Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Archie on August 26, 2010, 10:20:26 PM
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It's courtesy of him (last year for the choices he made from the bench, this season for leaving us in the s**t resigning five days before the start of the season) if we are out of Europe in August for the second year in a row, and if for the second year in a row we have been literally humiliated by an average Austrian team with odious, violent, sectarian fans that now are mocking us with banners like: "the nightmare returns".
In one word: thank you for leaving us in freefall.
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You missed 'Spending lots of money on shit players'.
God I hate the little bastard now.
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I wonder if he feels guilty or is secretly smiling to himself.
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I wonder if he feels guilty or is secretly smiling to himself.
I don't care, the man is now even more of a twat in my eyes, and I used to be pro-MON.
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As i said shortly after he went, the wider of turmoil caused by his leaving when he did wouldn't be felt until a bit later on.
We're now starting to feel it, and unless we make a good appointment, and quick, we're going to feel it for a fair bit longer.
Fucking off when he did, taking his entire coaching staff with him showed the supporters and the club absolutely no respect at all. He did a lot of good work with us, but he undid an awful lot of it by fucking up this season so effectively.
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Yep, thank you Martin fuckin O'Neill.
We will overcome but we will NEVER forget that you left us in the shyte.
AVFC paid you VERY well, and on YOUR terms, but you let the club down badly.
You can sit next to a fellow Irishman, this time from the southern part of the island next time you 'visit' Villa Park.
Thanks a million.
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Nice one Archie. I agree 100%. He really is a cock of the highest order and taking such action so late in the day will ruin this season I fear.
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all that wasted money on that dire he bought....
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I'd love to bump into the fucker!
I was walking the streets of telford tonight, Im glad I didn't bump into him otherwise id be in nick now
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Sorry, it's too easy to blame one man. He takes a fair bit of responsibility not certainly not all imo.
When do the players except any responsibility for losing 6-0 at Newcastle and another inept showing tonight. It's not like Playstaion, they are professionals.
And much as I loathe to criticise RAL and the General, 3 weeks and counting to get a new manager in at this stage of the season (transfer window) is piss poor. Especially when we've had several candidates that expressed an interest ofter 2 days who will no doubt come into the reckoning anyway.
I'd love just to heap all of the blame on to MON - easy that. But the events of the last two games come down to players and RAL too im sorry to say.
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I'd love to bump into the fucker!
I was walking the streets of telford tonight, Im glad I didn't bump into him otherwise id be in nick now
I know football's expensive these days Phil, but I'd have to give it up before selling my body.
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I'd love to bump into the fucker!
I was walking the streets of telford tonight, Im glad I didn't bump into him otherwise id be in nick now
I know football's expensive these days Phil, but I'd have to give it up before selling my body.
Bravo sir
No I had to leave the inlaws house as I was about to get very angry
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I do indeed thank you Mr O'Neil.
For going.
We will (eventually) be fine.
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Yes thanks for leaving not only the total ineptitude of those present tonight but also instructions not to play the team that kept finishing 6th, getting to Wembley, beating Man Ure away etc. ;)
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The man was given far too much autonomy!
I really hope that RAL has learnt from this and the next man in charge is held accountable for more than excuses.
Sralex at manure has a position similar but can get his team to deliver week in week out. MON exploited the fact that RAL was new to the premier league and didn't appoint a suitable director of operations to keep him in check.
Deep down I hope that this has taught the board a valuable lesson and the next man in charge can build on what we have yet not given the full run of the club.
Thanks for raising our expectations O'Neill but at the end of the day you left us deep in the shit.
For me, it's on a par with H0dge!
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I agree with all the hatred on this thread....... but I also wish he was still at the Villa!
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The fruits of his largely inept transfer dealings were on full show tonight. MON, you had my support but your sabotage of this club revealed everything we didn't want to admit we really knew. Petty, spiteful egotist.
He won't get another top job, as his last year at VP exposed his limitations.
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It's pretty obvious the timing of it was designed to enhance his reputation. He knew we wouldn't get anyone of real quality in before the season, and he wanted to make sure we do worse without him.
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It's pretty obvious the timing of it was designed to enhance his reputation. He knew we wouldn't get anyone of real quality in before the season, and he wanted to make sure we do worse without him.
Fully agree with you.
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And perhaps give a bit of a two fingers up to the fans who began to boo him.
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As i said shortly after he went, the wider of turmoil caused by his leaving when he did wouldn't be felt until a bit later on.
We're now starting to feel it, and unless we make a good appointment, and quick, we're going to feel it for a fair bit longer.
I think you're over estimating what a decent manager could do and under estimating the shit we are in. We're going to be stuck with Heskey, Davies, Beye, Sidwell and NRC for a very long time. It's going to cost the board a fortune to pay them off. MON knew this, we'd be lucky to get £10m for the lot, not that anybody will sign them, the wage demands are far too high, so the only solution is we pay the difference until the end of their contracts.
No new manager is going to be able to solve this problem overnight. Best thing he could do is let them train alone and focus on the players he wants to keep, hopefully bringing in a few on loan. What a mess!
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He won't get another top job, as his last year at VP exposed his limitations.
Taking a club who has finished nowhere for a number of years to consistently finish 6th, make a Carling Cup final, which could've gone differently had Vidic been sent off, and an FA Cup semi-final, which could've gone differently had we been given a penalty.
Do you not get it? We finished as high as you will ever see Villa finish (unless a billionaire gives us all his money). The only chance you have is to give someone the job for many, many years to build a team.
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Yes, he made mistakes.
Who doesn't?
But I always maintained the biggest danger with Martin is not what he does in the job, its what he leaves behind when he jacks a job in.
As I said in another thread:
Step 1 - Take a manager who is poor tactically but a brilliant and unparalelled motivator.
Step 2 - Give him 4 years. You now have players who are motivated but poorly organised.
Step 3 - Take manager away.
What have you got??
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As i said shortly after he went, the wider of turmoil caused by his leaving when he did wouldn't be felt until a bit later on.
We're now starting to feel it, and unless we make a good appointment, and quick, we're going to feel it for a fair bit longer.
