Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: aj2k77 on January 13, 2013, 10:33:42 AM
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Honest question. Would you rather have deadly running the show or Lerner?
Would Doug ever have just got bored with us like Lerner has? For all his failings no one can question Doug cared for the Villa, he just cared about himself more. As for Randy, who knows what he really thinks about us right now, he never says a word, he never issues anything on his behalf, the ships just sails on rudderless silently in the dark awaiting it's sinking.
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Neither.
They are both fools.
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Ellis every day of the week.
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Would seem the lesser of two evils at the moment, tho' would love to know what Doug makes of our current plight!
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Money.
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
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Doug
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
Simple. Lerner is worse.
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
Simple. Lerner is worse.
good point, i like your logic and you make some very valid points! rose tinted spectacles more like i think!
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Well this is like asking whether you'd prefer to eat cat shit or dog shit.
Lerner coming in just delayed the relegation Ellis' Villa were about to suffer.
Ellis looked after Ellis as always.
But Ellis was a wily old fox of the football world. Randy is anything but.
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
Simple. Lerner is worse.
I'm still waiting for Lerner Out cards and Pound signs to be printed, both of which happened under Doug.
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If nothing happens in January those banners will be out in force for the City game
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
Simple. Lerner is worse.
I'm still waiting for Lerner Out cards and Pound signs to be printed, both of which happened under Doug.
There's no point. He's never there.
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Ellis every day of the week.
saunders, very apt choice of name and to choose ellis is surprising as he was the man who drove saunders from the club. met most of the 82 cup winners and everyone to a man hated doug ellis. why would you choose him?
Simple. Lerner is worse.
I'm still waiting for Lerner Out cards and Pound signs to be printed, both of which happened under Doug.
There's no point. He's never there.
He was for the Wigan game i think but i'm not sure.
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Doug. At least we would have the AGM to look forward to with the added attraction of action group leaders flouncing out.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
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Doug .only because he would not have gave MON the money to waste.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
At least Doug still turns up for every game and his double the age of the other plonker.
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Lerner just makes you forget what a truly shit chairman Doug was, they are both terrible, it's just Randy threw lots of money at it
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Doug would have had to have sold one day, and Steve Stride would have also left at some point. Is Doug or Lerner the problem? Or did Doug sell to Lerner about 5 years too late
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
The amount of money Lerner has put in since he's been here would prove you wrong.
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Although Ellis would never have appointed McLeish, Lerner was either blissfully ignorant or wilfully stupid in appointing him.
Nor would he have allowed O'Neill to dish out inflated contracts like a demented schoolboy who has just commandered the school tuck shop.
Having said that, he held us back time after time, so although he has more nous than our current dimwit, I wouldn't want either.
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We've got no money, Doug Ellis has more than Smaug the dragon - if things are that desperate ask our president nicely surely he could help us out of the shit short term, alternatively make him pay for match tickets, hospitality and car parking that would pay for a loan signing until the end of the season.
Off the field Randy wins hands down however this is a football club and if we're not winning matches the rest doesn't matter.
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Its like saying, Ken Bates or Peter Risdale imo.
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I'm not buying the revisionist 'Uncle Doug' crap. He was dreadful and Lerner is not doing any better. One thing I will say is at least Doug's mega ego meant he was always around, rather than our current peculiar reclusive absent owner.
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Doug saved the club in the late 60s without him we may not be talking about this now.
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Got to be Lerner. Ellis used AVFC as a vehicle of self promotion and used the club as his personal fifedom. Then screwed the fans for £11 a share when he made himself a fortune first time around and then sold the rest to Lerner for another small fortune. Forgive maybe, but never forget how he screwed us big time.
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I'm not buying the revisionist 'Uncle Doug' crap. He was dreadful and Lerner is not doing any better. One thing I will say is at least Doug's mega ego meant he was always around, rather than our current peculiar reclusive absent owner.
From the early 90s to about 96/7, I was as proud to be a Villa fan as I've ever been. Consistently good managers, great players, excellent football, nearly always around the top of the table and two trophies. The current set up is a disgrace, and Lerner a ****** of the first water.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
The amount of money Lerner has put in since he's been here would prove you wrong.
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That'll be the amount of money he has LOANED to the club with interest after he bought a big premier league club on the cheap.
Doug, for all his faults, wouldn't have allowed our (once) great club to be turned into the laughing stock it now is.
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I'm not buying the revisionist 'Uncle Doug' crap. He was dreadful and Lerner is not doing any better. One thing I will say is at least Doug's mega ego meant he was always around, rather than our current peculiar reclusive absent owner.
From the early 90s to about 96/7, I was as proud to be a Villa fan as I've ever been. Consistently good managers, great players, excellent football, nearly always around the top of the table and two trophies. The current set up is a disgrace, and Lerner a c*** of the first water.
Nice comparison, neatly using the best of Ellis's time, the worst of Randy's and ignoring a couple of relegation battles.
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Got to be Lerner. Ellis used AVFC as a vehicle of self promotion and used the club as his personal fifedom. Then screwed the fans for £11 a share when he made himself a fortune first time around and then sold the rest to Lerner for another small fortune. Forgive maybe, but never forget how he screwed us big time.
And you think we're not screwed now?
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isn't this totally academic? If you love Aston Villa you carry on supporting the club no matter who is in charge, who is playing and in what division. I went to my first game in 1962 so have seen everything this club can throw at you good and bad. I've lost count of the number of times I've said to mysef, fuck it that's it, no more. And as soon as kick off time arrives again , nothing else but the Villa matters. if we go down, we go down, it's happened before and we've come back from it.
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Doug
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isn't this totally academic? If you love Aston Villa you carry on supporting the club no matter who is in charge, who is playing and in what division. I went to my first game in 1962 so have seen everything this club can throw at you good and bad. I've lost count of the number of times I've said to mysef, fuck it that's it, no more. And as soon as kick off time arrives again , nothing else but the Villa matters. if we go down, we go down, it's happened before and we've come back from it.
Of course we still all love the Villa. Doesn't mean we have to accept the appalling way the club is being run.
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A vote option would be useful here , my vote would also go to HD Ellis.
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Poll added. It had to take some serious fuck up for people to want Doug back.
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The only thing that worries me on this poll is the media getting hold of it and going to Town on it.
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The only thing that worries me on this poll is the media getting hold of it and going to Town on it.
Doesn't worry me if lerner sees he's unpopular, doug lived with it for long enough.
Maybe he will sell up if he feels he's not wanted. ( wishful thinking)
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I'm not buying the revisionist 'Uncle Doug' crap. He was dreadful and Lerner is not doing any better. One thing I will say is at least Doug's mega ego meant he was always around, rather than our current peculiar reclusive absent owner.
From the early 90s to about 96/7, I was as proud to be a Villa fan as I've ever been. Consistently good managers, great players, excellent football, nearly always around the top of the table and two trophies. The current set up is a disgrace, and Lerner a c*** of the first water.
Nice comparison, neatly using the best of Ellis's time, the worst of Randy's and ignoring a couple of relegation battles.
Selective indeed.
Lets not forget also all the money The old c**t put into the club...
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Doug .only because he would not have gave MON the money to waste.
He would. The money wasted by Gregory was at least the equal of MON. For example 100% losses on the likes of Stone,Dublin,Merson,Stone,Hadgi, Angel, Ginola, Balaban, and Alpay and significant losses on Thompson, Watson adds up to around 50 million.
This profligacy was the start of our troubles and the reason that there was little money for Taylor and then O'Leary to spend.
If Randy hadn't bailed us out in 2006 we'd have probably been relegated over the next 2 seasons, which would have been Ellis's 2nd relegation from the top flight and 3rd in all.
Not that I've got much time for Lerner, for me these two clowns are as bad as each other. Ellis is still insisting that his sale to Lerner was great for Aston Villa, and he'll keep saying that even if we go down, simply because it was his decision and with Doug it's always been about self justification first and foremost.
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No plans for the Holte to be renamed 'The Randy End` then ?
Be a nice birthday surprise for him.
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Can never forgive Doug for the treatment of Tony Barton!!!! We could have ruled the 80's if he had been allowed to manage us without the monkey on his back, And appointing Graham Turner and Billy McNeil
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
The amount of money Lerner has put in since he's been here would prove you wrong.
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That'll be the amount of money he has LOANED to the club with interest after he bought a big premier league club on the cheap.
Doug, for all his faults, wouldn't have allowed our (once) great club to be turned into the laughing stock it now is.
Rotterdam to relegation in five easy years, Juninho, that list of proposed signings, "Do any of you know who this is?", the shares fiasco, his mate the Inter manager Henry Cooper, Robbie Keane.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
The amount of money Lerner has put in since he's been here would prove you wrong.
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That'll be the amount of money he has LOANED to the club with interest after he bought a big premier league club on the cheap.
Doug, for all his faults, wouldn't have allowed our (once) great club to be turned into the laughing stock it now is.
Rotterdam to relegation in five easy years, Juninho, that list of proposed signings, "Do any of you know who this is?", the shares fiasco, his mate the Inter manager Henry Cooper, Robbie Keane.
Bit harsh dave, he didn't say "do any of you know who this is " - it was "how many of you know who this is"
:)
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The failure to sign Keane had nothing to do with Ellis, It was Gregory who didn't think he was good enough for the fee required.
