Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: eastie on December 22, 2013, 01:09:34 PM
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Paul Lambert has hailed Randy Lerner as the best chairman he's worked under.
Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Lambert praised Robbie Cowling, his former boss at Colchester.
But the 44-year-old picked out Lerner as No.1 due - in great part - to his understanding during the tough festive season one year ago.
Lambert said Lerner not only appreciated the pain of defeat after defeat after defeat but also the magnitude of the long haul job facing him.
He said: "It's easy to sit here and say your chairman is really good because you think that will keep you in the job one week later.
"But I get on really well with him.
"He took over in 2006. The stadium is fantastic. Look at the training ground too.
"He has plummeted one heck of a lot of money into the club - on and off the pitch. There has to be that respect. He's been great to work with too.
"When I came in, he told me it would be my hardest year in management. He was right. He was totally right. If you come through that, you come through most things.
"He knew the magnitude of it, on and off the field.
"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. He knew it would be a major haul.
"I remember when he rang me after the Chelsea game. He said 'how are you?' He phones me after every match. We speak regularly.
"I don't think I could have got away with 'we were unlucky.' But he tells you how it is. If you're that successful in business, you don't tread on eggshells.
"No-one was happy about losing. But there was the human side of him, that's his way. He knew what we were going through.
"He watches everything, every game.
"He's a good guy - the best chairman I've worked with, no doubt, definitely. Robbie Cowling was good. But Randy is probably the best."
Of course, this past week has seen the departure of bosses Andres Villas-Boas and Steve Clarke from Tottenham and West Brom respectively.
Lambert thinks time is not a friendly quality for managers these days.
He added: "It's unforgiving. You used to get a few games to turn it around, now it's one or two matches!
"They say 'get him out, we will get someone else.'
"Then the same problems keep starting. Money starts turning over and over. How do you stabilise it?
"It's incredible. It's impossible. It can't keep going the way it's going.
"Look at the amount of managers that have lost their jobs, it's incredible. It really is. It's incredible the football world.
"You get no respite. You used to get a right few games before pressure now you only have virtually one game. It's ridiculous. It's not right."
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The Villa Park redevelopment was all done during Doug's reign - there's been no expansion of the stadium in the last seven years. The only difference is the Holte Pub refurb.
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Lerner completed the training ground to a spec that Deadly wouldn't finance. Lerners put in the dollar bills, unfortunately he has a habbit of hiring the wrong person in both American and our Football.
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
Jeez. Some things make you look open-gobbed in astonishment and this is one of them.
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And if many had their way, he certainly wouldn't be any more.
Wenger, Pardew, Jol, Allardyce and Bruce the ones with longer tenure?
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And if many had their way, he certainly wouldn't be any more.
Wenger, Pardew, Jol, Allardyce and Bruce the ones with longer tenure?
Jol is gone.
Mackay maybe the other one at least for a few more hours .
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
I must have read that over and over again to make sure I really ready what I thought I read. That's quite ridiculous.
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Brendan Rodgers was appointed just before Lambert, I think.
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Does that include managers whose clubs weren't in the Premier League when he was appointed, such as Mackay?
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
Jeez. Some things make you look open-gobbed in astonishment and this is one of them.
Alan Pardew is second longest-serving behind Wenger and he has been at Newcastle three years.
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Does that include managers whose clubs weren't in the Premier League when he was appointed, such as Mackay?
Wenger, pardew, Rodgers, Bruce and mackay - are they the five ?
If so then yes Bruce and mackay have not long been promoted.
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The Villa Park redevelopment was all done during Doug's reign - there's been no expansion of the stadium in the last seven years. The only difference is the Holte Pub refurb.
Villa Park is hugely different on the inside to how it looked when Doug sold the club.
The Holte Suite has been completely redeveloped, almost every corporate facility in the Trinity Road Stand has been redeveloped, the tunnel area has been redeveloped, there's the new club shop on Witton Lane, the giant TV in the Holte End car park wasn't there when Doug was around I think, the William McGregor statue (and yes, I know Randy didn't pay for that but I'm sure he sanctioned it - DW will correct me if I'm wrong), VMF, I believe the Corner Flag Restaurant has been refurbished although I've not been in recently, etc, etc.
But Randy's major infrastructure legacy if he left tomorrow would be Bodymoor. That's widely regarded as being one of the best facilities of its kind in the country.
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Didn't randy fund the redevelopment of the indoor pitches, etc next to ground as part of the academy revamp? I might be wrong.
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Managers by their date of appointment:
Wenger (30/09/96)
Pardew (6/12/10)
Allardyce (1/06/11)
Mackay (17/06/11)
Rodgers (1/06/12)
Lambert (2/06/12)
Bruce (8/06/12)
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Managers by their date of appointment:
Wenger (30/09/96)
Pardew (6/12/10)
Allardyce (1/06/11)
Mackay (17/06/11)
Rodgers (1/06/12)
Lambert (2/06/12)
Bruce (8/06/12)
He'll probably be the fourth in the list very soon. Can't see Mackay or Allardyce being in their jobs too much longer.
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Managers by their date of appointment:
Wenger (30/09/96)
Pardew (6/12/10)
Allardyce (1/06/11)
Mackay (17/06/11)
Rodgers (1/06/12)
Lambert (2/06/12)
Bruce (8/06/12)
Lambert just ahead of Bruce then although I wouldn't be surprised to see mackay and big sam depart very soon .
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So Lambert will go 5th soon given the situation in Cardiff and I wouldn't be surprised if Big Sam is gone before the end of the season.
That stat alone should be reason enough to stick with Lambert a little longer and see how he can evolve the strategy going forward, as I said on the other thread where you posted this I'm pretty sure that both Lambert and Lerner entered in to this thinking it was going to take a few years to get where we want to be. Things aren't great right now but I don't think it's in the long-term benefit of the club to abandon the plan now. What the numbers show more than anything is that the entire nature of the premier league is built around short term thinking and doesn't lend itself well to trying to build around youth like we are, which is why no one has tried it before.
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Thought about it long and hard and can't see the point in sacking him. Unless we lose v palace then he can pack his bags :D
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
Jeez. Some things make you look open-gobbed in astonishment and this is one of them.
On the face of it that stat does look horrendous but football today isn't what it was. The 'manager' in this context is very often now the Head Coach working underneath a Director of Football. Where this works well a change in the Head Coach isn't as fundamental as it used to be as the DoF keeps things going in the same strategic direction set out at the top of the club.
Back in the day when a football manager took entire control of all footballing matters it was a much bigger upheaval to sack one and I daresay that meant managers probably got given more time by Chairmen because it was a bigger risk for them. In the DoF era, sacking your Head Coach carries much less risk.
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Personally, I like the fact that managers get sacked regularly. Look at Chelsea, they've done alright recently.
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The Villa Park redevelopment was all done during Doug's reign - there's been no expansion of the stadium in the last seven years. The only difference is the Holte Pub refurb.
Villa Park is hugely different on the inside to how it looked when Doug sold the club.
The Holte Suite has been completely redeveloped, almost every corporate facility in the Trinity Road Stand has been redeveloped, the tunnel area has been redeveloped, there's the new club shop on Witton Lane, the giant TV in the Holte End car park wasn't there when Doug was around I think, the William McGregor statue (and yes, I know Randy didn't pay for that but I'm sure he sanctioned it - DW will correct me if I'm wrong), VMF, I believe the Corner Flag Restaurant has been refurbished although I've not been in recently, etc, etc.