I think you're over estimating what a decent manager could do and under estimating the shit we are in. We're going to be stuck with Heskey, Davies, Beye, Sidwell and NRC for a very long time. It's going to cost the board a fortune to pay them off. MON knew this, we'd be lucky to get £10m for the lot, not that anybody will sign them, the wage demands are far too high, so the only solution is we pay the difference until the end of their contracts.
No new manager is going to be able to solve this problem overnight. Best thing he could do is let them train alone and focus on the players he wants to keep, hopefully bringing in a few on loan. What a mess!
No-one can over-estimate what a decent Manager can do.
No-one is under- estimating what a mess we're in.
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I can't believe I felt a bit sorry for him after the West Ham game. Bet he's having a wry old smile tonight. He undid most of his good work for us with his last petulant act.
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As i said shortly after he went, the wider of turmoil caused by his leaving when he did wouldn't be felt until a bit later on.
We're now starting to feel it, and unless we make a good appointment, and quick, we're going to feel it for a fair bit longer.
Fucking off when he did, taking his entire coaching staff with him showed the supporters and the club absolutely no respect at all. He did a lot of good work with us, but he undid an awful lot of it by fucking up this season so effectively.
Spot on.
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Can we stop blaming him now!? He didn't make bêye play left back did he!?
I blame the board at the moment for their lack of direction!!
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Can we stop blaming him now!? He didn't make bêye play left back did he!?
I blame the board at the moment for their lack of direction!!
I blame him, the board, the players, everyone.
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Can we stop blaming him now!? He didn't make bêye play left back did he!?
I blame the board at the moment for their lack of direction!!
Give over. He didn't play Beye at left back, but he did leave us with only one left back in the squad. It's going to be a long time before Martin won't be to blame for this mess. One things for sure, if we somehow turn things round and make a sucess of this season, MON won't be distancing himself from that!
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Frankly O'Neill stitched us up massively, but at the same time that is the past now. We have had two weeks to act, but we seem to be in some sort of disastrous holding pattern. Action should have been taken by now, this is completely unacceptable.
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. We're going to be stuck with Heskey, Davies, Beye, Sidwell and NRC for a very long time. It's going to cost the board a fortune to pay them off. MON knew this, we'd be lucky to get £10m for the lot, not that anybody will sign them, the wage demands are far too high, so the only solution is we pay the difference until the end of their contracts.
No new manager is going to be able to solve this problem overnight. Best thing he could do is let them train alone and focus on the players he wants to keep, hopefully bringing in a few on loan. What a mess!
Kind of agree but kind of disagree.
I wouldn't have give you fifty quid for Dawson from Spurs 2 years ago but since Admiral Akbar out of Star Wars has been there he's looked pretty damn decent and been called up for England. In fact, you could say he's swapped scenarios with Davies.
So the question is.....
Is that down to the players ability?
Or the managers?
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Yes thanks fpr Davis 9m, Heskey 4m, Beye 2m and Petrov 7m...22m of waste!
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Thinking about it, O'Neill is just like Tony Blair.
Fucked off at just the right time to dump his successor right in it.
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Yes thanks fpr Davis 9m, Heskey 4m, Beye 2m and Petrov 7m...22m of waste!
They should call he twat 'Camelot' for all the money he gives away. Put all the money that you have paid in a lifetime of support into a wallet. It would still not pay for a weeks wages of some of these. That is how insignificant we are.
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In one word: thank you for leaving us in freefall.
That's 6 words though! ;)
What you should've said was - "In one word: ******"
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Thinking about it, O'Neill is just like Tony Blair.
Fucked off at just the right time to dump his successor right in it.
Now you mention it you're spot on.
Although I begrudgingly called Blair a genius for doing it. That's not what I'm calling O'Neill at the moment.
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That same squad of players, bar one, were in the top 6 last season, and were at Wembley twice. Managers come and go, it's how clubs respond to it that matters. Ellis - and I was no fan - always acted swiftly in appointments and seemed to have a plan B. We don't know exactly why MON left because AVFC always craftily ensure their managers leave silently, Taylor Pt2 apart (in recent memory) and we have had nothing meaningful coming from the club. We can only guess, but the fact MON leaving was seemingly a surprise is mind boggling and not good management from those at the top. We seem to be a rudderless ship. That apart, that was a gutless display last night from most on the pitch, no excuses.
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Ellis was swift but how many were happy with John Gregory, Brian Little, SGT MkII at the time?
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Yes thanks fpr Davis 9m, Heskey 4m, Beye 2m and Petrov 7m...22m of waste!
your forgetting sidwell 5 mil, harewood 4 mil, shorey 5 mil (think we got 2 mil back) guzan 2.5 mil, carlos culler 7 mil (he ent that good?!) stewart downing 12 mil coker 8 mil (good player but never played).
65.5 mil wasted!!!!!
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The revisionists are up early this morning.
who's "fault" was it when we beat West Ham?
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That same squad of players, bar one, were in the top 6 last season, and were at Wembley twice. Managers come and go, it's how clubs respond to it that matters. Ellis - and I was no fan - always acted swiftly in appointments and seemed to have a plan B. We don't know exactly why MON left because AVFC always craftily ensure their managers leave silently, Taylor Pt2 apart (in recent memory) and we have had nothing meaningful coming from the club. We can only guess, but the fact MON leaving was seemingly a surprise is mind boggling and not good management from those at the top. We seem to be a rudderless ship. That apart, that was a gutless display last night from most on the pitch, no excuses.
Nail on the head.
Petrov even said in his post match interview that the uncertainty over the manager position was having a massive impact on the players and they wanted it sorted soon.
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As convenient as it is, we're going to have stope blaming the previous manager eventually. The only one's to blame for Sunday and last night's debacle are the players and KMac. My idea of getting back into a game is not throwing a striker out wide and a centre half up front. Sunday league tactics at best, not what you'd expect from a coach of a Premiership side.
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As convenient as it is, we're going to have stope blaming the previous manager eventually. The only one's to blame for Sunday and last night's debacle are the players and KMac. My idea of getting back into a game is not throwing a striker out wide and a centre half up front. Sunday league tactics at best, not what you'd expect from a coach of a Premiership side.
