Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Rip Van We Go Again on March 14, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
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I read in today's Birmingham Post that Doug has given a total of £1,366,000 over the years to the NSPCC.
For all his peculiarities, you can't knock that.
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He's a decent old chap deep down! I admire the fact he still gets to games and bear him no ill will- he will always split fans opinions but for all his faults hes a good old stick and has mellowed with age.
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[Takes out onion] Fair brings a tear to my rheumy old eye, it do
Opens a bag of popcorn ...
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he does like to talk about his charitable stuff, he loves the publicity, but as long as he keeps forking out the cash who really cares?
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I read in today's Birmingham Post that Doug...
That's "Sir Herbert" to you, I believe.
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Is that a million he's donated from his own pocket or 'raised'?
Serious unloaded question as I've not read the article.
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Is that a million he's donated from his own pocket or 'raised'?
Serious unloaded question as I've not read the article.
His own.
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Fair play to the old boy then.
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Nice one Doug.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
Slight correction, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of us down the years.
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
I bet it's a big deal to the charities.
Good luck to him.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A harsh comment that. The point is he didnt have to do it.....but he did!
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
Precisely, that's the same with all sportsmen and women who give to charity. They tend to get slated with 'well it's not enough', but they don't have to give anything.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A harsh comment that. The point is he didnt have to do it.....but he did!
Exactly ! It's people who contribute to charities that help others whatever the charity may be and i applaud him for his actions - he as clampy and Ron rightly say didnt have to do it - well done doug!
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
No, he didn't have to do it but then how else would he get his name in the press these days?
It's great that charities benefit but it's the fact that he's such a shameless self publicist that grates with me.
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
No, he didn't have to do it but then how else would he get his name in the press these days?
It's great that charities benefit but it's the fact that he's such a shameless self publicist that grates with me.
Harsh and nasty comment that in my view .
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That's great however he can not be forgiven for the the money he paid to O'Leary.
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
No, he didn't have to do it but then how else would he get his name in the press these days?
It's great that charities benefit but it's the fact that he's such a shameless self publicist that grates with me.
Harsh and nasty comment that in my view .
Not nasty, just my honest view.
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It's a gesture he did'nt have to make, however much he's made over the years.
No, he didn't have to do it but then how else would he get his name in the press these days?
It's great that charities benefit but it's the fact that he's such a shameless self publicist that grates with me.
Harsh and nasty comment that in my view .
Not nasty, just my honest view.
I'm sure if doug wanted his name in the press he could do it far easier than giving over £1m to charity , but you are entitled to your opinion chris.
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Got him a "Sir"
Saint Beckham will be next even though he doesn't know what charity his wages go to as he "has people who sort that out for him"
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I don't think Chris's comment was nasty. Unfair maybe. You can be an ego manic without throwing money at charities to prove it.
Out of interest, was it one particular charity or several?
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Got him a "Sir"
Yep, £1.5m is pretty cheap to buy yourself that kind of title.
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It's mixture of ego/ guilt trip for people like Ellis.
He could have given tens of millions to his chosen good causes but that might have mean't compromising his lavish lifestyle and that would never be on the agenda.
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I'm not sure the NSPCC is such a brilliant charity, if I'm honest. I used to have a standing order set up to donate money to them, but after a while I realised that they are just an 'awareness-raising' organisation. They don't intervene and prosecute in cruelty cases in the way that the RSPCA does for cases of animal cruelty. They don't fund care for victims. They just have the occasional PR campaign which amounts to a load of adverts saying 'hitting children is wrong'. And they sign up a load of celebs to back it, which is piss easy for them because everyone agrees that hitting children is wrong.
Maybe somebody can correct me if I am wrong here, but I felt that my £20 a month was just a way to make me feel good about myself.
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Btw there is a whole building at Clare College, Cambridge named after Randy Lerner. You'd have to be pretty determined and inquisitive to find out how much he gave them.
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Btw there is a whole building at Clare College, Cambridge named after Randy Lerner. You'd have to be pretty determined and inquisitive to find out how much he gave thm.
He also donated £5m to the National Portarit gallery to set up the "Lerner Wing"
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It's Doug all over. No, he didn't have to give it and no, he didn't have to make it public but that's what his generation do, or rather did - "Put something back" and in return get your photo in the papers handing over an oversized cheque, usually while wearing a dinner jacket and oversized bow tie (preferably velvet). Donate a bit more and get the building of your choice named after you.
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It's Larry David and Ted Danson in Curb your enthusiasm all over again.
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Is there any such thing as a selfless good deed?
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Is there any such thing as a selfless good deed?
Indeed there is. Some people do things anonymously or without any recognition.
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Is there any such thing as a selfless good deed?
A-Level Philosophy all over again! I don't believe so myself. Yet in my assumption that those who give to charity do so out of guilt or to ease their conscience, I believe that this is ultimately admirable as there are many who do not have any empathy for those less fortunate.