But Randy's major infrastructure legacy if he left tomorrow would be Bodymoor. That's widely regarded as being one of the best facilities of its kind in the country.
It's what bothers me the most when some people say he doesn't care or he's given up. Yes, the football isn't right yet, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't care. He's trusting Lambert to get it right, as well as getting the finances fixed at the same time. It takes time and when we come out of it we'll on so much a better financial footing. Behind the scenes the club does look amazing and there is such is such attention to detail. I don't think for second he has turned a blind eye to the football side but that just takes a but longer to put right than items made of bricks and mortar.
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Personally, I like the fact that managers get sacked regularly. Look at Chelsea, they've done alright recently.
Yes because Chelsea or Man City is comparable to most other clubs where they can get a new manager, and still spend £30-40m on the best players to keep winning.
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The Villa Park redevelopment was all done during Doug's reign - there's been no expansion of the stadium in the last seven years. The only difference is the Holte Pub refurb.
Villa Park is hugely different on the inside to how it looked when Doug sold the club.
The Holte Suite has been completely redeveloped, almost every corporate facility in the Trinity Road Stand has been redeveloped, the tunnel area has been redeveloped, there's the new club shop on Witton Lane, the giant TV in the Holte End car park wasn't there when Doug was around I think, the William McGregor statue (and yes, I know Randy didn't pay for that but I'm sure he sanctioned it - DW will correct me if I'm wrong), VMF, I believe the Corner Flag Restaurant has been refurbished although I've not been in recently, etc, etc.
But Randy's major infrastructure legacy if he left tomorrow would be Bodymoor. That's widely regarded as being one of the best facilities of its kind in the country.
The statue was originally match-funded by Randy. Doug originally gave the go-ahead after several years of boardoom pithering around due to directors coming and going, then when Randy arrived the general rightaway said "You got it." We'd almost reached the target (or rather, the halfway point at which Randy would put the other half), when he said we'd done enough and he'd cover the shortfall. There are two people without whom the statue would still be a nice idea. Peter Warillow is one, Randy is the other.
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Personally, I like the fact that managers get sacked regularly. Look at Chelsea, they've done alright recently.
Yes because Chelsea or Man City is comparable to most other clubs where they can get a new manager, and still spend £30-40m on the best players to keep winning.
It helps, yes, but it's not all about who has the most money. Managers need to be able to get the best out of their squad.
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Does that include managers whose clubs weren't in the Premier League when he was appointed, such as Mackay?
Wenger, pardew, Rodgers, Bruce and mackay - are they the five ?
If so then yes Bruce and mackay have not long been promoted.
So three managers have been at a Premier League club longer than Lambert, and one of them was a matter of hours.
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Personally, I like the fact that managers get sacked regularly. Look at Chelsea, they've done alright recently.
Yes because Chelsea or Man City is comparable to most other clubs where they can get a new manager, and still spend £30-40m on the best players to keep winning.
It helps, yes, but it's not all about who has the most money. Managers need to be able to get the best out of their squad.
There's no denying that, but Lambert has been at the club around 18 months. Had he started where Martinez started at Everton and we were playing as we are I'd be with the majority asking serious questions. But his starting position was much, much worse.
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
Jeez. Some things make you look open-gobbed in astonishment and this is one of them.
On the face of it that stat does look horrendous but football today isn't what it was. The 'manager' in this context is very often now the Head Coach working underneath a Director of Football. Where this works well a change in the Head Coach isn't as fundamental as it used to be as the DoF keeps things going in the same strategic direction set out at the top of the club.
Back in the day when a football manager took entire control of all footballing matters it was a much bigger upheaval to sack one and I daresay that meant managers probably got given more time by Chairmen because it was a bigger risk for them. In the DoF era, sacking your Head Coach carries much less risk.
How many DOF are in operation in the premiership - I think there are quite a few managers who wouldn't work under those circumstances ?
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Personally, I like the fact that managers get sacked regularly. Look at Chelsea, they've done alright recently.
Yes because Chelsea or Man City is comparable to most other clubs where they can get a new manager, and still spend £30-40m on the best players to keep winning.
It helps, yes, but it's not all about who has the most money. Managers need to be able to get the best out of their squad.
There's no denying that, but Lambert has been at the club around 18 months. Had he started where Martinez started at Everton and we were playing as we are I'd be with the majority asking serious questions. But his starting position was much, much worse.
I hear what you're saying but there's no acceptable excuse for the recent performances IMO. He's lucky Lerner gives people time, a lot of other owners would've sacked him by now.
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Lambert was appointed by Lerner in June 2012 and is now the sixth longest-serving manager in the Barclays Premier League - and the 27th in England as a whole.
Truly shocking in how the PL owners treat their Managers.
Jeez. Some things make you look open-gobbed in astonishment and this is one of them.
On the face of it that stat does look horrendous but football today isn't what it was. The 'manager' in this context is very often now the Head Coach working underneath a Director of Football. Where this works well a change in the Head Coach isn't as fundamental as it used to be as the DoF keeps things going in the same strategic direction set out at the top of the club.
Back in the day when a football manager took entire control of all footballing matters it was a much bigger upheaval to sack one and I daresay that meant managers probably got given more time by Chairmen because it was a bigger risk for them. In the DoF era, sacking your Head Coach carries much less risk.
How many DOF are in operation in the premiership - I think there are quite a few managers who wouldn't work under those circumstances ?
Not many but the trend is certainly for an increasing number of DoFs, just like the trend is for managers/head coaches to last less and less time in the job.
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It's interesting how often Chairmen sack their managers without having a plan in place as to who is going to replace them either. I get pissed off with fans calling for the sack and then not having an answer for who they would give the job to, let alone the guy running the football club.
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It's interesting how often Chairmen sack their managers without having a plan in place as to who is going to replace them either. I get pissed off with fans calling for the sack and then not having an answer for who they would give the job to, let alone the guy running the football club.
Yes you would think it makes sense for a chairman to know who he wants to bring in rather than sack a manager and leave a club rudderless for weeks , some clubs do make very quick appointments but a lot don't seem to have anyone in mind.
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Occasionally they have a plan of who they'll get it but it doesn't quite transpire. We openly courted Martinez before McLeish, and OGS before getting Lambert.
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I'm not sure we openly courted either, from what I understand we encouraged both to meet with us under no guarantee that they'd be offered the job. Randy seems to want to meet with someone before he makes a decision.
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I'm not sure we openly courted either, from what I understand we encouraged both to meet with us under no guarantee that they'd be offered the job. Randy seems to want to meet with someone before he makes a decision.
We wanted Solskjaer.
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I'm not sure we openly courted either, from what I understand we encouraged both to meet with us under no guarantee that they'd be offered the job. Randy seems to want to meet with someone before he makes a decision.
We wanted Solskjær.
I also cling on to the faint hope that Randy at the very least wanted Martinez over McLeish. We were sadly very publicly rejected though. Saying that I think it was a year too soon for Martinez.
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It's interesting how often Chairmen sack their managers without having a plan in place as to who is going to replace them either. I get pissed off with fans calling for the sack and then not having an answer for who they would give the job to, let alone the guy running the football club.