I also think Gregory's thinking might have been influenced by Siralex's comments saying that he would only 'pay about £500,000 for a player like that.'
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What a choice. The chair or lethal injection?
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What a choice. The chair or lethal injection?
Great stuff.
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Ellis - Lethal injection
Blandy - The chair
At least the injection is quick and painless.
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The failure to sign Keane had nothing to do with Ellis, It was Gregory who didn't think he was good enough for the fee required.
I also think Gregory's thinking might have been influenced by Siralex's comments saying that he would only 'pay about £500,000 for a player like that.'
That's true , Gregory was after two players one of whom was Keane and when he spoke to Ellis saying he ewasnt sure which to go for , doug replied "why not get both?"
Gregory said on watching Keane again that another reason he decided against him when wolves fans were coming up saying ' you've got to sign him '- which he found very strange.
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Ellis - Lethal injection
Blandy - The chair
At least the injection is quick and painless.
To be fair, Ellis is more like being put down over a long period of time, whereas Lerner is someone with a blunt axe trying to hit a tree and constantly getting you instead.
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What a choice. The chair or lethal injection?
Great stuff.
Go on dc5 you know you loved the drama of doug 'keeping his powder dry'
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Gregory said on watching Keane again that another reason he decided against him when wolves fans were coming up saying ' you've got to sign him '- which he found very strange.
According to Gregory, he watched him against Man City (he scored the winner in a 1-0 victory) but thought his overall play 'was nothing special.'
A bit of an idiotic opinion as he was on his own upfront for that game.
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Ellis - Lethal injection
Blandy - The chair
At least the injection is quick and painless.
whereas Lerner is someone with a blunt axe trying to hit a tree and constantly getting you instead.
Whilst Lerner shouts out 'Laavverly, Laavverly' over and over again like Barry Morse in the Hitchcock 'Frenzy' film.
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I'm not buying the revisionist 'Uncle Doug' crap. He was dreadful and Lerner is not doing any better. One thing I will say is at least Doug's mega ego meant he was always around, rather than our current peculiar reclusive absent owner.
From the early 90s to about 96/7, I was as proud to be a Villa fan as I've ever been. Consistently good managers, great players, excellent football, nearly always around the top of the table and two trophies. The current set up is a disgrace, and Lerner a c*** of the first water.
Nice comparison, neatly using the best of Ellis's time, the worst of Randy's and ignoring a couple of relegation battles.
Selective indeed.
Lets not forget also all the money The old c**t put into the club...
As opposed to the money Lerner has loaned to the club?
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Do you want a man in charge who invented the bicycle kick or the cloaking device ?
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Victor Meldrew or Mr Magoo?
I'll vote for Victor. At least Doug knew what he was doing (for better or worse). He loves the club too.
Randy's just a bit clueless really. I don't see him as the criminal mastermind, maniacally laughing as he takes us into oblivion. I just think he's Frank Spencer with money and he's at our club.
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Do you want a man in charge who invented the bicycle kick or the cloaking device ?
Damn , you made me spill my lager !
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God knows the charge sheet against Doug was long enough, but as I - and others - have said before, at least he knew football world inside out and, more to the point, everyone knew who he was. He knew whose hand to shake and everyone would take his call. Plus, as a master of bull-shit himself, he could spot it a mile off. I can't imagine Doug being impressed by a letter from Sir Alex, when all the necessary evidence to the contrary was sitting a few of miles away.
Doug made mistakes. Some very big ones. His treatment of Tony Barton was disgraceful and the razing to the ground of the Trinity Road stand was sacrilege. However, he also took the club from the brink of oblivion to a mainstay of the top division, with a few Wembley appearances along the way. For the most part, the journey under Doug - certainly up until about 2000 - had more ups than downs. And more to the point, the downs were very quickly followed by an up.
Lerner, on the other hand, seems clueless to the workings of English football, is an absentee landlord who has appointed a management team who seem incapable of even the fundamentals, and has set the club on a trajectory that I increasingly fear means one relegation is the least of our worries.
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Do you want a man in charge who invented the bicycle kick or the cloaking device ?
Damn , you made me spill my lager !
Lager at this time of day? I know things are bad (they're actually bloody shite) but get a grip man. ;)
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God knows the charge sheet against Doug was long enough, but as I - and others - have said before, at least he knew football world inside out and, more to the point, everyone knew who he was. He knew whose hand to shake and everyone would take his call. Plus, as a master of bull-shit himself, he could spot it a mile off. I can't imagine Doug being impressed by a letter from Sir Alex, when all the necessary evidence to the contrary was sitting a few of miles away.
Doug made mistakes. Some very big ones. His treatment of Tony Barton was disgraceful and the razing to the ground of the Trinity Road stand was sacrilege. However, he also took the club from the brink of oblivion to a mainstay of the top division, with a few Wembley appearances along the way. For the most part, the journey under Doug - certainly up until about 2000 - had more ups than downs. And more to the point, the downs were very quickly followed by an up.
Lerner, on the other hand, seems clueless to the workings of English football, is an absentee landlord who has appointed a management team who seem incapable of even the fundamentals, and has set the club on a trajectory that I increasingly fear means one relegation is the least of our worries.
Since when has being European champions been "the point of oblivion"?
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Do you want a man in charge who invented the bicycle kick or the cloaking device ?
Damn , you made me spill my lager !
Lager at this time of day? I know things are bad (they're actually bloody shite) but get a grip man. ;)
I find it helps take away the pain.
Was teetotal till the Chelsea game :)
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Since when has being European champions been "the point of oblivion"?
I was referring to when he first walked in through the door in 1968
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:D
What a choice. The chair or lethal injection?
Great stuff.
Go on dc5 you know you loved the drama of doug 'keeping his powder dry'
At Doug's age, you'd be grateful to keep anything dry
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Since when has being European champions been "the point of oblivion"?
I was referring to when he first walked in through the door in 1968
When he didn't take over.
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He's behind you.
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8905/imagedbvq.jpg)
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All right, became chairman for the first time.
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As part of a consortium, financed by Pat Matthews and supporters. We also got relegated the year after.
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HDE has a myriad of faults that are well known to all here. In his favour he made a contribution to the resurgence from the nadir of 3rd division football and under his direct control we competed from time to time with the very best and won trophies.
RAL has a myriad of faults. Unfortunately he has failed to match Doug's best period and is likely to match the worst.
Doug in his pomp was miles better. Senile Doug and the current RAL - probably a tie - which if nothing else shoul tell you how shote Lerner is.
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:DWhat a choice. The chair or lethal injection?
Great stuff.
Go on dc5 you know you loved the drama of doug 'keeping his powder dry'
At Doug's age, you'd be grateful to keep anything dry
ah dear! Proper laughed at that.....
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All Football chairmen are hoping to find the next Alex Ferguson, or Arsene Wenger and get success on the cheap, Ellis never succeeded and neither has Lerner. They have both had periods of investment and periods of non investment. We were relegated under Ellis, and it is looking increasingly likely it will happen again.
Ellis would have sacked Lambert and looked again for his new Alex Ferguson, Lerner appears either more patient or distant.
Success on the pitch comes from the manager with support from chairman, usually a manager needs lots of money Man city/chelsea or time Moyes/wenger. We dont have pots of money, so i reckon Lerner is hoping it comes good eventually.
Lerner for me
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
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Haven't voted for either of them. It's like politics in this country - a choice of shit and shit. I have no time for Doug but he would have acted or made a statement to the press. Thats what he did for good or bad - he sacked managers or forced them out when no-one was really calling for them to be sacked or stuck by unpopular managers and was seen to be behind them. Lerner, well take away the money and i'm struggling for any positives. The club seems to just drift on a sea of Inertia and has done since pubehead walked out. Anyone expecting a press release this week backing the manager or the opposite? Nope neither am i.
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At least when Doug gave the vote of confidence you knew what was coming.
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Tweedledumb or Tweedledumber.
Just say no, kids.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
This for me.
For all Dougs faults (of which there were many), I honestly believe he always cared about the club to a degree. I feel like Lerner couldn't give two shits to be honest.
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Its like saying who would you shag?
Susan Boyle or Heather from Eastenders
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Doug .only because he would not have gave MON the money to waste.
He would. The money wasted by Gregory was at least the equal of MON. For example 100% losses on the likes of Stone,Dublin,Merson,Stone,Hadgi, Angel, Ginola, Balaban, and Alpay and significant losses on Thompson, Watson adds up to around 50 million.
This profligacy was the start of our troubles and the reason that there was little money for Taylor and then O'Leary to spend.
If Randy hadn't bailed us out in 2006 we'd have probably been relegated over the next 2 seasons, which would have been Ellis's 2nd relegation from the top flight and 3rd in all.
Not that I've got much time for Lerner, for me these two clowns are as bad as each other. Ellis is still insisting that his sale to Lerner was great for Aston Villa, and he'll keep saying that even if we go down, simply because it was his decision and with Doug it's always been about self justification first and foremost.
I heard today 2008-2009 , we were the biggest spenders in the whole of Europe.
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a vote for William Dugdale
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
I know the demise was rapid under doug but in fairness the team he took over although European winners had just finished 11th in the league before he returned, a drop in league position of 10 places from the previous year.
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This question should have been posed on February 1st. Lerner may wake up and pull a couple of season-saving signings out of the hat in the next few weeks.