And why, then, is a coach with no managerial experience being forced into a position where he makes such basic mistakes?
MON is going to remain at blame for the wider turmoil at the club for a fair while yet, I'm afraid.
Manager and entire coaching staff gone five days before the start of the season. We now have no manager, we don't have enough coaches - they said last night, we physically do not have enough coaches to be coaching all the various teams at the moment - the transfer window is about to slam shut, we've had some duff results, and a chairman who has never appointed a football club manager in his life is being forced to find a replacement at short notice.
MON didn't directly cause the Newcastle debacle, and he didn't lose the match last night, but you'd have to be naive to think that these results aren't reflecting the utter chaos at the club at the moment. He really could not have caused much more damage than that if he'd tried.
Throw in the "performances" last night and last weekend of some of the very same expensive, high earning, unused players which he bought and was asked to do something about, refused, and left over, and it doesn't reflect too well on him.
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The revisionists are up early this morning.
who's "fault" was it when we beat West Ham?
My feelings entirely. At some point, maybe some people will agree that maybe MON not being that shower of shite's best mate wasn't necessarily a bad thing.
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A couple of points:-
Almost three weeks in I think we need to stop looking at the timing on MON's departure and more to the lack of a new man being appointed as our biggest problem right now.
Blame Martin for signing Beye, but blame K-Mac for playing him left back.
At 2-1 up you need to be professional and close the game out. We didn't. I don't think K-Mac left the dugout to start shouting instructions, which is a problem and added to our downfall.
Gabby going off hurt us and for all the moaning I think we'd have had a different outcome had he stayed on.
The same squad, bar 1 player swap, finished 6th last season, so the players are there to do better than this.
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Almost three weeks in I think we need to stop looking at the timing on MON's departure and more to the lack of a new man being appointed as our biggest problem right now.
Which ignores the fact that had he not left when he did, we wouldn't be trying to appoint a new manager at the worst time possible in the first place
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I didn't like O'Neill as a person and said so a few times on here even before he did the dirty on us. I always thought he had a nasty, selfish, vindictive side to him. Events have certainly lent support to that theory.
I can't make my mind up about the squad he left us though. At first I thought it strong enough to still challenge at the top end, even without Milner, if handled well. However the more I think about it the more I think O'Neill's MO was based on signing average to good players he could control, and then try to get more than the sum of their parts out of them. It's beginning to look like he did very well to get that group of players to 6th in 3 successive seasons. He is undoubtedly good at getting okay players to look better, but I sincerley doubt he could have got us any higher with those type of players and that kind of approach.
With a few injuries cropping up, and without O'Neill's ability to get more out of less, the squad suddenly looks a lot more "average" than the recent league finishes suggested.
The biggest indictment against him is that he seemed to deliberatley plan his walkout for a time when it would prevent us addressing the manager situation and improving on the squad. That is unforgiveabe and puts him up there with Mr Sugarbags and the man with Maradonna's shirt amongst the worst of Villa villains in my book.
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As convenient as it is, we're going to have stope blaming the previous manager eventually. The only one's to blame for Sunday and last night's debacle are the players and KMac. My idea of getting back into a game is not throwing a striker out wide and a centre half up front. Sunday league tactics at best, not what you'd expect from a coach of a Premiership side.
And why, then, is a coach with no managerial experience being forced into a position where he makes such basic mistakes?
MON is going to remain at blame for the wider turmoil at the club for a fair while yet, I'm afraid.
Manager and entire coaching staff gone five days before the start of the season. We now have no manager, we don't have enough coaches - they said last night, we physically do not have enough coaches to be coaching all the various teams at the moment - the transfer window is about to slam shut, we've had some duff results, and a chairman who has never appointed a football club manager in his life is being forced to find a replacement at short notice.
MON didn't directly cause the Newcastle debacle, and he didn't lose the match last night, but you'd have to be naive to think that these results aren't reflecting the utter chaos at the club at the moment. He really could not have caused much more damage than that if he'd tried.
Throw in the "performances" last night and last weekend of some of the very same expensive, high earning, unused players which he bought and was asked to do something about, refused, and left over, and it doesn't reflect too well on him.
Martin left at a bad time, we all get that. But do we hide behind that excuse or deal with it? Not having enough coaches is a problem caused by MON, but why not get someone like Staunton (previously worked with K-Mac) or Dean Saunders to come in on say a 1 month contract to ease the short term problem?
Once a new manager is appointed he'll still have a squad that finished 6th and reached a cup final to work with. That's when blaming MON should stop!!
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Unless I've missed something, we still don't know why O'Neil left. We do know the timing was poor to say the least, but until we know the full facts condemming the previous manager is a waste of time.
If it was a petulant act at not being given what he wanted well, maybe a proportion of the abuse on here is justified and O'Neil must take some of the blame for the state that the club is in.
On the other hand, if he left on a matter of principle then the timing is irrelevant.
By the way, if we are looking for a good manager that doesn't make bad buys, that doesn't make tactical cock-ups, that doesn't have a huge ego, that doesn't make mistakes then we are wasting are time.
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As convenient as it is, we're going to have stope blaming the previous manager eventually. The only one's to blame for Sunday and last night's debacle are the players and KMac. My idea of getting back into a game is not throwing a striker out wide and a centre half up front. Sunday league tactics at best, not what you'd expect from a coach of a Premiership side.
And why, then, is a coach with no managerial experience being forced into a position where he makes such basic mistakes?
MON is going to remain at blame for the wider turmoil at the club for a fair while yet, I'm afraid.
Manager and entire coaching staff gone five days before the start of the season. We now have no manager, we don't have enough coaches - they said last night, we physically do not have enough coaches to be coaching all the various teams at the moment - the transfer window is about to slam shut, we've had some duff results, and a chairman who has never appointed a football club manager in his life is being forced to find a replacement at short notice.
MON didn't directly cause the Newcastle debacle, and he didn't lose the match last night, but you'd have to be naive to think that these results aren't reflecting the utter chaos at the club at the moment. He really could not have caused much more damage than that if he'd tried.
