Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: spud1950 on September 14, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
-
The Holte pub is to close only to open on matchdays .Also the staff resturant is to close .Resulting in several long term staff losing there jobs .Plus there is more to come
-
How depressing
-
How depressing
Quite.
-
The shift in the approach to the club is really depressing.
Randy appeared to start off with a grand plan to make us huge - less than 5 years later it appears the strategy is to keep us ticking along on the bare minimum.
It all feels a bit cheap. Like what them lot down the road would do.
-
The shift in the approach to the club is really depressing.
Randy appeared to start off with a grand plan to make us huge - less than 5 years later it appears the strategy is to keep us ticking along on the bare minimum.
It all feels a bit cheap. Like what them lot down the road would do.
Not quite, but it's getting a bit 'Ellis like' .
-
So very sad
-
Use it or lose it.
For reasons of geography, I'd never consider going there other than on match day (not that I do then, mind). I'd be interested to know how many on here regularly eat and drink there at other times.
-
Just a shame that one weeks salary of some of our players would pay a full years wages for a few of the staff loosing jobs.
It's about time the players (not just ours) took a long hard look at themselves and there wage structure and gave themselves a reality check.
-
Use it or lose it.
For reasons of geography, I'd never consider going there other than on match day (not that I do then, mind). I'd be interested to know how many on here regularly eat and drink there at other times.
You're right of course but if they were going to make it work there had to be some other reason to go to the Villa on non-match days. The museum idea has been suggested for years/decades but nothing has come of it. The pub is not really the sort of place the locals would use so you have to try to get outsiders in to it. Short-term it's probably the right thing to do but it is a shame and just demonstrates the shift in strategy around the club.
-
Just a shame that one weeks salary of some of our players would pay a full years wages for a few of the staff loosing jobs.
It's about time the players (not just ours) took a long hard look at themselves and there wage structure and gave themselves a reality check.
Would you if you were in their position? Revolution is not going to come from the players. It's either got to come from the authorities (ie mandatory wage-caps NFL-style) or Sky-subscribers (who put the money in to the system in the first place). Sadly I can't see either doing anything about it.
-
He ha a 5 year plan but it hasn't gone to plan.
Thinking about it what's the Point, we are not a big club if you think about it. We have not got the support to be able to compete with the likes of even Spurs.
Randy must have realised this and thought better of pumping millions millions into a club where a quarter of it's support decide not to bother unless everything's rosie.
He has done loads for Aston Villa yet as soon as he decides we need to go down a more sustainable route he gets stick and thousands of fans disappear.
-
The only way football finances will ever normalise is if a LOT of clubs go bankrupt. And I mean a lot.
As for the jobs losses, while very sad for those concerned, Randy can't be expected to just throw money at areas of the business that aren't performing, for whatever reason.
-
Lets face it pretty much everything is vanishing up its own dusthole at the moment, why should Villa be any differant.
I think RL is probably going through a period of consolidation, get the next couple of seasons out the way and go from there, for all we know he may be looking for new owners so see's no point in any future investments at this point
-
When it opened, they ran a ridiculous season ticket lottery scheme for matchdays, then in subsequent seasons allowed only season ticket holders who even had to pay to get in. Why didn't they let more people in from the off to build up a customer base, thus encouraging them to come back and telling their friends and family that it might be a nice place to have a Sunday lunch or a midweek meal? The place always looks as if it's closed, even on a matchday.
-
When it opened, they ran a ridiculous season ticket lottery scheme for matchdays, then in subsequent seasons allowed only season ticket holders who even had to pay to get in. Why didn't they let more people in from the off to build up a customer base, thus encouraging them to come back and telling their friends and family that it might be a nice place to have a Sunday lunch or a midweek meal? The place always looks as if it's closed, even on a matchday.
Well said.
-
On reading the thread title I was hoping that Messrs Beye and Heskey had been relieved of their duties.
-
On reading the thread title I was hoping that Messrs Beye and Heskey had been relieved of their duties.
I'd be more worried about Dunney leaving now the staff kitchen's closing!
-
That pub was never ever going to be a success, so I'm surprised people are so surprised it's closing. It's just in the wrong place.
-
My thoughts are with the unfortunate people who have lost their jobs.
It's quite depressing when you see players with ridiculous wages from their gold plated contracts milking the club dry for little return when ordinary people whose yearly salaries could probably be covered by a few weeks of Habib Beye are losing their jobs.
-
Most of the catering staff .Have contracts of zero hours .They are used when needed .Lack of functions and meetings means for months some have been doing 5 or 6 hours a week if lucky But the managment side keeps growing .With more and more family members
-
That pub was never ever going to be a success, so I'm surprised people are so surprised it's closing. It's just in the wrong place.
I would'nt say the pub is in the wrong place, but it dose'nt really need to open all week. I do hope those who have lost their jobs find new work soon.
-
Most of the catering staff .Have contracts of zero hours .They are used when needed .Lack of functions and meetings means for months some have been doing 5 or 6 hours a week if lucky But the managment side keeps growing .With more and more family members
Management side of what?
-
That pub was never ever going to be a success, so I'm surprised people are so surprised it's closing. It's just in the wrong place.
Quite agree. The refurbishment was a wonderful idea, and very well carried out, but ultimately it's a vanity project. There isn't (and wasn't) ever going to be enough trade to cover operating costs...location, location, location. I think it would have been easy to predict this flaw with just a tiny bit of market research before starting out.
-
Kind of symbolic, really, of the way things are going.
-
Most of the catering staff .Have contracts of zero hours .They are used when needed .Lack of functions and meetings means for months some have been doing 5 or 6 hours a week if lucky But the managment side keeps growing .With more and more family members
For example?
-
The catering side
-
Kind of symbolic, really, of the way things are going.
Absolutely. There's very much a Doug-esque feeling of the club once again "cutting it's cloth..." In fact everything that is happening reminds me of the early post-Gregory years.....i.e. after he signed a large number of players for huge fees and gave them all big contracts....sound familiar?
-
That pub was never ever going to be a success, so I'm surprised people are so surprised it's closing. It's just in the wrong place.
Quite agree. The refurbishment was a wonderful idea, and very well carried out, but ultimately it's a vanity project. There isn't (and wasn't) ever going to be enough trade to cover operating costs...location, location, location. I think it would have been easy to predict this flaw with just a tiny bit of market research before starting out.
Couldn`t agree more, unless you live on the doorstep its not a place that springs to mind when you want a midweek or sunday lunch/drink
-
When it opened, they ran a ridiculous season ticket lottery scheme for matchdays, then in subsequent seasons allowed only season ticket holders who even had to pay to get in. Why didn't they let more people in from the off to build up a customer base, thus encouraging them to come back and telling their friends and family that it might be a nice place to have a Sunday lunch or a midweek meal? The place always looks as if it's closed, even on a matchday.
When it opened there was a lot of police 'advice' for matchday opening.
-
It's a shame, it's a really nice place to have a drink. They let people in for nothing before the Hereford game and they maybe should try that more often.
-
Bet day in day out its empty therefore your paying staff for nothing. Makes sense but it all seems to be about cutting costs of late.
-
We'll be considering selling the infamous Serpentine Land next to help fund the NZogbia transfer.
-
When it opened, they ran a ridiculous season ticket lottery scheme for matchdays, then in subsequent seasons allowed only season ticket holders who even had to pay to get in. Why didn't they let more people in from the off to build up a customer base, thus encouraging them to come back and telling their friends and family that it might be a nice place to have a Sunday lunch or a midweek meal? The place always looks as if it's closed, even on a matchday.
When it opened there was a lot of police 'advice' for matchday opening.
I never understood how it seemed to be the only pub in the country where the police insisted on having the name and address of everyone attending in order for them not to object to the license.
-
Seems like bad management to me. It has all the same disadvantages as the Aston Hotel and Witton Arms, which somehow remain viable, and some advantages over those pubs which haven't been er, taken advantage of.
-
When it first opened and they had that lottery system enforced by bouncers who'd glare at you the moment you stepped through the gates, they managed to create the least inviting public house in Aston, which really takes some doing.
-
I never went there except on a match day. People just don't go to Aston for a night out. A villa pub/members club in town would be a better idea.