Very true. Another one is when people say give Lambert time but never say how much.
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I'm not sure we openly courted either, from what I understand we encouraged both to meet with us under no guarantee that they'd be offered the job. Randy seems to want to meet with someone before he makes a decision.
We wanted Solskjær.
Almost certainly, and Lerner had met with him as we know so it went passed the point I mentioned, I think that one was an odd situation where he'd have been our manager but for some pretty dubious tactics by his chairman at Molde. So I'll concede on that one but I still think we'd have spoken to other people before it happened, and may well have already done so. To me openly courted suggests they were the first and only target and we weren't considering anyone else, which i don't think is the case.
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Solakjaer was their first choice, of that I'm certain.
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I'm not sure we openly courted either, from what I understand we encouraged both to meet with us under no guarantee that they'd be offered the job. Randy seems to want to meet with someone before he makes a decision.
Martinez was clearly plan A. Mcliesh was a fuck it he will do appointment.
We wanted Solskjær.
I also cling on to the faint hope that Randy at the very least wanted Martinez over McLeish. We were sadly very publicly rejected though. Saying that I think it was a year too soon for Martinez.
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Solakjaer was their first choice, of that I'm certain.
And there's something in me which still thinks he'd have been better. No evidence or anything really, just what he says about the game seems to chime more with what I think (which means precisely f**k-nothing, of course).
However, considering everything, Lambert hasn't done all that badly. Not a fun spell right now, but there is hope in a way there wasn't before.
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Solakjaer was their first choice, of that I'm certain.
If lambert did go and I doubt he will unless a very bad run of results are ahead , would you think Randy would make another attempt for solksjaer ?
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However, considering everything, Lambert hasn't done all that badly. Not a fun spell right now, but there is hope in a way there wasn't before.
That for me is the key. For DOL's entire reign, towards the end of MON, all of Le Gaffeur, and all of TSM's reign I had the feeling that what I was watching was the best we'd get under the manager at that time and that it was only going to get worse, or at best, stay the same. Initially under MON there was an optimism about the place that we were going in the right direction. Whilst I really don't like losing to the likes of Stoke and playing as badly as we did in the Sunderland home game I've got a similar feeling when Randy arrived and MON took over - I actually feel optimistic that things are going to get better.
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Solakjaer was their first choice, of that I'm certain.
If lambert did go and I doubt he will unless a very bad run of results are ahead , would you think Randy would make another attempt for solksjaer ?
No idea.
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Solakjaer was their first choice, of that I'm certain.
And there's something in me which still thinks he'd have been better. No evidence or anything really, just what he says about the game seems to chime more with what I think (which means precisely f**k-nothing, of course).
However, considering everything, Lambert hasn't done all that badly. Not a fun spell right now, but there is hope in a way there wasn't before.
I agree, I always thought solskjaer would have been a great appointment and his was the only name we were heavily linked with that I considered genuinely exciting. I do think Lambert has done ok though, I know a lot of things have been frustrating but I really believe that last season was an absolute requirement to get ourselves in a position to start progressing and I think without the injuries that have really knocked us this season we'd be 5-6 points better off and no one would be seriously questioning Lambert.
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Football is the only profession where decisions are made by people that are unqualified to make appointments of people that are unable to carry out the role.
The talent pool of football managers is extremely shallow, sack Lambert tomorrow and he will have another job within a month because there are so few "qualified" candidates. This does not mean he is a good or even competent manager, there are just so few options.
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Football is the only profession where decisions are made by people that are unqualified to make appointments of people that are unable to carry out the role.
The talent pool of football managers is extremely shallow, sack Lambert tomorrow and he will have another job within a month because there are so few "qualified" candidates. This does not mean he is a good or even competent manager, there are just so few options.
To a large extent that is because of the amount of pressure placed upon anyone taking the job. There are very few jobs that you can compare it to in terms of the external influences and pressure from stakeholders.
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Football is the only profession where decisions are made by people that are unqualified to make appointments of people that are unable to carry out the role.
The talent pool of football managers is extremely shallow, sack Lambert tomorrow and he will have another job within a month because there are so few "qualified" candidates. This does not mean he is a good or even competent manager, there are just so few options.
To a large extent that is because of the amount of pressure placed upon anyone taking the job. There are very few jobs that you can compare it to in terms of the external influences and pressure from stakeholders.
Dunno, when you look a the renumeration they get there are very few people out there that would turn it down. They only recruit ex footballers. There is no other profesion that would hire the likes of Sam Allardyce Peter Reid to handle multi millions of assets on the basis that they could kick a football.
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Football is the only profession where decisions are made by people that are unqualified to make appointments of people that are unable to carry out the role.
The talent pool of football managers is extremely shallow, sack Lambert tomorrow and he will have another job within a month because there are so few "qualified" candidates. This does not mean he is a good or even competent manager, there are just so few options.
To a large extent that is because of the amount of pressure placed upon anyone taking the job. There are very few jobs that you can compare it to in terms of the external influences and pressure from stakeholders.
Dunno, when you look a the renumeration they get there are very few people out there that would turn it down. They only recruit ex footballers. There is no other profesion that would hire the likes of Sam Allardyce Peter Reid to handle multi millions of assets on the basis that they could kick a football.
Prime example avb- £12m plus for getting sacked twice and no real playing history as such either .
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surely the latter point it's a complete contradiction of what CL was saying there Eastie. The 1 positive that Jose Mourinho brings to the sport is the proof that you don't have to have played at any meaningful standard to be a successful manager in 3 of the 4 toughest leagues in the world.
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surely the latter point it's a complete contradiction of what CL was saying there Eastie. The 1 positive that Jose Mourinho brings to the sport is the proof that you don't have to have played at any meaningful standard to be a successful manager in 3 of the 4 toughest leagues in the world.
Yes , Wenger is another good example and possibly Brendan Rogers - the money involved in managing and remuneration for being sacked makes it all worthwhile at that level I guess.
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Occasionally they have a plan of who they'll get it but it doesn't quite transpire. We openly courted Martinez before McLeish, and OGS before getting Lambert.
The difference is that in both those cases the season was over and there was time to look at it properly. The original point about getting rid of a manager with no idea about who would be brought in is really about when it happens during the season. Spurs don't seem to have anyone in mind, neither do Albion and in their case the decision could bring them into a relegation dogfight. Another example would be Wolves a couple of years ago. They would have probably still gone down had they kept McCarthy but they got rid of him and completely collapsed - to the point of back-to-back relegations. The lack of vision from the top at these clubs is really mind boggling.
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Occasionally they have a plan of who they'll get it but it doesn't quite transpire. We openly courted Martinez before McLeish, and OGS before getting Lambert.
The difference is that in both those cases the season was over and there was time to look at it properly. The original point about getting rid of a manager with no idea about who would be brought in is really about when it happens during the season. Spurs don't seem to have anyone in mind, neither do Albion and in their case the decision could bring them into a relegation dogfight. Another example would be Wolves a couple of years ago. They would have probably still gone down had they kept McCarthy but they got rid of him and completely collapsed - to the point of back-to-back relegations. The lack of vision from the top at these clubs is really mind boggling.
When Clarke got sacked the local media said that St Jeremy always has the new man in mind when he gets rid of the old. Doesn't look like it.