Throw in the "performances" last night and last weekend of some of the very same expensive, high earning, unused players which he bought and was asked to do something about, refused, and left over, and it doesn't reflect too well on him.
Perhaps it's time for certain people to put their unadulterated hatred for MON, which was there well before he left, aside and have a look at the bigger picture.
Firstly, we still dont know the facts. My gut feeling is that MON was told no more transfers til we sell or something along those lines and decided to walk.
I personally feel that he should have seen out the season with us considering it was his squad that he built.
But what doesnt add up is why he didnt leave in May. The only thing that makes sense to me was that there were assurances made that funds were there to buy players and then come AUgust no players had been sold and therefore no transfer funds.
Anyway, that is all conjecture. We may never find out the full story. But to 100% blame MON and absolve Randy & the board makes no sense to me.
MON left because he didnt think he could take us any further. It was a decision for himself, as is his right to do.
He keft us with a squad of players who had established themselves in the top 6 of the league and legitimate contenders for top 4.
Without adding to the squad it is unlikely we will maintain that.
However, the squad he left SHOULD NOT lose 6-0 to Newcastle away and throw away leads twice at home in Europe in the Preliminary Rounds.
MON's departure and timing thereof, will affect our chances of challenging for top 4, especially given the slow response to appointing the new man.
It is not an excuse for this week's debacle.
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I didn't like him as a person either.
He's a 'smoke and mirrors' man, never gives a straight answer.
Always litigating, always bigger than the club, what with his rolling fucking contracts.
Well rid.
Timing has all the hallmarks of the kind of man he is.
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Perhaps it's time for certain people to put their unadulterated hatred for MON, which was there well before he left, aside and have a look at the bigger picture.
Who is that referring to?
Not me, I hope, as you're miles from the truth.
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I didn't like O'Neill as a person and said so a few times on here even before he did the dirty on us. I always thought he had a nasty, selfish, vindictive side to him. Events have certainly lent support to that theory.
I can't make my mind up about the squad he left us though. At first I thought it strong enough to still challenge at the top end, even without Milner, if handled well. However the more I think about it the more I think O'Neill's MO was based on signing average to good players he could control, and then try to get more than the sum of their parts out of them. It's beginning to look like he did very well to get that group of players to 6th in 3 successive seasons. He is undoubtedly good at getting okay players to look better, but I sincerley doubt he could have got us any higher with those type of players and that kind of approach. [b/]
With a few injuries cropping up, and without O'Neill's ability to get more out of less, the squad suddenly looks a lot more "average" than the recent league finishes suggested.
The biggest indictment against him is that he seemed to deliberatley plan his walkout for a time when it would prevent us addressing the manager situation and improving on the squad. That is unforgiveabe and puts him up there with Mr Sugarbags and the man with Maradonna's shirt amongst the worst of Villa villains in my book.
I think you've probably summed up MON's reign there in a way. He signed solid if unspectacular players that he felt would do a job for him. Which to a large extent they did.
Take last season, 2 games to go and we were well in the hunt for 4th. We were probably just a 20-goal a season striker away.
So now you look at the squad and wonder can anyone get out of them what MON did?
I'm not too hopeful.
I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
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i wanted him to go but id still like to hear his side of what made him decide to leave when he did-i think theres maybe more than meets the eye.
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but why not get someone like Staunton (previously worked with K-Mac) or Dean Saunders to come in on say a 1 month contract to ease the short term problem?
Please tell me your joking or under the influence of some seriously strong drugs!
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Almost three weeks in I think we need to stop looking at the timing on MON's departure and more to the lack of a new man being appointed as our biggest problem right now.
Which ignores the fact that had he not left when he did, we wouldn't be trying to appoint a new manager at the worst time possible in the first place
The longer we are without a new manager, the weaker the timing argument becomes. 5 days before the season starts means it's difficult, but three weeks later you've had time to make up for that difficulty.
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Perhaps it's time for certain people to put their unadulterated hatred for MON, which was there well before he left, aside and have a look at the bigger picture.
Who is that referring to?
Not me, I hope, as you're miles from the truth.
Not specifically you, even though you are one of the more voiciferous ones in putting the blame 100% at MON's door and from memory you were not a particularly big fan of his when he was at the club.
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Perhaps it's time for certain people to put their unadulterated hatred for MON, which was there well before he left, aside and have a look at the bigger picture.
Who is that referring to?
Not me, I hope, as you're miles from the truth.
Not specifically you, even though you are one of the more voiciferous ones in putting the blame 100% at MON's door and from memory you were not a particularly big fan of his when he was at the club.
I didn't like his football, but said hundreds of times I didn't want him sacked (in fact, I argued that sacking him would be madness), I wanted him to sort it out.
I am one of the more vociferous ones in pointing out the shit he's left us in, you're right there.
Unadulterated hatred, though? That's ridiculous.
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when you consider 3 seasons in to Mon's reign some fans were still blaming previous managers for the squads shortcomings, I find it a tad hypocritical that those same people are calling for us to stop blaming a turncoat little shit for leaving us with a reserve team coach who now most see isn't up to it.
The mess the fool left behind will take some time to sort, seasons, especially if Randy does not choose wisely.
To try and shift the blame on to the owners is both pathetic and an afront to a man left with a no win situation and its all thanks to one tiny self centred man.
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However, the squad he left SHOULD NOT lose 6-0 to Newcastle away and throw away leads twice at home in Europe in the Preliminary Rounds.
MON's departure and timing thereof, will affect our chances of challenging for top 4, especially given the slow response to appointing the new man.
It is not an excuse for this week's debacle.
100% agree, MON left at a shocking time for us but 6-0 and Rapid Vienna collapse is no excuse. They are supposed to be professionals for fecks sake.
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It should be pointed out that virtually the same squad of players got knocked out by the same team at the same point in the season last year so if MON had been here it might not have made a blind bit of difference!!
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Almost three weeks in I think we need to stop looking at the timing on MON's departure and more to the lack of a new man being appointed as our biggest problem right now.
Which ignores the fact that had he not left when he did, we wouldn't be trying to appoint a new manager at the worst time possible in the first place
The longer we are without a new manager, the weaker the timing argument becomes. 5 days before the season starts means it's difficult, but three weeks later you've had time to make up for that difficulty.