-
Pubs are closing left, right and centre so in itself it isn't a surprise. Taken in context of other cost cutting measures it paints a depressing picture. How much of this is a Villa thing and how much is down to the the recession has hit the West Midlands?
-
There was no way it would ever have been economically viable, given the amount of money which was poured into it to get it open in the first place.
I think they knew that all along. The depressing bit is that closing it down just shows how hard the new austerity drive is hitting home - previously they were willing to carry the cost as a flag-waving exercise. Now they're not.
-
I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. With management and staffthe overheads must have been enormous.
-
I don't think the overheads of day to day running would be enormous, to be honest, certainly not for a company throwing 40k a week at habib Beye;-) The staff won't have been paid a great amount.
Profitability is a totally different thing, though.
-
I don't think the overheads of day to day running would be enormous, to be honest, certainly not for a company throwing 40k a week at habib Beye;-) The staff won't have been paid a great amount.
Profitability is a totally different thing, though.
It's all relative. It would certainly have cost more to run than the other pubs round there, and the food waste much have been enormous every day.
-
I don't think the overheads of day to day running would be enormous, to be honest, certainly not for a company throwing 40k a week at habib Beye;-) The staff won't have been paid a great amount.
Profitability is a totally different thing, though.
It's all relative. It would certainly have cost more to run than the other pubs round there, and the food waste much have been enormous every day.
True, but relative to the other costs at the club, peanuts.
The staff restaurant closing probably says more, mind. More people on the dole.
-
It's still probably a couple of thousand quid a week, which is a lot for a business of this size.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
-
When it opened, they ran a ridiculous season ticket lottery scheme for matchdays, then in subsequent seasons allowed only season ticket holders who even had to pay to get in. Why didn't they let more people in from the off to build up a customer base, thus encouraging them to come back and telling their friends and family that it might be a nice place to have a Sunday lunch or a midweek meal? The place always looks as if it's closed, even on a matchday.
Couldn't agree more. It should be free entry and first come first served on matchdays. It'd be rammed every week.
-
Matchdays aren't really the problem though, it's the rest of the week. The museum is the only viable idea and even that has it's risks, but at least with kids and schools visiting on non matchdays etc., the building is in use.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
What about television money? That's pretty big.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
That's like saying this of Tesco's: if you ignore the food they sell, it would be a small business.
-
Matchdays aren't really the problem though, it's the rest of the week. The museum is the only viable idea and even that has it's risks, but at least with kids and schools visiting on non matchdays etc., the building is in use.
I attended a conference at VP last ear and took a couple of people into the Holte fir a drink afterwards. However no promotion was done for the place so it was only local knowledge that took us here, none of the other delegates bothered.
Villa Park has the potential to be a 7 day a week operation with excellent conference and meeting facilities and they could utilise the pub more for that but don't seem interested.
-
There's sometimes more to the success of a pub than the location. A pub that is focussed on and caters for it's target market can still be successful, like any good business. Location obviously is important, but a pub like the Holte that had a complete renovation and makeover with the backing of a multi million pound football club could have got it right. After all, you wouldn't necessarily choose to travel to the Handsworth/Winson Green border for a night out, but enough people continue to do so to make the Black Eagle a success.
My point is, that they had oodles of money to spend to set it up, but the ongoing plan was shit.
Edit: Note to self - don't post when pissed.
-
My point is, that they had oodles of money to spend to set it up, but the ongoing plan was shit.
Which unfortunately, sums up perfectly just about everything that Lerner has done.
-
All departments are been forced into cuts .But are still top heavy with managment .There now seems to be a problem with the tvs in the boxes .There is no freview boxes for the digital switchover .So the boxes might have no tvs on saturday
-
It is a real sahme and I feel for the people involved. I am also really sorry that Randy no longer has the ability to fund ventures like this one which were one of his greatest PR exercises when he first came.
The question I would love to have answered is whether this and the lack of investment at trasnfer level are short term measures to get control fo the wage bill and once achieved we will beign investing aagin in a couple fo seasons, or whether it is more far-reaching, linked to Randy's own personal finacial situaiton and in reality if he can find the right people he would be happy to sell to get back some of his investment.
-
Oh thats a real shame I watched many Villa away games In their and had a couple of great Birthday parties! plus if you did the villa tour it was a nice place place to finish!
I think this is just the start of the decline it was promising when it started and im grateful for whats been done but I get the feeling learner wished he had never took it on now.
-
There's sometimes more to the success of a pub than the location. A pub that is focussed on and caters for it's target market can still be successful, like any good business. Location obviously is important, but a pub like the Holte that had a complete renovation and makeover with the backing of a multi million pound football club could have got it right. After all, you wouldn't necessarily choose to travel to the Handsworth/Winson Green border for a night out, but enough people continue to do so to make the Black Horse a success.
My point is, that they had oodles of money to spend to set it up, but the ongoing plan was shit.
I agree totally with this and would go further by saying give it or lease it to someone who knows a thing or two about making a pub successful and in a short space of time that place could be a profitable business. There's examples all over our city and others alike.
-
Oh thats a real shame I watched many Villa away games In their and had a couple of great Birthday parties! plus if you did the villa tour it was a nice place place to finish!
I think this is just the start of the decline it was promising when it started and im grateful for whats been done but I get the feeling learner wished he had never took it on now.
Lerner saw the Villa as an underachiever and thought he could turn a profit out of us by doing things better than his predecessors. Unfortunately, and for whatever reason, it's not that easy and I think he realises that now so is cutting his cloth accordingly.
In all fairness to him, he's ploughed a lot of money in to the club over the years and doesn't have a huge amount to show for it. It's just a shame it has to come to an end.
-
It is recession and bloody Manchester City's wealth ruining the game.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
That's like saying this of Tesco's: if you ignore the food they sell, it would be a small business.
Not quite. I can see the point Dave is making.
You can almost separate out Sky money in-Players wages out as a independant entity.
All Aston Villa plc does is manage and organise their appearances, and arrange for spectators to attend.
Even if you consider total turnover, this equates Aston Villa plc with at best a medium sized manufacturing company, and probably smaller than a few metal bashing factories in the Black Country.
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
That's like saying this of Tesco's: if you ignore the food they sell, it would be a small business.
Not quite. I can see the point Dave is making.
You can almost separate out Sky money in-Players wages out as a independant entity.
All Aston Villa plc does is manage and organise their appearances, and arrange for spectators to attend.
Even if you consider total turnover, this equates Aston Villa plc with at best a medium sized manufacturing company, and probably smaller than a few metal bashing factories in the Black Country.
It's a bit like saying your annual income is £225k when in reality you earned 25k and sold your house for 200, then bought another one for the same price. There's almost a case for saying footballers are separate companies and clubs just take commission on their earnings.
-
It's still probably a couple of thousand quid a week, which is a lot for a business of this size.
If you paid that couple of thousand quid a week for 100 years, you wouldn't spend as much as the board charged the club for a single year of management fees and interest charges.
As I asked when they decided to stop rewarding staff with free cup match tickets and stopped providing Lion Club chairmen with a match programme, what is going on in the minds of the board to make them believe that cutting these relatively minuscule costs is a good thing to do? The question is even more relevant when/if they result in the dismissal of long-serving club employees from the staff canteen.
-
Not surprised about the pub closing on non-match days...more surprised that it was actually open given that there would obviously be no custom there. Cant comment on the staff restaurant as I've never heard of it, dont know where it is or what its purpose is.
I would be happy to pay a couple of quid to get into the Holte pub or suite on match days, but as a non-season ticket holder I gave up trying. They've brought these problems on themselves.
-
He ha a 5 year plan but it hasn't gone to plan.
Thinking about it what's the Point, we are not a big club if you think about it. We have not got the support to be able to compete with the likes of even Spurs.
......
Yup, I guess would should let the big boys get on with the serious stuff, and accept our natural position in the order of things alongside other the minnows such as ... clicky (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/article/55599/)
At least when certain players contracts run down and we have to replace them with something cheaper we will be able to do so without sacrificing too much by way of quality.