Mind you, even if he doesn't I still wouldn't want Ellis back.
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When Doug and The Doc were in their pomp it was the most exciting time of my life as an Aston Villa supporter
Funnily enough Lerner and Lambert dont have the same effect!
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When Doug and The Doc were in their pomp it was the most exciting time of my life as an Aston Villa supporter
Funnily enough Lerner and Lambert dont have the same effect!
Didn't we get relegated then though.
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When Doug and The Doc were in their pomp it was the most exciting time of my life as an Aston Villa supporter
Funnily enough Lerner and Lambert dont have the same effect!
Thank God.Tommy Doc helped to relegate Villa and Wolves to Div3 and Man Utd to Div2 and falling out with an unbelievably talented young squad atChelsea that he had inherited from the previous manager.
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
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Can we have a none of the above option?
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Must admit i am surprised Lerner has 43% of the vote with the clubs current position.
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Got to be Lerner. Ellis used AVFC as a vehicle of self promotion and used the club as his personal fifedom. Then screwed the fans for £11 a share when he made himself a fortune first time around and then sold the rest to Lerner for another small fortune. Forgive maybe, but never forget how he screwed us big time.
And you think we're not screwed now?
Tell me how much money Lerner is making out of me and then compare it to the share issue by Ellis that's being screwed. You are not one of the guys who think Ellis actually put his own money into the club are you?
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
I also believe that Doug never saddled us with massive debt. Is that right?
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Has Randy actually given us any money or is it all a loan?
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
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If Randy walks away will he get back all the money he spent?
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
Well there's an achievement, and no mistake. He kept us up for 18 years - what's ruining the European Champions compared to that?
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Lerner over Ellis every day of the week.
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Didn't he try and sell Gary Shaw to Barcelona ? Or is that one a myth ?
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Didn't he try and sell Gary Shaw to Barcelona ? Or is that one a myth ?
It's true. On the night we played them.
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
I have to concede to you that I didn't live through it and from one with a strong interest in the club's history I agree that relegation in '87 is a serious stain on Ellis' record.
You must concede though that clubs like Leeds suffered relegation in the 80s after long periods of dominance and that relegation wasn't the financial disaster that it would be today. We came back and quickly became a top first division club again (as did Leeds), whereas relegation for Leeds and Shefield Wednesday in the Premier League era has been an unmitigated disaster.
And, if Ellis is the devil incarnate, surely you must also concede it is quite an achievement on Lerner's behalf to have created a situation where so many of us are looking back wistfully at the Ellis era?
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
Well there's an achievement, and no mistake. He kept us up for 18 years - what's ruining the European Champions compared to that?
Well we were hardly ruined as we came back just the season after and have been here ever since.
For all his faults he had Villa's best interest at heart. Do you think the same of Lerner?
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
I have to concede to you that I didn't live through it and from one with a strong interest in the club's history I agree that relegation in '87 is a serious stain on Ellis' record.
You must concede though that clubs like Leeds suffered relegation in the 80s after long periods of dominance and that relegation wasn't the financial disaster that it would be today. We came back and quickly became a top first division club again (as did Leeds), whereas relegation for Leeds and Shefield Wednesday in the Premier League era has been an unmitigated disaster.
And, if Ellis is the devil incarnate, surely you must also concede it is quite an achievement on Lerner's behalf to have created a situation where so many of us are looking back wistfully at the Ellis era?
People buy war books. It doesn't mean they want to fight another one.
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And I'm not sticking up for Ellis, held us back for so long and was a twat. It's just that Lerner is allowing us to sink and is showing no leadership. As somebody said to me yesterday, Villa look like a club that's waiting desperately for something to galvanise them but there's no sign of anything like that happening and so they are just listless.
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
Well there's an achievement, and no mistake. He kept us up for 18 years - what's ruining the European Champions compared to that?
The team he took over had just finished 11 th in the league dave , yes it was broken up too soon but it's harsh to blame doug totally when the slide in the league of 10 places happened before he came back.
I am not saying he's blameless but when we were relegated we had dropped from 11th t o relegation in those 5 years , not from 1st to relegation.
Doug made many mistakes but he wasnt all bad.
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Doug. Two 2nd places, 2 cups.
Lerner had one chance and he spunked it on MON.
If he doesnt back PL in the next 2 weeks to buy a couple of decent players then I would like him to put the for sale sign up.
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People buy war books. It doesn't mean they want to fight another one.
Or perhaps they want to whistfully recall another time when, despite all the very real hardships, there was a sense of common purpose that is sadly lacking today.
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Looking at it objectively, Doug was in charge when well run clubs had a chance of competing at the top without necessarily spending fortunes, see the likes of Forest, Norwich, us, Sheffield Wednesday, Wimbledon etc. As the Premier League has gone on, and more foreign billionaires have come in, this has been steadily eroded. It's just our luck that our foreign billionaire owner is an idiot.
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
Well there's an achievement, and no mistake. He kept us up for 18 years - what's ruining the European Champions compared to that?
The team he took over had just finished 11 th in the league dave , yes it was broken up too soon but it's harsh to blame doug totally when the slide in the league of 10 places happened before he came back.
I am not saying he's blameless but when we were relegated we had dropped from 11th t o relegation in those 5 years , not from 1st to relegation.
Doug made many mistakes but he wasnt all bad.
They'd just won the European Cup, or had that slipped your attention?
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The Invisible man? Does it really matter if he's at the game or not? Doug never missed a game but that never stopped us being shit and getting relegated. It also never made him financially support his manager every bloody window.
A chairman's role is very simple, you just need three things:
1. Appoint a good manager.
2. Financially support him.
3. Let the manager get on with him job.
On point one, Randy Lerner made a big mistake with TSM but we were all in agreement he'd made up for it with Lambert.
On point two, up until now, Lerner has always supported his manager. We are a top 6 spending side since his arrival.
On three, unlike Ellis, Lerner is not claiming to be 'Director of Football', he let's the man get on with his job, as it should be.
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It begs the question: why did Lerner buy the villa in first place as it seems very apathetic.
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
True, but you missed out the bit about him giving us our longest unbroken stint in the top division in decades?
Well there's an achievement, and no mistake. He kept us up for 18 years - what's ruining the European Champions compared to that?
The team he took over had just finished 11 th in the league dave , yes it was broken up too soon but it's harsh to blame doug totally when the slide in the league of 10 places happened before he came back.
I am not saying he's blameless but when we were relegated we had dropped from 11th t o relegation in those 5 years , not from 1st to relegation.
Doug made many mistakes but he wasnt all bad.
They'd just won the European Cup, or had that slipped your attention?
Yes we had just won the European cup and finished 11th in the league that same season - the team was broken up too quickly and the turner appointment a huge risk , but those 5 yrs since Ellis took over saw us from 11th to relegation .
The fortunate thing is he appointed the perfect man in graham Taylor to get the club back up and turned around - an appointment as good as the McNeill one was bad .
Doug was frustrating and made a lot of errors but his reign was by no means a total disaster.
The fact that he presided over promotion at the 1st attempt and we were runners up 2 years later, and again runners up 3 years later seems to be glossed over by the bad times- there were many highs and lows under doug .
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It wasn't a disaster but he started at a much better point than Randy did and had a LOT of luck - not least Graham Taylor becoming available at the exact time we were the best option for him and when Sir Graham's closest friend was running a shop in Witton Road. As I said earlier, you're also judging his best years against Randy's worst.
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Fair enough dave , Even now I often wonder what would have happened if England hasn't came calling and Taylor had spent a few more years with us , it was very sad to lose him when we did but of course he had to take the job.
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
That £200+ million is a loan though isn't it?
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Fair enough dave , Even now I often wonder what would have happened if England hasn't came calling and Taylor had spent a few more years with us , it was very sad to lose him when we did but of course he had to take the job.
We'd have won the league within two years. I've always been convinced of that.
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There is one man who runs the show when Lerner is not around. Faulkner.
No coincidence since his arrival, we are - where we are.
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Doug! For all his faults at least he showed he love the Villa.
By sacking a European Cup winning manager and replacing him with Hereford's manager?
By taking us from Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 seasons?
By overseeing the destruction of our famous Trinity Road stand?
Shrewsbury Town actually.
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I can't say I like either of them but for me Ellis was worse. A lot of people seem to have forgotten just how bad he was (we should dig up some of the old threads on here it would make interesting reading).
Some of the things Ellis did we can never forget:-
Taking a team that was European Champions to relegation in five years.
His treatment of Tony Barton and his family.
For me as well it was his inability to take us to the next level especially at the start of the Premiership. When it started we were easily on par with teams like Arsenal he completely wasted that opportunity and we have never recovered from that.
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
That £200+ million is a loan though isn't it?
I think so, I'm not 100% sure.
Also, I seem to remember reading that the club is charged for something like 'administrative/management services' each year? Isn't it something like £11m a year or am I wrong in that?
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Dave, I know the history. And the point remains that Ellis originally came into a club that was in seemingly terminal decline - and left it (the second time) as one of a handful of permanent fixtures in the Premier League. There was some very good seasons during his tenure - and a few best forgotten - but generally the club reached and maintained a level that it has "enjoyed" for most of the last 100 years. So whilst many of the criticisms levelled at him are, for the most part, probably justified, he didn't really sell us short in running a club that a supporter of the 1920s or 1950s would recognise: i.e. a club that was in the top flight and on an occasional basis challenging for an honour.