Can't agree more John...
Especially when it doesn't seem as if there are any managers presently in jobs who we are looking to take over.
If it was someone like, Jol, who was the first choice and there was bargaining to be done with the employers, then you could understand.
But it is most likely someon that is out of work....how many rounds of interview are they planning???
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
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I've seen plenty of managers come and go. They've gone before, during and after the season. It's a fact of life for football clubs and they just have to deal with it. Wallowing in self pity doesn't help and threads like this are just making excuses. We need some leadership and we're not getting it. Not from Lerner, not from Faulkner and not from MacDonald or the senior players.
Do something about it.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
There's no evidence that he refused to get rid of them, it's just the salesman we employed to do it wasn't up to it.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
Or a pragmatic man who thought I can't bring this team any further, time to hand it over to someone else?
The ideal time to do this was May of course. Why didn't he? Only thing that adds up is that he was given assurances and these were reneged on.
Anyway, this debate of whether MON is at fault doesnt do much for our current plight. However, if there is a grain of truth to my theory (and I freely admit that's all it is) it has major implications for the future of the club.
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but why not get someone like Staunton (previously worked with K-Mac) or Dean Saunders to come in on say a 1 month contract to ease the short term problem?
Please tell me your joking or under the influence of some seriously strong drugs!
I wish!
Just throwing a name out there to illustrate the lack of coaches is an issue they could have addressed short term.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
Or a pragmatic man who thought I can't bring this team any further, time to hand it over to someone else?
The ideal time to do this was May of course. Why didn't he? Only thing that adds up is that he was given assurances and these were reneged on.
Anyway, this debate of whether MON is at fault doesnt do much for our current plight. However, if there is a grain of truth to my theory (and I freely admit that's all it is) it has major implications for the future of the club.
The General said that on the Saturday, MON and Randy spoke, everything was fine, Randy then flew back to the US, only to be told on the Monday that MON had bailed.
If he had his reasons for going - can't take us further / whatever - then let alone wonder what happened between May and August, you've got to wonder what happened between Saturday and Monday.
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People walk out of jobs at the most innopportune moments all the time. Unfortunate but it happens.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
There's no evidence that he refused to get rid of them, it's just the salesman we employed to do it wasn't up to it.
You say there's no evidence he refused to get rid of them, but then say it is the fault of the "salesman" - something else for which - by the same measure - there is no evidence.
Maybe they're so rubbish that nobody wanted to buy them? Evidence of last night certainly seems to back that up for some of them.
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People walk out of jobs at the most innopportune moments all the time. Unfortunate but it happens.
You expect that those left will take charge of the rudder though and not leave the ship drifting for three or four weeks.
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Perhaps it's time for certain people to put their unadulterated hatred for MON, which was there well before he left, aside and have a look at the bigger picture.
Who is that referring to?
Not me, I hope, as you're miles from the truth.
Not specifically you, even though you are one of the more voiciferous ones in putting the blame 100% at MON's door and from memory you were not a particularly big fan of his when he was at the club.
I didn't like his football, but said hundreds of times I didn't want him sacked (in fact, I argued that sacking him would be madness), I wanted him to sort it out.
I am one of the more vociferous ones in pointing out the shit he's left us in, you're right there.
Unadulterated hatred, though? That's ridiculous.
Fair enough Paulie...dont like getting into individual duels with posters..especially when you are but a name on a screen to me (albiet one with ridiculous white sideburns!)
But you know yourself there were a number of posters who hated MON when he was here and most of them now have leapt on his departure to blame him for everything since and will for a long time to come, I reckon.
I'm not happy with the timing of his departure, but without knowing the full story I don't think we can come down too hard on either side.
What we can expect is for the people at the helm to be decisive and unless there is someone very special named on Monday, with a few new glossy signings I wont be happy with how they have reacted.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
Or a pragmatic man who thought I can't bring this team any further, time to hand it over to someone else?
The ideal time to do this was May of course. Why didn't he? Only thing that adds up is that he was given assurances and these were reneged on.
Anyway, this debate of whether MON is at fault doesnt do much for our current plight. However, if there is a grain of truth to my theory (and I freely admit that's all it is) it has major implications for the future of the club.
The General said that on the Saturday, MON and Randy spoke, everything was fine, Randy then flew back to the US, only to be told on the Monday that MON had bailed.
If he had his reasons for going - can't take us further / whatever - then let alone wonder what happened between May and August, you've got to wonder what happened between Saturday and Monday.
Again, I do wonder....and unless we hear MON's side to the story we may never know. I'm not doubting the General or Randy's integrity but there are 2 sides to every story.
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I've seen plenty of managers come and go. They've gone before, during and after the season. It's a fact of life for football clubs and they just have to deal with it. Wallowing in self pity doesn't help and threads like this are just making excuses. We need some leadership and we're not getting it. Not from Lerner, not from Faulkner and not from MacDonald or the senior players.
Do something about it.
This I do agree with - the need to show strong leadership and sort it out at the earliest possible opportunity.
The story yesterday re KM getting first dibs and first interview but not till after Everton, after which they would look at interviewing other people .... that, I found quite worrying, as it looks like they think they've got all the time in the world.
This is Randy's first real test. He needs to not let us down.
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RL did address the problem short term Km the one remaining coach got the job.
I also thought General K had suggested mon didn't seem keen to unload several players in one of his comments post Mon's departure.
Strange how criticising Mon and in time being proved nearly 100% right gets you branded as hating him, which I most certainly don't, yet still trying to shift blame off him now he's been found out doesn't make you one of his idolisers.
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I've seen plenty of managers come and go. They've gone before, during and after the season. It's a fact of life for football clubs and they just have to deal with it. Wallowing in self pity doesn't help and threads like this are just making excuses. We need some leadership and we're not getting it. Not from Lerner, not from Faulkner and not from MacDonald or the senior players.
Do something about it.