-
All departments are been forced into cuts .But are still top heavy with managment .There now seems to be a problem with the tvs in the boxes .There is no freview boxes for the digital switchover .So the boxes might have no tvs on saturday
Now there's a surprise.
We'll be having hot Fosters in the Upper Trinity next ;)
Why do the fans have the answers when the club employs so many ( theoretically) competent people ?
-
pubs are having a rough time even if they have a good catchment area. In hindsight it was always going to be a white elephant and i don't think they thought it through really
-
How do pubs like The Adventurers do on non match days?
-
Just a shame that one weeks salary of some of our players would pay a full years wages for a few of the staff loosing jobs.
It's about time the players (not just ours) took a long hard look at themselves and there wage structure and gave themselves a reality check.
Absolutely right. How about the self-appointed twitterati like Rio Ferdinand pondering this issue? After all, he's what passes for an intellectual among footballers. Some grasp of what reality means for the rest of the nation in the current economic circumstances would be nice. You're never going to get this from the feather-bedded money grabbers at the PFA, who have clearly looked on approvingly as huge sums of money have gone into football over the Sky years and gone straight back out again to players and agents. Players recognising that their wages are ludicrous and saying so would be a good start. But then we need some regulation - salary caps, rules about reinvesting in clubs, communities and youth development and so on.
-
All departments are been forced into cuts .But are still top heavy with managment .There now seems to be a problem with the tvs in the boxes .There is no freview boxes for the digital switchover .So the boxes might have no tvs on saturday
Now there's a surprise.
We'll be having hot Fosters in the Upper Trinity next ;)
Why do the fans have the answers when the club employs so many ( theoretically) competent people ?
I refer to the 'peter principle'
Which states that "In an organisation employees rise to there own level of incompetence"
-
Not really, for a company which turns over nigh on 100 million pounds a year.
Most of which goes straight out in player wages. if you take that & transfer fees out of the equation, football clubs are not big businesses.
Agree, but that's the problem with the football business plan, isn't it? Vast amounts of money in and straight out the door again. There is nothing in the Sky contract to say that all the money they provide has got to go to players and agents. It's about time this started to be exposed at a high level for the ludicrous nonsense it is. We need a concerted effort from a number of clubs (the FA or the Premier League governing bodies have no interest in this) to say they're going to be doing things differently.
-
Absolutely wages are too high but unfortunately we as fans don't help. We recognise the problem but all look the other way when the prospect of a good signing comes along.
-
Absolutely wages are too high but unfortunately we as fans don't help. We recognise the problem but all look the other way when the prospect of a good signing comes along.
That's an interesting point. There is no doubt that there is a "want it now" culture amongst football fans and probably more generally. I was listening to TalkSport the other day and a pundit was reviewing the spurs squad saying that they weren't good enough because they lacked strength in depth, basically implying that the spurs fans should be disappointed. There was no acknowledgment of any sort of financial reality.
On the flip side, in the past transfer window there were definitely some voices saying I'd prefer us to sign no-one rather than exasperate our situation signing more players. This was a small change and a sign that us fans maybe becoming more patient.
-
Absolutely wages are too high but unfortunately we as fans don't help. We recognise the problem but all look the other way when the prospect of a good signing comes along.
That's an interesting point. There is no doubt that there is a "want it now" culture amongst football fans and probably more generally. I was listening to TalkSport the other day and a pundit was reviewing the spurs squad saying that they weren't good enough because they lacked strength in depth, basically implying that the spurs fans should be disappointed. There was no acknowledgment of any sort of financial reality.
On the flip side, in the past transfer window there were definitely some voices saying I'd prefer us to sign no-one rather than exasperate our situation signing more players. This was a small change and a sign that us fans maybe becoming more patient.
yep. considering the Greece style cuts i think most Villa fans have handled the extreme lowering of our ambitions rather well. My problem is having a billionaire running the club like a cornershop. What's the point of having a rich owner if he doesn't spend anything? You might as well have someone poorer who at least is actually there day to day.
-
Absolutely wages are too high but unfortunately we as fans don't help. We recognise the problem but all look the other way when the prospect of a good signing comes along.
Indeed, that's very true. But if a number of clubs were prepared to outline a concerted, well argued case for restraint, or just to come out publicly and say that the current system is madness and is not benefiting anyone except players and their agents, it would help to put things into context. I'm personally not jealous of Man City, for example, at all - I think their longstanding fans must feel as if their club's been hijacked, and anyone being honest would have to feel a little embarrassed about how their meteoric rise up the league has been achieved.
-
Very sad news. It's always the little guy who suffers most.
-
Absolutely wages are too high but unfortunately we as fans don't help. We recognise the problem but all look the other way when the prospect of a good signing comes along.
Indeed, that's very true. But if a number of clubs were prepared to outline a concerted, well argued case for restraint, or just to come out publicly and say that the current system is madness and is not benefiting anyone except players and their agents, it would help to put things into context. I'm personally not jealous of Man City, for example, at all - I think their longstanding fans must feel as if their club's been hijacked, and anyone being honest would have to feel a little embarrassed about how their meteoric rise up the league has been achieved.
you reckon? I don't think they care, anymore than we did when we were pushing the boat out, albiet to a lesser extent. You can go back 100 years and there was clubs spending big on transfers compared to their rivals. Only thing thats changed is the amount of noughts
-
The wages thing is just basic economics. If you give every club in the Premier League multiple millions, then as they're chasing essentially the same small pool of players, all the extra money is going to end up being spent as wages. The only possible solution is to have a salary cap.
-
AVFC and Randy Lerner are just like any other business dealing with the effects of a global recession.
Any business owner that doesn't look at their profitability and structure a feasible operational budget during these days of austerity would be foolish.
There are 3 ways to make a profit, increase prices, increase sales, and cut costs. In the current economic climate increasing prices is more likely to reduce demand for the Villa product. Similarly increasing sales will prove difficult because many season ticket holders have elected not to renew for economic or political reasons.
With a lack of revenue growth and shrinking margins the only remedy left is to cut one's costs where possible. We have seen in the last couple of years the trend at B6 towards a reduced wage bill along with a sell to buy policy as part of an effort to move towards profitability.
Reducing staff overheads to fit with our current cash flow is a necessity and it is a no brainer that the Holte would move towards a match day only opening until such times if ever that the economic climate improved to where it is viable to spend money on a potentially profitable area.
At this time it isn't viable, thus the cuts.
It wouldn't matter who owns AVFC, in this economic climate unless your club is owned by Oil Oligarchs who can squander their billions on whims and folly, you would have to make these kinds of cuts.
Any individual in these days whether they have money or not is faced with the problem of the costs of living increasing where in many cases wages are stagnant or if you lose your job, non existent. Any one fortunate enough to have any savings or spare capital lying around knows that the return on many investments is negligible and sometimes negative. Randy Lerner is no exception to this situation.
If he owned any Bank of America stock in the last couple of years you only have to check the stock prices to find that the value of those stocks has decreased considerably. We are not privy to his personal finances, but like many that amassed fortunes over the last twenty years, today's financial straits are challenging to say the least.
While it is always sad that anyone loses their jobs, these things happen and rather than rage over the Villa's ownership cost cuts, perhaps we should stop and think that it might be the smartest thing to do in the short term to ensure that we survive to see a long term.
I for one am glad that Randy owns the club. Consider for a moment what kind of club we would have if say we were owned by a lesser individual who instead of acting like a steward was completely profligate . I can't do that for more than one moment without a cold shudder down my spine.
I believe the club is in safe hands and have no desire to see a change of ownership. If you think that things are bad now don't worry, they can always be considerably worse.
In the meantime let's see Villa's fortunes on the pitch take a rapid upward movement, then we will all be happy. Well most of us at any rate ;)
-
I don't think the overheads of day to day running would be enormous, to be honest, certainly not for a company throwing 40k a week at habib Beye;-) The staff won't have been paid a great amount.
Profitability is a totally different thing, though.
It's all relative. It would certainly have cost more to run than the other pubs round there, and the food waste much have been enormous every day.
True, but relative to the other costs at the club, peanuts.
The staff restaurant closing probably says more, mind. More people on the dole.
