Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: eastie on January 13, 2011, 01:33:36 PM
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http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/james-nursey/James-Nursey-column-Revealed-The-extreme-differences-in-Aston-Villa-Gerard-Houllier-and-Martin-ONeill-methods-that-have-caused-so-many-problems-with-players-and-staff-article671399.html
By the time Martin O'Neill dramatically quit Aston Villa five days before the start of the season, he was fed up with owner Randy Lerner - and club officials felt similarly about him .
So Lerner and his key confidants such as chief executive Paul Faulkner deliberately sought out a successor who was completely different to the Irishman.
Yes, O'Neill had undoubtedly done a good job (and his reign is looking better with every new bad result under successor Gerard Houllier). Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League is admirable and Villa also reached Wembley twice last season in the two domestic cup competitions.
But Lerner wants and wanted more from and for the football club he has spent £200million on since buying Villa .
He finally wants some silverware, primarily.
The American also wants better value for money from the £100m-plus he has spent on players, as the club, whose wage bill is an unsustainable £70m, are being forced to virtually give away expensive flops such as Steve Sidwell, Nicky Shorey and Habib Beye.
Lerner wants all his players to be trained thoroughly and improved on the practice pitch.
He wants some of the club's talented youngsters, such as Marc Albrighton, to be given more chances to flourish.
And he wants an open, friendly dialogue with the man running the team after his relationship with O'Neill turned sour.
Given those reasons, I can fully understand why Lerner recruited former Liverpool manager Houllier.
Spend any time in Houllier's company and he quickly comes across as confident, urbane, intelligent and not shy to highlight his impressive CV!
I mention this as Lerner is definitely standing by his man despite a torrid start to Houllier's managerial reign amid unrest from fans.
And I think it is precisely because Houllier has such different methods to O'Neill that Villa have struggled to adapt to his regime.
Under O'Neill, rightly or wrongly, everything was geared towards the players performing on a match-day.
The squad were often given at least two days off a week and training was laid-back under John Robertson and Steve Walford, with five-a-side games taking up the majority of the time.
There was little analytical assessment of opponents, as O'Neill preferred to focus on his own side's strengths.
O'Neill did not talk to the players much at the training ground, he would save his wisdom for the dressing room, where he produced such inspirational rhetoric on a match-day that his players would be full of confidence.
So, regardless of whether his methods were more in keeping with Brian Clough's generation of players or not, they undoubtedly worked well despite O'Neill's tendency to rarely rotate his squad.
Yet since Houllier arrived in September, Villa's players are having to knuckle down under a completely different, disciplined approach.
And let's be quite clear, it has been a hell of a culture shock.
Already, Houllier has clashed with John Carew, Richard Dunne, Stephen Ireland and Beye, as reported in Mirrorsport.
The change of routine and methods has caused much grumbling at Villa's training ground as even the players' jacuzzi has been removed.
I was the first to report in October that Houllier had dramatically upped the number of days players were due in at the club .
And not only did he get French fitness coach Robert Duverne - who fell out with Patrice Evra at the World Cup - cracking the whip, but he also imposed a set of new rules that went down like a lead balloon.
Mobile phones were banned at the training ground, players were told to cut out non-football related chit-chat in training and those living miles away from the club, such as Stephen Warnock in Ormskirk in Lancashire, were asked to relocate .
Perhaps crucially, Houllier is completely different in the dressing room to his predecessor.
The 63-year-old is softly spoken these days and confirmed to the press last week that he has no plans to start throwing any tea cups.
Houllier believes his players should be motivated themselves, without him rallying them with any Churchillian speeches.
Indeed, after their Carling Cup exit at arch-rivals Birmingham, I am told Houllier basically said to the players: 'Well played. Unlucky. On to the next game'!
O'Neill, who won all six of his matches against Brum, certainly would have handled it differently.
So, all in all, life could scarcely be much more of a contrast for Villa's squad, unless perhaps Nicolas Sarkozy had come over from France instead!
And I can understand why Villa supporters are getting both worried and restless about results with the club now in the relegation zone.
Sunday's league game at arch-rivals Birmingham must be enough to fill most Villa fans with dread.
But Lerner has taken on Houllier to rebuild the club, as part of a long-term strategy, on a cheaper more sustainable model while still maintaining big ambitions.
Houllier will be backed this month with funds to offload the likes of Carew and Beye (who will need pay-offs) and bring in players such as Lyon's Jean Makoun, Blackburn's Chris Samba, Charlie Adam of Blackpool and Toulouse starlet Moussa Sissoko.
His French revolution is going to need both time and patience to yield results.
Those commodities are in short supply in football these days, but if I was a betting man I would put money on Houllier being at Villa until the summer at least.
Perhaps by then those reactionary members of Villa's squad will be bombed out and the club can progress using Lerner and Houllier's blueprint.
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Surprisingly good article that. It probably was discussed before, but does anyone else think that the drastic change in training methods and general discipline happening in mid-season, rather than in pre-season, is one of the main causes of the trouble?
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Well balanced article from Mirror/Nursey shocker!
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Just think how successful we could have been if MON would have taken on board all of these new fangled training techniques that GH has introduced.
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Surprisingly good article that. It probably was discussed before, but does anyone else think that the drastic change in training methods and general discipline happening in mid-season, rather than in pre-season, is one of the main causes of the trouble?
I would say so. Some people will always enjoy the comfort zone.
I have no problem with the sound of Houllier's training methods at all. In fact O'Neill's sound prehistoric in comparison. But I do worry about the lack of changing room inspiration...although I also agree that players shouldn't need to have someone motivate them. The job is the job - to win.
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But I do worry about the lack of changing room inspiration...