We haven't had too many managers come and go since the transfer windows were introduced though have we? Certainly none that have left mid-season or so near to the end of the window. In the past any new manager would have been able to bring players in straight away, any time during the season. Thanks largely to O'Neill we are stuck with what we have until January by the looks of it. Although Randy and Co. have to share the blame, they should have appointed someone by now.
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If he had his reasons for going - can't take us further / whatever - then let alone wonder what happened between May and August, you've got to wonder what happened between Saturday and Monday.
Paul Faulkner (sp)?. I have a hunch, and that is all, that there was a clash between him and MON over the Milner deal
My theory is that MON didn't want Stephen Ireland and was told he had to have him, and at that flounced out. The club needed the money after the lack of sales during the summer and this may have been thrown at MON in an effort to push through the deal.
And as for MON being called a "fool" in a post further back, this just shows how people have lost all perspective on this issue.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
There's no evidence that he refused to get rid of them, it's just the salesman we employed to do it wasn't up to it.
You say there's no evidence he refused to get rid of them, but then say it is the fault of the "salesman" - something else for which - by the same measure - there is no evidence.
Maybe they're so rubbish that nobody wanted to buy them? Evidence of last night certainly seems to back that up for some of them.
I was using salesman as shorthand for the club as a whole being unable to shift them to refute the idea that O'Neill somehow stopped them from leaving. Young and Sidwell were both close to moves and Shorey did go.
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And as for MON being called a "fool" in a post further back, this just shows how people have lost all perspective on this issue.
That's true. One thing O'Neill definitely isn't is a fool.
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I cant help feeling that MON knew we were that player or 2 short to take us to the next level and when he was not allowed get them he walked.
Like a spoilt children wanting new toys but there's no room left in his cupboard, he refused to get rid of the ones he no longer used and insisted his parents move to a bigger house with a bigger cupboard to store his old toys.
Or a pragmatic man who thought I can't bring this team any further, time to hand it over to someone else?
The ideal time to do this was May of course. Why didn't he? Only thing that adds up is that he was given assurances and these were reneged on.
Anyway, this debate of whether MON is at fault doesnt do much for our current plight. However, if there is a grain of truth to my theory (and I freely admit that's all it is) it has major implications for the future of the club.
The General said that on the Saturday, MON and Randy spoke, everything was fine, Randy then flew back to the US, only to be told on the Monday that MON had bailed.
If he had his reasons for going - can't take us further / whatever - then let alone wonder what happened between May and August, you've got to wonder what happened between Saturday and Monday.
If I had to put my own 'reading between the lines' take on it, this is what I think happened:-
Martin knew of buy to sell in May, and most likely before, and accepted it. Fastforward to August and he's getting frustrated that the players to go are still here and that's stopping him from buying. This is when his football head starts overiding his business sense as he wants to continue building the side up and improve it. I think he could deal with Randy and had respect for him, but not so much for Faulkner. He's frustrated that his plans are being blocked and maybe Faulkner wasn't playing up to his ego, which is understandable being a non-football person and unused to volatile managers whose decisions don't always marry with good business sense. It all boils over, maybe something to do with the Milner deal.
No conspiracy, no trying to shaft the club and no moving of goal posts. Just the breakdown of a relationship that ultimately lead to Martin deciding he could no longer take the club forward as he wanted. As I said before, both parties are probably to blame and both at fault for not realising there was a problem and addressing it earlier.
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Randy does have all the time he wants surely especially as there is no game for 2 weeks.
The longer he takes the more the possibility he will get the right man at the right price.
Of course if he still goes for a lame option after taking so long, then he will deserve every criticism he gets
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RL did address the problem short term Km the one remaining coach got the job.
I also thought General K had suggested mon didn't seem keen to unload several players in one of his comments post Mon's departure.
Strange how criticising Mon and in time being proved nearly 100% right gets you branded as hating him, which I most certainly don't, yet still trying to shift blame off him now he's been found out doesn't make you one of his idolisers.
Firstly, didnt MON make 6 of those players available for transfer at the start of the summer?
Secondly, how have you been proved 100% right in your criticism of him? If anything this week has shown that by getting this group of players to 6th last year means that he was under-appreciated by some.
Incidentally, if Ireland was forced on him by the board, I can understand why he would walk.
I think Ireland is a great signing, but if MON didnt want him and he was forced to take him, I dont think he had much choice.
Again, it's all conjecture.
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you are right to criticise my use of the word fool to descibe Mon.
I should have said twat
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Gutted as I am; I really, REALLY couldn't afford two or three away games in Europe before Christmas. My credit card don't need it so you did me a favour Villa.
I just hope I'm still young enought to fully enjoy our next European campaign ::)
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I often said he was a lucky manager and had done well to achieve 6th so often but I and man others have been shown to have sussed him out from day one, even down to the manner of his departure.
But that's now water under the bridge he ran off and left us in a mess, he wasn't sacked, he didn't leave a squad full of experienced top players after such a big spend and it now seems he didn't have the backing of all his players, so why still try to make him out to be what he blatantly was not.
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you are right to criticise my use of the word fool to descibe Mon.
I should have said twat
I hope we appoint another twat then, one that improves the club season on season and gets us to Wembley for a major final.
It would appear MON's decision to walk out has wiped the previous four years from some peoples memories.
And I say this not as a MON fan or Lerner fan or anybody else for that matter, but as a Villa fan. And as such I went the best available people working at the club from the chairman to the tea lady regardless of who they are. Without MON we are in a worse position from a football point of view, unless we bring in someone who is an improvement, and from the names touted, that is not very likely. And until both sides of the story have been revealed I will reserve judgement on MON's decision to walk.
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If people want to slag MON for leaving then fair enough. But conclusions, either right or wrong, about his character have nothing to do with his ability as a football manager.
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Incidentally, if Ireland was forced on him by the board, I can understand why he would walk.
I think Ireland is a great signing, but if MON didnt want him and he was forced to take him, I dont think he had much choice.
Again, it's all conjecture.
From the comments made by Ireland after he'd signed, he was well aware of Villa's interest long before MON bolted. The refusal by the board to buy Aiden McGready I think was the turning point. The fact that MON never bothered to phone Randy when he resigned tells you everything you need to know about the final days of their relationship. I'm guessing here but I can imagine Randy telling MON to speak with Paul and MON refusing to acknowledge Faulkner as his boss.