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If you're going to give, always give anonymously, or with a promise of anonymity. Otherwise, you're merely buying good karma.
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I'd rather have Doug give away £1.5 million of his money to the NSPCC than endure tomorrow's parade of celebrities begging for us to part with ours for Comic Relief.
I do, however, agree with Damon that there are better "hands on" children's charities than NSPCC. I'd have personally given it to, for example, Childline.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
But I bet its a relatively bigger drop of his net worth than anything the likes of Abramovich, Sullivan, Gold, Bates etc have ever dropped in a charity pot.
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I'm not sure the NSPCC is such a brilliant charity, if I'm honest. I used to have a standing order set up to donate money to them, but after a while I realised that they are just an 'awareness-raising' organisation. They don't intervene and prosecute in cruelty cases in the way that the RSPCA does for cases of animal cruelty. They don't fund care for victims. They just have the occasional PR campaign which amounts to a load of adverts saying 'hitting children is wrong'. And they sign up a load of celebs to back it, which is piss easy for them because everyone agrees that hitting children is wrong.
Maybe somebody can correct me if I am wrong here, but I felt that my £20 a month was just a way to make me feel good about myself.
Agreed my dad worked for a children's hospice for 7 years and the NSPCC were not particularly popular for the reasons you mention.
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It's always easy to write off such donations when it is someone else's money.
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As an aside, tomorrow I will be expected to part with pleny of cash for Comic Relief, just because we have some people taking phone pledges.
Its the same every year. When I won't get involved it is because I am not charitably minded. Which misses the point that I lay out for cancer, air ambulance, animal and lifeboat charities from my salary every month.
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Is there any such thing as a selfless good deed?
Indeed there is. Some people do things anonymously or without any recognition.
That's not the point of the question. Whether they are recognised for it or not, if by doing a good deed, if that makes the person feel good then can it be truly selfless? Can there be a good deed, which by doing it makes yourself feel bad and therefore making it genuinely selfless?
I seem to remember it was the plot on one of the more tedious episodes of 'Friends'.
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As an aside, tomorrow I will be expected to part with pleny of cash for Comic Relief, just because we have some people taking phone pledges.
Its the same every year. When I won't get involved it is because I am not charitably minded. Which misses the point that I lay out for cancer, air ambulance, animal and lifeboat charities from my salary every month.
Is it safe to say that you do a lot of good work for charidee but don't like to talk about it, Chelts?
*wink*
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I don't normally, as it goes! And lest we forget my Doug and charity tale from GM's a short while back.
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Anything that's given to charity is more that they had before the donation. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether its a quid or a million, its all good.
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Is there any such thing as a selfless good deed?
Indeed there is. Some people do things anonymously or without any recognition.
That's not the point of the question. Whether they are recognised for it or not, if by doing a good deed, if that makes the person feel good then can it be truly selfless? Can there be a good deed, which by doing it makes yourself feel bad and therefore making it genuinely selfless?
I seem to remember it was the plot on one of the more tedious episodes of 'Friends'.
Indeed Dave. I don't believe an example has ever been given where the counter-arguement can't be made.
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I'd rather have Doug give away £1.5 million of his money to the NSPCC than endure tomorrow's parade of celebrities begging for us to part with ours for Comic Relief.
I do, however, agree with Damon that there are better "hands on" children's charities than NSPCC. I'd have personally given it to, for example, Childline.
Totally agree. I've already made a donation for Comic Relief via work, but I'd prefer not to see the slebs. I've mixed feelings about Cause Related Marketing/Social Corporate Responsibility. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/corporatesocialresponsibility) Ultimately, I assume charities can't be too choosy about how they raise finances nowadays, and if the donor gets some publicitiy, so be it.
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He's a decent old chap deep down! I admire the fact he still gets to games and bear him no ill will- he will always split fans opinions but for all his faults hes a good old stick and has mellowed with age.
Why wouldnt he go to the games he gets in for fcuk all ...
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
You can't know that though, not everyone is as publicity hungry as Doug.
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He's a decent old chap deep down! I admire the fact he still gets to games and bear him no ill will- he will always split fans opinions but for all his faults hes a good old stick and has mellowed with age.
Why wouldnt he go to the games he gets in for fcuk all ...
I hope i'm still travelling to away games when i'm 89.
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As an aside, tomorrow I will be expected to part with pleny of cash for Comic Relief, just because we have some people taking phone pledges.
Its the same every year. When I won't get involved it is because I am not charitably minded. Which misses the point that I lay out for cancer, air ambulance, animal and lifeboat charities from my salary every month.
Which is the way for most people I'd imagine.
I'm not a religious person but the story of the widow's mite comes to mind. It's easy to appear generous when you're loaded, it's even easier if you haven't had to do a fat lot to get the money and it gets you some fawning publicity into the bargain. However, most charitable support, financial and practical, goes on without people getting their names in the paper.