And got relegated twice, once from a position of strength unparalleled since 1897.
Not really like for like though.
And at least when Doug flogged players the money was reinvested (Merson and Dublin from Yorke being a prime example).
You're absolutely right it isn't like for like. Two relegations versus none. £40 million taken out versus £200 million+ put in. Shall I continue?
That £200+ million is a loan though isn't it?
I think so, I'm not 100% sure.
Also, I seem to remember reading that the club is charged for something like 'administrative/management services' each year? Isn't it something like £11m a year or am I wrong in that?
I cant be sure but I think I read somewhere that we are paying it back at around 7 or 8 million a year plus admin fees. Any of you in the financial know cafe to enlighten us?
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Thinking about it, if we think its 7 or 11 million its probably more like 15 or 16 million.
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Thinking about it, if we think its 7 or 11 million its probably more like 15 or 16 million.
Then think of all the compo we had to pay to managers over the past few years. If we sack Lambert we'd have to do the same again. You could probably sort out our midfield (decimated by the loss of and failure to replace Milner, Young, Downing & kind of Barry if you don't count Downing as his replacement), with that money.
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Thinking about it, if we think its 7 or 11 million its probably more like 15 or 16 million.
It's actually fourpence a decade.
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A chunk of Lerner's input is at LIBOR + 1% (including the initial purchase cost), a chunk is loans ay 0%, and a chunk is in the form of shares (and as sole share owner, this is essentially free). There are management fees.
Don't know the exact mix but it's not exactly a cash cow for Lerner, and the value of his investment goes well south if we get relegated.
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HDE was the lesser of two evils. After a promising start Lerner has proven to be a shockingly incompetent owner, Mike Ashley is the only current Premier league owner / chairman that I can think of that is possibly worse than him.
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Anything in the old saying 'better the devil you know'?
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
This for me.
For all Dougs faults (of which there were many), I honestly believe he always cared about the club to a degree. I feel like Lerner couldn't give two shits to be honest.
Doug cared about the club so much he sold us to a guy who couldn't give 2 shits about us, and repeatedly tells us what a brilliant decision it was.
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
This for me.
For all Dougs faults (of which there were many), I honestly believe he always cared about the club to a degree. I feel like Lerner couldn't give two shits to be honest.
Doug cared about the club so much he sold us to a guy who couldn't give 2 shits about us, and repeatedly tells us what a brilliant decision it was.
Bit harsh , were you thinking that when we got to Wembley and challenger for 4th place ? I think randy gave it his best shot to make the top 4 , it's only since o Neill went things have slipped badly .
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At least Ellis looked like he cared for the club. The prat we've got now couldn't give two shites.
This for me.
For all Dougs faults (of which there were many), I honestly believe he always cared about the club to a degree. I feel like Lerner couldn't give two shits to be honest.
Doug cared about the club so much he sold us to a guy who couldn't give 2 shits about us, and repeatedly tells us what a brilliant decision it was.
Were you saying that when he spent £18m on Darren Bent?
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Thinking about it, if we think its 7 or 11 million its probably more like 15 or 16 million.
It's actually fourpence a decade.
Oh Dave you just crack me up...
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As ever when results are going badly people look around for people to blame and will lash out in all directions. However, I can only assume some sort of collective madness if people are pining for Ellis.
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ellis.......by a whisker
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As ever when results are going badly people look around for people to blame and will lash out in all directions. However, I can only assume some sort of collective madness if people are pining for Ellis.
I think Randy started out with good intentions but has fucked it up and lost interest.
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As ever when results are going badly people look around for people to blame and will lash out in all directions. However, I can only assume some sort of collective madness if people are pining for Ellis.
I think Randy started out with good intentions but has fucked it up and lost interest.
Quite possibly true.
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Lets be honest, we were all delighted when Lerner came in and couldn't foresee the mess we are in now. I think his intentions were always good but knowledge of the game about nil. It feels like he has lost interest in the club. Ellis had more of an understanding of the game and still has an interest. So for me, it's money or experience? You need both which neither of the two provided.
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Here's a question which will probably seem very naive to many of you, but I'm really no expert when it comes to financial things. Is Lerner a billionaire in the sense that, we'll, he has a billion dollars in his account, or is it such that he has assets and whatnot that are worth a billion?
Because if its the former, he could actually afford to go quite mental in the transfer market if he wanted, couldn't he?
As I say, I'm probably missing something glaringly simple on this one, but I was just wondering, really (I'm watching the NFL and was thinking of the sale of the Browns).
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Here's a question which will probably seem very naive to many of you, but I'm really no expert when it comes to financial things. Is Lerner a billionaire in the sense that, we'll, he has a billion dollars in his account, or is it such that he has assets and whatnot that are worth a billion?
Because if its the former, he could actually afford to go quite mental in the transfer market if he wanted, couldn't he?
As I say, I'm probably missing something glaringly simple on this one, but I was just wondering, really (I'm watching the NFL and was thinking of the sale of the Browns).
I think he has the money to spend but whether he has the interest or ambition I doubt .
When he took over he had a realistic crack at the top 4 but now we are so far away it would cost way too much to be realistic , he needs to avoid relegation though and should invest enough to do so, if not it would be financially mad.
Maybe the best scenario would be to invest enough to keep us up and put the club up for sale in the summer having avoided relegation.
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Two opposite characters.
Randy the nice guy who can't seem to stumble into a good decision.
Deadly, looks after number 1 yet he was as canny as they come and had some idea on running a football club.
And yes, I also think we miss Steve Stride.
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Because if its the former, he could actually afford to go quite mental in the transfer market if he wanted, couldn't he?
Well, dont forget there is this to consider...............
Football clubs wishing to take part in the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League must balance their football-related expenditure over a three-year period up to the 2014–15 season.
The 2011–12 season is the first season which counts towards the 2014–15 assessment. Clubs, however, will be allowed to make a loss of €45 million (£39.4 million) over the three years, falling to €30 million from 2015–16 IF the loss was covered by equity contribution only. The first season that UEFA will begin actively monitoring the financial situation of individual clubs is 2013–14, but this will take into account losses made in the two preceding years (2011–12 and 2012–13).
From 2013-14 UEFA will be able to ban clubs from playing in European competitions the following season if the rules have not been met but it is not until 2018 that clubs will be expected to bring their annual losses below £8.8 million (based on 2010 exchange rates)
Although from that it would appear there isn't a fat lot UEFA can do about us spending a shit load in a bid to avoid relegation.
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Both have had their faults and both have had their positives.
Randy needs a good right hand man in charge of affairs if he wants to hideaway from it all. Someone with a good business brain, footballing knowledge, not of the playing kind but the business end and also someone he could trust. PF is not this man.
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Permission to say "None of the above"?
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
I'm not questioning his motives, Dave. I'm questioning his affection for the club.
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When you compare Doug and Randy, and the time they both spend at Villa Park, you also have to bear in mind that from 1982 onwards it was Doug's full-time and very well-paid job.
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
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Don't forget Doug presided over the team that was relegated 5 years after winning the Champions Cup.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
Harsh on Doug, Dave
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
What does that mean?
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
Well Doug is President Emeritus so let him step forward.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
So anyone who follows Villa has nothing else in their life?
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This question should be renamed.....horse shit or cow shit?
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
So anyone who follows Villa has nothing else in their life?
Did I say that?
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
So anyone who follows Villa has nothing else in their life?
Did I say that?
More or less.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
So anyone who follows Villa has nothing else in their life?
Did I say that?
More or less.
I think you'll find I didn't.
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Always Randy. Randy has made mistakes, but he's invested heavily financially.
That's what we wanted. It's the idiots below him that have messed up. Obviously he takes the blame for appointing the wrong people, but he'll learn from experience. I just hope he's still interested.
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Does anyone think that RL will be attending every single game, home and away, as he turns 90?
Will he bollocks.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Like he has absolutely nothing else in his life?
So anyone who follows Villa has nothing else in their life?
Did I say that?
More or less.
I think you'll find I didn't.
I must have misunderstood then, what did you mean?
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Always Randy. Randy has made mistakes, but he's invested heavily financially.
That's what we wanted. It's the idiots below him that have messed up. Obviously he takes the blame for appointing the wrong people, but he'll learn from experience. I just hope he's still interested.
He didn't at the Browns.
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I meant that Doug goes to more or less every match because he has nothing else in his life. For all his wealth he's a very lonely man.
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I meant that Doug goes to more or less every match because he has nothing else in his life. For all his wealth he's a very lonely man.
So Dougs a sad loner for going to every game? I don't know Doug personally but does he not have a family or a life outside the Villa?
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I meant that Doug goes to more or less every match because he has nothing else in his life. For all his wealth he's a very lonely man.
So Dougs a sad loner for going to every game? I don't know Doug personally but does he not have a family or a life outside the Villa?
From every story I've heard, and what I've seen myself, you'd be amazed.
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I meant that Doug goes to more or less every match because he has nothing else in his life. For all his wealth he's a very lonely man.
So Dougs a sad loner for going to every game? I don't know Doug personally but does he not have a family or a life outside the Villa?
From every story I've heard, and what I've seen myself, you'd be amazed.
Do tell
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It's mostly gossipy stuff with no definite proof but everyone says roughly the same so often that there must be something in it. I know I've seen him sitting on his own in a roomful of people, then his face lit up when someone he knew walked in because he had somebody to talk to.