That's where a good assistant manager should come in. Doesn't look like Gary Mac is doing it though.
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Good article i enjoyed reading it.
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I like the sound of Moussa Sissoko
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A good article, well balanced and sounds good to me, I never saw the jacuzzi on ebay though.
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For once an article that seems balanced and measured. I'm all for Houliers methods, particularly where player discipline and enforced relocation are concerned.
There is a marked comparison between the two when it comes to preperation, but there is also one on the field in the form of results, and that tends to be the bottom line.
MON acolytes would argue that his methods, however basic, bought results, something that we are in dire need of at the moment. Others would point out that his success had limits and his management was somewhat short term in overall view.
It would seem that a combination of the two is required, but in the meatime, however progressive Hou's regime is off the field, it needs to have a greater impact on the field and thats where the major doubt still lies.
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I think Gezza needs a bit of a charm offensive to win over the fans. Not sure how he does this, but he needs to get the vocal minority on his side to ease the pressure a bit.
A win against the Blues would go some way to help that, but if that doesn't happen he needs some sort of rallying cry to get people on-side.
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Surprisingly good article that. It probably was discussed before, but does anyone else think that the drastic change in training methods and general discipline happening in mid-season, rather than in pre-season, is one of the main causes of the trouble?
Possibly but I think if his methods were bringing results the players would have less room for complaint. In the end that will be the thing that decides his future however much we argue for allowing him time.
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I think the tide is turning in his favour and fans some fans who were against him are beginning to give him a chance (not pmk), a win over blues would go a huge way to winning over his critics as would another 2 or 3 decent signings.
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I think the tide is turning in his favour and fans some fans who were against him are beginning to give him a chance (not pmk), a win over blues would go a huge way to winning over his critics as would another 2 or 3 decent signings.
I have seen no evidence of the tide turning. Plenty of people were calling for him to be sacked at the last home game. While I don't agree with them they haven't gone away.
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Surprisingly good article that. It probably was discussed before, but does anyone else think that the drastic change in training methods and general discipline happening in mid-season, rather than in pre-season, is one of the main causes of the trouble?
I would say so. Some people will always enjoy the comfort zone.
I have no problem with the sound of Houllier's training methods at all. In fact O'Neill's sound prehistoric in comparison. But I do worry about the lack of changing room inspiration...although I also agree that players shouldn't need to have someone motivate them. The job is the job - to win.
Great article, this is what Ive been trying to get through to a lot of villa fans through snippets of information Ive read and heard although i didnt realise that Gerrard wasnt so motivational at team talk time,ifs thats not going to change we need a stronger captain or coach
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Decent clue as to the drop in Warnock's form this season, too.
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Good article, I did enjoy MON's reign, but I view Villa from a distance and not as a terrace spectator. Maybe that is why I didn't quite get the "dull" football tag. However we became consistent, maybe that's all we would have been, we'll never know.
These training methods Houllier has brought in has certainly upset the apple cart, it shows what selfish greedy lazy shits some of these players are in a bloody blessed lifestyle they have.
However I think given time, and if he can bring in the right players to play alongside the decent pool of talent we have here I think Houllier will turn us into a decent team and a team good to watch. I think he will be better off for our younger players than MON ever was or would have been.
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Now randy has backed his man and is giving him cash to spend the question of will he be sacked seems to have sudsided.we need to get behind the team and get out of trouble and there would be no point randy giving him money now to sack him later in the season- houllier is our manager and hopefully the chants levelled against him will stop- certainly a win at blues would be a good start.
I would hope we can pick up 7 points from our next 3 games and with new signings on top things could change very much for the better. Ultimately of course he will be judged on results and bringing in his type of player will surely improve us .
Interesting the part about players having to move nearer to the club given the news that ash has recently moved back to Hertfordshire, I wonder what to make of that one?
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In answer to the thread title - about 20 points.
Lerner and Faulkner will decide if Gerard stays or goes but we have the absolute worst form in the Premier League since he arrived and unless something changes we will be relegated. It is as simple as that.
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I think Gezza needs a bit of a charm offensive to win over the fans. Not sure how he does this, but he needs to get the vocal minority on his side to ease the pressure a bit.
To be fair, the poll ran on this site would suggest that it is actually the majority he needs to win over.
I agree with what Nev said above - from the article I'd say a combination of the two styles/approaches is the recipe for success. Someone also mentioned a better assistant to be the 'Mr Motivator', which was presumably the role Pinnochio played under him at Anfield. In contrast, I always thought or Fergie as more of a shouter than technical coach, yet he then employs those that are, such and Quieroz and McClaren.
MON's way get instant results, Gezza's takes more time. Which one actually brings BETTER results remains to be seen, although so far it's advantage MON.
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In answer to the thread title - about 20 points.
Lerner and Faulkner will decide if Gerard stays or goes but we have the absolute worst form in the Premier League since he arrived and unless something changes we will be relegated. It is as simple as that.
I firmly believe that "something" is the attitude of some players.
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In answer to the thread title - about 20 points.
Lerner and Faulkner will decide if Gerard stays or goes but we have the absolute worst form in the Premier League since he arrived and unless something changes we will be relegated. It is as simple as that.
I firmly believe that "something" is the attitude of some players.
I firmly believe you're correct. Hopefully an injection of new players will help focus minds.
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
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Cannot disagree with any of the article, which outlines differences in management, and also in success on the pitch.
Houllier's management 'style' does not go down well with anyone, and I can't see it changing even if we scrape out of this mess, which I doubt.
We are going down and Houllier was a dead man walking after the Liverpool debacle.
The only person who does'nt see it is Mr. Lerner.