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As a slight aside I do find it annoying when I enter a supermarket for someone to ask me "would you like to help a disabled child sir?"
My stock answer is "Yes I do" and move swiftly on, with my disabled son (who gives to charity himself)...
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
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I try to see the good in people but I'm afraid that where Mr self promotion is concerned I always find it difficult not to be cynical about his motives. And it's not too difficult to make a case - egotists love a title, charitable deeds often seem to seal the knight hood deal for those already in the public eye, donations potentially tax deductible. Of course I could be wrong and he might actually just be a thoroughly decent chap. In which case, fair play to him.
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
You can't know that though, not everyone is as publicity hungry as Doug.
But does it matter. So Uncle Doug boasts about giving cash to charity, at least the charity is getting the cash. And maybe by giving said charity some publicity they might just get a few more donations?
I don't get the hatred some of you have for Ellis, there are far more worthy targets for my ire than a bloke who just didn't spend as much as I'd have liked on the football club I support.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
The truth isn't libellous. Would you care to know the facts?
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
You can't know that though, not everyone is as publicity hungry as Doug.
But does it matter. So Uncle Doug boasts about giving cash to charity, at least the charity is getting the cash. And maybe by giving said charity some publicity they might just get a few more donations?
I don't get the hatred some of you have for Ellis, there are far more worthy targets for my ire than a bloke who just didn't spend as much as I'd have liked on the football club I support.
On a thread about Doug Ellis it's probably likely that we're going to give our opinions on Doug Ellis, rather than say the bloke who allegedly burnt his house down with all his kids inside. You aren't obliged to read it.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
The truth isn't libellous. Would you care to know the facts?
Don't worry... I get it... Doug bad... Randy good.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
The truth isn't libellous. Would you care to know the facts?
Don't worry... I get it... Doug bad... Randy good.
I'd be more than willing to repeat, for example, the tale of the benefit match which has been told on here before.
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Bit lacking on the personal humility front. If you give your time to others less fortunate and give money to charity then great but telling the world about it? Generalising here but never comfortable when publicity is sought.
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Bit lacking on the personal humility front. If you give your time to others less fortunate and give money to charity then great but telling the world about it? Generalising here but never comfortable when publicity is sought.
That's the whole thing about Doug. Yes, the donations are good and I don't suppose the charities could care less whether or not the world know what he's done, but it all seems, in the words of Sir Graham, "by Doug Ellis, for the benefit of Doug Ellis."
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
Not if you know what went on back then.
Tony Barton, never forgotten.
Doug Ellis, never forgiven.
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To expand this thread, I wonder how history will judge HDE in years to come? He was our pantomime villains for years, but looking at how things are today, perhaps we were all too hard on him.
I don't see us in the third division today, neither do I see anyone taking £40 million out of the club while hounding the manager of our greatest triumph to the grave and beyond.
Hounding him to the grave and beyond? Slightly hysterical and maybe libellous.
The truth isn't libellous. Would you care to know the facts?
Don't worry... I get it... Doug bad... Randy good.
I'd be more than willing to repeat, for example, the tale of the benefit match which has been told on here before.
Okay.. can I grab a quick drink before you do?
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It says it all that Barry Fry and small heath showed more respect to the manager of our greatest moment than the Chairman of Aston Villa did. Any time I think i'm mellowing towards Ellis I think back to Barton and all the hate comes back.
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Bit lacking on the personal humility front. If you give your time to others less fortunate and give money to charity then great but telling the world about it? Generalising here but never comfortable when publicity is sought.
That's the whole thing about Doug. Yes, the donations are good and I don't suppose the charities could care less whether or not the world know what he's done, but it all seems, in the words of Sir Graham, "by Doug Ellis, for the benefit of Doug Ellis."
y
Exactly, that is Mr Ellis
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Well Doug is Doug... but at least he still attends games... home and away. It's a pity our current Saviour doesn't afford us the same affection
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Well Doug is Doug... but at least he still attends games... home and away. It's a pity our current Saviour doesn't afford us the same affection
Forget he treated Tony Barton and his family like shit and treated them with less respect than small heath did, that he still goes to matches as he has fuck all else in his life is all that matters.
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Well Doug is Doug... but at least he still attends games... home and away. It's a pity our current Saviour doesn't afford us the same affection
I think I'm right in saying that Joe Lewis barely turns up at Spurs whereas Ken Bates tends not to miss a match (when he's allowed to own football clubs).
I think I know which one is the better owner.
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Well Doug is Doug... but at least he still attends games... home and away. It's a pity our current Saviour doesn't afford us the same affection
Doesn't live in Sutton though does he?
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See below
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Well Doug is Doug... but at least he still attends games... home and away. It's a pity our current Saviour doesn't afford us the same affection
Doesn't live in Sutton though does he?
Er.. that's exactly my point.