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Lerner! Lerner hands down! For fuck's sake! Attending every game is not the most important criteria: not even fucking close! Abramovitch manages that! That doesn't mean I don't think that Lerner's cocking up in a major way, just that hankering after Ellis seems revisionist in the extreme!
On a related issue: Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un?
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Lerner. Though I'd might have been inclined to vote neither, had there been such an option.
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
There is a blindingly obvious choice who could fill such a role.
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
There is a blindingly obvious choice who could fill such a role.
Obama?
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Thatcher?
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
There is a blindingly obvious choice who could fill such a role.
Obama?
Isn't Randy a Republican? I was thinking more along the lines of Graham Taylor in any case.
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Thats a very fair point, granted. However at times like this, fans want visibility of the people in power...they want reassurance and some hope that there is a plan in place. For all his faults, old Doug had something to say...even if it didn't go down too well with many. Lerner's silence is deafening.
It doesn't need Randy to say it but it does need someone. I've said that from the start. In fact, going way back to the early Doug II days one thing we've lacked is a presidential figure who everyone can respect and believe in.
There is a blindingly obvious choice who could fill such a role.
Obama?
Isn't Randy a Republican? I was thinking more along the lines of Graham Taylor in any case.
Ahh I see. Well, he's rich enough to be a Republican, though there are plenty of their traditional Republicans who are being left behind by their batshit lunacy.
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It's mostly gossipy stuff with no definite proof but everyone says roughly the same so often that there must be something in it. I know I've seen him sitting on his own in a roomful of people, then his face lit up when someone he knew walked in because he had somebody to talk to.
I'm not sure if he's a lonely man but I think he loves to be recognised and villa has given that vehicle, he does love to chat about villa and I remember him saying he eats sleeps and breathes villa - I personally have met him on several occasions and found him to be a nice chap , bit pompous maybe but of course theres a big difference to meeting someone and working for them and I can imagine he could be a very prickly employer.
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I can't really vote either both have faults in different areas. However we need someone to speak and out and let us know where the club is headed. The wall of silence is frustrating
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Always Randy. Randy has made mistakes, but he's invested heavily financially.
That's what we wanted. It's the idiots below him that have messed up. Obviously he takes the blame for appointing the wrong people, but he'll learn from experience. I just hope he's still interested.
He invested heavily but look where thats got us.
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Always Randy. Randy has made mistakes, but he's invested heavily financially.
That's what we wanted. It's the idiots below him that have messed up. Obviously he takes the blame for appointing the wrong people, but he'll learn from experience. I just hope he's still interested.
He invested heavily but looke where thats got us.
Randy is part of the blame. Only part.
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Crikey. I never thought I would see the day that people looked back on Herbie's tenure with such affection.
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The short-sighted revisionism on this thread makes one despair.
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Always Randy. Randy has made mistakes, but he's invested heavily financially.
That's what we wanted. It's the idiots below him that have messed up. Obviously he takes the blame for appointing the wrong people, but he'll learn from experience. I just hope he's still interested.
He invested heavily but looke where thats got us.
Randy is part of the blame. Only part.
He was incredibly short sighted in it all
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MON and Lerner suited each other, they both agreed on the method shit or bust. When it went bust MON walked away and Lerner was left picking up the pieces with no idea what to do
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Crikey. I never thought I would see the day that people looked back on Herbie's tenure with such affection.
The youth of today...
In Off Topic later on today, we'll be getting all misty-eyed when we start reminiscing about the good old days of rationing, public hangings, child labour and slavery.
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Doug was the one who patted himself on the back and said he was glad he sold to Lerner in 2006 and that our future was in ''safe hands'' Well those safe hands are now guiding us headlong into the Championship......well done Doug!
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
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A fool and his money are easily parted. Although, I'm happy that he is out of the way, you could never call Doug a fool.
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
That's your opinion - at 51% to 49% could hardly be closer!
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It's mostly gossipy stuff with no definite proof but everyone says roughly the same so often that there must be something in it. I know I've seen him sitting on his own in a roomful of people, then his face lit up when someone he knew walked in because he had somebody to talk to.
To be fair, that happens to me quite a bit.
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Crikey. I never thought I would see the day that people looked back on Herbie's tenure with such affection.
The youth of today...
In Off Topic later on today, we'll be getting all misty-eyed when we start reminiscing about the good old days of rationing, public hangings, child labour and slavery.
and rickets don't forget rickets!
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Doug was the one who patted himself on the back and said he was glad he sold to Lerner in 2006 and that our future was in ''safe hands'' Well those safe hands are now guiding us headlong into the Championship......well done Doug!
So it's Doug fault now as well? He could have just as easily sold to Carson Yeung or Ray Ranson.
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Back in "the old days" (ie pre-Sky!), it was a much more level playing field. Teams mostly did well or badly thanks to the efforts of the manager, and finance was much less important That's what so galling about Lerner's term, the money he's spent maybe wasn't enough to guarantee top 4 football, but it was certainly enough to guarantee that we shouldn't be in the position we are now.
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
That's your opinion - at 51% to 49% could hardly be closer!
It's now a tie. Let's give the casting vote to Ron Saunders.
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
That's your opinion - at 51% to 49% could hardly be closer!
It's now a tie. Let's give the casting vote to Ron Saunders.
Well he's voted, and Doug wins!
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
That's your opinion - at 51% to 49% could hardly be closer!
It's now a tie. Let's give the casting vote to Ron Saunders.
Why not martin o Neill? :)
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There is some serious revisionism going on here. Those who lived through Doug's years were just as frustrated as we are now if not more so. We had numerous chances to really become something. Numerous chances to bring in that one player to make us consistently compete at the very top and it was spurned time and again. Sure there were some very good years but the mere fact that he oversaw the team that won the European Cup and within 5 years they had been dismantled and the club relegated is unforgiveable. Can you imagine had this place existed back then? The massive, massive high of 1982 to watching that team destroyed and the club relegated. It puts everything that is happening now into serious perspective.
Doug didn't do everything wrong. He did a lot of goodf things and yes, we enjoyed some very good times with him in charge and some exciting football. But to even have this thread and debate it now ignores so very much that he did to hinder the progress this club should have enjoyed. Randy isn't the anti-Christ. Has he made errors or been naive. Absolutely. But stop comparing as it isn't even close.
That's your opinion - at 51% to 49% could hardly be closer!
It's now a tie. Let's give the casting vote to Ron Saunders.
How about we give the deciding to vote to Tony Barton's family?
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Lerner a c*** of the first water.
You're the first person I've seen apart from my Dad who's used that phrase.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
off course it is
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Lerner. Though I'd might have been inclined to vote neither, had there been such an option.
That's about the way I'm feeling. However I hope I may feel a bit more positive at the end of January.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Let's wait until we actually get there before using 'what ifs' as facts shall we?
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Think positively Rissbert - you can stay over at my place when we take on Southport in a couple of years time :)
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Let's wait until we actually get there before using 'what ifs' as facts shall we?
That's what I like, a bit of positive thinking.
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Let's wait until we actually get there before using 'what ifs' as facts shall we?
That's what I like, a bit of positive thinking.
but they have seen it all before,this is worse than our slide to the old third division, i have heard that for the last 3 years. until we are down i will remain positive!
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Randy everytime for me
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Think positively Rissbert - you can stay over at my place when we take on Southport in a couple of years time :)
He'll probably just want a raw turnip for dinner and to kip in your garden. He likes to be miserable, does Risso. ;)
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1,000 times Randy over Doug. I am disappointed with results under Randy but I wouldn't go back to Egoman.
So far the best times under Doug are a mile ahead of the best times under Lerner. Now I think the worst times under Lerner are about to meet and overtake those of Ellis.
...finishing below Halifax in division three.
Like I said, we're on that slippery slope. This side isn't good enough for the Championship, let alone the Premier League.
Think positively Rissbert - you can stay over at my place when we take on Southport in a couple of years time :)
My mummy warned me about talking to people like you on the internet! ;)
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To be honest i know the current situation we're in, but i find it hard to understand the attitude of many supporters to Lerner. Yes he is the owner and man at the top and so ultimately has to take the blame, but he has put a lot of money in to our club, and not only that, values and respects the history of the club.
To my mind he has made 1 critical mistake in his time here, which is probably responsible for all of the other mistakes (MoN's spending, hiring McLeish etc) and that was appointing Paul Faulkner as CEO. At the end of the day it is the CEO of a company (in this case our club) that has to take ultimate responsibility for it's results, if the company fails under his stewardship then he has to go. Faulkner has failed on so many counts it seems unbelievable that he is still here, the main thing he failed in was not getting good footballing people in to help him run the club and provide the footballing nous we have so obviously missed in the boardroom.
Also whilst we have consistently backed our managers with funds for players, as has been pointed out elsewhere, because of a lack of consistency at the club, or underlying football philosophy, we have had managers of differing styles, each picking up players to suit their styles. So now we find ourselves with one of the highest spends on players in the premiership, yet with a pretty poor and non functioning squad.
To my mind then Faulkner should be the one that shoulders most of the blame, yet we hardly ever here a mention of him on here.
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Slight change of subject, 1975 to 1982 were (mostly) glorious years, yet we had buffoons in charge then.
Bendall was absolutely hopeless, but what times the club had then.