I think Randy must have known this would be a big loss leader, there was no earthly way it was going to work bearing in mind its location and to be honest there is a large muslim population in the area, added to the fact that gun crime has a propensity to rear its head from time to time.
Therefore, he did it in my view to make a statement to the fans in a more philanthropic manner. Therefore, to take the decision to close it shows just how far back he wants to cut in a bid to make ends meet.
-
I think Randy must have known this would be a big loss leader, there was no earthly way it was going to work bearing in mind its location and to be honest there is a large muslim population in the area, added to the fact that gun crime has a propensity to rear its head from time to time.
I don't think he did. A lot of those first two or three years was based on "Build it and they'll come." But they didn't.
-
What are the disadvantages of the Witton Arms and Aston Hotel?
Me and my mate are looking for somewhere to have a couple of pints before home games that isn't as far from Aston station as the Barton Arms but that's still reasonable. I've tried the Holte Pub before but despite it being nicely done out inside, there was zero atmosphere and the beer was the same crap they sell in the concourse at half time. I was also put off by the fact that I had to pay £4 to get in even as a season ticket holder.
Are the Witton Arms etc any good?
-
I think Randy must have known this would be a big loss leader, there was no earthly way it was going to work bearing in mind its location and to be honest there is a large muslim population in the area, added to the fact that gun crime has a propensity to rear its head from time to time.
I don't think he did. A lot of those first two or three years was based on "Build it and they'll come." But they didn't.
I think that had we made the CL the season of the Moscow debacle then we would ahve moved on massively in revenue. From the moment we didn't and then the subsequent cutting of investment that has taken place we lost the chance and I fear it will never return. Don';t forget we did average over 40K that season and could proably ahve averaged a lot higher had the gound held more.
The potential is there but it takes more thna a couple of good seasons to sustain it. You need to win things and you need to prove to our fanbase that it isn't a false dawn as we have had so many of those people are far more cynical.
-
I think Randy must have known this would be a big loss leader, there was no earthly way it was going to work bearing in mind its location and to be honest there is a large muslim population in the area, added to the fact that gun crime has a propensity to rear its head from time to time.
I don't think he did. A lot of those first two or three years was based on "Build it and they'll come." But they didn't.
I think that had we made the CL the season of the Moscow debacle then we would ahve moved on massively in revenue. From the moment we didn't and then the subsequent cutting of investment that has taken place we lost the chance and I fear it will never return. Don';t forget we did average over 40K that season and could proably ahve averaged a lot higher had the gound held more.
The potential is there but it takes more thna a couple of good seasons to sustain it. You need to win things and you need to prove to our fanbase that it isn't a false dawn as we have had so many of those people are far more cynical.
I don't think the fanbase need convincing or are particularly cynical. There are 30,000 who will turn up pretty much whatever happens then another 10,000, of whom most are floating fans rather than supporters who don't know that much about the club and our history of missed opportunities.
Even when we were getting the big crowds it was on the back of cheap tickets and promotions; I think the thing they really expected was or the commercial income to grow and it didn't.
-
I remember in one of the rare interviews Randy gave a few years ago he 'shared a vision' of growing the support for the club from the city and surrounding area. Basically, creating new fans and making the club part of the Midlands as juch as it is part of Birmingham.
Didn't really happen, did it?
-
I remember in one of the rare interviews Randy gave a few years ago he 'shared a vision' of growing the support for the club from the city and surrounding area. Basically, creating new fans and making the club part of the Midlands as juch as it is part of Birmingham.
Didn't really happen, did it?
It's been said many time before (mainly by me), but whoever can turn the many thousands of "I support the Villa" fans into "I go to the Villa" supporters will be a genius as it's eluded everyone else who's tried.
-
The fact is we're just not as well supported as the sky 4, Spurs etc..
-
The fact is we're just not as well supported as the sky 4, Spurs etc..
I don't accept that. Manu piss over everyone, Arsenal have grown bigger than us and Liverpool's international pull gives them the edge, Man City and Chelsea are only getting bigger gates because of their owners wealth and Spurs and Everton are of a similar size.
-
How do pubs like The Adventurers do on non match days?
I'd imagine they do very poorly but match days more than make up for it, that can only be the reason someone is spending money doing up the rat pan.
-
It is pretty sad that a city the size of Brum can't support a club with 50,000 gates.
-
I remember in one of the rare interviews Randy gave a few years ago he 'shared a vision' of growing the support for the club from the city and surrounding area. Basically, creating new fans and making the club part of the Midlands as juch as it is part of Birmingham.
Didn't really happen, did it?
It's been said many time before (mainly by me), but whoever can turn the many thousands of "I support the Villa" fans into "I go to the Villa" supporters will be a genius as it's eluded everyone else who's tried.
I think that's something that a lot of clubs could say.
-
It is pretty sad that a city the size of Brum can't support a club with 50,000 gates.
It can.
What is sad is that in the last 50/60/70 years only one person seems to have had the faintest idea as to how to go about it.
Villa has a large latent support, exactly how big no one knows. We have had some very creditable initiatives to add numbers at the gate, but has anyone at the club really tried to understand why Lerner and O'Neill could not do something that Ellis and Docherty did in '68.
Equally, 10,000 on the gate at an generous £40 game comes out at less than £8mill a year from league games.
That hasn't been the difference between the lofty ambitions we had and the mediocrity we've actually achieved.
-
I think Randy must have known this would be a big loss leader, there was no earthly way it was going to work bearing in mind its location and to be honest there is a large muslim population in the area, added to the fact that gun crime has a propensity to rear its head from time to time.
I don't think he did. A lot of those first two or three years was based on "Build it and they'll come." But they didn't.
I think that had we made the CL the season of the Moscow debacle then we would ahve moved on massively in revenue. From the moment we didn't and then the subsequent cutting of investment that has taken place we lost the chance and I fear it will never return. Don';t forget we did average over 40K that season and could proably ahve averaged a lot higher had the gound held more.
The potential is there but it takes more thna a couple of good seasons to sustain it. You need to win things and you need to prove to our fanbase that it isn't a false dawn as we have had so many of those people are far more cynical.
I don't think the fanbase need convincing or are particularly cynical. There are 30,000 who will turn up pretty much whatever happens then another 10,000, of whom most are floating fans rather than supporters who don't know that much about the club and our history of missed opportunities.
Even when we were getting the big crowds it was on the back of cheap tickets and promotions; I think the thing they really expected was or the commercial income to grow and it didn't.
Gregory was the last person to fill VP on a regular basis.
-
Very sorry to hear that anyone's lost their jobs, but I don't see why the players should feel guilty about "earning" £50k a week when others are being made redundant. It's not their fault the pub isn't making a profit.
Dunne's the only one who should feel guilty, if he was to use the Holte every time he went out on the piss there wouldn't be an issue.
-
We got our highest post war average attendance 3 seasons ago and the one after wasn't far behind.
-
It is pretty sad that a city the size of Brum can't support a club with 50,000 gates.
But we have 2 big clubs and a rathole within a very small distance, diluting the support. Newcastle is a one club town, London has a higher population and as for Manchester, despite claims to the contrary, Newton Heath draw a huge amount of support from outside the city and as for their neighbours, when they arrived on the "biggest stage" last night their fans forgot to.
-
How do pubs like The Adventurers do on non match days?
I'd imagine they do very poorly but match days more than make up for it, that can only be the reason someone is spending money doing up the rat pan.
I drove passed it earlier and it looked closed.
-
It is pretty sad that a city the size of Brum can't support a club with 50,000 gates.
I think as Brummies it takes a lot to get us excited and almost culturally we'd sooner bleat and moan than get behind something. We're so backwards at coming forward and speaking positively at what we have, yet we're almost unparalled when it comes to putting ourselves down, whatever the issue. Manchester, Liverpool and London folk seem to really talk themselves up. I've never got that impression about Midlanders in general.
-
If only it was as easy to get rid of none performing players....
-
How do pubs like The Adventurers do on non match days?
I'd imagine they do very poorly but match days more than make up for it, that can only be the reason someone is spending money doing up the rat pan.
They'll have their regulars from the local area, and don't forget that they aren't paying for any staff on any other day than a matchday, the landlord will be doing the serving.