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From what i've read of his time at the Browns i don't think Lerner has a problem sacking managers and coaches. We are entering an interesting period where nearly all the non playing big wage earners will be gone, i'm hoping that this will mean that Lambert will be able to pay a decent wad to players he thinks have the quality the club need and Randy will back him, i have a feeling that Lambert delves a little further into the quality of the individual as much as his footballing ability.
If Lambert manages to get one or two quality players in we could see some of the newer players improve dramatically.
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I still think the baggies main target is malkie mckay but they're dodging paying compensation.
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"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. "
Thank god for that. I was fearing Lambert may have been wobbling after the silly booing at home recently. Glad to hear he is in for the long term.
We will come good and he & Randy are the right men to take the club forward.
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From what i've read of his time at the Browns i don't think Lerner has a problem sacking managers and coaches. We are entering an interesting period where nearly all the non playing big wage earners will be gone, i'm hoping that this will mean that Lambert will be able to pay a decent wad to players he thinks have the quality the club need and Randy will back him, i have a feeling that Lambert delves a little further into the quality of the individual as much as his footballing ability.
If Lambert manages to get one or two quality players in we could see some of the newer players improve dramatically.
During his time at the Browns he played significant wages for many players. The Browns, who weren't (aren't) very good still had numerous high draft picks that were paid very well. I don't think paying wages will be a problem for those you deserve it once we have cleared out the last of the dead wood so to speak. We'll pay those have earnt it and to those who are worth it. However the days of giving big money to those who will sit on the bench as seen during the MON years are over.
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"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. "
Thank god for that. I was fearing Lambert may have been wobbling after the silly booing at home recently. Glad to hear he is in for the long term.
We will come good and he & Randy are the right men to take the club forward.
Sensible comment that one.
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I still think the baggies main target is malkie mckay but they're dodging paying compensation.
Staying at Cardiff for now,hope they don't have a plan B.
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surely the latter point it's a complete contradiction of what CL was saying there Eastie. The 1 positive that Jose Mourinho brings to the sport is the proof that you don't have to have played at any meaningful standard to be a successful manager in 3 of the 4 toughest leagues in the world.
And playing at the highest level does not guarantee success as a manager. By my reckoning of the current premier league managers, only Laudrup could be regarded as being more successful than Lambert as a player. Mark Hughes has not won the European Cup/Champions league.
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surely the latter point it's a complete contradiction of what CL was saying there Eastie. The 1 positive that Jose Mourinho brings to the sport is the proof that you don't have to have played at any meaningful standard to be a successful manager in 3 of the 4 toughest leagues in the world.
And playing at the highest level does not guarantee success as a manager. By my reckoning of the current premier league managers, only Laudrup could be regarded as being more successful than Lambert as a player. Mark Hughes has not won the European Cup/Champions league.
He does have a better mullet than both Lambert and Laudrup though. Maybe we need a manager with a huge mullet.
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Occasionally they have a plan of who they'll get it but it doesn't quite transpire. We openly courted Martinez before McLeish, and OGS before getting Lambert.
The difference is that in both those cases the season was over and there was time to look at it properly. The original point about getting rid of a manager with no idea about who would be brought in is really about when it happens during the season. Spurs don't seem to have anyone in mind, neither do Albion and in their case the decision could bring them into a relegation dogfight. Another example would be Wolves a couple of years ago. They would have probably still gone down had they kept McCarthy but they got rid of him and completely collapsed - to the point of back-to-back relegations. The lack of vision from the top at these clubs is really mind boggling.
Yep. I also don't think we'd get any sort of decent replacement in mid season. Without breaking the bank on a decent manager. Any new man worth his salt, we might be able to attract will want a summer to assess the squad and change as and where needs be.
I think Lambert has to see out the season, for better or worse.
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"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. "
Thank god for that. I was fearing Lambert may have been wobbling after the silly booing at home recently. Glad to hear he is in for the long term.
We will come good and he & Randy are the right men to take the club forward.
Silly booing? Do you expect the players to be applauded off the pitch after yet another dreadful home performance?
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"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. "
Thank god for that. I was fearing Lambert may have been wobbling after the silly booing at home recently. Glad to hear he is in for the long term.
We will come good and he & Randy are the right men to take the club forward.
Silly booing? Do you expect the players to be applauded off the pitch after yet another dreadful home performance?
I think the home support has been poor this season. I find the booing silly and an over reaction. It smacks of Arsenal levels petulant fans. I want us to be better than that.
I far preferred the open defiance of last season when Lamberts name was sung even in our darkest hour.
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Occasionally they have a plan of who they'll get it but it doesn't quite transpire. We openly courted Martinez before McLeish, and OGS before getting Lambert.
The difference is that in both those cases the season was over and there was time to look at it properly. The original point about getting rid of a manager with no idea about who would be brought in is really about when it happens during the season. Spurs don't seem to have anyone in mind, neither do Albion and in their case the decision could bring them into a relegation dogfight. Another example would be Wolves a couple of years ago. They would have probably still gone down had they kept McCarthy but they got rid of him and completely collapsed - to the point of back-to-back relegations. The lack of vision from the top at these clubs is really mind boggling.
Yep. I also don't think we'd get any sort of decent replacement in mid season. Without breaking the bank on a decent manager. Any new man worth his salt, we might be able to attract will want a summer to assess the squad and change as and where needs be.
I think Lambert has to see out the season, for better or worse.
I wonder if the club were alerted to OGS being available now whether a poor run of results over christmas would tempt Randy to go back for him , or if he has blown his chance of the job in future ?
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Lambert is going nowhere. Lerner and he have agreed on the strategy and I dont think he will be under pressure unless we get relegated. I think they genuinely see this as taking 3-5 years to come to any real fruition.
I think they have to spend some mone in January though as the team and the fans need a lift.
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Lambert is going nowhere. Lerner and he have agreed on the strategy and I dont think he will be under pressure unless we get relegated. I think they genuinely see this as taking 3-5 years to come to any real fruition.
Quite right. To continue a pattern of changing the manager every one or two years meets the definition of insanity. Each manager would want to change the playing staff and you just end up in a downward spiral like we were in after O'Neill walked. For the first time in several years we're seeing positive progress - going from a team under serious threat of relegation to a mid-table team.
I think Lambert's probably the first manager in a long time who's understood the culture and history of the club.
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Lambert is going nowhere. Lerner and he have agreed on the strategy and I dont think he will be under pressure unless we get relegated. I think they genuinely see this as taking 3-5 years to come to any real fruition.
But if we get relegated it's too late then isn't it. I think this might be one of the most depressing statements I've heard recently, particularly if it's true.
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Lambert is going nowhere. Lerner and he have agreed on the strategy and I dont think he will be under pressure unless we get relegated. I think they genuinely see this as taking 3-5 years to come to any real fruition.
Quite right. To continue a pattern of changing the manager every one or two years meets the definition of insanity. Each manager would want to change the playing staff and you just end up in a downward spiral like we were in after O'Neill walked. For the first time in several years we're seeing positive progress - going from a team under serious threat of relegation to a mid-table team.
I think Lambert's probably the first manager in a long time who's understood the culture and history of the club.
McLeish understood it, he was just not good enough. O'Neill did as well, after a fashion, but he still thought he was more important.