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Well, for a start the game was due to be played against the Stripeys, not a massive attraction but we hadn't played them for years and they'd have brought a few supporters. Except for some reason it was moved to the following night, when they couldn't make it. And for some other reason the game 'had' to be a couple of weeks before Christmas, with all that implies for a lower gate.
In the run-up to the match the company I worked for agreed to handle the PR. Their media officer said he had never come across anyone so unhelpful in arranging photo shoots and such things. Mrs Barton and her son arrived at Villa Park to see Brian Little, as arranged, just as Doug was driving away. The receptionist then had a phone call of the "Yes Mr Chairman, of course Mr Chairman" variety and informed the Bartons that Brian was in meetings all afternoon so couldn't be disturbed (This being at the time when Leicester were suing him). To his credit John Gregory then turned up, spoke to Mrs B and ran up to Brian's office. Brian then spoke to them, having no meetings scheduled for that afternoon.
On the night before the match there was a dinner at the ICC. And very nice it was too, with representatives from many clubs and a full turnout of Villa players, on a three line whip from the manager, God bless him. There were no club staff there though, although that wasn't surprising as a memo had been sent telling them they were not to attend. Also in non-attendance was the Lord Mayor, who had cancelled that afternoon for some reason. There was an auction which went well, with items donated from many clubs, including Bayern Munich who sent an autographed football together with apologies that they couldn't attend. The auction might have raised even more money had the Villa donated anything.
Onto the night of the match. The club had agreed that a plaque commemorating Tony's achievements could be hung in reception. Duly engraved, the family arrived with it and were told that it couldn't be put there anymore. The European Cup team played a curtain-raiser to the main event. They had to change in what is now the Academy and walk over the North Stand car park to get onto the pitch. We were prevented from holding a collection amongst boxholders who had got in free. Mrs Barton and the chairman of the organising committee weren't allowed into the boardroom, where Doug was entertaining his guests. The items which had arrived too late for the previous night's auction were auctioned after the game. Villa's contribution obviously got lost in the post. The bill for guests' food, including the boardroom no-one was allowed into, was deducted from the match receipts. The manager of the European Cup team asked if he could get a taxi. He was told there was a pay phone in the North Stand and did he know where that was? He refrained from saying that the stand in question was the main reason he wasn't still the club 's manager. The plaque was eventually placed in the directors' wives room. Legend has it that it was rescued from a skip when the stand was demolished.
No, I can't understand why Doug gets so much stick either.
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That needed saying Dave before history gets re-written
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
Wearing his green overcoat.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
Not many more turned up to Dennis Mortimer's testimonial either. Let's face it, Villa fans don't like testimonials.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
Not many more turned up to Dennis Mortimer's testimonial either. Let's face it, Villa fans don't like testimonials.
I seem to remember a reasonable turnout for Brian Little's. I touched the matchball at that one. I could be wrong though as I was only about 11 so all crowds seemed big in those days.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Can't argue with that. The McLeish appointment was even worse though.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Can't argue with that. The McLeish appointment was even worse though.
It's debatable in my view. McLeish was a damn stupid move though.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Can't argue with that. The McLeish appointment was even worse though.
It's debatable in my view. McLeish was a damn stupid move though.
HDE appointed Graham Taylor to compensate. Where's our GT now?
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
Are you related to Doug? You don't seem bothered that he treated Barton like shit or that he relegated us 5 years after winning the Europe Cup but seem to prefer him to Randy who hasn't actually relegated us.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
Not many more turned up to Dennis Mortimer's testimonial either. Let's face it, Villa fans don't like testimonials.
I seem to remember a reasonable turnout for Brian Little's. I touched the matchball at that one. I could be wrong though as I was only about 11 so all crowds seemed big in those days.
I think about 8k turned up for Mortimer's. I remember running onto the pitch at the end.
The point about Villa fans not liking testimonials is right though. I mainly think its a good thing because I don't see why working class people should line the pockets of the considerably richer when it really should be the footballer giving something back to the fan. Shame about Barton's being so poorly attended though.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
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It was also a disgrace how little the Villa promoted the game. One of the reasons only about 3K turned up. Although as Dave says the timing of it didn't help either. It was freezing IIRC. I've still got my programme somewhere signed by Ron Saunders while he was in the dugout.
Not many more turned up to Dennis Mortimer's testimonial either. Let's face it, Villa fans don't like testimonials.
I seem to remember a reasonable turnout for Brian Little's. I touched the matchball at that one. I could be wrong though as I was only about 11 so all crowds seemed big in those days.
I think about 8k turned up for Mortimer's. I remember running onto the pitch at the end.
The point about Villa fans not liking testimonials is right though. I mainly think its a good thing because I don't see why working class people should line the pockets of the considerably richer when it really should be the footballer giving something back to the fan. Shame about Barton's being so poorly attended though.
Testimonials were needed more in those days though. From what I remember the Barton family weren't exactly loaded.
They are pretty pointless these days though. Players don't exactly need the money any more.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
Okay... what about kept us in the Premier League... won x2 league cups... Maintained the stadium as one of the best in the country... kept us debt free... played some great football?