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I often said he was a lucky manager and had done well to achieve 6th so often but I and man others have been shown to have sussed him out from day one, even down to the manner of his departure.
But that's now water under the bridge he ran off and left us in a mess, he wasn't sacked, he didn't leave a squad full of experienced top players after such a big spend and it now seems he didn't have the backing of all his players, so why still try to make him out to be what he blatantly was not.
You're going to have to explain that for me...sussed him out from day one??
Are you implying that he had some masterplan to come to Villa, manage the team for 4 years just so he could fuck up our 5th season??
As for the lucky manager comment, it's a load of bull.
Lucky, is if you have a 1 season flash in the pan success.
Steadily building for 4 years is not lucky.
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[quote author=jonzy85 link=topic=39986.msg1567644#msg1567644 date=1282903243
Incidentally, if Ireland was forced on him by the board, I can understand why he would walk.
I think Ireland is a great signing, but if MON didnt want him and he was forced to take him, I dont think he had much choice.
Again, it's all conjecture.
From the comments made by Ireland after he'd signed, he was well aware of Villa's interest long before MON bolted. The refusal by the board to buy Aiden McGready I think was the turning point. The fact that MON never bothered to phone Randy when he resigned tells you everything you need to know about the final days of their relationship. I'm guessing here but I can imagine Randy telling MON to speak with Paul and MON refusing to acknowledge Faulkner as his boss.
[/quote]
I would say you are not too far away from the truth...although I cant see him throwing his lot in over McGeady!
But if your scenario is close to the truth, would you not accept that the blame has to be apportioned to both MON and the board for letting a situation develop to the point where it did.
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You're going to have to explain that for me...
Pray to whatever Gods you have that he does not - it'll only confuse you more!
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If people want to slag MON for leaving then fair enough. But conclusions, either right or wrong, about his character have nothing to do with his ability as a football manager.
Indeed not. I always got the feeling that his motivational skills were his key asset. He showed over recent seasons that he is rather limited as a football manager, and while I appreciate that his first 3 years at the club could be seen as a success, last season showed that he wasn't good enough to make that final step into the top 4. Despite finishing 6th and 2 trips to Wembley, we were inches away from 4th and failed due to a number of factors (one dimensional football, players in wrong position, lack of rotation etc)
When MON first arrived I remember him grumbling that Doug had questioned his tactics and he said that he wouldn't expect to explain himself to a Chairman again. My interpretation of the situation was that he was given carte blanche (and significant funds) to get into the top 4, and when he cocked up was reigned in. His ego would not take having to explain himself to his employers about target signings etc and his response was to tell every one of us to f*ck off, despite all of the support which he's had.
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you are right to criticise my use of the word fool to descibe Mon.
I should have said twat
I hope we appoint another twat then, one that improves the club season on season and gets us to Wembley for a major final.
It would appear MON's decision to walk out has wiped the previous four years from some peoples memories.
And I say this not as a MON fan or Lerner fan or anybody else for that matter, but as a Villa fan. And as such I went the best available people working at the club from the chairman to the tea lady regardless of who they are. Without MON we are in a worse position from a football point of view, unless we bring in someone who is an improvement, and from the names touted, that is not very likely. And until both sides of the story have been revealed I will reserve judgement on MON's decision to walk.
Couldn't agree more with Nev. His analysis is measured, sensible and spot-on. Our club is crying out for a "twat". Problem is they are a rare breed amongst managers. I could never understand fans moaning when the club was ticking along nicely and as stable as it had been for years. There's nowt as queer as folk I would say.
A message to Randy: Find us a twat - and quick!
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Incidentally, if Ireland was forced on him by the board, I can understand why he would walk.
I think Ireland is a great signing, but if MON didnt want him and he was forced to take him, I dont think he had much choice.
Again, it's all conjecture.
From the comments made by Ireland after he'd signed, he was well aware of Villa's interest long before MON bolted. The refusal by the board to buy Aiden McGready I think was the turning point. The fact that MON never bothered to phone Randy when he resigned tells you everything you need to know about the final days of their relationship. I'm guessing here but I can imagine Randy telling MON to speak with Paul and MON refusing to acknowledge Faulkner as his boss.
I would say you are not too far away from the truth...although I cant see him throwing his lot in over McGeady!
But if your scenario is close to the truth, would you not accept that the blame has to be apportioned to both MON and the board for letting a situation develop to the point where it did.
You're basically asking me to blame the board for appointing Paul Faulkner.
MON seemed happy to deal directly with Randy but he never appeared to accept that Paul Faulkner was his boss. There was a comment a few months ago when MON stated he had a great relationship with Randy and an okayish relationship with Faulkner. From that day on, I knew he wasn't happy with the new set up. He's a very proud/egotistical man and the thought of him reporting to a 30 year old, no matter how smart, was completely beneath him. It was only ever going to end in tears. His final comment about how it may have been different if Randy had been down the corridor, just strengthens the argument.
Should I blame the board for appointing Faulkner? I don't know, should I?
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My own hypothesis is that MON was told at the start of the summer that we were a sell to buy club. With the Milner sale and McGeady not coming, MON was told we are a sell club. Redrawn boundaries, MON walks and we are in the shit.
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My own hypothesis is that MON was told at the start of the summer that we were a sell to buy club. With the Milner sale and McGeady not coming, MON was told we are a sell club. Redrawn boundaries, MON walks and we are in the shit.
At the start of the summer Randy told the press Milner was not for sale. The "sell to buy" came from MON who was probably nervous at the values we would be getting the deadwood of the wage bill and in hindsight probably realising he's over paid for them and given them salaries that would make it very hard to move. His only hope was that Randy would take a hit on the loss and brush it under the carpet and still give him fresh money to spend.
Didn't the General come out with something in May/June about "admitting to our mistakes, learning from them and moving on"? It seems MON couldn't bring himself to do the first two and chose the latter.
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I think it's got nothing to do with transfer fees and everything to do with wages. The finances would have been there for McGeady - had we been able to shift some of the expensive deadwood. At the moment, we have a wage bill in thorough disarray, and we simply cannot afford to put another high-salary player on it at the moment.