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The trouble is, don't win one of the next 2, and then January looks very, very daunting. That is when the long term planning - and quite rightly that is what we are trying to do - will start to make a chairman sweat with the mad money on offer.
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Lambert is going nowhere. Lerner and he have agreed on the strategy and I dont think he will be under pressure unless we get relegated. I think they genuinely see this as taking 3-5 years to come to any real fruition.
Quite right. To continue a pattern of changing the manager every one or two years meets the definition of insanity. Each manager would want to change the playing staff and you just end up in a downward spiral like we were in after O'Neill walked. For the first time in several years we're seeing positive progress - going from a team under serious threat of relegation to a mid-table team.
I think Lambert's probably the first manager in a long time who's understood the culture and history of the club.
I wouldn't get too carried away with this mid table talk just yet - bottom half is very tight and we could easily slip into the bottom 6 in the coming days - huge games ahead !
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Could be worse I guess. Last night I dreamt David Platt returned in a coaching capacity.
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Could be worse I guess. Last night I dreamt David Platt returned in a coaching capacity.
Last night I dreamt of kylie platt and it was wonderful ;)
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Quite right. To continue a pattern of changing the manager every one or two years meets the definition of insanity. Each manager would want to change the playing staff and you just end up in a downward spiral like we were in after O'Neill walked
Did you feel the same way with McLeish or even McAllister if he'd been offered to job once Houllier 'quit' ?, or does this stick with the manager regardless of how bad things are stance only apply to Lambert ?
Because, not all of us can see any progress with what he's trying to do. Sadly i might add
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Of course you can't, beacuse every day it rains in your world.
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how has Solskjaer been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
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how has Solskjær been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
Relinquished the league title but won the Norwegian Cup I believe.
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how has Solskjær been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
Relinquished the league title but won the Norwegian Cup I believe.
maybe baggies will have him
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The situation is a paradox. Do you roll the dice and get someone in that can improve performance and results over what would probably be a short period of time that will probably want to go against club strategy and spend money on ecperience? Or stick with Lambert through pure hope that he knows what is going wrong (and can fix it) and put this down to the problems that come along with trying to build a long term project. I completely understand Lambert has one of the more difficult jobs in the PL but I am losing trust in his ability to deliver us a good winning team within the next 3 years.
As other posters on here have pointed out, it's all well and good sticking with the same manager for continuity (as well as the obvious financial costs that go along with it) but if you stick with a manager that doesn't look able to achieve objectives then it is completely counter-productive. He should be given the rest of the season to prove he can progress us a footballing side, and if he can't I think we have to have a look at who else is out there that can help us achieve our aims.
Sorry, I understand my post has almost nothing to do with the OP! Just interested in some of the debate that's come off the back of it ...
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how has Solskjær been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
Relinquished the league title but won the Norwegian Cup I believe.
maybe baggies will have him
Nah - they will get Hiddink, Van Gaal, Capello or Ancelotti.
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how has Solskjær been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
Relinquished the league title but won the Norwegian Cup I believe.
maybe baggies will have him
Nah - they will get Hiddink, TSM , Van Gaal, Capello or Ancelotti.
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I think the home support has been poor this season. I find the booing silly and an over reaction. It smacks of Arsenal levels petulant fans. I want us to be better than that.
Poor?
Given our recent struggles, our truly dreadful home record going back seasons, and the way we have played this season, I'd say the home support is the least of our problems.
Lambert has had a truly unprecedented amount of support from the fans. He's been very lucky. At most clubs, he'd be under truly huge pressure at the moment. Despite the fair amount of concern and disappointment on here, he's under next to no pressure currently.
I don't boo the team myself, but I entirely understand why other people want to (at least at the end of the game, rather than at half time).
The fact is, sometimes it is nothing like good enough, and when that goes on for a period of time, it is entirely understandable people get frustrated and want someone to hear it.
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how has Solskjær been doing in the last 18 mths anyway?
Relinquished the league title but won the Norwegian Cup I believe.
maybe baggies will have him
Nah - they will get Hiddink, TSM , Van Gaal, Capello or Ancelotti.
The TSM to pull the same stunt in a slightly different order as Ron Saunders?
As Mr Keegan once eloquently spoke '...I would LOVE it..'
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The situation is a paradox. Do you roll the dice and get someone in that can improve performance and results over what would probably be a short period of time that will probably want to go against club strategy and spend money on ecperience? Or stick with Lambert through pure hope that he knows what is going wrong (and can fix it) and put this down to the problems that come along with trying to build a long term project. I completely understand Lambert has one of the more difficult jobs in the PL but I am losing trust in his ability to deliver us a good winning team within the next 3 years.
As other posters on here have pointed out, it's all well and good sticking with the same manager for continuity (as well as the obvious financial costs that go along with it) but if you stick with a manager that doesn't look able to achieve objectives then it is completely counter-productive. He should be given the rest of the season to prove he can progress us a footballing side, and if he can't I think we have to have a look at who else is out there that can help us achieve our aims.
Sorry, I understand my post has almost nothing to do with the OP! Just interested in some of the debate that's come off the back of it ...
Good post.
In terms of changing manager I can only see two justifications - 1) a new manager could get more out of the current squad, or 2) a new manager would use a transfer kitty better.
For (1) I don't think a different manager could get significantly better results with the squad we have. The truth of the matter is they just aren't very good. You could argue (and I have) that Lambert has cut his nose off to spite his face with the bomb squad but I think this is part of a much bigger strategy to get the high earners out of the club and bring the wage base back to a sustainable level. I don't think changing the manager is going to get us immediately better results though.
So that then brings us to (2). Would you trust a different manager more with a transfer budget. Firstly, that assumes there is one, which isn't guaranteed. Secondly, what's Lambert been like in the transfer market so far? Yes, some of his signings are crap, but then they've cost us virtually nothing. The only ones he's spent any significant money on seem to be working out alright. I don't see any reason to think he'll have less success if he's given more money to play with.
I think we need to give him time to finish the job of sorting the wages out and then give him chance to spend some decent cash. Only then will we really be able to judge him.
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Much as it is showing signs of going backwards at the moment (our progress), I think sacking him and appointing someone else at this point would just mean ripping it all up and starting again (uh-oh, internal jukebox springs into action), which is a concept I find every bit as depressing as watching us play at the moment.
Any new manager would have to work with the same constraints, and I've a feeling the major problem is more likely to be the financial constraints than who the manager is at this point.
I don't want him sacked. I do, however, want him to sort it out, as soon as he possibly can at the moment, because watching us play is currently about as far from fun as it gets.
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I don't want him sacked. I do, however, want him to sort it out, as soon as he possibly can at the moment, because watching us play is currently about as far from fun as it gets.
Oh ye of short memory!
Watching us at the moment is a world apart from the TSM season. At least now there's the faint glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel!
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I don't want him sacked. I do, however, want him to sort it out, as soon as he possibly can at the moment, because watching us play is currently about as far from fun as it gets.
Oh ye of short memory!
Watching us at the moment is a world apart from the TSM season. At least now there's the faint glimmer of a light at the end of the tunnel!
I don't agree with that.
Whilst I think Lambert is totally different to McLeish, and comparisons of the two as mananger are unfair (Lambert at least tries to get us playing, but fails, McLeish never really tried to do anything other than his usual shtick with us), for the last several weeks, I've found us to be playing as poorly as we did under McLeish.