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
three successive 6th place finishes off the back of how many million pounds spent? wasnt it telling of how limited MONs tactics and way of running things that the wheels constantly fell off big time after the turn of the year? F**k o'neil, that idiot is the reason our club is in a mess, not houllier...
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
With no obvious sign of being able to get us any higher. Quite the opposite in fact. Also, this "brought us to Wembley twice" rubbish gets on my nerves. What was the point in getting there when we didn't win either game?
Obviously we are in a very sticky situation at the moment, but if (and granted, it's a big if) Houllier signed the right players and got rid of the trouble makers in the squad, who knows what might happen (for the better or worse)?
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
What we should have done is begged him to stay, let him spend shitloads of more shit players, get 6th place again and go out of business.
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Totally agree mattja and ger! It may well be that houliier deserves some blame for the situation but the great proportion of the blame is down to martin o neill.
Multi-millions wasted on some average players who were paid crazy wages on huge contracts and walking away days before the start of a new season have done the club far more damage than a new manager who is trying to sort out the mess that was left behind!
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
Also, this "brought us to Wembley twice" rubbish gets on my nerves. What was the point in getting there when we didn't win either game?
The point of getting to Wembley? To try and win a trophy. We have only reached Wembley a handful of times since the late 70's and so I for one was grateful to go there twice in a month. You have to get there first before you can win it and I believe he deserves credit for getting us there.
Regarding the article, I understand what he is trying to say and it may well be that should we stay up we will have a better future under GH. The problem is that we could be kicking off our 22nd league game of the season on Sunday bottom of the league and away to our local rivals. Unless he gets us playing, and soon, then we may not have much of a future to look forward to.
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
With no obvious sign of being able to get us any higher. Quite the opposite in fact.
While I would agree that there might not have been any obvious signs, I think the fact we increased the points total and gap to 4th year on year make the 2nd sentence unfair.
What would we have been like this season under MON? Who knows, but what we do know is we have been very poor under Houllier, even allowing for the injuries. If he can improve the technical coaching and make more use of the funds available by sharper transfer dealings then all well and good, but whether or not that is enough, without a motivational qualities of an O'Neill, to get us to or above 6th reamins to be seen.
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MIRROR - 'The squad were often given at least two days off a week and training was laid-back under John Robertson and Steve Walford, with five-a-side games taking up the majority of the time.'
I hate to stick up for MON (retch) but if the training was that lax, how did we end up 6th for 3 seasons in a row?
I'll admit we were not the fittest and used to fade on frequent occasions, but if there was no supposed analysis of other teams, how did we break them down and beat them?
How did we nulify and beat Manure at their place?
How did we beat Chelski twice?
How did the defence look so much more organised?
I agree on the fitness side of things, but surely this 'no tactical training' thing can't be right?
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I agree on the fitness side of things, but surely this 'no tactical training' thing can't be right?
Maybe he did no "technical" training?
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Could say that if there was tactical analysis how did we lose 7-1 at Chelsea but I take your point rvf.
Mon has never reportedly been a training ground manager and was often not at training similar to cloughie - also he seems to man who prefers to big up his players than worry too much about the opposition and there is no doubt he could get the best out of certain players ,he was without doubt a good motivator .
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Could say that if there was tactical analysis how did we lose 7-1 at Chelsea but I take your point rvf.
When Gerard took us to Anield, if Liverpool had a bit more nous, and also Gerrard and Torres fit, I reckon they'd have hammered us about 7-0.
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Its bollocks isn't it, training is a means to get them fit and prepared for matches, you don't get any points for running round cones in a different direction than you used to. We've gone from top six to third from bottom and the players don't look any fitter to me.
Start putting points on the board and I'll be willing to praise the training routines, until then they are not working.
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Of course both mon and gerard have their good points and bad points , it's getting that right mixture that is the key between getting players to produce good quality football and get results at the same time- there are very few managers who can achieve both- a mix of houlliers tactical knowledge and style of pass and move combined with mons motivational qualities would be ideal but who knows what the rest of the season holds for us.
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Of course both mon and gerard have their good points and bad points , it's getting that right mixture that is the key between getting players to produce good quality football and get results at the same time- there are very few managers who can achieve both- a mix of houlliers tactical knowledge and style of pass and move combined with mons motivational qualities would be ideal but who knows what the rest of the season holds for us.
So let Gezza take training during the week and get Martin back to give them a rollicking before each game?
Works for me!
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Isn't it about time that these spoilt, over-paid prima-donnas took their responsibilities more seriously and tried to put in performances that justified their enormous salaries (they are starting to sound just like bankers). If the owner and his manager are insisting that these attitudes are expected as a norm from the playing staff then so much the better.
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.. the great proportion of the blame is down to martin o neill.
Multi-millions wasted on some average players who were paid crazy wages on huge contracts and walking away days before the start of a new season have done the club far more damage than a new manager who is trying to sort out the mess that was left behind!
I agree with this opinion wholeheartedly.
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Isn't it about time that these spoilt, over-paid prima-donnas took their responsibilities more seriously and tried to put in performances that justified their enormous salaries (they are starting to sound just like bankers). If the owner and his manager are insisting that these attitudes are expected as a norm from the playing staff then so much the better.
In a perfect world then yes but we are 3rd bottom. Whatever GH is doing, and it may seem the right thing to do putting these overpaid prima donnas in their place, is not working. All good and well saying how it SHOULD be but points are what we need and MON got them. Up to now Houllier has not, whatever method he uses.
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Absolutely off-topic but....
Houllier's style of managing has won far more than O'Neill's.
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Totally agree mattja and ger! It may well be that houliier deserves some blame for the situation but the great proportion of the blame is down to martin o neill.