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martin o'neill vindictively and selfishly left 5 days before the season started so to cause maxiumum damage to our season, so that his media knobend mates like oliver holte can then proclaim that we were wrong not to allow him to spunk more money on shite like cuellar, heskey, sidwell, petrov, beye, etc, (at the same time, criticising the likes of portsmouth and leeds for financially gambling), and in the process, protect his own reputation that is largely built down to morons from the sun and the mirror... all respect for that cowardly self absorbed cretin disappeared the day he picked his timing to cause maximum damage and left us right in the shit...
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martin o'neill vindictively and selfishly left 5 days before the season started so to cause maxiumum damage to our season, so that his media knobend mates like oliver holte can then proclaim that we were wrong not to allow him to spunk more money on shite like cuellar, heskey, sidwell, petrov, beye, etc, (at the same time, criticising the likes of portsmouth and leeds for financially gambling), and in the process, protect his own reputation that is largely built down to morons from the sun and the mirror... all respect for that cowardly self absorbed cretin disappeared the day he picked his timing to cause maximum damage and left us right in the shit...
OK, that's the balanced view sorted. Now for some extreme opinions.....
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Everyone is drawing their own conclusions based on their own theories. No-one knows anything for definite, except that O'Neill walked out at THAT time. All summising must therefore start from the one given fact.
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martin o'neill vindictively and selfishly left 5 days before the season started so to cause maxiumum damage to our season, so that his media knobend mates like oliver holte can then proclaim that we were wrong not to allow him to spunk more money on shite like cuellar, heskey, sidwell, petrov, beye, etc, (at the same time, criticising the likes of portsmouth and leeds for financially gambling), and in the process, protect his own reputation that is largely built down to morons from the sun and the mirror... all respect for that cowardly self absorbed cretin disappeared the day he picked his timing to cause maximum damage and left us right in the shit...
Which for those requiring an explanation to my use of the term twat, is a far better summation of the man.
Not that for one second do I expect anyone to accept it, its always hard when the emperor is found out and you are left totally embarrassed for supporting him even though he was without clothes:)
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Malcolm, I think there's a thread in Off Topic that you havent posted on yet, telling everyone how fucking clever you are.
No one likes a smart arse
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Whether you are a MON fan or not, you cannot argue that the timing of his departure was disastrous, whatever the reasons for him leaving.
I would also suggest that under him we wouldn't have had the cocking we got at Newcastle.
That seems balanced!
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At the end of the day, if we're going to carry on blaming MON every time we lose a game, it's not going to get us anywhere. It's all a bit pointless. We need to look forward. We need to suss out why we played West Ham off the park with some of the best flowing football i've seen down there for a while, only to see us fall apart in the last two games. This is what should be worrying us. We can't change what's happened, we can only influence the rest of the season.
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i supported martin o'neill, albeit wasnt adverse to criticising him when i felt it was needed, but after what he has done, i have no respect whatsoever for him now, and all the good work he did, has been completely undone...
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Malcolm, I think there's a thread in Off Topic that you havent posted on yet, telling everyone how fucking clever you are.
No one likes a smart arse
No I gathered that without going on to any thread
Thanks for the advice though
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Incidentally, if Ireland was forced on him by the board, I can understand why he would walk.
I think Ireland is a great signing, but if MON didnt want him and he was forced to take him, I dont think he had much choice.
Again, it's all conjecture.
From the comments made by Ireland after he'd signed, he was well aware of Villa's interest long before MON bolted. The refusal by the board to buy Aiden McGready I think was the turning point. The fact that MON never bothered to phone Randy when he resigned tells you everything you need to know about the final days of their relationship. I'm guessing here but I can imagine Randy telling MON to speak with Paul and MON refusing to acknowledge Faulkner as his boss.
I would say you are not too far away from the truth...although I cant see him throwing his lot in over McGeady!
But if your scenario is close to the truth, would you not accept that the blame has to be apportioned to both MON and the board for letting a situation develop to the point where it did.
You're basically asking me to blame the board for appointing Paul Faulkner.
MON seemed happy to deal directly with Randy but he never appeared to accept that Paul Faulkner was his boss. There was a comment a few months ago when MON stated he had a great relationship with Randy and an okayish relationship with Faulkner. From that day on, I knew he wasn't happy with the new set up. He's a very proud/egotistical man and the thought of him reporting to a 30 year old, no matter how smart, was completely beneath him. It was only ever going to end in tears. His final comment about how it may have been different if Randy had been down the corridor, just strengthens the argument.
Should I blame the board for appointing Faulkner? I don't know, should I?
Also bear in mind that before Paul Faulkner took the job we had two previous chief execs both of whom had hasty, unexplained departures. Did they too struggle to work with our manager?
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If I had to put my own 'reading between the lines' take on it, this is what I think happened:-
Martin knew of buy to sell in May, and most likely before, and accepted it. Fastforward to August and he's getting frustrated that the players to go are still here and that's stopping him from buying. This is when his football head starts overiding his business sense as he wants to continue building the side up and improve it. I think he could deal with Randy and had respect for him, but not so much for Faulkner. He's frustrated that his plans are being blocked and maybe Faulkner wasn't playing up to his ego, which is understandable being a non-football person and unused to volatile managers whose decisions don't always marry with good business sense. It all boils over, maybe something to do with the Milner deal.
No conspiracy, no trying to shaft the club and no moving of goal posts. Just the breakdown of a relationship that ultimately lead to Martin deciding he could no longer take the club forward as he wanted. As I said before, both parties are probably to blame and both at fault for not realising there was a problem and addressing it earlier.
I'm with you pretty much all the way until the last sentence. MON chose to walk. Even if we were to share the blame, the larger part of it must remain with MON. He knew he was leaving us in a very difficult situation.
That, however, does not excuse the subsequent poor leadership shown by the club.
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On a more cheerful note, I've just been to the Traditional Sweet Shop in Knowle and am gorging myself on pick 'n mix, Mega drumsticks and Vimto chew bars. Shit, my mouth has just started bleeding.