Don't get me wrong, I am not re-evaluating McLeish, I remember the 87 relegation team, and even given that, given the fact I've seen some truly awful Villa sides in the last 35 years, the McLeish season was the most depressing one I recall.
However, I'm not going to pretend we've been anything other than truly awful of late, because that'd be pretty hard to argue against
There's far more hope under Lambert, of course, but fuck me, we're truly terrible to watch of late and seem to be getting worse. I don't like watching a Villa side just drop back and defend and lump it long hoping to hit Benteke every now and then, whoever the manager is.
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No date with live longer in my memory than the evening of the 21st and morning of 22nd November 2011.
The longest drive back from London I have ever had, capped off by blue flashing lights as I hit junction 20 of the M6 at half 1 in the morning.
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Much as it is showing signs of going backwards at the moment (our progress), I think sacking him and appointing someone else at this point would just mean ripping it all up and starting again (uh-oh, internal jukebox springs into action), which is a concept I find every bit as depressing as watching us play at the moment.
Any new manager would have to work with the same constraints, and I've a feeling the major problem is more likely to be the financial constraints than who the manager is at this point.
I don't want him sacked. I do, however, want him to sort it out, as soon as he possibly can at the moment, because watching us play is currently about as far from fun as it gets.
I was about to post and luckily saw pauliewalnuts post just in time. This is pretty much what I was going to say - except for the Edwin Collins reference.
In delusion, I am hoping this is just a bad run of form, not a reflection of the best we are capable of. Sadly I also felt this way in 1987.
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Much as it is showing signs of going backwards at the moment (our progress), I think sacking him and appointing someone else at this point would just mean ripping it all up and starting again (uh-oh, internal jukebox springs into action), which is a concept I find every bit as depressing as watching us play at the moment.
Any new manager would have to work with the same constraints, and I've a feeling the major problem is more likely to be the financial constraints than who the manager is at this point.
I don't want him sacked. I do, however, want him to sort it out, as soon as he possibly can at the moment, because watching us play is currently about as far from fun as it gets.
That's it in a nutshell. I don't believe that RL is going to go through the same get-rid-and-start-again loop as has happened with GHou and TSM: he'll want to see whether Lambert can deliver on his long-term strategy of producing a winning squad from a bunch of untried youngsters.
My main concern is not what RL does: it is much more about whether Lambert can develop his approach with more flexibility, bringing in players that offer more experience and resilience, who can support the development of the young / untried players. At the moment, the sink-or-swim approach is very binary and does not offer the young / untried players the benefits of being in a mixed group.
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Nobody is happy with the way we have played of late. The difference, and its huge, between McLiesh and Lambert is that we know Lamberts sides can play good stuff and have done so at times this season.
We're a bang average side, currently playing badly and its frustrating as hell to lose to absolute garbage like Stoke. The summer and an influx of three or four higher quality players, especially in midfield, coupled by the return of Okore and Vlaar to the first team promises much better things.
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Back neaer to the topic - Lambert is obviously going to say positive things about Lerner as he is ultimately his boss.
Do I think Lambert has done a good job overall? Not especially a good job, nor a terrible job. Slightly below average.
He is very very lucky though to have followed an unpopular and then a deeply unpopular manager.I would hope the home form would have improved this season. Others site this as the major disappointment justifiably.
I don't think he would be sacked unless we get relegated and even then he might not. I believe overall his record is not as good as Clarke's who got binned by Barca Albion t'other week.
That said would I sack him? Nope!
Why?
Because
a) I am not sure we could get anyone who would get more out of the players available. Therefore we wouldn't get any better and could get a lot worse - think McDoom scenario 1987.
b) In doing so the club would be admitting implicitly they had got another managerial appointment wrong. And therefore there is absolutely nothing to suggest they would get the next right - in fact evidence would point to the contrary.
Stick and see how we do for the rest of the season.
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Nobody is happy with the way we have played of late. The difference, and its huge, between McLiesh and Lambert is that we know Lamberts sides can play good stuff and have done so at times this season
Nowhere near enough, in my opinion. That's the problem.
It's also hard to get much enthusiasm for what might happen in the summer, given it's only December - there's loads of this season left. He needs to get us playing much better, and pretty quickly.
Injuries have been a problem, although not as much as last season or as they were for Houllier I suspect, yes, but it's now a squad which has been almost entirely bought by him.
I'm not sure how much of a valid excuse injuries are when you look at the replacements - bought by him - and they're so underwhelmingly poor.
Last season, we went into January and quite clearly needed to get some decent players in. We got one, from the French second division, who did OKish for us, and we just about stayed up - yeah 15th, not as just about as Sunderland or Newcastle, but the fact remains, we weren't mathematically safe until four days before the end of the season.
This January, again, it looks pretty clear we need to spend again, only this time, he needs to spend it on players who are more experienced and who are more likely to perform quickly at this level. That cheap, hungry, young thing isn't going to improve us enough.
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I think we should keep in mind the Houllier season, where injuries ravaged us until January and we we generally struggled for any form. This season we've been unable to field any sort of consistent team and results have again been inconsistent. Take Saturday, both first choice centre backs and both main strikers missing, I think any side other than the very richest would find it difficult under those circumstances. All teams get injuries but we have been particularly unlucky this year which has meant forcing new signings to play more than would have been expected rather than allow them to bed in over time.
Trying to pass any sort of meaningful verdict on a manager under these 'make do and mend' circumstances is, in my view, pointless.
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Hmm, but the options for "mending" it are players he either bought, or decided he can work with. Left back, for example, we have a player he bought this summer, and a player he bought last year, and even if those two weren't injured, how unconvincing do they look?
The need to make do and mend isn't something that absolves Lambert from criticism.
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Things change Paulie and often very quickly. Look how we went from an awful night sarf of the river on 25th January, to some really good stuff shortly after.
It is within the players and it is within the manager too. The results have by and large been better, the performances are grinding though of late.
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Hmm, but the options for "mending" it are players he either bought, or decided he can work with. Left back, for example, we have a player he bought this summer, and a player he bought last year, and even if those two weren't injured, how unconvincing do they look?
The need to make do and mend isn't something that absolves Lambert from criticism.
As I said, Lambert needs to develop his approach with more flexibility, bringing in players that offer more experience and resilience, who can support the development of the young / untried players. At the moment, the sink-or-swim approach is very binary and does not offer the young / untried players the benefits of being in a mixed group.
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Things change Paulie and often very quickly. Look how we went from an awful night sarf of the river on 25th January, to some really good stuff shortly after.
It is within the players and it is within the manager too. The results have by and large been better, the performances are grinding though of late.
And by that measure, look how we went from an awful night at Chelsea last season to a run of truly awful results.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming we'll get worse, but I am also not assuming we're going to improve much very quickly. I want to see something on the pitch that makes me think we will, and there just doesn't seem to be enough.
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Chelsea away was a shattering exprience for the players and it had a long lasting effect on the confidence.
Being beaten by a truly awful Stoke side after the annual handing over of the points against Man United, won't in my view, have any long lasting issues for the players.
We have the perfect opportunity to put the right players out, playing the right system, to breathe confidence back into us on Boxing Day against the worse side in the league. An early goal and we will stroll it.