Multi-millions wasted on some average players who were paid crazy wages on huge contracts and walking away days before the start of a new season have done the club far more damage than a new manager who is trying to sort out the mess that was left behind!
If you think last season was a mess, what do you call now?
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Well written article. But it just explains what we already know.
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By all accounts I bet MON was the only manager in the world (other than my old Junior level manager) who based his training methods on 5-a-side.
Whoever came in to take charge would have upset the majority of the squad. You can see it now....
"Running, press ups, circuit training, fucking sit ups - Now you must be joking. Fuck this boss, I'm off down the titty bar, you coming Dunney"
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Of course both mon and gerard have their good points and bad points , it's getting that right mixture that is the key between getting players to produce good quality football and get results at the same time- there are very few managers who can achieve both- a mix of houlliers tactical knowledge and style of pass and move combined with mons motivational qualities would be ideal but who knows what the rest of the season holds for us.
So let Gezza take training during the week and get Martin back to give them a rollicking before each game?
We'd just need to restrict the rollicking to either before kick off or half time, as we only ever turned up for 45 minutes a game. My preference would be for half time.
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The players, for all I care, can be commuting from John O'Groats to sit lounging in the Bodymoor Heath jacuzzi whilst chatting on their mobile phones, as long as they do the business on the pitch come match day.
Manifestly they're not, and for so long as that remains the case, all the talk of changes of culture and method is just fatuous bull shit.
I know it has already been said, but the answer to the question posed in the thread title is about 20 points, a dozen or so league places and an immeasurable amount of positivity around all things Aston Villa.
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It seems that MoN would target a player, go out and get him whereas GH targets a player, it comes out in the paper and then he falls at the final fence when the player doesn't join us. Of course it did help MoN that he would offer silly wages for him to join but I can't remember if he did miss out on any signings he went after, maybe i'm wrong plus a lot of the deals would go through quietly and out the media gaze.
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Despite everything, christ I miss O'Neill :(
never mind the players, the confidence he gave me in the side on match day is sorely missed
travelling down to the Emirates or up to Old Trafford knowing that despite not having a star studded line up like the opposition, the fact we have O'Neills passion on the touchline and in the dressing room gives us more than half a chance
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I think he comes across as a headmaster type that the players don't like instead of playing to their ego's like Mon used to.
I don't agree with telling players they are fantastic or magnificent all the time but motivating them match day is key.
They don't look motivated to me at all, and Houllier has definately not won me over yet. I'm prepared to give him more time but results really must improve! Scum away followed by Manchester City, Wigan then UTD away we could really end up adrift of teams above us and that's what really worries me
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O Neill was excellent at getting the very best out of his preferred players. He actually improved the games of most of our key players in his 4 years. Gabby is a pretty limited player in all truth, but O Neill got that extra 10% out of him and in turn we had 4 years running, that Gab hit double figures.
Fitness issue aside, Gabby looks lost under Houllier. He's missing a certain desire he had, and belief, from playing under O Neill.
My main concern with Houllier is that we've look tactically even more inept than we ever did under O Neill. Houllier would have been noted as more a tactician than O Neill for sure, while O Neill is more the man-management style of manager. But it's not working out. We look disjointed, lost and clueless.
Do the senior players want to really bust a gut for Houllier? No they don't. Aside from Heskey, who's on Ged's wavelength. Downing and Albrighton have also relished perhaps simply game time more so than Houllier himself. Certainly Mark. Downing I suspect is enjoying what we're trying to do right now.
The biggest difference though, is a team, minus one player, has gone from 6th, not far shy of the top 4, to 18th. By this point last season we must have been nearing 40 points already, instead of sitting ugly on 21 points right now. Injuries only count for so much. Those concerns aren't a patch the worrying sign of awful decisions and a clueless looking team.
O Neill only had a plan A granted. But at least he had a plan A. Houllier doesn't seem to have that yet.
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Lets hope he has a Plan A, but this (MON's) team just don't know how to play it, and hopefully (fingers crossed) the players he brings in understand what Plan A is all about.
We can only hope cause we are stuck with him for the time being. I'm keeping my glasses half full on for now, I think he deserves a chance to bring players in and see what he can do with them.
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It makes you wonder who the dis-satisfied players think the club will bring in if they sack Houllier. Can't be many managers around today who train in such a sloppy easy going manner. Short of building a time machine and kidnapping some coach from the 70's they're stuffed.
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very salient point Greg.
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These players that are coming in for widespread stick are near enough the same bunch that helped us to successive top 6 finishes and the latter stages of the two cups last year.
With a few exceptions (Liverpool away, Man Citeh away) I haven't seen a lack of effort, rather it's been a difficulty to implement GH's (or possibly more accurately Gary Mac's) plans - such as they are. Sometimes we actually start well, but then fall apart when the opposition up the tempo or score.
You can blame the players for that, but surely a key component of any managerial role is to get the best out of your resources. MON -for all his faults- could do that more often than not. The players who spent long periods on the sidelines under him and might have had a genuine grievance haven't exactly covered themselves in glory under new management either.
Collywobbles mentioned in his book years ago that MON's methods in training with Leicester were 'different.' Less drills and organisation and more knockabout. All be it knockabout with a vaguely match-related theme. That was back in 2000, so it doesn't sound like there was a huge difference from 2006 onwards with us. However the oddball managed it, he got a response though. Players -those in the first XI at least - wanted to play for him. And plenty of ex players (admittedly not a huge amount from Villa) still sing his praises.
I guess being greedy you'd want someone who has that kind of charisma but who also has an awareness of the changes in the modern game and the importance of keeping the ball at times. As an example, Fergiescum was the typical meat and potatoes 4-4-2 manager for years, happy to make it jobs for the boys and have mates as assistants too. Before he copped on for the need to progress and get a wider perspective if Man U were to be effective again in Europe and brought in Queiroz to oversee changes in playing style and player recruitment.