-
I think as Brummies it takes a lot to get us excited and almost culturally we'd sooner bleat and moan than get behind something. We're so backwards at coming forward and speaking positively at what we have, yet we're almost unparalled when it comes to putting ourselves down, whatever the issue. Manchester, Liverpool and London folk seem to really talk themselves up. I've never got that impression about Midlanders in general.
Looks like you're guilty of that yourself, Toronto.
-
How do pubs like The Adventurers do on non match days?
I'd imagine they do very poorly but match days more than make up for it, that can only be the reason someone is spending money doing up the rat pan.
They'll have their regulars from the local area, and don't forget that they aren't paying for any staff on any other day than a matchday, the landlord will be doing the serving.
Not sure about that - he live in Abotts Bromley.
-
I'd imagine the upkeep costs of a building like the Adventurers, which has all the charm of a branch of B&Q, are somewhat low compared to those of the Holte Hotel.
On a wider point, the pub industry is dying on its arse and has been for a while.
The disappointing thing - well, no, actually, it's more telling than disappointing - is that three years ago they were willing to carry what is still a modest cost for the prestige of the club. Now they're not.
-
I'd imagine the upkeep costs of a building like the Adventurers, which has all the charm of a branch of B&Q, are somewhat low compared to those of the Holte Hotel.
On a wider point, the pub industry is dying on its arse and has been for a while.
The disappointing thing - well, no, actually, it's more telling than disappointing - is that three years ago they were willing to carry what is still a modest cost for the prestige of the club. Now they're not.
Is the pub industry dying on its arse though, really? Obviously living over there you're better placed to comment than I am, but on my visits to the NW to see the family, I was actually surprised at how many pubs were still open and thriving. Of course, lots have shut down, but I was impressed by how many had taken steps to increase trade, by things like tarting the pub up, or offering meals etc. I can say that most of the decent pubs in Wigan that I'd ever have considered going to are still open, and the majority of the ones that shut were crap and refused to change with the times. I can't think of many that I've seen that have shut that are a great loss to be honest.
I realise that's pretty vague, and likely to be different throughout the country, but I see it as the pub industry has been forced to adapt, and that the good pubs have largely survived.
-
All research shows that it's very much dying.
Good pubs surviving is good to see, but the industry as a whole is in decline.
-
There are still plenty of pubs open round my way.
-
To ensure this club remains competitive any part that is not making money has to be reviewed. I read a report recently where they produced a league table of wages compared to turnover for the premier league clubs. This may have improved in the last year as we have shifted most of the high earners but in 2009-10 we were up around the 80% mark, one of the highest in the league.
I think to restore this building to its former glory was a great idea, to turn it from the Bates motel into a revenue stream made commercial sense. If it now has to shut none match days because its costing too much to run so be it, it shows Randy is trying to reduce unneccessary cost so that we can still go and buy quality players.
What needs to happen is that this place packs out pre match and adds profit to the club. As a lapsed season ticket holder I never know if I am welcome to drink in here or not without having security clearance and a decent credit rating. There must be plenty of people just like me who would like to have a decent pint next to the ground on the 10 or sorties to Villa Park a season and whilst I accept there should be steps to ensure the Brummie Reds and other ferrals don't come in and trash the place, Villa fans need a decent pub that you can leave five minutes before kick off. Make it friendly, open to all Villa fans, get the beer right and get some decent staff who are polite, efficient and don't have to ask a manager to count the change from a tenner and they will come - put exclusive beer promotions and vouchers in H&V and we're all winners ;)
-
Well I'm going to try the Aston Hotel tomorrow.
Any tips?
-
If you are lucky I will get you a card for 30p a pint off at The Bartons.
-
As is usual once the pub closing debates start i have to point out (even though someone else has already said it) that good pubs are surviving. And I'm noticing now that some of the dodgier places round my way are trying different things, curry nights, live music, a real ale handpull (had a pint of Pardoes Original in a pub just down the road earlier, The New Talbot, very nice and had it not stuck a board up outside advertising it I wouldn't have gone in).
-
The problem is, Dave, the places that close tend to be pubs that suit the locals just fine. The sort of place where the same blokes go in a few nights a week and have 3 pints. You can tart them up and make them more attractive to a wider clientele but then the regulars don't like it so they've lost their boozer anyway.
-
a real ale handpull
is that a euphemism for getting wanked off by a barmaid?
-
As a lapsed season ticket holder I never know if I am welcome to drink in here or not without having security clearance and a decent credit rating. There must be plenty of people just like me who would like to have a decent pint next to the ground on the 10 or sorties to Villa Park a season and whilst I accept there should be steps to ensure the Brummie Reds and other ferrals don't come in and trash the place, Villa fans need a decent pub that you can leave five minutes before kick off. Make it friendly, open to all Villa fans, get the beer right and get some decent staff who are polite, efficient and don't have to ask a manager to count the change from a tenner and they will come - put exclusive beer promotions and vouchers in H&V and we're all winners ;)
Exactly.
With regards to pubs in general, I agree the best run and popular establishments will remain open but there are a lot struggling to stay open or closing completely. I'm seeing more and more pubs boarded up and closed for business in what has become a highly competitive market. A well known pub and restaurant local to myself closed down a few months ago and has recently reopened as a "Hungry Horse"...I havent been yet myself but they must be doing a great trade judging from the full car park during the daytime and evenings.
-
The problem is, Dave, the places that close tend to be pubs that suit the locals just fine. The sort of place where the same blokes go in a few nights a week and have 3 pints. You can tart them up and make them more attractive to a wider clientele but then the regulars don't like it so they've lost their boozer anyway.
The trouble is, a rundown back street boozer which serves one or two old blokes a night, isn't really a viable business model whichever way you look at it.
-
I know you're right, Risso, but they're important parts of communities and they're disappearing at a rate of around 40 a week.
-
Not sure if its been mentioned earlier, but with a bit of development , prehaps the Holte pub,
could be developed into a museum as its position is perfect when you approach VP.
Reading this thread really makes you think as to how my match day ritual has changed over
years;
1977- 82, Meet at the Aston Tavern, have too much lager,
1982- 2000 , Ansells Social , Perry Barr pre & post match, cheap beer & communal balti !
2000- present , Bartons, getting there too early, drinking too much & eating Thai food.
he -ho :)
-
The problem is, Dave, the places that close tend to be pubs that suit the locals just fine. The sort of place where the same blokes go in a few nights a week and have 3 pints. You can tart them up and make them more attractive to a wider clientele but then the regulars don't like it so they've lost their boozer anyway.
I agree to a point, but if the locals can't put enough money behind the bar then their pub will shut. I'll take the example of The New Talbot near me again, it hasn't changed a whole lot, same fittings, same locals. What it has is a forward looking landlord, he's done some research, put grub on that will attract the nearby factory and office workers, stuck a handpull on to pull in the odd (very odd) CAMRA Man and chose his guest well, put local bands on at the weekends....etc.
All the usual punters are still drinking there, but now it also gets enough other trade to make a profit.
Just being the local boozer isn't good enough any more.
-
the smoking ban has had a massive impact, if they had allowed pubs to make a choice then thousands of pubs would have been saved. the good news is that you can go to a pub without smelling of and breathing cigarette smoke, the bad news is that there are far fewer pubs
-
Was at a Network Villa event this morning with Paul Faulkner as the guest speaker. As well as a superb 3 course breakfast it was a great event in general.
He talked about the transfer window and how the logistics of it all worked out, players having to catch flights, getting stuck in traffic, having two hospitals set up ready for Hutton and Jenas, which took 3 hours each and the faxes finally going off around 10:40pm.
Then came around our table and spent quite some time chatting to us. Given this opportunity I thought I would ask him a couple of questions. I said that I appreciate everything that Randy has done and think he has been fantastic but I asked why he never personally speaks to the fans, either in interviews, not just in the national / local press, but could use AVTV to do so. In 6 years I've only ever heard himi speak once on central news.
Paul's reply was that Randy likes to do his talking 'on the pitch' in respect of spending the money on the club and players etc and doesn't like to court the media. I said I could understand that but a little more, even as a PR gesture to the fans wouldn't go a miss.