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I was chatting to a mate of mine who works for a private jet company. He said they often fly Lambert about. I assumed Scotland, but he said he's often going to and from Germany. Any ideas whether he is doing further coaching badges out there?
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Hmm, but the options for "mending" it are players he either bought, or decided he can work with. Left back, for example, we have a player he bought this summer, and a player he bought last year, and even if those two weren't injured, how unconvincing do they look?
The need to make do and mend isn't something that absolves Lambert from criticism.
And your criticism doesn't alter the facts that injuries have hit us particularly hard. If our left back has got Vlaar organising him then he looks better. If our midfield have Gabby's runs to pick out then they look better, If Benteke is fit and on form then the whole lot look better.
Now, it might be that those players come back and we don't improve and the manager will have questions to answer but at the moment I think he deserves a bit of patience.
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Whatever financial restraints he's working under -and whether they're club policy or self-imposed, they're there - there has to be a point at which they change, surely? PL was one of the most saught-after managers in the country when we got him. Why would he agree to come here to work in perpetual (relative) poverty, just to be at a bigger club? What's the point of that if you're not given the tools to succeed?
At some point there must have been some sort of agreement that he gets some better players if he sees us through the readjustment period. Either that or he's simply a masochist.
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It's also no coincidence that our current poor run of form, just like our poor run of form last year, has coincided with the loss of the experience of Vlaar. For all his own individual faults you can't deny the rest of the defence performs better when he's on the pitch keeping them in check.
Like others have said, give us a chance with a consistent team, especially at the back, and I think both performances and results will improve, just like they did last year.
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"It's not a challenge I will run away from. This job is years - not just one or two. "
Thank god for that. I was fearing Lambert may have been wobbling after the silly booing at home recently. Glad to hear he is in for the long term.
We will come good and he & Randy are the right men to take the club forward.
Silly booing? Do you expect the players to be applauded off the pitch after yet another dreadful home performance?
I think the home support has been poor this season. I find the booing silly and an over reaction. It smacks of Arsenal levels petulant fans. I want us to be better than that.
I far preferred the open defiance of last season when Lamberts name was sung even in our darkest hour.
Oh you must be joking! The fans have been fantastic this season considering the absolute shit the team has served up to them. There's nothing wrong with booing by the way, and if by full time the team have lost and have served up tripe yet again then they have every right to vent their spleen. You pay your money, and all that. We have a pro-active fan base, and we're not nodding dogs who sit there and accept every bit of crap thrown our way, and long may it continue.
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Hmm, but the options for "mending" it are players he either bought, or decided he can work with. Left back, for example, we have a player he bought this summer, and a player he bought last year, and even if those two weren't injured, how unconvincing do they look?
The need to make do and mend isn't something that absolves Lambert from criticism.
And your criticism doesn't alter the facts that injuries have hit us particularly hard. If our left back has got Vlaar organising him then he looks better. If our midfield have Gabby's runs to pick out then they look better, If Benteke is fit and on form then the whole lot look better.
Now, it might be that those players come back and we don't improve and the manager will have questions to answer but at the moment I think he deserves a bit of patience.
I am not pretending we haven't been hit by injuries, like any team, if we lose decent players to injury, we suffer.
I appreciate that with Vlaar there, the defence has looked better, and have thought and said that for a while, but in the middle, and up front, we look desperately poor, and whilst we look better with Gabby, I am far from sure that that improvement is sufficient to make us look considerably better than we do at the moment.
For example - Man United, Fulham, Sunderland, Albion, Everton, Spurs, Hull. All games Gabby featured in, and i don't remember our midfield looking better in those games.
I also have seen plenty of matches when we've had our entire midfield squad available to choose from, but still managed to look like we can't pass the ball 10 yards week after week.
The fact remains, the squad is so weak and patchy, that when we do have injuries, we fall to pieces.
I am not suggesting we sack him, far from it, but the stuff we've been offered this season has - first couple of games excepted - looked truly horrible. That needs to change.
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I never remember any manager saying such nice things about Doug. They would have probably been sacked for taking the piss.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
At the moment we are muddling through, unable to have any consistency of selection. Until we do any criticism, or praise, is pointless in my view. It's like calling you a scruff when all your decent clothes are in the wash; if when they are all dried and ironed you still look like a tramp then it will be valid, but until then we have to reserve judgement.
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Muddled is a good word. Everything about us at the moment seems to be fogged.
There isn't one specific problem that has caused the dip in form and it all seems a little chaotic.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
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The injuries haven't helped our cause thats for sure , but they have highlighted the fact that most of our so called squad players are not really good enough at this moment in time .
Nobody has come in and grasped the nettle .
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Muddled is a good word. Everything about us at the moment seems to be fogged.
There isn't one specific problem that has caused the dip in form and it all seems a little chaotic.
Well, the loss of Okore and Vlaar is one specific problem.
The fact that Lambert has been playing Bacuna at FB rather than in MF alongside Westie and Delph is a specific. The way he sees Herd as an auxiliary CB rather than as a holding MF is specific.
But I do understand the point you're making - it is muddled; made worse by the absence of some experienced players in key positions.
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Well, the loss of Okore and Vlaar is one specific problem.The fact that Lambert has been playing Bacuna at FB rather than in MF alongside Westie and Delph is a specific. The way he sees Herd as an auxiliary CB rather than as a holding MF is specific.
But I do understand the point you're making - it is muddled; made worse by the absence of some experienced players in key positions.
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Fair point on Vlaar, he's a big miss. But Okore? People are talking as if he's the missing link when we don't know if he's any good yet! He looks like he could be a quality centre half but we've hardly seen him play so I don't really subscribe to this view that everything will be fine when he's back. I just question why we've gone into the season with one experienced defender, as soon as he goes down you're going to struggle.
Don't mean to single out your quote Mr E, it's just that I've seen a lot of this on H&V and Twitter ...
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and that's what I get for trying to quote, I'm such a noob :-[
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Okore may not be the new McGrath but he'd be a better bet than baker or herd I'm pretty confident about that
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Okore may not be the new McGrath but he'd be a better bet than baker or herd I'm pretty confident about that
I also think he'd have been a nuisance in the opposition area too. Having to play Baker week in week out is a disaster waiting to happen.
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Okore may not be the new McGrath but he'd be a better bet than baker or herd I'm pretty confident about that
I'm not greedy , I will settle for him being the new Laursen or mellberg.
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Lambert "Randy is great, please don't sack me, I need more time".
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
Definitely. We're the dirtiest bunch of bastards in the league. We can't afford to keep losing players to suspension, particularly some of our few good players.
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One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
In other words, don't play Herd and Baker ;)
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One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
In other words, don't play Herd and Baker ;)
And teach Delph how to tackle.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
Definitely. We're the dirtiest bunch of bastards in the league. We can't afford to keep losing players to suspension, particularly some of our few good players.
I don't think we're dirty at all. One or two booking that are picked up are from petty refereeing.
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Well, the loss of Okore and Vlaar is one specific problem.The fact that Lambert has been playing Bacuna at FB rather than in MF alongside Westie and Delph is a specific. The way he sees Herd as an auxiliary CB rather than as a holding MF is specific.
But I do understand the point you're making - it is muddled; made worse by the absence of some experienced players in key positions.