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
You can't know that though, not everyone is as publicity hungry as Doug.
But does it matter. So Uncle Doug boasts about giving cash to charity, at least the charity is getting the cash. And maybe by giving said charity some publicity they might just get a few more donations?
I don't get the hatred some of you have for Ellis, there are far more worthy targets for my ire than a bloke who just didn't spend as much as I'd have liked on the football club I support.
On a thread about Doug Ellis it's probably likely that we're going to give our opinions on Doug Ellis, rather than say the bloke who allegedly burnt his house down with all his kids inside. You aren't obliged to read it.
Eh?
I can't see where I have said you can't have an opinion. Have you actually read my post or are you just on the blob or something?
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
It's not like we sank without trace though. We went down, yes, but we were back in one season and we've been here ever since. Yes he was to blame for taking us down but he's also responsible for keeping us in the top flight for our longest period in decades.
You obviously don't need me to tell you this though.
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By my reckoning we've been relegated 5 times in our history. Two of them where when Doug was around.
And thank McGrath he maintained the ground so well, it's not like anyone missed the AV floodlights or Trinity Road stand. And thankfully he did Witton Lane so well he named it after himself. It's not like they had problems after it was built.
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
It's not like we sank without trace though. We went down, yes, but we were back in one season and we've been here ever since. Yes he was to blame for taking us down but he's also responsible for keeping us in the top flight for our longest period in decades.
You obviously don't need me to tell you this though.
And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
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And he tried to flog Gary Shaw to Barcelona behind the managers back. Allegedly.
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By my reckoning we've been relegated 5 times in our history. Two of them where when Doug was around.
And thank McGrath he maintained the ground so well, it's not like anyone missed the AV floodlights or Trinity Road stand. And thankfully he did Witton Lane so well he named it after himself. It's not like they had problems after it was built.
The new Holte End is nice though, and the new Witton Lane stand is better than the old.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
It's not like we sank without trace though. We went down, yes, but we were back in one season and we've been here ever since. Yes he was to blame for taking us down but he's also responsible for keeping us in the top flight for our longest period in decades.
You obviously don't need me to tell you this though.
He took us closer to going down again than Randy has, and according to you he's the devil incarnate.
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
Well thank God Randy came along... that's all I can say.
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
Is 3 years perennial? Football was as bad under Ellis. We didn't have a pot to piss in under Ellis at times. 8K at home to Southampton in the league, who was in charge? We signed one loan player, do you need to be reminded of some our fantastic signings under Doug?
Other than that, great post.
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
As opposed to perennial relegation strugglers...atrocious football...whatever that vulgarism might mean...less than 10,000 regularly...you're right about no bargain loan players in the transfer window though. Back then we couldn't afford Eirik Bakke.
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
I've heard the Saunders/Ellis stuff for years, but yet when Ron came out of exile a few years ago I heard him being interviewed on Radio 5 and he categorically said that his departure from Villa had absolutely nothing to do with Doug Ellis. What's the story you know then?
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
I've heard the Saunders/Ellis stuff for years, but yet when Ron came out of exile a few years ago I heard him being interviewed on Radio 5 and he categorically said that his departure from Villa had absolutely nothing to do with Doug Ellis. What's the story you know then?
Of course his going was nothing to do with Ellis. Had Ellis won the EGM in 1979 he would have been off the day after.
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
Is 3 years perennial? Football was as bad under Ellis. We didn't have a pot to piss in under Ellis at times. 8K at home to Southampton in the league, who was in charge? We signed one loan player, do you need to be reminded of some our fantastic signings under Doug?
Other than that, great post.
But with Doug gone weren't the dark days supposed to be behind us?
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
As opposed to perennial relegation strugglers...atrocious football...whatever that vulgarism might mean...less than 10,000 regularly...you're right about no bargain loan players in the transfer window though. Back then we couldn't afford Eirik Bakke.
You are joking... aren't you? And I thought you were a journalist... you don't know what atrocious means?
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
I've heard the Saunders/Ellis stuff for years, but yet when Ron came out of exile a few years ago I heard him being interviewed on Radio 5 and he categorically said that his departure from Villa had absolutely nothing to do with Doug Ellis. What's the story you know then?
Of course his going was nothing to do with Ellis. Had Ellis won the EGM in 1979 he would have been off the day after.
Ahh, so Ron was being economical with the truth then!
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
As opposed to perennial relegation strugglers...atrocious football...whatever that vulgarism might mean...less than 10,000 regularly...you're right about no bargain loan players in the transfer window though. Back then we couldn't afford Eirik Bakke.
You are joking... aren't you? And I thought you were a journalist... you don't know what atrocious means?
You obviously don't, but then again there appear to be a few words you don't know the meaning of. Do you intend to comment on my lengthy post earlier, or has that been conveniently forgotten?