Some less Internet savvy fans, who don't read posts from the General (or even know who he is) really have had no feedback from him since he came, apart from the ST holder letter we had pre-season.
Also questioned why when the screen by the North stand was taken down it wasn't put back up. He said aesthetically it didn't look very good up there and that the picture quality wasn't great anyway. He mentioned that Old Trafford and Anfield don't have them and we all managed before the came in.
Valid points but I got quite used to them watching the pre-match build up and replays after goals.
But overall I though Paul came across excellently, didn't shirk any questions asked of him, very composed and you can tell he genuinely wants the best for the club. He said that some of the young kids like Johnson that he watches in the reservesre looking very bright and that he hopes Bannan and Albrighton get a long run in the side.
Also spoke to someone about the Holte pub and they said that it isso hard to predict the amount of people coming in. One day last week there were 2 people dining in there, same day the week after 46 turned up so hard to account for staff numbers etc. Match days always busy.
Nothing worthy of a H&V meltdown but hopefully gives a small insight.
-
the smoking ban has had a massive impact, if they had allowed pubs to make a choice then thousands of pubs would have been saved. the good news is that you can go to a pub without smelling of and breathing cigarette smoke, the bad news is that there are far fewer pubs
I don't think it has. Have smokers just stopped going to pubs?
Most every smoker I have spoken to has carried on drinking and the only change they have made is to maybe move to a pub with a better smokers area.
Pubs are closing because there is less money to spare and a lot of competing leisure activities for what there is, plus you can buy your beer and wine far cheaper in Asda. It's no good just being a 'local' any more.
If pubs like The Black Eagle can survive despite it being in possibly the worst location you could think of then there's hope for any landlord willing to think about doing something more than just serving Carling.
-
I don't know of a single decent pub that's closed for years, smoking ban or no. I daresay a lot of landlords have used it as an excuse and a few have had to close because they couldn't be arsed moving with the times and proving more than the basics.
-
I don't know of a single decent pub that's closed for years, smoking ban or no. I daresay a lot of landlords have used it as an excuse and a few have had to close because they couldn't be arsed moving with the times and proving more than the basics.
I think the Longbridge closure has had a huge impact round here. There just isn't the same sort of money in the local economy and all the pubs mentioned by a couple of us earlier are within a mile or two of the factory. Social clubs seem to have survived as they're a lot cheaper.
-
The fact that clever landlords can still turn pubs around and that good pubs still survive doesn't in anyway detract from the fact that - for whatever reason - it is an industry in decline.
The briefest of looks at the figures backs that up.
-
Having come out of that industry 2 years ago after 17 years in it, the reasons are as usual more than one and created a perfect storm. On average now two pubs a day are closing.
Firstly, pricing is now ridiculous, even in local pubs, this is because they pay something like 75p in every £ on duty, then there is VAT that has steadily increased. Supermarkets then added to the chaos by selling beer as a loss leader pretty much.
In addition, the profile of the nations industry has changed over the last 25 years. Years ago, local boozers would survive on blue collar shift workers finishing early on a Friday and literally in some cases spending their entire weeks wages down the pub. All those industries have pretty much vanished - Rover being a classic case in point. The smoking ban had an effect but not to a massive extent.
Also, people's cultural habits have changed over the years - people want a quality pub with decent food offerings now, so you tend to find only those sorts of pubs will survive, bar one or two exceptions to the rule as well as City Centre pubs.
Finally, the recession has had a big effect. Disposable income has dropped - taking my own example, I was a regular at a pub 3 nights per week, but since I had kids, NI went up etc, that has dropped to once a week, not by choice, just a result of less available income.
-
It was interesting to be up in Birmingham last week. Round me, and I live in a wealthy part of the world in Chichester, restaurants are now nearly always empty on weekday nights whereas a couple of years ago they would have been very busy. So it was something of a shock to be staying on Broad Street last week and to see how busy the nightlife still seems to be there (and still as noisy!) on weekdays. I went out to Bank for a meal on Wednesday night and it was heaving. I guess I was surprised given that I hear how badly Brum has been hit by recession though perhaps the conference trade at this time of year paints a gloss over that - particularly as this is the conference season. Or maybe even though I thought everywhere looked very busy, it is nowhere near as busy as it was a few years ago?
-
The amount of empty units on Broad Street indicate how bad the trade is. Other factors like 25% unemployment in the under 25's as well as the demographic changes meaning there are less of them anyway play a big part too.
-
My point is, that they had oodles of money to spend to set it up, but the ongoing plan was shit.
Which unfortunately, sums up perfectly just about everything that Lerner has done.
Martin! MARTIN! Come back, come back, you've gone over to the dark side. You're in a very bad place and you need to move in to the light.
-
But it's soooooo beautiful.......
-
Update on job losses .So far 4 people losing jobs this friday .They amount to be saved per month in staff canteen £200 pounds a month.The managment in their wisdom emailed all villa staff >Telling them about changes to be made in the canteen .Without telling them it was closing and the staff losing their jobs.It seems they are scared of mentioning the word redundancies.
-
£2,400 saved per year. Couldn't they just have moved Habib Beye on, instead?
-
Four jobs, £200 a month? That doesn't make any sense.
-
It's a shame, it's a really nice place to have a drink. They let people in for nothing before the Hereford game and they maybe should try that more often.
think there is no entrance fee anymore as i got in there before and after the newcastle match for free.
-
Sorry for misleading its 2 jobs in the staff canteen saving £200 pound a month.The holte pub dont know how much they will be saving there .Apparenly its the turn of the porters next and the acammedy staff that go round the schools etc
-
Two jobs going saving £200 a month still doesn't sound right. Is there a nought missing from the end of that figure?
-
No noughts missing .They are trying to get all catering staff on to zero hours contracts.They will be phoned when needed .What you have to realise most of the managers in the different depertments Arent very good at their jobs often spending over their budget .Result staff laid of to help claw back some over the overspend
-
Spud, is your job as a double agent safe?
-
Nobodys job is safe with this goverment
-
That's true.
-
Nobodys job is safe with this goverment
Now looking at the facts, we find that UK Unemployment at the time of the general election (May 2010) was 2.51 million. And Looking at unemployment now (September 2011), it's currently 2.51 million.
If we look back to May 2005, then 1.4 million people were unemployed.
So pay attention now Spud:
Jobs lost under the last Labour Government = 1.1 million jobs
Jobs lost under the Coalition Government = 0 jobs
-
I know of about 30 people who have lost their jobs as a direct result of the policies of this Government with many more to come in the near future so you're talking shite, Dry Sack.
-
you're talking shite, Dry Sack.
Which part of what I posted was false?
I was one of about 300 of people who lost their jobs at my last company. This was when the Labour Party was in power.
Dry Sack? Really? What line of work are you in Chris?
-
you're talking shite, Dry Sack.
Which part of what I posted was false?
I was one of about 300 of people who lost their jobs at my last company. This was when the Labour Party was in power.
Dry Sack? Really? What line of work are you in Chris?
That there have been zero job losses under the coalition, it's not true. Now, there might have been some part time and agency posts created but many, many public sector jobs have gone or will go in coming months and with growth flat lining there will be very little to replace them. That's reality rather than your attempt to use statistics to make a political point.
Dry Sack is a piss take of your user name which you asked for with your patronising "so pay attention" line.
-
I think the 3,000 odd people about to lose their jobs at BAe Systems due in no small part to government policy will take issue with you drisaac.
-
Nobodys job is safe with this goverment
Now looking at the facts, we find that UK Unemployment at the time of the general election (May 2010) was 2.51 million. And Looking at unemployment now (September 2011), it's currently 2.51 million.
If we look back to May 2005, then 1.4 million people were unemployed.
So pay attention now Spud:
Jobs lost under the last Labour Government = 1.1 million jobs
Jobs lost under the Coalition Government = 0 jobs
Has the Reverend Mooney returned?
-
Nobodys job is safe with this goverment
Now looking at the facts, we find that UK Unemployment at the time of the general election (May 2010) was 2.51 million. And Looking at unemployment now (September 2011), it's currently 2.51 million.
If we look back to May 2005, then 1.4 million people were unemployed.