Fair point on Vlaar, he's a big miss. But Okore? People are talking as if he's the missing link when we don't know if he's any good yet! He looks like he could be a quality centre half but we've hardly seen him play so I don't really subscribe to this view that everything will be fine when he's back. I just question why we've gone into the season with one experienced defender, as soon as he goes down you're going to struggle.
Don't mean to single out your quote Mr E, it's just that I've seen a lot of this on H&V and Twitter ...
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I agree with your Okore point
Vlaar is an older experienced international that took a year to start looking good , where Okore might eventually and probably be a top top player but he is young and no experience of the Prem league. Look at Petrov too , it can take a while to settle.
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the thing with Okore was in the little we saw of him we could all kind of figure out he would be better than Clark and Baker. In fairness to Clark he's improved a lot and has actually had a very good season next to Vlaar. Baker is a walking mistake waiting to happen and comfortably our 4th CB, and if Donacien comes through possibly our 5th.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
Definitely. We're the dirtiest bunch of bastards in the league. We can't afford to keep losing players to suspension, particularly some of our few good players.
I don't think we're dirty at all. One or two booking that are picked up are from petty refereeing.
I'm not sure we can blame petty refs. Westwood earlier in the season seemed on a mission to get himself sent off. Herd and Baker are a bit mental in the challenge. Delph is a leg breaker, Gabby's a dirty player, Weimann gets the red mist at times and some of our other youngens are perhaps less dirty, more clumsy.
I thought we were lucky to stay with 10 men in a few games this season, including the last run out. That said Stoke weren't much better. Horrendous. No surprise that us and Stoke are rock bottom of the fair play league.
I also think giving the ball away so much leaves us with little choice but to hack the opposition sometimes.
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Baker's actually a tremendous tackler - it's easily his biggest strength. The trouble is he's always so out of position he has to throw himself into challenges. So far he's got almost every one right but I do fear the day he's a bit late with one and ends up breaking someone's leg.
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Baker's actually a tremendous tackler - it's easily his biggest strength. The trouble is he's always so out of position he has to throw himself into challenges. So far he's got almost every one right but I do fear the day he's a bit late with one and ends up breaking someone's leg.
I think Baker is all a bit last ditch because his positioning is often so poor. He is a very good tackler in that sense and throws himself about which looks more dramatic than I wish it needed to be.
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I quite like that we can be dirty bastards, for too long we have been too 'nice' on the pitch. It just needs to be a bit more controlled dirty bastard.
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I think you have to take the team as a whole, not break it down it its component parts. A more solid defence allows the midfield to play with more freedom, a confident forward line gives them options when on the ball etc.
You could also argue that a better midfield that keeps the ball and closes down would put less pressure on an already dodgy defence.
As Chris points out, the injuries have hindered us and this weekend another player will be serving a suspension for the third match running. That said, it dose'nt excuse some of his strange team selections and subs.
One thing Lambert could improve straight away is the discipline.
Definitely. We're the dirtiest bunch of bastards in the league. We can't afford to keep losing players to suspension, particularly some of our few good players.
I don't think we're dirty at all. One or two booking that are picked up are from petty refereeing.
I'm not sure we can blame petty refs.
I think sometimes you can sometimes. I'm not sure how many players were booked overall at Stoke. I'd say around 7 because we had 5 booked and other than a rash Clark challenge, it wasn't really a dirty game. If you think about it, 5 bookings inside 17 games is not that shocking for a central midfielder. Gabby could do with cutting his down though.
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It's a discipline problem. Against Stoke the players got frustrated because they were behind, couldn't create anything and time's against us. That's when more of the fouling comes in. It's playing into the opposition's hands because they get the free kick and a bit more time is wasted. It does my head in.
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Frustration is partly responsible but I think they'd go in like that if we were winning. Lambert needs to have a word with them, as it's only a matter of time before we start picking up red cards.
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Well, the loss of Okore and Vlaar is one specific problem.The fact that Lambert has been playing Bacuna at FB rather than in MF alongside Westie and Delph is a specific. The way he sees Herd as an auxiliary CB rather than as a holding MF is specific.
But I do understand the point you're making - it is muddled; made worse by the absence of some experienced players in key positions.
Fair point on Vlaar, he's a big miss. But Okore? People are talking as if he's the missing link when we don't know if he's any good yet! He looks like he could be a quality centre half but we've hardly seen him play so I don't really subscribe to this view that everything will be fine when he's back. I just question why we've gone into the season with one experienced defender, as soon as he goes down you're going to struggle.
Don't mean to single out your quote Mr E, it's just that I've seen a lot of this on H&V and Twitter ...
I agree with your Okore point
Vlaar is an older experienced international that took a year to start looking good , where Okore might eventually and probably be a top top player but he is young and no experience of the Prem league. Look at Petrov too , it can take a while to settle.
Even if Okore is relatively untried, he looked a cut above the alternatives for the few games in which he has played.
Losing both him and Vlaar has been damaging to us, specifically.
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We are trying to make up for our lack of skill and guile by getting 'stuck in'.
The stats don't lie, we are a dirty team.
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I don't mind that. Like being top in at least one measure.
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I don't think we are dirty at all. On saturday Stoke were genuinely dirty, but they were canny enough to hide the worst of it. Our players lack the subtlety of experience. Look at how their left back handled Albrighton for example, he fouled him pretty much every time the ball went that side, and didn't get booked until around the 80th minute.
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If you have your two key centre halfs missing it forces the manager to go more defensive to give them cover. He can see that Baker is a weak link so he has to try and get him some cover, i notice how Albrighton is dropping back to prop up the defence and doing it well at the moment. When you have an inexperienced squad this is what happens when you get injuries to key players.
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Ok so if it's true and not just more Aston Villa Pravda bullshit that Lerner watches every game and phones Lambore after them then what does he make of how we play football? Surely he can see this is a failed experiment about to explode in our face?
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Ok so if it's true and not just more Aston Villa Pravda bullshit that Lerner watches every game and phones Lambore after them then what does he make of how we play football? Surely he can see this is a failed experiment about to explode in our face?
I remember jimmy hill saying that as a chairman once the fans turn on the chairman thats the time the manager has to go.
He was adamant that it wasn't the chairman who sacks managers but the fans .
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I think it's important to keep stressing the point, Lerner has given Lambert a fair amount for transfers, but won't allow him to pay the wages of experienced, competent, PL standard players. This forces Lambert's hand over who he can buy, so we end up with lower league hopefuls and poor foreign imports, but no leaders with genuine quality.
It's a false economy, because a balanced combination of the two types of player would see us climb the table, but it appears the wage structure is rigidly opposed to this. The result being that the young, inexperienced players have their confidence dashed so frequently and comprehensively that they become damaged goods at the club, and will soon want to be taken out the firing line. Trouble is there's nobody to replace them. We can get away with one season of this, but two or more on the bounce will have disastrous consequences.
Lerner needs to act quickly, call Lambert in and tell him he must buy at least three experienced, quality players in January, and that we'll be prepared to pay their wages. Go ahead and ensure our survival. Things will improve markedly once we get some leaders out on that pitch, because at the moment we have none. But leadership begins at the top, so Lerner must act accordingly.
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Randy's remit was for lambert to reach the playoffs.
Sadly this isn't American football and we'll scrape into the playoffs in the championship only to receive a crushing defeat to Ipswich in the semis.