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Randy everytime for me
I heard that rumour.
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Slight change of subject, 1975 to 1982 were (mostly) glorious years, yet we had buffoons in charge then.
Bendall was absolutely hopeless, but what times the club had then.
Most directors are/were fucking useless. Just on occaision they'd stumble upon a genius manager to make them look good.
It's no different now. Why would flogging scrap metal, or being a travel agent, or a shameless, convicted earner of ill-gotten gains or even a chicken farmer give you any insight into how to run a sports club?
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Slight change of subject, 1975 to 1982 were (mostly) glorious years, yet we had buffoons in charge then.
Bendall was absolutely hopeless, but what times the club had then.
Most directors are/were fucking useless. Just on occaision they'd stumble upon a genius manager to make them look good.
A good example was Sam Longston at Derby, a complete arse but he had Clough there to give him the best team in the country.
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Slight change of subject, 1975 to 1982 were (mostly) glorious years, yet we had buffoons in charge then.
Bendall was absolutely hopeless, but what times the club had then.
Most directors are/were fucking useless. Just on occaision they'd stumble upon a genius manager to make them look good.
A good example was Sam Longston at Derby, a complete arse but he had Clough there to give him the best team in the country.
That was exactly the example I had in mind.
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Hmmm, a fool and his money or just a fool? Frying pan or fire? I'd rather have neither, but of the two I'd go for Lerner, just, simply because at least he put some money in and is (or rather was) well meaning and not in it for the ego trip. Just a shame he seems utterly clueless about both football and business, and has a tendency to lurch from one extreme approach to the polar opposite. He seems oblivious to the fairly obvious fact that a blend of youth and experience is the best option, and that there needs to be a transition period between his "throw money at it" period and his new youth centred policy.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
Absolutely , what a very good read that was !
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An interesting in depth read for those on the outside looking in. The only thing i'd take issue with is when he says that there are big earners without relegation clauses. He dose'nt know that for sure. Players have all sorts of clauses put in nowadays.
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An interesting in depth read for those on the outside looking in. The only thing i'd take issue with is when he says that there are big earners without relegation clauses. He dose'nt know that for sure. Players have all sorts of clauses put in nowadays.
I wouldn't hold your breath.Remember we ended up paying Jenas's wages for a season
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I'm sure this has been commented before. Lerner is (was) a very good owner and we found his hands off actions speak louder than words a refreshing change from Mr Bicycle Kick himself. That and he backed MON with big money - somewhat naievely.
That said Doug was a good chairman just not a particularly good owner for us at the time football was reinvented 20 years ago.
Lerner just.
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Its amazing the change in overall opinion on this site regarding DoFs over the last 2 years or so.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
I have to agree, and furthermore I can't believe people can't see it for what it is.
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Randy was doomed to fail from Day 1.
In hindsight he should have appointed someone with football market knowledge to the board to advise him given his lack of knowledge. He did not because O'Ego would have not stood for it. So he lets him run wild with wages,transfer fees, agents fees etc in the hope we would qualify for the CL to bankroll the spend.
They day we lost at home to Stoke and missed out on CL to Arsenal was the day the financial meltdown started. Combine that with paying off contracts to all the failed managers since means we are broke, and having to sign cheaper young unproven players as a result.
We will most likely be relgated, and the better players still here will leave relatively cheaply in the summer (Benteke, Vlaar, Guzan etc)
And to top it off the fat twats on the bench on huge wages will stay and continue to pick up huge wages as nobody else will pay the wages they want.
What a disaster.
:-[
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
That may well all be true, but at the least he's done a little research. It still manages more insight into the reasons why we are where we are, than 99% of the lazy tosh and outright fiction normally printed by newspapers, even the quality ones, never mind the Mirror.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
I have to agree, and furthermore I can't believe people can't see it for what it is.
Ultimately, as with the Guardian (I think it was them) article that summed up Alex Mcleish's time as manager so well last year, I like the piece because it is concise. I don't think anybody is claiming there is some terrific insight here that nobody else has thought of, it is just a very good summary. As for the rubbish about capitalism, I didn't pay a penny to read it so that didn't work did it?
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
That may well all be true, but at the least he's done a little research. It still manages more insight into the reasons why we are where we are, than 99% of the lazy tosh and outright fiction normally printed by newspapers, even the quality ones, never mind the Mirror.
i agree with villadroid, what a load of lazy arsed journalism that will have the doom mongers creaming themselves. yes most of it is true, yes we are in the shit, put to have the perceptiveness of a miror(worst paper going) article in black and white, will possibly make the football world sit up and take notice.
droid is right, pick any topic from 30 on here, villatalk etc, sit down and read it and than come up with a genius piece like that, well he must be up there for journalist of the year!
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The article is written for the mirror readers and not targeted for h&v readers , we may be aware of the problems at our club but i think fans of other clubs will find it a good read and interesting.
One of the better articles ive read regarding villa in recent weeks.
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GT is rightly held in high regard by most Villa fans -particularly those who recall both stints at the club.
But he advocated the appointment of Houllier post MON walk out, so he's far from infallable.
Personally - and I said this before the appointment of Lambert- I'd prefer a low profile technical director, similar to what the Olybiyun have at present. Someone who co-ordinates transfers and buying policy in general.
They've had Di Matteo, Hodgson, and now Clark pass through the club in just under two years. Three managers in that space of time would be problematic for many clubs, but they don't seem to be any the worse for it.
In contrast, everytime we've appointed someone they've had their own ideas about transfers, staff, and so forth. And the whole thing turns to shite when they leave.
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GT is rightly held in high regard by most Villa fans -particularly those who recall both stints at the club.
But he advocated the appointment of Houllier post MON walk out, so he's far from infallable.
Personally - and I said this before the appointment of Lambert- I'd prefer a low profile technical director, similar to what the Olybiyun have at present. Someone who co-ordinates transfers and buying policy in general.
They've had Di Matteo, Hodgson, and now Clark pass through the club in just under two years. Three managers in that space of time would be problematic for many clubs, but they don't seem to be any the worse for it.
In contrast, everytime we've appointed someone they've had their own ideas about transfers, staff, and so forth. And the whole thing turns to shite when they leave.
Spurs seem to have done well out of this set up as well
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i agree with villadroid, what a load of lazy arsed journalism that will have the doom mongers creaming themselves.
Nonsense. As you've said yourself even the most optimistic fan would admit Villa have problems, and as has also been said this article was written with neutrals in mind. As for "Doom mongers" the article suggests what could be done to improve things, which is hardly saying Villa are going down the pan and nothing can save us.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
I have to agree, and furthermore I can't believe people can't see it for what it is.
Indeed, I just thought it was stating the bleedin' obvious. Plus this thing about Stride "saying no" to managers. That isn't true is it? Everything I've read about Stride points to him being a great admin guy, the sort to make sure contracts are watertight and that you'd don't play a youth player who's been out on loan in the FA Cup, that sort of thing. I can't imagine him getting in the way of pople like Atkinson and Ellis when discussions about transfers and budgets were being had. I can see him passing on Ellis's decisions, but not making them himself, I just don't think Ellis would have allowed it.
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GT is rightly held in high regard by most Villa fans -particularly those who recall both stints at the club.
But he advocated the appointment of Houllier post MON walk out, so he's far from infallable.
Personally - and I said this before the appointment of Lambert- I'd prefer a low profile technical director, similar to what the Olybiyun have at present. Someone who co-ordinates transfers and buying policy in general.
They've had Di Matteo, Hodgson, and now Clark pass through the club in just under two years. Three managers in that space of time would be problematic for many clubs, but they don't seem to be any the worse for it.
In contrast, everytime we've appointed someone they've had their own ideas about transfers, staff, and so forth. And the whole thing turns to shite when they leave.
Good post. We appear, more than most, to lack any continuity between changes.
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Indeed, I just thought it was stating the bleedin' obvious.
To people on this site agreed, but to Daily Mirror readers?
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Indeed, I just thought it was stating the bleedin' obvious.
To people on this site agreed, but to Daily Mirror readers?
It was probably a bit complicated for them.
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Indeed, I just thought it was stating the bleedin' obvious.
To people on this site agreed, but to Daily Mirror readers?
Put it this way, I doubt Oliver Holt would have written that piece.
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Excellent piece here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/aston-villa-why-randy-lerner-must-1535072
The article proves how easy it is to be a football writer these days.
They read the forums, collect the recurring opinions and assemble into an article.
The fans read their own opinions being repeated back to them, decide what fantastic insight the journalist has, and decide the guy's a genius.
The suggestion that Villa should get Graham Taylor in as DOF has been mentioned on quite a few Villa sites recently.
So just the capitalist Mirror confiscating the surplus value of the workers and selling it back to them, as usual.
I have to agree, and furthermore I can't believe people can't see it for what it is.
As for the rubbish about capitalism, I didn't pay a penny to read it so that didn't work did it?
It does if you understand how it works.
Everyone who writes a blog or contributes to a forum makes themselves a commodity.
If enough readers read the free content supplied by a contributor, advertisers will pay money to be exposed to that audience.
Every owner of a site will use the analytics (statistics on visits and clicks etc) to set the level of how much they can charge for advertising and make money from other people's work.
So there we have the work of other people used to make money for those who did not produce it and only own the means of production - the website.
Take the example of the Huffington Post - the material was provided entirely free by bloggers and it was sold for $315m.
