points in a boring fashion than played attractive football and got dicked.  My first choice would be attractive AND trophy winning football team, but lets get to the winning part first.

[Greg N'Ash]

From a scouse site (Warning this post my contain bindipper views of an upsetting nature to some readers)


LFC needs a *motivator*, and MARTIN'O NEILL is the man to replace RAFA BENITEZ

On the 30th May 2004 (before Rafa Benitez was appointed), I wrote a post on ThisIsAnfield.com arguing that  Martin O Neill should get the Manager's job ahead of Rafa Benitez and Jose Mourinho. 6 years later and my view has not changed; and now that Benitez is finally leaving, the need for a manager who is able to inspire and motivate is more pressing than ever.

I have posted variations of this article several times over the years, and my message remains the same: There is only one candidate for the Liverpool job, and that is Martin O'Neill.

Regular visitors to this site over the years will know how passionately (and regularly!) I have argued in favour of his appointment, and I know that he is the preferred choice of the Anfield hierarchy. O'Neill is also the bookies current favourite to take the job.

The key point here about  O'Neill is this: wherever he has managed, he has taken the team as far as it is realistically possible to go (taking into account players at his disposal, transfer budgets etc).

What O'Neill's detractors fail to accept is context: You have to consider the quality of teams he's managed; the money available; the quality of player the team is able to attract; the status of the team etc. The, you need to ask an important question: What is the best his teams could hope to achieve? (Given their relative status/resources etc). Looking at things fairly, you will see that O'Neill has regularly done the best it is possible to do at every club he's managed.

Wycombe Wanders

Took them out of non-league football and into Division 2 (via successive promotions) in under 4 years. For a club of Wycombe's size, the best they can ever realistically hope for is Division 2, which is borne out by the fact that since O'Neill left, they have never risen higher than that.

Leicester City

Promoted to the Premier league in his first season, after which they finished ninth in 1997, tenth in 1998 and 1999, and eighth in 2000, outstanding results for a newly promoted team, and the highest that Leicester City could ever hope to climb in the top league. In fact, their league positions were arguably an overachievement.

O'Neill also took Leicester City to the League Cup final 3 times in 4 years, winning twice along the way, a by-product of which was European football in the UEFA Cup.

Liverpool fans may scoff at the league cup, but as I stated earlier, you have to consider the context, quality of the team/players, and the resources available.

Celtic

In O'Neill's first season, Celtic won the domestic treble. He was the first Celtic manager to take the team into the revamped Champions League, something he achieved three times. He also took Celtic to the 2003 UEFA Cup Final in Seville, which was lost in extra time to a Porto side coached by...José Mourinho.

In his five seasons at Celtic Park, O'Neill won three League titles, three Scottish Cups, and a League Cup. He also oversaw a record 7 consecutive victories in Old Firm derbies, and in season 2003-04 Celtic created a British record of 25 consecutive victories.

Very impressive stuff. Yet people will tear this down by saying 'but it's only Scottish football'. Nonsense. As Celtic Managers post-O'Neill have discovered, you can't just turn up and expect everything to click into place - it takes managerial expertise, something O'Neill has in abundance.

Once again, O'Neill took a club to the very maximum of what they were capable of achieving. Is it realistic to expect a club like Celtic to win the Champions League? No. It hasn't happened in over 40 years, so there's no shame in Celtic's failure to win or reach the latter stages under O'Neill. The best a club of Celtic's stature/resources can hope to achieve is exactly what O'Neill achieved.

Aston Villa

Villa had the longest unbeaten start of any Premiership side in 2006-07 (9 games), not losing a league game until 28 October. Villa's final points tally was 50, an improvement of 8 over the previous season.

Villa just missed out on a UEFA Cup spot on the final day of the 2007-08 season by finishing 6th. They scored 71 goals, (their best ever tally in the Premier League and best tally since winning the title in 1981), gained 60 points which was Villa's highest points tally since the 1996-97 season, and were the 3rd highest goalscorers.

After 25 games of the 2008-09 season the club was third in the table on 51 points, 2 points above Chelsea on level games and 7 points above Arsenal in 5th place and on course for a place in the Champions League for the first time since 1983. Villa eventually finished 6th for the second season running with 62 points, 2 more points than they finished with the previous season.