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I thought it was pretty common knowledge that if Doug had won then Ron would have been off.
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Took us to division three, took us to division two, failed to capitalise on every advantage the club had, took millions out for himself, played some fucking awful football, rebuilt the stadium so cheaply the council told him to go away and do a better job. But he won the League Cup so that's alright. Remind me what he wanted to do with the manager who won us the league.
I've heard the Saunders/Ellis stuff for years, but yet when Ron came out of exile a few years ago I heard him being interviewed on Radio 5 and he categorically said that his departure from Villa had absolutely nothing to do with Doug Ellis. What's the story you know then?
Of course his going was nothing to do with Ellis. Had Ellis won the EGM in 1979 he would have been off the day after.
Ahh, so Ron was being economical with the truth then!
No, he was off in 1979 had Doug won.
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And look at us now... perennial relegation strugglers... atrocious football... no pot to piss in... dwindling gates... Bargain basement loan players in the transfer window.
As opposed to perennial relegation strugglers...atrocious football...whatever that vulgarism might mean...less than 10,000 regularly...you're right about no bargain loan players in the transfer window though. Back then we couldn't afford Eirik Bakke.
You are joking... aren't you? And I thought you were a journalist... you don't know what atrocious means?
You obviously don't, but then again there appear to be a few words you don't know the meaning of. Do you intend to comment on my lengthy post earlier, or has that been conveniently forgotten?
[/
Ok. Silly time has arrived. Off to bed. Expect to be banned by Lord Dave by morning.
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Oh good, another "I'm disagreeing with you so I'm going to be banned" post. Your wish is my command.
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What's all this got to do with a hefty donation to charity though?
Because atticus snood asked how history would view him and were we too hard on him? Were we fuck, the old fecker got off light.
Well lets just be grateful for where we are now.
Indeed. Thank fuck Ellis didn't think the manager of Shrewsbury was good enough for a club that had just won the European Cup and that we weren't relegated within 5 years of winning it.
Ah... but we came straight back up. Will we do that next time?
When it comes to making excuses, "He might have taken us from European champions to division two but at least we came straight back up" has to be amongst the best.
It's not like we sank without trace though. We went down, yes, but we were back in one season and we've been here ever since. Yes he was to blame for taking us down but he's also responsible for keeping us in the top flight for our longest period in decades.
You obviously don't need me to tell you this though.
He took us closer to going down again than Randy has, and according to you he's the devil incarnate.
Probably because I could see how bad this team was right from the off! Do you really think a life long Villa fan like me enjoys criticising the club as much as I've done this last 18 months?
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Ok. Silly time has arrived. Off to bed. Expect to be banned by Lord Dave by morning.
Actually you have been banned by me for breaching site rules:
Posters including such phrases as "I know you will delete this" or "I bet I get banned for saying this" as some sort of challenge to the moderators will find the post deleted and/or themselves banned as a matter of principle.
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I don't know, but I do know that it's strange how you can defend Doug Ellis considering how low he regularly took us
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I don't know, but I do know that it's strange how you can defend Doug Ellis considering how low he regularly took us
I criticised him when he deserved it. The same applies to Lerner. The last 3 seasons have been utterly shit, and he deserves stick for it.
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I don't know, but I do know that it's strange how you can defend Doug Ellis considering how low he regularly took us
I criticised him when he deserved it. The same applies to Lerner. The last 3 seasons have been utterly shit, and he deserves stick for it.
But now you defend him.
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Probably because I could see how bad this team was right from the off! Do you really think a life long Villa fan like me enjoys criticising the club as much as I've done this last 18 months?
Isn't the view you posted re Ellis influenced by a desire to hit back at Lerner? I sometimes feel like that myself, in my moments of greatest anger with him.
Let's be entirely honest, though, Lerner has been here six years, and has spent loads of money getting a team which broke the top six into three relegation scraps.
Doug spent none of his own money getting the European Champions into the second division within five years. This is an achievement which goes down in the annals of English football.
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I don't know, but I do know that it's strange how you can defend Doug Ellis considering how low he regularly took us
I criticised him when he deserved it. The same applies to Lerner. The last 3 seasons have been utterly shit, and he deserves stick for it.
But now you defend him.
What's wrong with a bit of balance now and again. You do it yourself when someone hammers Ellis for the demise of the old Trinity Rd stand
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Big fucking deal, it's a drop in the ocean to him after all the money he's made out of the Villa down the years.
A fucking damn sight more than most of the multi-millionaire players we have had over the years have bothered to donate.
You can't know that though, not everyone is as publicity hungry as Doug.
But does it matter. So Uncle Doug boasts about giving cash to charity, at least the charity is getting the cash. And maybe by giving said charity some publicity they might just get a few more donations?
I don't get the hatred some of you have for Ellis, there are far more worthy targets for my ire than a bloke who just didn't spend as much as I'd have liked on the football club I support.