It would have been great if MON had had the humility to at least seek a second opinion, or brought in someone with a different slant on things. But that's by the by.
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What I don't get is if the training was so sloppy previously why did we score so many more goals from set pieces and also defend a lot better than we are now with our double training sessions.
Players at this level can be coached to play any style you like so I think the so called change in style is a myth.
Personally I think all players should live close to the club, to give them a better feel for the club and the fans, I didn't realize that players were allowed to do so.
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Mobile phones were banned at the training ground, players were told to cut out non-football related chit-chat in training and those living miles away from the club, such as Stephen Warnock in Ormskirk in Lancashire, were asked to relocate .
Seems very sensible thing to do. After all they are professional players and should act like professionals.
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The players, for all I care, can be commuting from John O'Groats to sit lounging in the Bodymoor Heath jacuzzi whilst chatting on their mobile phones, as long as they do the business on the pitch come match day.
Sloppy habits result in sloppy performance. They are well paid and therefore should have excellent discipline in preparing for match days.
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The players, for all I care, can be commuting from John O'Groats to sit lounging in the Bodymoor Heath jacuzzi whilst chatting on their mobile phones, as long as they do the business on the pitch come match day.
Sloppy habits result in sloppy performance. They are well paid and therefore should have excellent discipline in preparing for match days.
My point being that if that was the regime under MON, it was not serving us too badly. The supposedly more "professional" regime of Houllier finds us far worse off in terms of both points and places than a year ago.
If any organisation is fundamentally sound - and Villa weren't in relegation danger before Houllier took over - sometimes the art of good management - and this applies in any walk of life - is to look around you and, if necessary, bite your tongue, put your master plans on the back burner, and instigate change at a pace perhaps more accommodating to that of your current charges.
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What I don't get is if the training was so sloppy previously why did we score so many more goals from set pieces and also defend a lot better than we are now with our double training sessions.
Players at this level can be coached to play any style you like so I think the so called change in style is a myth.
Personally I think all players should live close to the club, to give them a better feel for the club and the fans, I didn't realize that players were allowed to do so.
I suppose you could say he was an excellant motivator. I also believe he knew exactly what he wanted from limited players. I've certainly read accounts of him showing his displeasure with players who showed too much flair at celtic and didn't stick to the "plan". Only problem with that is once the manager leaves you're left with limited players who can't cope with anything else. All very well if MON can motivate a fat-arsed Dunne but not much use to anyone else
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Without doubt MON had the ability to motivate "his" players and get them to play his limited idea of football effectively.
Now we have the opposite a bloke that dosent seem to care that much and his methods are not working.
I dont have much faith that he knows how to turn this around, Sunday is a huge game for him and us.
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What I don't get is if the training was so sloppy previously why did we score so many more goals from set pieces and also defend a lot better than we are now with our double training sessions.
Our legendry set peice success was not in abundance last season, but the frailty of our defence is a this season issue
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It's far too simplistic to put it all down to motivation, that won't keep you in the top 6 for three years on the bounce. Wee were well organised, we had some very good players who knew their jobs and what their role was within the team. That's somethingbthat gets ignored by many, there's a world of difference between having the best players and having the best team.
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It's far too simplistic to put it all down to motivation, that won't keep you in the top 6 for three years on the bounce. Wee were well organised, we had some very good players who knew their jobs and what their role was within the team. That's somethingbthat gets ignored by many, there's a world of difference between having the best players and having the best team.
I agree Chris and we have lost Barry Laursen Milner all players that could influence a game, we are lacking a focal point in the team now which is a big problem. Our inactivity in the summer and the limited opportunity to appoint a manager is the prime cause of our predicament.
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Without doubt MON had the ability to motivate "his" players and get them to play his limited idea of football effectively.
Now we have the opposite a bloke that dosent seem to care that much and his methods are not working.
I dont have much faith that he knows how to turn this around, Sunday is a huge game for him and us.
"So Lerner and his key confidants such as chief executive Paul Faulkner deliberately sought out a successor who was completely different to the Irishman."
I can see how Faulkner with his experience as a Relationship Manager at MBNA would know what was needed. After all, he's done a fecking sterling job since he took over responsibility for transfers in May.
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Without doubt MON had the ability to motivate "his" players and get them to play his limited idea of football effectively.
Now we have the opposite a bloke that dosent seem to care that much and his methods are not working.
I dont have much faith that he knows how to turn this around, Sunday is a huge game for him and us.
"So Lerner and his key confidants such as chief executive Paul Faulkner deliberately sought out a successor who was completely different to the Irishman."
I can see how Faulkner with his experience as a Relationship Manager at MBNA would know what was needed. After all, he's done a fecking sterling job since he took over responsibility for transfers in May.
The problem was that the summer went by and nothing happened except selling Milner and MON walking
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If MON had been after Makoun, he'd have been signed, in the shirt, on the pitch, and consigned to a lifetime on the bench by now.
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If MON was after Makoun... oh no he would not have been.
But if he had... for 1 second lets be realistic. He would have been signed on the last day of the window, for an inflated fee with 10k more in his pocket than he would have had 3 weeks ago.
One noticeable different is that GH has targets in the transfer market and is willing to play the game more. Martin O'Neill was a fumbling bafoon and we all hated the way he procrastinated to the point of delirium all window and then either scrambled for too much, or got nothing.
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If MON had been after Makoun, he'd have been signed, in the shirt, on the pitch, and consigned to a lifetime on the bench by now.