So pay attention now Spud:
Jobs lost under the last Labour Government = 1.1 million jobs
Jobs lost under the Coalition Government = 0 jobs
Has the Reverend Mooney returned?
Considering his ability to play with numbers maybe he's Carsen Yeung in disguise.
-
1,020 Royal Navy Personnel to be made redundant with more to come.
You might need to look at your zero job losses you've attributed to this government drisac, you are the one that needs to pay attention to what's happening out there instead of hiding behind bullshit statistics.
-
It's sad when there are job losses, as I found out myself a couple of years ago.
I didn't "play with numbers". Look at the numbers (http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+uk+statistics) and you see that unemployment has been more or less static since about June 2009, following a big rise in 2008-2009.
This is not a political point. It is a statistical point.
"nobodys job is safe with this goverment" is just untrue.
-
1,020 Royal Navy Personnel to be made redundant with more to come.
You might need to look at your zero job losses you've attributed to this government drisac, you are the one that needs to pay attention to what's happening out there instead of hiding behind bullshit statistics.
Some jobs are destroyed, some jobs are created. Zero job losses is the net figure for the past 16 months, so for every job destroyed there must have been one created. The "bullshit statistics" you refer to come from the government and are not bullshit.
-
Benjamin Disraeli had it right when he said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".
Just thought I'd get it in before any body else. ;)
-
I think the 3,000 odd people about to lose their jobs at BAe Systems due in no small part to government policy will take issue with you drisaac.
No, it's alright, because JD Sports are expanding, and so are Waitrose, so they can all go and get minimum wage jobs flogging trainers or stacking shelves.
See, one job lost, one created = as you were.
-
It's a distortion of statistics, the overall number of people out of work does not tell the whole story as it varies greatly from region to region and sector to sector. People are being made redundant directly by this government and indirectly as a result of their policies. That's a fact.
-
1,020 Royal Navy Personnel to be made redundant with more to come.
You might need to look at your zero job losses you've attributed to this government drisac, you are the one that needs to pay attention to what's happening out there instead of hiding behind bullshit statistics.
Some jobs are destroyed, some jobs are created. Zero job losses is the net figure for the past 16 months, so for every job destroyed there must have been one created. The "bullshit statistics" you refer to come from the government and are not bullshit.
You don't need to be a statatician but just a basic level of maths will do to work out that if 1020 people lose their jobs in the public sector as a result of government policy that government's figure of "0" job losses is nothing but fucking bullshit.
This is just one case in point, there are others as have been pointed out. It's been going on for the past year and will continue to go on as a result of this government's policies.
-
They'll also count it as a 'zero job loss' if they get rid of two FT employees and then bring two in on a part time/shared hours basis.
-
When anyone who is 60 plus is laid of etc .They are not counted in the job loss etc figures .They are paid pension credits .Which is more than jsa and you dont sign on ever again .You are not forced to look or told to get a job .You cant go on any schemes to retrain etc
Unfortunatley i am one of these
-
Bad luck Spud, hope something good turns up for you soon. As for drysack, can't we just ban him? It's obvious the bloke is either a WUM or just a plain dimwit if he can't see that what he's posting is patent bollocks.
-
Spud, I hope you get a job sorted out soon too. I hope you don't have to rely on the government to find one either, as governments have never been much good at this.
Percy, I'm not a dimwit, nor am I trying to wind up anyone, I'm just disagreeing with people on a website. You (Heroes and Villains belongs to you?) can ban everyone you disagree with if you like.
The unemployment statistics (read about them here (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171766_231903.pdf)) include everyone who is 1. capable of working; 2. available for work; 3. actively seeking work; and 4. below state pension age
The claimant count (everyone receiving JSA) is currently about 1.57 million people. Other unemployed people are included in the 2.51 million figure.
The numbers and facts here are true and checkable. You can think my political views are bollocks, as much as you like. If you think that's enough reason to ban someone, then go ahead Percy.
-
It's a distortion of statistics, the overall number of people out of work does not tell the whole story as it varies greatly from region to region and sector to sector. People are being made redundant directly by this government and indirectly as a result of their policies. That's a fact.
Another way of looking at it is to say that during the course of this government just as many jobs have been created as have been lost.
And if it varies from sector to sector then that's just the way it is unfortunately. Times change and we have to move with them. I assume that you believe we should still be manufacturing codpieces, thatched rooves and penny farthings?!
-
They are jobs out there, dont believe the story the economy on its arse, its tough I should know I been made redundant twice in a career as an accountant in last 12 months but found work immediately because I network like nuts, social media now the way to find a job and secondly be flexible.
I worked in London for four weeks whilst I found a new role near home, its hard and no guarantee but it can be done.
The economy is growing in areas like technical manufacturing, cloud computing, renewable energy.
To be honest public sector needed trimming for years, regardless of political view it went too far
-
It's a distortion of statistics, the overall number of people out of work does not tell the whole story as it varies greatly from region to region and sector to sector. People are being made redundant directly by this government and indirectly as a result of their policies. That's a fact.
Another way of looking at it is to say that during the course of this government just as many jobs have been created as have been lost.
And if it varies from sector to sector then that's just the way it is unfortunately. Times change and we have to move with them. I assume that you believe we should still be manufacturing codpieces, thatched rooves and penny farthings?!
No, but building cars, for example, would be good rather than relying on the corrupt and discredited financial sector.
Just saying "that's the way it is" is pathetic. For the last 25 years or so this country has been the victim of a bizarre neo liberal experiment that has left us with an economy where large parts of the country, the old industrial heartlands, have been neglected and unemployment is endemic while other parts are relatively prosperous. This isn't a party political point, it started under Thatcher but Blair was happy to carry it on, but it's the reason that Germany has coped with the recession far better than we have. When the history of this period us studied in 50 years time they'll think we were barking mad.
-
They are jobs out there, dont believe the story the economy on its arse, its tough I should know I been made redundant twice in a career as an accountant in last 12 months but found work immediately because I network like nuts, social media now the way to find a job and secondly be flexible.
I worked in London for four weeks whilst I found a new role near home, its hard and no guarantee but it can be done.
The economy is growing in areas like technical manufacturing, cloud computing, renewable energy.
To be honest public sector needed trimming for years, regardless of political view it went too far
Richard, you're hardly typical are you? Not everyone can be a finance director. It's at the lower paid end of the spectrum where things have hit hardest. When I was growing up people could get apprenticeships in factories so we developed a skilled work force. With the closure of those plants the training and opportunities went with them.
As for the public sector cuts, those jobs aren't just people losing their livelihoods now but the job disappears for good so it's another lost opportunity for the future. The cuts will mean poorer services not the same things done more efficiently.
-
It's a distortion of statistics, the overall number of people out of work does not tell the whole story as it varies greatly from region to region and sector to sector. People are being made redundant directly by this government and indirectly as a result of their policies. That's a fact.
Another way of looking at it is to say that during the course of this government just as many jobs have been created as have been lost.
And if it varies from sector to sector then that's just the way it is unfortunately. Times change and we have to move with them. I assume that you believe we should still be manufacturing codpieces, thatched rooves and penny farthings?!
No, but building cars, for example, would be good rather than relying on the corrupt and discredited financial sector.
Just saying "that's the way it is" is pathetic. For the last 25 years or so this country has been the victim of a bizarre neo liberal experiment that has left us with an economy where large parts of the country, the old industrial heartlands, have been neglected and unemployment is endemic while other parts are relatively prosperous. This isn't a party political point, it started under Thatcher but Blair was happy to carry it on, but it's the reason that Germany has coped with the recession far better than we have. When the history of this period us studied in 50 years time they'll think we were barking mad.
But it comes down to competitive advantage. Like it or not, we're not very good at building cars people want to buy and as a result we can't compete with the likes of Germany when it comes to building cars.
Our efforts are better spent in areas where we have a competitive advantage, like financial services.
The biggest issue we have in the UK when it comes to manufacturing is the lack of natural resources. To make things we either have to buy in the raw materials or spend a fortune getting them out of the ground here. Other countries don't have that issue so it's very difficult to compete. Most of the industrial hearlands have suffered as a result of this but it's hardly in any government's interests to do something which makes life worse for the population they want to vote for them.