So the fact that you don't pay for content does not mean no one is being exploited, or that no one is confiscating the surplus value produced by someone else.
Sounds like capitalism to me.
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Journalist writes a load of shit about our troubles = Wah...... they don't know what is going on in our club
Journalist write an article that sums up mist Villa fans views = Wah..... they just copied stuff from the forums and state the obvious
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Journalist writes a load of shit about our troubles = Wah...... they don't know what is going on in our club
Journalist write an article that sums up mist Villa fans views = Wah..... they just copied stuff from the forums and state the obvious
Confucius he say:
When the question is journalism the answer is always Wah!
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So there we have the work of other people used to make money for those who did not produce it and only own the means of production - the website.
Take the example of the Huffington Post - the material was provided entirely free by bloggers and it was sold for $315m.
So the fact that you don't pay for content does not mean no one is being exploited, or that no one is confiscating the surplus value produced by someone else.
Sounds like capitalism to me.
Right, so advertisers and the funders of the website have been exploited, and the sweat and blood of the web developers spills in into the drains of the Daily Mirror offices. Sweat and blood that could have been expended reporting on Katy Price's new shagpiece.
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Indeed, I just thought it was stating the bleedin' obvious.
To people on this site agreed, but to Daily Mirror readers?
It's just giving people what they want to see.
You get it so often with football journalism, particularly at the populist end of the market. The reader agrees with the writer and says it's a well written article, if he disagrees it's ill thought out and poorly constructed.
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You get it so often with football journalism, particularly at the populist end of the market. The reader agrees with the writer and says it's a well written article, if he disagrees it's ill thought out and poorly constructed.
That doesn't just apply to football does it? In fact, what would that not apply to?
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So there we have the work of other people used to make money for those who did not produce it and only own the means of production - the website.
Take the example of the Huffington Post - the material was provided entirely free by bloggers and it was sold for $315m.
So the fact that you don't pay for content does not mean no one is being exploited, or that no one is confiscating the surplus value produced by someone else.
Sounds like capitalism to me.
Right, so advertisers and the funders of the website have been exploited, and the sweat and blood of the web developers spills in into the drains of the Daily Mirror offices. Sweat and blood that could have been expended reporting on Katy Price's new shagpiece.
No.
Without content the website has nothing to attract readers and without readers there are no advertisers and without advertisers there is no money to pay the web developers or to pay those who provide the servers.
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The general football fan isn't going to be logging into our forums to learn about what's happening at Villa so for that reason I thought it was a good piece that moved beyond the usual, lazy narrative.
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The general football fan isn't going to be logging into our forums to learn about what's happening at Villa so for that reason I thought it was a good piece that moved beyond the usual, lazy narrative.
Indeed.
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So there we have the work of other people used to make money for those who did not produce it and only own the means of production - the website.
Take the example of the Huffington Post - the material was provided entirely free by bloggers and it was sold for $315m.
So the fact that you don't pay for content does not mean no one is being exploited, or that no one is confiscating the surplus value produced by someone else.
Sounds like capitalism to me.
Right, so advertisers and the funders of the website have been exploited, and the sweat and blood of the web developers spills in into the drains of the Daily Mirror offices. Sweat and blood that could have been expended reporting on Katy Price's new shagpiece.
No.
Without content the website has nothing to attract readers and without readers there are no advertisers and without advertisers there is no money to pay the web developers or to pay those who provide the servers.
I'm not quite sure what you inferred from my sarcasm, but you read something I didn't mean to imply. I will refrain from further comment.
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You get it so often with football journalism, particularly at the populist end of the market. The reader agrees with the writer and says it's a well written article, if he disagrees it's ill thought out and poorly constructed.
That doesn't just apply to football does it?
Of course not, but that doesn't alter the argument.
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When journo's started picking up the story that McLeish was sacked because he was poor at his job and not because we just disliked where he come from, we almost to a person sighed a sigh of relief that at last they understood. There was vindication for our annoyance and dislike of Mcleish. Now, The Mirror has done a piece that makes us think, 'thank-feck you understand' and yet there is still a quibble of who is saying it and whether them being capitalists nullifies the point which is spot on.
Or, maybe not spot on. But I think it is.
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When journo's started picking up the story that McLeish was sacked because he was poor at his job and not because we just disliked where he come from, we almost to a person sighed a sigh of relief that at last they understood. There was vindication for our annoyance and dislike of Mcleish. Now, The Mirror has done a piece that makes us think, 'thank-feck you understand' and yet there is still a quibble of who is saying it and whether them being capitalists nullifies the point which is spot on.
Or, maybe not spot on. But I think it is.
So do I.
Concerning the media's take on our reaction to TSM when he joined us, I was thinking in an idle moment (a fairly frequent occurrence these days) if he had been a decent manager, surely we would have all been delighted to have him as it would have meant that we had got one over on our greatest rivals. The fact that he got the reaction he did could only have meant one thing. That he was not a decent manager and yet the media missed that for a whole season. Journalists can be so thick. (Damon excepted of course)
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Doug loves the Villa, he is Villa through and through, yes we berated him for saying no to glory signings, we give him stick for the best part of twenty five years for being our chairman and showing little ambition in our eyes on the Holte BUT all our teams with the exception of our relegation team were better equipped, stronger, more disciplined and more credible than the poor lads we see running around the pitch like headless chickens without a leader every matchday right now.
Yes Liverpool was a good result (lucky for us Liverpool were off form that day), we beat Man City away because they hadnt done thier homework, Man U was a great performance until they sussed us out, Arsenal was a result but Chelsea, Spurs, Wigan and Bradford found us out big time with Southampton bossing us about on Saturday.
The Capitol One Cup is a mere distraction we look like throwing away.
I can't remember it being this desperate, even McLeish's team were better than this and they were complete tripe.
We can't blame the players they just aren't premier league players (yet, but one day some of them will be), we can't blame the manager and we are stuck with Lerner so prepare for the Championship so we can play the kids and let them learn how to play gritty hard football like a battle hardened team. When we come back up (eventually) then maybe, just maybe we will have a Premier league set of players once again.
Alternatively Randy, break the bank and keep us up by buying the experience we need to survive, only problem is - who in thier right mind would come and play for us who is already at the top of thier game in the Premier League, La Liga, Bundesleague, Series A. I cant think of anyone, I await to be surprised.
If Bradford get an away goal then at least we can concentrate on the league!!!! :-\
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Doug loves the Villa, he is Villa through and through, yes we berated him for saying no to glory signings, we give him stick for the best part of twenty five years for being our chairman and showing little ambition in our eyes on the Holte BUT all our teams with the exception of our relegation team were better equipped, stronger, more disciplined and more credible than the poor lads we see running around the pitch like headless chickens without a leader every matchday right now.
Yes Liverpool was a good result (lucky for us Liverpool were off form that day), we beat Man City away because they hadnt done thier homework, Man U was a great performance until they sussed us out, Arsenal was a result but Chelsea, Spurs, Wigan and Bradford found us out big time with Southampton bossing us about on Saturday.
The Capitol One Cup is a mere distraction we look like throwing away.
I can't remember it being this desperate, even McLeish's team were better than this and they were complete tripe.
We can't blame the players they just aren't premier league players (yet, but one day some of them will be), we can't blame the manager and we are stuck with Lerner so prepare for the Championship so we can play the kids and let them learn how to play gritty hard football like a battle hardened team. When we come back up (eventually) then maybe, just maybe we will have a Premier league set of players once again.
Alternatively Randy, break the bank and keep us up by buying the experience we need to survive, only problem is - who in thier right mind would come and play for us who is already at the top of thier game in the Premier League, La Liga, Bundesleague, Series A. I cant think of anyone, I await to be surprised.
If Bradford get an away goal then at least we can concentrate on the league!!!! :-\
Welcome zakk - good opening post.
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Doug loves the Villa, he is Villa through and through...
I can't remember it being this desperate, even McLeish's team were better than this and they were complete tripe.
Randy, break the bank and keep us up by buying the experience we need to survive,
If Bradford get an away goal then at least we can concentrate on the league!!!! :-\
Welcome Zakk
Doug was Villa thru and thru - except of course when he was Blues thru and thru. But one thing is sure - Doug was always Doug's best interests thru and thru.
We may have gangling fawns as defenders but our good results and performances have been anything but lucky - not once during an entire season under TSM did I see football played as well as we have at times this season.
As for Randy breaking the bank - I think Martin already did that - then tried to glue it back together so no-one would notice - but they did. I still can't believe that some folk think Lerner is tight - or is somehow holding the club back.
We are where we are.
We have to believe that Lambert will sort them out and start getting more good performances out of them than the bad ones.
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[quote sonlyme]
As for Randy breaking the bank - I think Martin already did that - then tried to glue it back together so no-one would notice - but they did. I still can't believe that some folk think Lerner is tight - or is somehow holding the club back.
We are where we are.
We have to believe that Lambert will sort them out and start getting more good performances out of them than the bad ones.
[/quote]
I think people worry Lerner is incompetent and uninterested rather than tight.
We recognise spending couldn't continue in the same uncontrolled way. But let's be clear here, it's a near suicidal policy to rely on Lambert sorting this out without better players.
Penny wise and pound foolish springs to mind.
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Neither of them...