If he was better than Petrov, it would be as it should be with Petrov on the bench and Makoun earning his money playing 45 games a season.
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awh come on now. MON used to play his favourites however bad they were. Say what you like about GH but he at least drops out of form players
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Without doubt MON had the ability to motivate "his" players and get them to play his limited idea of football effectively.
Now we have the opposite a bloke that dosent seem to care that much and his methods are not working.
I dont have much faith that he knows how to turn this around, Sunday is a huge game for him and us.
"So Lerner and his key confidants such as chief executive Paul Faulkner deliberately sought out a successor who was completely different to the Irishman."
I can see how Faulkner with his experience as a Relationship Manager at MBNA would know what was needed. After all, he's done a fecking sterling job since he took over responsibility for transfers in May.
Why don't you apply for his job? What with you being an absolute expert at every single aspect of running a football club.
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awh come on now. MON used to play his favourites however bad they were. Say what you like about GH but he at least drops out of form players
See despite the result and the falling outs, I still have a better long term feel about the old Frenchman than I did about O'Neill - I fear the latter was a glorified John Gregory. Similar results too.
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If MON had been after Makoun, he'd have been signed, in the shirt, on the pitch, and consigned to a lifetime on the bench by now.
If he was better than Petrov, it would be as it should be with Petrov on the bench and Makoun earning his money playing 45 games a season.
Don't be silly, he'd have them both in the team with Makoun playing at right back.
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The players, for all I care, can be commuting from John O'Groats to sit lounging in the Bodymoor Heath jacuzzi whilst chatting on their mobile phones, as long as they do the business on the pitch come match day.
Manifestly they're not, and for so long as that remains the case, all the talk of changes of culture and method is just fatuous bull shit.
I know it has already been said, but the answer to the question posed in the thread title is about 20 points, a dozen or so league places and an immeasurable amount of positivity around all things Aston Villa.
Nail on head.
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"So Lerner and his key confidants such as chief executive Paul Faulkner deliberately sought out a successor who was completely different to the Irishman."
I can see how Faulkner with his experience as a Relationship Manager at MBNA would know what was needed. After all, he's done a fecking sterling job since he took over responsibility for transfers in May.
Why don't you apply for his job? What with you being an absolute expert at every single aspect of running a football club.
No-one on here can play professional football but it doesn't stop us making judgements on our lot.
The idea of MON spending money as if he's had the keys to the petty cash tin without anyone knowing is surely in the remit of PF.
The appointment of the new manager seemed to be the result of an advert in the job centre and then wait 4 weeks to see who applied.
Given that Houllier is out in France negotiating the Makoun deal whereas in other clubs that's left to the Chief Executive, I will ask a genuine question, what does Paul Faulkner do ?
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It makes you wonder who the dis-satisfied players think the club will bring in if they sack Houllier. Can't be many managers around today who train in such a sloppy easy going manner. Short of building a time machine and kidnapping some coach from the 70's they're stuffed.
I don't think it needs a manager like Martin to come in again. What is needed, IMO, is a manager who portrays his ideas and methods to the players in such a way as they believe in them, and therefore him, and effectively 'buy into' what he wants them to do.
Basically, I think the faults are not with what Houllier is doing, but with how he's getting his message across. And yes, I do find that a little 'precious' of the players.
Hopefully, with time and some of his own players brought in, Gezza will get there.
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It's far too simplistic to put it all down to motivation, that won't keep you in the top 6 for three years on the bounce. Wee were well organised, we had some very good players who knew their jobs and what their role was within the team. That's somethingbthat gets ignored by many, there's a world of difference between having the best players and having the best team.
I agree Chris and we have lost Barry Laursen Milner all players that could influence a game, we are lacking a focal point in the team now which is a big problem. Our inactivity in the summer and the limited opportunity to appoint a manager is the prime cause of our predicament.
See, I don't get this 'limited opportunity' argument. Actually no - I do 'get it', but I just don't agree with it.
Had we panicked and got someone in during those 5 days before the West Ham game then fair enough, but we didn't and instead took our time. The key to the whole recruitment process seemed to be who applied, which to me is wrong. They should have sat down and said "Who do we want?" and then made an approach, whether they are in a job or not. Someone like Moyes would have been top of my list and as unfair to everton as that may be, we have to look out for Villa first and foremost.
Now, I know some on here will be bursting to post "How do you know they didn't?" and of course I don't know that, but my argument is they could have done given the time between MON walking and Gezza coming in, so therefore calling it a 'limited opportunity' is wrong, IMO.
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If MON had been after Makoun, he'd have been signed, in the shirt, on the pitch, and consigned to a lifetime on the bench by now.
a rewrite of history attempt?
Its January 14., I doubt Mon would have switched on his phone yet.
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'How do you know they didn't'.
As I recall both Moyes, hughes and Jol all made it clear they wouldn't leave their jobs.
Why it assumed Villa can just pick who they want when they want ? For all you know JohnM Mourinho was Lerners first choice but when approached he said no thanks.
Oh for the days of Ellis and his selection policies. Would Mon have caught him out ;)
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The idea of MON spending money as if he's had the keys to the petty cash tin without anyone knowing is surely in the remit of PF.
Maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick with your post, but isn't this precisely one of the reasons he walked in the end?
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And that's my point - were we to try and get a manager in a job it's a longer process with approaches to the club first and compensation needing to be agreed. We had time to do all that, but from what little was made public we seemed not to. So the 'limited opportunity' notion is one I do not buy into.
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The idea of MON spending money as if he's had the keys to the petty cash tin without anyone knowing is surely in the remit of PF.
Maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick with your post, but isn't this precisely one of the reasons he walked in the end?