It's up to the government to help in creating new jobs for those people but it's also up to those people to want to retrain and do the new jobs. There's no point sitting and complaining that it was better in the old days.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
-
Even for you that's bollocks, Adam. The stupidity of the people in the financial sector is the reason we're in this mess and the crash is proof of why we are made to rely on it. It appears to be peopled by fools, crooks and charlatans.
We're perfectly good at building cars, we make plenty for other people but not so good at the business and design side.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
-
Chris thanks for the promotion I am not an FD, but anyway.
One apprenticeships are out there, I took 2 on last month at 18 .
Two - professional roles like mine are harder to come than roles on lesser salaries as there less of them, principle the same , get of your arse stop complaining and get a route back into work. I worked for Moben kitchens who collapsed two months ago, 75% within a 8 weeks now have jobs so roles are out there , even in grim north
I come from a real working class background, my dad a tool maker and retired through ill health when I was 18, in last recession of late 80's
I did not go to university and financially I could not, but got a job and found a career , went to college 2 nights a week and got qualified and worked my balls off for last 20 years, like a lot of people. I got there through work ethic and tenacity and if worked for me , it can work for anyone.
i now work a 60 hour week , like a lot of people and and graft , not as hard as guys down the mine or in car plants on night but graft.
I hit 40 got made redundant twice in 12 months and picked myself and went for it, if someone in public sector working 35 a week looses there job, do the same, social network, use linked in, relocate etc, work is out there.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
You really dont have a clue about business do you, they did that in 60's and 70's called BL and it was a fucking disaster
-
Good on you Richard, that's the spirit!
-
Longbridge would be flying now if BMW hadn't stitched them up by moving Mini production away from it's home to Cowley. Not very good at making cars? Jag, Land and Range Rover, Mini, Rolls Royce, Morgan and Aston Martin owners would beg to differ I'm sure.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
You really dont have a clue about business do you, they did that in 60's and 70's called BL and it was a fucking disaster
That's not an answer to the question I posed though. If we can help one ailing business why not another? Rover was badly run but that doesn't mean it had to be stay that way. We can build Fords, Nissans, BMWs etc so the argument that we just can't do it doesn't hold water. I understand why we had to support the banks but not why we couldn't do the same for a business that was so important to this city.
-
dont believe the story the economy on its arse
But it is.
I'm thinking of starting a football team with my new best mates down the Lewisham Job Centre.
100,000-a-side
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
You really dont have a clue about business do you, they did that in 60's and 70's called BL and it was a fucking disaster
That's not an answer to the question I posed though. If we can help one ailing business why not another? Rover was badly run but that doesn't mean it had to be stay that way. We can build Fords, Nissans, BMWs etc so the argument that we just can't do it doesn't hold water. I understand why we had to support the banks but not why we couldn't do the same for a business that was so important to this city.
We're very good at building cars in this country, but after we let foreign corporations cherry pick the desirable marques, we were left with out of date models like the Rover 45, and would have needed to basically build the brand again from scratch.
-
The problem wasn't building cars, or designing them, as we can still do both of those (look at the luxury brands we churn out still).
The problem was in the management. Look at the huge success which is Mini for a start. It took BMW to realise what a great, exploitable brand that was, and do something with it.
The management of the various British owners of the marque for decades lacked the imagination to do anything with it.
-
With respect, and as a friend of someone in Rover middle management, he earns the thick end of 100K a year and has a gold plated pensions based on years served.
The point is however that some management are shite but they go out of their way to recruit the very best managers of the future.
The two paragraphs don't gel well but both are true.
-
It's not about management being shite now (I'm sure the remaining handful are ace *wink*), it is about them being rubbish for years and missing the opportunity.
-
I worked for Moben kitchens who collapsed two months ago, 75% within a 8 weeks now have jobs so roles are out there , even in grim north
So 25%, a quarter of the workforce, are still out of work?
That doesn't sound that great to me.
-
Longbridge would be flying now if BMW hadn't stitched them up by moving Mini production away from it's home to Cowley. Not very good at making cars? Jag, Land and Range Rover, Mini, Rolls Royce, Morgan and Aston Martin owners would beg to differ I'm sure.
Add UK-made Bentley, Nissan, Toyota, McLaren, Vauxhall, Honda & Ford to that list too.
-
I worked for Moben kitchens who collapsed two months ago, 75% within a 8 weeks now have jobs so roles are out there , even in grim north
So 25%, a quarter of the workforce, are still out of work?
That doesn't sound that great to me.
That's life in a recession. As long as I've got a job there are plenty around and anyone out of work doesn't want to.
-
How many are happy with the jobs they have got .Seems someone at villa park is not happy with theirs or working conditions.Vandalisim at the club is on the rise .Toilets are being thrashed and boxes after being set up for matches with plates and glasses etc and being smashed to a pulp .Taking ages to vac the slivers of glass from the carpets
-
Chris rover had been propped up for years, it failed due to shite product , and shite management. Why should the taxpayer prop it up, I don't remember a million brummies buying the cars out of love to keep long bridge open, the city full of fords , KIA nab BMWs . Land rover, jaguar and mini flushed because of good product range, that explains why all brands are expanding.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
You really dont have a clue about business do you, they did that in 60's and 70's called BL and it was a fucking disaster
That's not an answer to the question I posed though. If we can help one ailing business why not another? Rover was badly run but that doesn't mean it had to be stay that way. We can build Fords, Nissans, BMWs etc so the argument that we just can't do it doesn't hold water. I understand why we had to support the banks but not why we couldn't do the same for a business that was so important to this city.
Because the place was run by the unions and inept management, so if you have a crap product useless management and a militant work force, who the fuck invests in that, thankfully even the government did not want to eventually. You would not need a very big room to house the people that destroyed the banks, lots of people that worked for or are working for banks lose thier jobs because of the idiotic decisions of the few.
Back to the car industry, so even when management wanted to introduce a new model , change working paterns, develop the ideas, they had to negotiate every single change with the Unions.
-
Chris government intervention or lack of it did not cause Rover to collapse , it was basically a badly run company that was going to fail.
The only economy will fully recover is new investment in new markets and people having balls to start new businesses.
The Governmet gave billions to prop up badly run banks, why couldn't they do the same for Rover?
You really dont have a clue about business do you, they did that in 60's and 70's called BL and it was a fucking disaster
That's not an answer to the question I posed though. If we can help one ailing business why not another? Rover was badly run but that doesn't mean it had to be stay that way. We can build Fords, Nissans, BMWs etc so the argument that we just can't do it doesn't hold water. I understand why we had to support the banks but not why we couldn't do the same for a business that was so important to this city.
Because the place was run by the unions and inept management, so if you have a crap product useless management and a militant work force, who the fuck invests in that, thankfully even the government did not want to eventually. You would not need a very big room to house the people that destroyed the banks, lots of people that worked for or are working for banks lose thier jobs because of the idiotic decisions of the few.
Back to the car industry, so even when management wanted to introduce a new model , change working paterns, develop the ideas, they had to negotiate every single change with the Unions.
And some people still think talking to their workforce is a bad idea.
-
Yes, unions are to blame. They don't have unions like ours in Germany. They have stronger ones.
-
Unions aren't to blame, so much as some of the jumped up dipsticks who have forgotten what the bloody thing is there for - to be the voice of the workforce and negotiate the best terms and conditions with the management, therefore developing a productive and profitable solution for all employees.
Unfortunately most of what you see from union missives is "NO" - not the best way to conduct negotiations with your employer and wage payer, this is what appeared to decimate most of the large UK industries at various stages of development.
-
The union where I work are a fucking nightmare.
-
Ditto
-
The union where I work are a fucking nightmare.
In what way? They do not look after the worker or they're interfering with the company to the detriment of all.
-
The union where I work are a fucking nightmare.
In what way? They do not look after the worker or they're interfering with the company to the detriment of all.
The latter.
-
As A ex b/l worker .The union should only be as strong as the workforce wont it to be .When i first started a b/l in the 70s and works committe people were going round selling the morning star and calling everyone brother .I soon told him to do one .Some of the stewards were more intrested what was happening in other countries .Than doing the job of representing the people who paid their dues