I will say both Mr Ellis and Mr Lerner had/has the club interests at heart but they both failed in different ways to make sure Aston Villa F.C is the best it can be...
We need strong leadership with a vision not jumping from one extreme to the other and investing at the right time..
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There's good and bad in both, but i suppose that goes for every chairman/owner.
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Shame we can't combined the best of both into one. I hope Randy Lerner keep in touch with Doug Ellis to see what is happening with the club.
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Shame we can't combined the best of both into one. I hope Randy Lerner keep in touch with Doug Ellis to see what is happening with the club.
Perhaps Lerner can get him to check all the expense claims like he used to, just in case the guys are claiming for sandwiches again whilst on club business.
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Shame we can't combined the best of both into one. I hope Randy Lerner keep in touch with Doug Ellis to see what is happening with the club.
He must get sick of hearing Doug's favourite saying: 'this would never have happened in my day.'
Comes with the territory, I'm afraid!
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Ok its my turn to stick my head above the parapet and put up a piece that I wrote, for the same site which curiousorange writes on. I've pasted the start on here, feel free to read the rest here (http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/17-01-2013/has-lerner-lost-interest-in-villa/812182) or not, I promise its not all full of victorian literature references.
"Even as an eternal footballing optimist the situation Villa find themselves in grows seemingly more ominous day on day, with every rival transfer and rumour of internal trouble further twisting the knife.
Us early disciples of Lambert's project are beginning to resemble a Haversham-esque caricature, wailing 'Anfield, Anfield' with crazed eyes fixed on clocks stopped at around 4.06, when Benteke got the third. Unfortunately those great expectations are a distant fragile memory, long forgotten to be replaced by hard times.
Read more: on the site (http://pickourteam.com/premierleague/news/17-01-2013/has-lerner-lost-interest-in-villa/812182#ixzz2IHLGWII5).
I know some people see it as a bit of an affront that we try to link to our own site, but neither of us profit in any way and if you like reading (on the whole) quality football writing from a host of different clubs, from people far better at it than me, then its worth a browse.
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Cheers Sean - I enjoyed that - it's a legitimate question.
The answer will come in the next two weeks.
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Says it all really and quite damming of the current Chairman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/jan/18/aston-villa-decline-finances-randy-lerner)
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Says it all really and quite damming of the current Chairman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/jan/18/aston-villa-decline-finances-randy-lerner)
I'm surprised Lerner had not had any vocal fan abuse during matches yet!
How long until chants of 'we want Lerner out' start?
The lack of leadership is astounding. No communication with us at all and just seems distant, not interested in everything he does. He needs to shit or get off the pot. If he won't/can't finance us so were not relegation fodder then put the club up for sale!!
For someone that is meant to 'care' about the club, he surely has a funny way of showing it. Currently sitting in the background 3 thousand miles away and watching us plummet closer and closer to the championship.
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Hard to balance the calls to spend more money with the idea of running Villa responsibly. I watch the transfer list every day as well, and wait for the signing that makes me happy...but a lot of you speak too much from the heart and not the head.
A year old http://swissramble.blogspot.ca/2012/03/aston-villa-prophets-and-losses.html (http://swissramble.blogspot.ca/2012/03/aston-villa-prophets-and-losses.html) but you dont recover all that in one year.
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Randy has spent £200M which is to be commended, but...he did not spend it wisely. MON walked out on us when he spat his dummy out at having to trim our over inflated wage bill because we didnt get into the Champions League this left us in the dilema of needing a big name manager to continue the journey, we got Houllier who's health was in question from day one, he got sick (and my best wishes remain with him) and we were leaderless, we had to let him go, it cost us big money (bad decision to appoint in the first place Randy).
In the meantime MON sued Lerner for constructive dismissal and got a fortune off us, talk about kicking us when we were down Martin!!!
We got McLiesh (no one knows why) he nearly got us relegated (we all know why) and we had to sack him and then pay him big money for the priveledge (second bad mistake Randy).
Steve Stride out - Faulkener in (third big nistake Randy)
Managers want the players they want, boards then have to manage the finances and say yes or no to planned signings.
This board are inept at managing the club and thier appointed managers, Lambert has one hell of a job on his hands (if he was McLiesh then we would have sacked him by now and Nigel Adkins would be Villa's new manager come Newcastle at home) we need to keep Paul Lambert whatever happens and we need to rebuild the whole team over the next 5 years under a more modest wage structure but I wonder if Nigel will be in the dugout before February is over (Randy's fourth big mistake???).
£54 Million loss for Villa! What are we wasting our money on? Randy - I thought you were good at business - My A*se!!!
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I dont think Randy and the board have deliberately gone out to pick bad managers. Houllier had a plan, and the football was starting to alter from sit back and counter attack of MON to actually trying to play football. Health finished it early, but where might we be now if he was still at the helm. They saw something in McLeish. I met him once and thought him a real gent. He had delivered silverware to a pretty average club. True he was relegated, but I can see some of the attraction, wanting to bring youth through, and you cannot doubt for one moment that he wanted success for us. He didnt deliver, but he wanted it. Lambert, a fans choice, a huge success in bringing through lower league, cheaper players. Its not a quick fix, but in periods we have played some of our best football for four years. We need it to maintain through a period of games, granted. Look at the difference in investment in players we have seen since Lerner has taken over. Its difficult to compare as the market is bloated, but dont forget we were odds on favourites to go down before Lerner took over, so we know what the "depth" of our squad truly was. Have we blown money? Good god yes. Im not going to give you a list, because you all have your own favourites. I think his fault has been too loose with the purse strings, especially on average players early doors. We have bought most prudently this summer under him, and I think looking at the players we have brought in, have the best value for purchase/wages and if needed sell on price as we have done for well over four years. I dont mind him being quiet. If i was in charge I would be worried about the following. a) finances. How do i make/keep my club substainable. b) My manager. What does he need to make things happen. c)fans. How do I make the team play the football that will fill the stadiums (remember after the original MON love in, his last season in charge we saw gates fall, despite finishing 6th and a final and semi final, and there were plenty of complaints about the style of football we played then, something was wrong. If I could get the abc right, I honestly couldnt give two shiny shits about what anyone else thought of me
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Randy has spent £200M which is to be commended, but...he did not spend it wisely.
It's like that scene at the end of Indiana Jones and the last Crusade, except Randy just can't get the cup that belonged to the Carpenter's son.
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In the "making the money available" stakes, Randy has done pretty well.
In the "making sure it gets used properly", he has been a disaster.
Compare the way clubs like, say, Spurs and Everton invest their money and treat their squad as a valuable asset, which they manage from one year to the next, and we look an absolute fucking shambles by comparison. Those clubs also usually sell their best players, but they make sure they spend the money wisely. Their squads are assets which are managed over a longer period of time, added to as necessary, tweaked where needed, and they have some degree of stability (not to mention success).
Now look at how much money we wasted on players like Reo-Coker or Heskey, or Beye - players who were of highly dubious utility, and who walked away at the end of their contracts.
Heskey was said to be on 65k a week. We paid £3.5m for him. Rough calculation:
65,000 x 4 x 12 = £3,120,000
times 3.5 years = £10,920,000 - and that is an underestimate, as you'd need to add employers NI contribs, bonuses, and signing on fees to that.
Throw on the 3.5m fee, and Heskey cost us the best part of £15 million.
I appreciate that it is the manager who signs players like that, and O'Neill had a terribly myopic, short term, "throw enough money at it, enough of them will work out" approach to signing players, but ultimately it was Lerner's job to see the bigger picture.
He ignored it for far too long with O'Neill, realised he'd have to give Houllier even more money (and you have to ask how much will Jean Makoun cost by the end of his contract - how many of us actually remember he plays for us?), and then went totally the other way by reeling it in far, far too quickly.
I read a tweet from a journo last week saying that Villa's problem was that they'd gone from "A" (paying players 60k a week) to "C" (paying them 15k a week) without stopping off at "B". That struck me as spot on.
Lerner is far from the only one culpable here, but ultimately, he's the one running the business. If you look at either the accounts or the league table - or both - it's pretty hard to say he's been anything other than a disaster in that sense.
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I've said it before, I'll say it again .. bang on PW.
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Digging through some old papers last night, I came across the AGM notice that was issued after the Poison Dwarf was appointed. Very interesting document. What a pity we don't get them anymore.
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Digging through some old papers last night, I came across the AGM notice that was issued after the Poison Dwarf was appointed. Very interesting document. What a pity we don't get them anymore.
Indeed. We might all have had a trip to Cleveland thrown in
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Those AGMs were like a night at the London Palladium.
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Digging through some old papers last night, I came across the AGM notice that was issued after the Poison Dwarf was appointed. Very interesting document. What a pity we don't get them anymore.
Indeed. We might all have had a trip to Cleveland thrown in
Well, to the trustees' office in Delaware maybe!
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Digging through some old papers last night, I came across the AGM notice that was issued after the Poison Dwarf was appointed. Very interesting document. What a pity we don't get them anymore.
Indeed. We might all have had a trip to Cleveland thrown in
Well, to the trustees' office in Delaware maybe!
Indeed.
Rome is burning, whilst the "Cleveland Nero" fiddles in front of his live feed.
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Anyone still believe the Invisible man is anything other than a walking disaster? It's a good job his dad made the families fortune, if it was left to this prick they'd all have been eating cold soup huddled together as Randy explains how he spent all their money on magic beans.