The point I was attempting to make was why it took so long for us to realise that the wages to turnover ratio was getting a little out of hand, surely we have budgets to stick to.
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And that's my point - were we to try and get a manager in a job it's a longer process with approaches to the club first and compensation needing to be agreed. We had time to do all that, but from what little was made public we seemed not to. So the 'limited opportunity' notion is one I do not buy into.
I agree with you John but the only fly in the ointment is that all the likely people on our wish list in August have hardly pulled up any trees since, especially at a time when the club are trying to get the spending under check which has made us less attractive to potential managers.
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As I heard (Gen. k ) Randy was flying (in his jet) all over speaking to those candidates that had been identified by a specialist organisation, paid to do so.
Normally owners tend to agree a shortlist usually at a time out of season then sack their existing manager.
Thanks to Mons carefully planned departure they had no time and a limited list of managers. On paper a man who had successfully managed several clubs a winner of real trophies, wasn't a bad choice.
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The point I was attempting to make was why it took so long for us to realise that the wages to turnover ratio was getting a little out of hand, surely we have budgets to stick to.
Who knows? Maybe they were speculating to accumulate, and trusted MON to get us to the Champions League, where the extra revenue would have offset the high wages. When the CL place started to look less and less likely, then the brakes were put on? Obviously this is just a possible reason, but seems plausible to me.
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As I heard (Gen. k )
Thanks to Mons carefully planned departure they had no time and a limited list of managers. On paper a man who had successfully managed several clubs a winner of real trophies, wasn't a bad choice.
I don't think it was carefully planned - I think it was an act of impetuousness.
Anyway, one's Irish - the other's French.
There's a difference for you !
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On paper a man who had successfully managed several clubs a winner of real trophies, wasn't a bad choice.
True, yet we can often say players look like good signings 'on paper' when they come in, yet will still blame the manager if they turn out to be crap. As an example, I saw very little grumblings when we were after Stephen Warnock. In the same way the board should be judged for the sucess, or lack thereof, of the manager they chose..
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If we survive this season which I'm confident we will do I would expect houllier over his 3 years in charge to achieve more than mon did during his 4 years - we just need to get through this season and I'm sure in the summer he will make many changes and we will be a better team to watch and also achieve results.
Houllier has a far better record as a manager than o neill over his career and although he may be older he has much more modern methods than his predecessor.
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If we survive this season which I'm confident we will do I would expect houllier over his 3 years in charge to achieve more than mon did during his 4 years
I hope you're right as the only way he can really do that is to win a trophy or get 4th. OK, 5th would be better, but hardly 'achieving' anything more.
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If we survive this season which I'm confident we will do I would expect houllier over his 3 years in charge to achieve more than mon did during his 4 years - we just need to get through this season and I'm sure in the summer he will make many changes and we will be a better team to watch and also achieve results.
Houllier has a far better record as a manager than o neill over his career and although he may be older he has much more modern methods than his predecessor.
That's a decent point, I think non Villa people looking in think we over achieved in the last few years as a result of MON, but I think we under achieved under him given the funds he was allowed access to.
Whether Houllier is the man to improve on MON's record is going to take a pretty large leap of faith at the moment though.
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If we survive this season which I'm confident we will do I would expect houllier over his 3 years in charge to achieve more than mon did during his 4 years - we just need to get through this season and I'm sure in the summer he will make many changes and we will be a better team to watch and also achieve results.
Houllier has a far better record as a manager than o neill over his career and although he may be older he has much more modern methods than his predecessor.
Venglos/Taylor
There should never, ever have been a question of whether we could survive this season after finishing on 64 points last season. Even under Venglos we only flirted with relegation towards the very end of the season and were never actually in the bottom 3 .
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Villadawg we are only 2 wins off the top 10- judge him at the end of the season, we both have hugely different opinions on the previous manager but maybe just maybe he realised he had taken the team as far as be could and that he felt the team this season without milner would struggle much more.
Some people talk as though we are miles adrift , the table is so tight that any team who puts a decent run together could move up 10 places.
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Some people talk as though we are miles adrift , the table is so tight that any team who puts a decent run together could move up 10 places.
True, but it would be nice to look as through we're capable of winning a match - let alone putting a decent run together.
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Villadawg we are only 2 wins off the top 10- judge him at the end of the season, we both have hugely different opinions on the previous manager but maybe just maybe he realised he had taken the team as far as be could and that he felt the team this season without milner would struggle much more.
Some people talk as though we are miles adrift , the table is so tight that any team who puts a decent run together could move up 10 places.
I just look at the numbers. All the conjecture about relationships with players, style of play, potential transfers, tactics and the like is all very interesting but my opinions are rooted in what I see in the numbers/results
When I first began voicing my concern on here, people were saying we are only a couple of wins off top 4/5, now it is 7 points from top 10 even if all the other teams stood still.
I am not talking as though we are miles adrift, I am talking as though we are the worst performing team in the league since Gerard took over. Looking at it purely from a results perspective, we will be relegated unless something changes. If you take into consideration the 3 teams we've beaten (wolves, blackpool, wba) it doesn't look any better.
I have no choice but to wait and see what happens. If Dave had sorted the CEO job out for me and I were the one making the decisions, he would have been sacked after the Sunderland game because I don't see where that run of 2 or 3 wins is going to come from and I wouldn't be willing to risk it any further on a man who's record after half a season at the Villa is worse than Billy McNeill's.
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For all our talk about only being x points from x position, we only need to be 1 point from safety, or even less given our goal difference, after 38 games for the worst to happen.
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Three successive sixth-place finishes in the Premier League - O'Neill......and we let him walk. ::)
Rather he jumped out of his Pram after his Toys.