On a thread about Doug Ellis it's probably likely that we're going to give our opinions on Doug Ellis, rather than say the bloke who allegedly burnt his house down with all his kids inside. You aren't obliged to read it.
Eh?
I can't see where I have said you can't have an opinion. Have you actually read my post or are you just on the blob or something?
I've read your post and it seems to be arguing with people's reasons for posting rather than the substance of what is being said.
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Probably because I could see how bad this team was right from the off! Do you really think a life long Villa fan like me enjoys criticising the club as much as I've done this last 18 months?
Isn't the view you posted re Ellis influenced by a desire to hit back at Lerner? I sometimes feel like that myself, in my moments of greatest anger with him.
Let's be entirely honest, though, Lerner has been here six years, and has spent loads of money getting a team which broke the top six into three relegation scraps.
Doug spent none of his own money getting the European Champions into the second division within five years. This is an achievement which goes down in the annals of English football.
I'm angry with Lerner that's for sure. Remember how excited we all were when he took over, and now look at us. Ellis has gone, he's history. You can't just cherry pick the Ellis era for the bad bits because it wasn't all that bad.
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Probably because I could see how bad this team was right from the off! Do you really think a life long Villa fan like me enjoys criticising the club as much as I've done this last 18 months?
Isn't the view you posted re Ellis influenced by a desire to hit back at Lerner? I sometimes feel like that myself, in my moments of greatest anger with him.
Let's be entirely honest, though, Lerner has been here six years, and has spent loads of money getting a team which broke the top six into three relegation scraps.
Doug spent none of his own money getting the European Champions into the second division within five years. This is an achievement which goes down in the annals of English football.
I'm angry with Lerner that's for sure. Remember how excited we all were when he took over, and now look at us. Ellis has gone, he's history. You can't just cherry pick the Ellis era for the bad bits because it wasn't all that bad.
So am I. As posted elsewhere, lots of times, I am annoyed at Lerner for a lot of things.
And no, it's also not fair to say everything about the Ellis era was bad, but ultimately, if you're going to give Lerner stick for pushing us close to relegation, and then start making comparisons to Ellis, he got us actual relegation.
That period from the early 70s to the late 80s must be the most rollercoaster period for pretty much any club.
Third division to League and European Champions in just over a decade, and then back to Division 2 in five years.
I am one of those people who'll go on about what a great time we had at some of those grounds in the 87-8 second division year, but let's be entirely honest, being out of the top flight is fucking rubbish.
The fact that Ellis got us there that quickly was pretty remarkable.
Lerner's problems are failings are pretty easy to spot, but what you can't deny is that he's put a lot of money in. I disagree entirely with the speed with which he has got us cutting back now, as it risks our top flight status, but he did put the money there.
If you're looking at it on a financial level , Doug never put a penny of his own money in.
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I've read your post and it seems to be arguing with people's reasons for posting rather than the substance of what is being said.
Not entirely sure that's right but I'm beyond arguing! I was just saying that slagging Ellis off for telling the world he gives money to charities is rather counter-productive, surely any publicity is good yes?
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I went to nearly every away game in 87/88 and even though it was a laugh I just couldn't wait to get back to division 1 because it was shit being a second tier club. I remember the feeling of dread after we were relegated. It was horrible. That's probably why I'm so hard on Lerner because I just don't want to see it happen again. I'm also hard on him because this wasn't the dream we were sold when he took over, and I'm angry at all the cost cutting over the last 3 years. The poor signings dressed up as "young and hungry" players. He must think we're all mad to fall for that one.
Keep us in the PL this season and he's got away with it, but anymore cost cutting and it'll be just a matter of time till we're relegated.
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I've read your post and it seems to be arguing with people's reasons for posting rather than the substance of what is being said.
Not entirely sure that's right but I'm beyond arguing! I was just saying that slagging Ellis off for telling the world he gives money to charities is rather counter-productive, surely any publicity is good yes?
I don't think the meat producers selling meals with horse in them would agree with you!
On a serious level, I doubt it makes any significant difference. In reality who is really likely to be encouraged to give because Ellis did? Blues fans?
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I just don't get why every time ellis crops up in a thread, as soon as somebody has a pop at him they get labelled as a Randy-worshipper. Ellis was responsible for the worst managerial appointment in our history in McNeill, then fell on his feet insofaras four of the five that followed would've crawled over broken glass to get the job. Were it not for the promise of tv money, our famous ground would remain a crumbling monument to its former glories. As for Mr Lerner, affable as he may seem, it would appear he could've done with inheriting business acumen along with his fortune. But they are not alone. The stewardship of our club during the majority of the last eighty years would dismay those that grew it from its origins.
Giving money to charity? Surely we all should when we can. Gets you in the paper? Whoop-di-do.