In the season just finished, O'Neill continued his great work at the Villa, leading them to 6th place...ABOVE Liverpool.

Given the cash available to the top 4 clubs in England, is it realistic for Villa to establish themselves in the top 4? Arguably, no. So far, O'Neill has taken Aston Villa almost as high as it is possible for them to go in the league.

Villa: A second-tier team

Whether O'Neill's detractors choose to accept it or not, Villa is a second tier team, in the same bracket as the likes of Everton, Birmingham, Spurs and Manchester City. Villa cannot attract the like of Torres, Drogba, Arshavin etc - it can only attract lower grade players, the likes of Carew, Petrov etc. That is nothing to do with O'Neill, it is just the way Villa is perceived.

For over 25 years (until O'Neill arrived) they have been a mid-table team, even flirting with relegation on occasion. Why would the world's top players ignore man United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool to go to Villa, who has never qualified for the Champions League?

As such, O'Neill operates within certain restrictions. However, despite this, he has still managed to take Villa above Liverpool in the table.

What I am trying to get at here is this: O'Neill has a knack of taking every team he manages to apex of what they are able to achieve, and he uses the style of football that is inherent in that team to achieve success. Look at it another way: Given the expectations/resources available, could any other manager have done any better at Leicester, Wycombe, Celtic, or even Aston Villa?

At Liverpool, I have no doubt at all that O'Neill would take the club to the apex of what it is able to achieve. He would bring three magic ingredients to the party that Benitez (IMO) seriously lacks: Effective man-management, motivation skills and the ability to INSPIRE.

Liverpool does not need to rebuild; the club does not need to throw tens of millions at the problem. First and foremost, what is needed now is a manager who will maximise the massive potential of the current squad, whilst adding 2-3 astute, quality additions to enhance areas of the team that are currently lacking.

Liverpool has not had a motivator in the hotseat since Kenny Dalglish. Graeme Souness definitely wasn't a motivator; Roy Evans did his best but was a bit of a pushover; Houllier and Benitez were/are definitely not motivators. There is definitely a correlation between Liverpool's lack of league success and not having a motivator at the helm.

If Liverpool miss out on O'Neill this time then he will inevitably be snapped up by Manchester United at some point, and that will signal another period of domestic dominance for them. The club cannot allow this to happen!

I truly believe O'Neill would rather come to Liverpool anyway. At United, he would have the intense pressure to continue their success. If he won the league there, it would be expected, and he probably wouldn't get the credit for it anyway as people would say it was Ferguson's squad/influence etc. There is (arguably) a greater challenge in *creating* success than simply maintaining it, something that I think O'Neill would find attractive.

At Liverpool, O'Neill would have the chance to really make his mark on a top club. The challenge is greater and arguably more rewarding, especially given the club's failure to win the league for 20 years. And if you look at his career, he tends to gravitate towards clubs that have gone stale and are in need of serious rejuvenation.

That is Liverpool to a tee.

Granted, O'Neill is not a name that sets pulses racing, but was Bill Shankly? Bob Paisley? Joe Fagan? What had any of those three achieved in football (managerially) prior to managing Liverpool? Every time we've had a manager who comes with a big reputation the result has been (comparative) league failure: Souness, Houllier + Benitez. The exception is Dalglish, who had a big reputation as a player, but no managerial experience.

On a related note, Both Ferguson and Wenger were not big names that set pulses racing either when they joined their respective clubs. Ferguson was in the SPL; Wenger was in Japan (!) And what about Spurs with Redknapp - he'd never managed a 'big' club before, and look what happened.

The Redknapp case proves - IMO - the impact a motivator can have at a club. Before he arrived at the club, Spurs were flirting with the relegation zone. One season later and they're in the CL. They don't have players of the class of Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Mascherano etc - they have a decent squad, but Redknapp deserves all the praise - he motivated that team and look where it took them.

The same will happen with O'Neill at Liverpool, of that I have no doubt.

The Liverpool FC revolution began in 1959 with the ultimate motivator at the helm. Fifty years later and the true spirit of Shankly has almost been eradicated. It's time for rejuvenating change; it's time for Liverpool to drop the dry, joyless 'tactical' approach; it's time for the true spirit of Shankly to return.

And that means having a motivator and an inspirer in charge at Anfield.