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Villadawg we are only 2 wins off the top 10- judge him at the end of the season, we both have hugely different opinions on the previous manager but maybe just maybe he realised he had taken the team as far as be could and that he felt the team this season without milner would struggle much more.
Some people talk as though we are miles adrift , the table is so tight that any team who puts a decent run together could move up 10 places.
I just look at the numbers. All the conjecture about relationships with players, style of play, potential transfers, tactics and the like is all very interesting but my opinions are rooted in what I see in the numbers/results
When I first began voicing my concern on here, people were saying we are only a couple of wins off top 4/5, now it is 7 points from top 10 even if all the other teams stood still.
I am not talking as though we are miles adrift, I am talking as though we are the worst performing team in the league since Gerard took over. Looking at it purely from a results perspective, we will be relegated unless something changes. If you take into consideration the 3 teams we've beaten (wolves, blackpool, wba) it doesn't look any better.
I have no choice but to wait and see what happens. If Dave had sorted the CEO job out for me and I were the one making the decisions, he would have been sacked after the Sunderland game because I don't see where that run of 2 or 3 wins is going to come from and I wouldn't be willing to risk it any further on a man who's record after half a season at the Villa is worse than Billy McNeill's.
We keep hearing about these fans who want immediate success, I just wish you was Alex Ferguson's boss back in the 80's, you would have done us all a favour!
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If randy was going to axe houllier I agree it would have been after the Sunderland game, there would be no point now he is starting to bring in his own players- we will stick with him now and I think a win at blues would really lift the club no end , players and fans alike- we were the better team against them in the cup and if our players are up for the battle we will win.
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The difference between o neill and houllier
One is an arrogant, tricolore loving, egotistical tosser - the other is a Frenchman?
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The difference between o neill and houllier
One is an arrogant, tricolore loving, egotistical tosser - the other is a Frenchman?
I liked that :)
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The difference between o neill and houllier
About 3 years in age.
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Houlier has alienated more fans in a four months than MON did in 4 years, that is some achievement
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Hopefully tomorrow it will be Makoun and Sidwell!
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Hopefully tomorrow it will be Makoun and Sidwell!
Oh Damn, I was hoping we would finally have a replacement for Milner.
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Hopefully tomorrow it will be Makoun and Sidwell!
Oh Damn, I was hoping we would finally have a replacement for Milner.
Milner was a good record signing bought as a winger
I'm comparing 2 midfielders that the managers bought for around the same price.
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The difference between o neill and houllier
One is an arrogant, tricolore loving, egotistical tosser - the other is a Frenchman?
I liked that :)
One of these days one of you pair will add something interresting to the debate but I'm not holding my breath.
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The results Houlliers has been getting have been poor but then he did inherit a bunch of players that didn't really have a pre-season (anyone that saw the team in Portugal and at Walsall could tell you that), were unfit and played 1970's football (with some 1970's players) relying on the manager to coax every ounce out of them to get a result. Despite all that results have been poor BUT the idea that MON would have had us in sixth now without the 30M he needed every year to keep us there is laughable. Like everyone else I am concerned that results have to start coming soon. Assuming they do, next season will see us getting results as good as O'Neill playing football that will be worth watching.
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As I've been saying on other threads, if MON had stayed on, we would have had an uninterested, dispirited MON as manager, dejected by not having money to spend and because he was overlooked for the Liverpool job. Whether results had been as bad as under Houllier, I don't know, but I don't think the table would have been a pretty sight in any case.
The interesting point is the claim that Lerner wanted a new manager as different to MON as possible. If the rumours that we prefered Moyes are correct, then the claim seems unprobable. But if it is true, then we should perhaps ask if the board had expected (or at leasted feared) the kind of situation we are in now. Everyone knows that an organization needs time to adapt, and thus, that change should be implemented gradually. Even so, it looks as if we, in a remarkably short period of time, have gone from a plan involving laissez-faire spending on players with a traditional British manager in charge to one involving nurturing of home-grown talent and bargain signings combined with careful long-term planning by an experienced French football academic. Plans don't come much different than those two.
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As I've been saying on other threads, if MON had stayed on, we would have had an uninterested, dispirited MON as manager, dejected by not having money to spend and because he was overlooked for the Liverpool job. Whether results had been as bad as under Houllier, I don't know, but I don't think the table would have been a pretty sight in any case.
The interesting point is the claim that Lerner wanted a new manager as different to MON as possible. If the rumours that we prefered Moyes are correct, then the claim seems unprobable. But if it is true, then we should perhaps ask if the board had expected (or at leasted feared) the kind of situation we are in now. Everyone knows that an organization needs time to adapt, and thus, that change should be implemented gradually. Even so, it looks as if we, in a remarkably short period of time, have gone from a plan involving laissez-faire spending on players with a traditional British manager in charge to one involving nurturing of home-grown talent and bargain signings combined with careful long-term planning by an experienced French football academic. Plans don't come much different than those two.
Good post, and it's these differences that the players are clearly struggling to adapt to. Whilst we all accept that Houllier needs time to put his own side together, the position we find ourselves in in the league requires more of the MON style of management (that is to say getting the best out of a bunch of average players) than the Houllier ( get to Bodymoor Heath now or I'll cut your balls off) way of doing things. The probability is that in the long run Houllier will bring the best out of the players that we have, the problem is whether or not we can cope in the mean time.
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Revealing article. All useless if Villa get relegated, though. Then, Houllier and all of the players on high wages will leave & we'll be trying to get Eddie Howe or Paul Jewell to cobble together a cheap team of youngsters and has-beens to get us up. And Lerner's investment will be worth nothing.
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Forgive my football ignorance, but have either Houllier or MON been involved in relegation battles before and how did they perform?