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I just don't get why every time ellis crops up in a thread, as soon as somebody has a pop at him they get labelled as a Randy-worshipper. Ellis was responsible for the worst managerial appointment in our history in McNeill, then fell on his feet insofaras four of the five that followed would've crawled over broken glass to get the job. Were it not for the promise of tv money, our famous ground would remain a crumbling monument to its former glories. As for Mr Lerner, affable as he may seem, it would appear he could've done with inheriting business acumen along with his fortune. But they are not alone. The stewardship of our club during the majority of the last eighty years would dismay those that grew it from its origins.
Giving money to charity? Surely we all should when we can. Gets you in the paper? Whoop-di-do.
You've touched on two of the reasons there why Doug was lucky. Whenever he was in the shit he always managed to find a manager who was in the right place at the right time. Sir Graham wanted a job that summer and we were the biggest going, plus his mate worked literally round the corner, BFR had his 'now or never' moment with the Villa job in 1991 and Brian was always going to be Villa manager one day. The other reason was that with the Premier League's increasing world domination, TV money and the Stock Exchange's brief love affair with football, the nineties were a time when more money than ever came in to the game and all the top clubs had to do was hold their hands out for it. Of course some went out to grab as much as they could while others sat back content with what they were given, but that's another story.
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Randy or Lerner?
How do we refer to him?
Never met or had dealings with him so I prefer Lerner.
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There will always be people with resentment towards doug and they have good reason but I think its worth noting he made mistakes and did some very bad things and also some very good things- he wasnt all bad.
Also people saying he took over the European champions and were relegated within 5 years - it's also worth noting that the team who won the European cup had finished 11th in the league that year - so it could equally be said he took over a team that had just finished 11th and they were relegated within 5 years
The treatment of tony Barton was unacceptable and he made other serious mistakes but i do hope in the passing of time that when doug is no longer with us people let bygones be bygones .
I fully understand the reasons some dislike him greatly but Ilike I say he was a mixture of good and bad and i still respect him.
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The failings of Villa under Ellis are the same failings manifested by the city of Birmingham. Complacency about its position; a lack of ambition; a failure to realise its strength.
Manchester isn't half the city that Birmingham could be, but it values its heritage, sets its sights high and makes te most of what it has.
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And FFS eastie, he's not dead yet. It's a bit premature to be talking about how we should respond to his minute's silence.
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It's Doug all over. No, he didn't have to give it and no, he didn't have to make it public but that's what his generation do, or rather did - "Put something back" and in return get your photo in the papers handing over an oversized cheque, usually while wearing a dinner jacket and oversized bow tie (preferably velvet). Donate a bit more and get the building of your choice named after you.
The old bastard never donated fuck all to us but still got his name on a building.
The quote made by SGT 'There are fundamental problems at Aston Villa, a club run by Doug Ellis, for Doug Ellis and on behalf of Doug Ellis'. could not ring with more truth.
As for the minutes silence eastie....will I fuck.
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"I do a lot of work for charidee, but I don't like to pay tax"
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IMO HDE's 'crime' was one of mediocrity: during the money heaven of the 1990's we failed to exploit the opportunities and settled for mid-table safety (a position, ironically, that we currently crave).
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Quite. It was the limit of his ambition. He was always a mediocre, provincial man at heart.
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Wasn't he really just one of the very last of that old traditional school of club owners? Moderately successful provincial businessmen wanting to boost their stock on their patch by owning the local football club?
Doug, Swales, even Louis Edwards - a travel agent, a television salesman and a butcher - that type, of which Doug was the last.
Look at the sort of people who own top flight football clubs nowadays, and it is totally different. It is just that, for us, Doug held on for ages.
I guess the only one of the traditional big clubs in that sort of ownership now is Everton, and even Bill Kenwright is a bit more lah di dah West End than provincial, truth be told.
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Wasn't he really just one of the very last of that old traditional school of club owners? Moderately successful provincial businessmen wanting to boost their stock on their patch by owning the local football club?
Doug, Swales, even Louis Edwards - a travel agent, a television salesman and a butcher - that type, of which Doug was the last.
Look at the sort of people who own top flight football clubs nowadays, and it is totally different. It is just that, for us, Doug held on for ages.
I guess the only one of the traditional big clubs in that sort of ownership now is Everton, and even Bill Kenwright is a bit more lah di dah West End than provincial, truth be told.
I wonder then, if "leveraging their brand" is the modern global equivalent of the old parochial "boosting their stock".
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Before our relegation in 1987 the fall from grace of England's biggest and wealthiest club from European Cup Winners in 1968 to relegation six years later was probably the most monumental cluster fuck in football history. I reckon Doug wanted to go one better and did it in style.
It obviously wasn't all bad under Doug, but even when it was going well you always knew he wouldn't build on it and we'd end up going backwards. To me it felt like he held us back for 25 years.
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Fwiw.... Dougies efforts in the Birmingham Mail are nothing compared to the tear-shedding, mansion owning, Ferrari driving, prime time TV promoting wankstains on Comic Relief this evening.
Self promotion and hypocrisy from some of the richest people in the UK will once again be overlooked, no doubt.