[not3bad]

I'm really enjoying this debate on the relative merits of MON and am not finding it in the least a carbon copy of about 1,000,000 similar threads in the last few months.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Id go with whatever gives us more points.  If thats predictable and boring, a-la Mourhinhos Chelsea, so be it

Mourinho's Chelsea won trophies. MOn's Villa win the Peace Cup and we went on about it as if it was a momentous part of our history.

I think you'll find it was Kevin McDonald's Villa that won the Peace Cup.
MON's Villa got stuffed in the first game against a Mallaga team that had returned from holiday a few days before.

[MoetVillan]

Out of interest, how well do the fans and detractors realistically think a Liverpool team would fare under ONeill.  Back into Top 4?  Remaining as a Europa team, Challenging for honours?  If its one of the better ones, by default, would it be a bad move for Villa to lose him?

[eastie]

Just reAding the new martin o neil biography just published and it seems dalglish was director of football at Celtic when mon went there and he played a major role in attracting mon-hands twitching yet chris?

[pauliewalnuts]

"in the same bracket as Birmingham"?

What a ******.

[MoetVillan]

Paulie, surely you have spoken to Liverpool fans at some point?  Or listened to Alan Green on Radio 5?  I wouldnt expect anything other than a comment like that.

[TheSandman]

Out of interest, how well do the fans and detractors realistically think a Liverpool team would fare under ONeill.  Back into Top 4?  Remaining as a Europa team, Challenging for honours?  If its one of the better ones, by default, would it be a bad move for Villa to lose him?

Genuinely, I think they would get back into the top four and possibly win one of the lesser trophies such as the league cup or Europa League. if they did not lose any of their key players such as Torres, Gerrard or Mascherano. I do think that is their capability with any manager worth his salt. What I'm not sure Martin can do is what Liverpool need in the longer term and that is to reshape their squad under a new owner and get the club back as bona fide challengers for the Champions League and I'm saying that as a fan.

In the article greg posted from the Liverpool fan the key point of that I agree with is that he has taken us as far as we can go. We lack the wealth of a Man City, the Champions League football of the top four sides as well as the cachet and absolutely top class players of the big three and Liverpool. These factors mean that we are the sixth place side and that without a massive star coming through the youth system or an undiscovered gem being bought in who can fire us to the next level on the playing side or us finding one of the few better managers than MoN on te managerial side we are condemned to what we are.

[Risso]

"in the same bracket as Birmingham"?

What a c***.

For over 25 years (until O'Neill arrived) they have been a mid-table team, even flirting with relegation on occasion

We've also flirted with the title in that time, and definitely haven't been a mid table club for most of the Premier League years.

Our last title victory only came 9 years before theirs.  ******.

[TheSandman]

Just reAding the new martin o neil biography just published and it seems dalglish was director of football at Celtic when mon went there and he played a major role in attracting mon-hands twitching yet chris?

He also appointed John Barnes and I'm hopeful of a similarly poor appointment.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Interesting article and you have to agree that MON would most certainly bring excellent motivation to any side he manages, something obviously lacking under Benitez.

What the dimwit fails to see is the things Benitez brought to Liverpool that MON wouldn't, or at least not as well. He also fails to mention the fact that Liverpool are up Shit Creek and only a lunatic would go there at the moment.

[Concrete John]

as for being sussed out - well yes and no. teams double up on Ash and know we are pacy so defend deeper without doubt. yet, teams know Tottenham also, and man City, Everton, etc but over a season the better teams overcome these issues and wwin more games than not. Yes, you get the odd result or two that go against you, but in the main class shows. We have not had much of an idea at home how to overcome sides sitting in against us at home all season. And as for some games like Wolves, Sunderland, West Ham, Wigan, apart from some spells the away side have looked like they could play us on an even playing field. That's not just 'the odd team' that's having a lack of beleif, and an idea in what we're doing, and the lack of balance to win games, and the lack of identifying our match winner and attempting to supply him as much as possible. instead we played to teh same system week in week out. It only works so far.

I wouldn't expect either Man City or Spurs to be 'found out' given the newness of their managers and large influx of new players.

As for us, you're right that it's easy to nullify our main attacking attributes by double teaming Young and sitting deep.  However, you've previously commented on switching Ash around being a bad thing, yet might that not be the managers way of trying to avoid such double teaming?