Aston Villa v AZ Alkmaar Post-Match Thread

[Edvard Remberg]

This is now officially decided as ChatGPT says following:

"You:
If a player deliberately heads the ball away from the goal line, a player who no longer is offside, but was offside prior to the headed save, then gets the ball - is he offside, or is he not offside as it is a new situation

ChatGPT:

In the scenario you described, if a player who was initially in an offside position becomes onside because the ball is deliberately played by an opponent (in this case, headed away from the goal line), and then they receive the ball, they are not considered offside.

The Laws of the Game state that a player cannot be offside if they receive the ball directly from a deliberate play by an opponent. In this case, the headed clearance by the opponent constitutes a deliberate play on the ball, and any player, including one who was previously in an offside position, can legally play the ball without being penalized for offside.

So, if a player is offside initially but then becomes onside due to a deliberate play by an opponent (such as a headed clearance), they are free to receive and play the ball without any offside violation. It is indeed considered a new situation, and the player's offside position from the previous phase of play is no longer relevant."

By defintion of humanity, ChatGPT can't be wrong.

[Edvard Remberg]

Douglush Lew-eesh

I await Mark or Gary's correction - but isn't that a pretty accurate recreaction of how is would be pronounced in Brazilian Portuguese?

Yes it is correct

[PeterWithe]

For those not there, this was the Charlie Aitken flag, not sure if the tv showed it.

[Percy McCarthy]

This is now officially decided as ChatGPT says following:

"You:
If a player deliberately heads the ball away from the goal line, a player who no longer is offside, but was offside prior to the headed save, then gets the ball - is he offside, or is he not offside as it is a new situation

ChatGPT:

In the scenario you described, if a player who was initially in an offside position becomes onside because the ball is deliberately played by an opponent (in this case, headed away from the goal line), and then they receive the ball, they are not considered offside.

The Laws of the Game state that a player cannot be offside if they receive the ball directly from a deliberate play by an opponent. In this case, the headed clearance by the opponent constitutes a deliberate play on the ball, and any player, including one who was previously in an offside position, can legally play the ball without being penalized for offside.

So, if a player is offside initially but then becomes onside due to a deliberate play by an opponent (such as a headed clearance), they are free to receive and play the ball without any offside violation. It is indeed considered a new situation, and the player's offside position from the previous phase of play is no longer relevant."

By defintion of humanity, ChatGPT can't be wrong.

But the rules clearly state ‘unless it’s a save’ which it was.

[algy]

First European night for me since the 98-99 season, first game since Gerrard was in charge.

Think my dad was a bit frustrated at the lack of urgency at times. I didn't mind so much, I quite enjoy us holding on to the ball for ages. Didn't play amazingly, but it's the kind of game that we'd have lost last time I saw us in Europe. Instead going home with a smile on my face.

We seem to be so much more intelligent as a side now. You don't really see it on telly but the movement off the ball is fantastic. Quite easy to see why, when it clicks, we absolutely batter other teams.


The tribute to Charlie Aitken was wonderful.

[LeeB]

This is now officially decided as ChatGPT says following:

"You:
If a player deliberately heads the ball away from the goal line, a player who no longer is offside, but was offside prior to the headed save, then gets the ball - is he offside, or is he not offside as it is a new situation

ChatGPT:

In the scenario you described, if a player who was initially in an offside position becomes onside because the ball is deliberately played by an opponent (in this case, headed away from the goal line), and then they receive the ball, they are not considered offside.

The Laws of the Game state that a player cannot be offside if they receive the ball directly from a deliberate play by an opponent. In this case, the headed clearance by the opponent constitutes a deliberate play on the ball, and any player, including one who was previously in an offside position, can legally play the ball without being penalized for offside.

So, if a player is offside initially but then becomes onside due to a deliberate play by an opponent (such as a headed clearance), they are free to receive and play the ball without any offside violation. It is indeed considered a new situation, and the player's offside position from the previous phase of play is no longer relevant."

By defintion of humanity, ChatGPT can't be wrong.

I thought at the time they'd somehow not seen the clearance and thought Ollie's header had gone straight to our player.

The further incidents in the game only solidified that view, it must have been Ronnie Barker's 'Clarence' on VAR.

[Edvard Remberg]

It is the "save" definition - if player was in control, it no longer is a save, but a deliberate play. Rules.

"gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately played* the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

*‘Deliberate play’ (excluding deliberate handball) is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate;
gaining possession of the ball; or
clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)
If the pass, attempt to gain possession or clearance by the player in control of the ball is inaccurate or unsuccessful, this does not negate the fact that the player ‘deliberately played’ the ball.

The following criteria should be used, as appropriate, as indicators that a player was in control of the ball and, as a result, can be considered to have ‘deliberately played’ the ball:

The ball travelled from distance and the player had a clear view of it
The ball was not moving quickly
The direction of the ball was not unexpected
The player had time to coordinate their body movement, i.e. it was not a case of instinctive stretching or jumping, or a movement that achieved limited
contact/control
A ball moving on the ground is easier to play than a ball in the air
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area)."

This being the key bits:
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately played* the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

*‘Deliberate play’ (excluding deliberate handball) is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate;
gaining possession of the ball; or
clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)

[Martyn Smith]

So the Alkmaar defender's header was just a muffed clearance, it wasn't a stop on a ball travelling directly towards goal at the time? Sorry I don't recall now exactly what happened, although I don't remember a clearance from the line directly before Lenglet struck

[Edvard Remberg]

So the Alkmaar defender's header was just a muffed clearance, it wasn't a stop on a ball travelling directly towards goal at the time? Sorry I don't recall now exactly what happened, although I don't remember a clearance from the line directly before Lenglet struck

Yes, Ollie headed the ball, and the player saw the ball and headed it out (clearing the ball)

[Mister E]

for me, I found the game to be a hard watch. The time that Carlos spent on the ball before passing to Lenglet or Konsa just did my head in. And - yes - I get the fact that the oppo were not engaging with a higher press, but we seemed unwilling to move into space and launch quick passes into the likes of Diaby and Watkins. Likewise vs Forest.
Bailey - particularly first half - seemed to lose possession every time he had the ball and I was amazed to see Diaby get replaced rather than the aforementioned Jamaican. Tielemans played well in the main, and I was surprised he did not stay on the pitch.
We won: we move on.

[Martyn Smith]

Forgive me if I'm being spectacularly thick, but Watkins header is going in, isn't it? Therefore doesn't the AZ defender's headed clearance count as a save and, with Bailey being in an offside position at the point of Ollie's attempt, make the offside decision correct?

[Martyn Smith]

So the Alkmaar defender's header was just a muffed clearance, it wasn't a stop on a ball travelling directly towards goal at the time? Sorry I don't recall now exactly what happened, although I don't remember a clearance from the line directly before Lenglet struck

Yes, Ollie headed the ball, and the player saw the ball and headed it out (clearing the ball)

But Watkins' header is going in, so how come the AZ defender's clearing header doesn't count as a save? Confused of Caterham

[Martyn Smith]

This is now officially decided as ChatGPT says following:

"You:
If a player deliberately heads the ball away from the goal line, a player who no longer is offside, but was offside prior to the headed save, then gets the ball - is he offside, or is he not offside as it is a new situation

ChatGPT:

In the scenario you described, if a player who was initially in an offside position becomes onside because the ball is deliberately played by an opponent (in this case, headed away from the goal line), and then they receive the ball, they are not considered offside.

The Laws of the Game state that a player cannot be offside if they receive the ball directly from a deliberate play by an opponent. In this case, the headed clearance by the opponent constitutes a deliberate play on the ball, and any player, including one who was previously in an offside position, can legally play the ball without being penalized for offside.

So, if a player is offside initially but then becomes onside due to a deliberate play by an opponent (such as a headed clearance), they are free to receive and play the ball without any offside violation. It is indeed considered a new situation, and the player's offside position from the previous phase of play is no longer relevant."

By defintion of humanity, ChatGPT can't be wrong.

But the rules clearly state ‘unless it’s a save’ which it was.

Yes... I'm not misunderstanding this...

[Edvard Remberg]

Forgive me if I'm being spectacularly thick, but Tielemans header is going in, isn't it? Therefore doesn't the AZ defender's headed clearance count as a save and, with Bailey being in an offside position at the point of Youri's attempt, make the offside decision correct?

"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately played* the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

*‘Deliberate play’ (excluding deliberate handball) is when a player has control of the ball with the possibility of:

passing the ball to a team-mate;
gaining possession of the ball; or
clearing the ball (e.g. by kicking or heading it)"

Reading the rule, I see it as it is either a deliberate play or a deliberate save - they then define what is a deliberate play, which is what the defender did (ergo, not a deliberate save)

[coreyfeldman]

for me, I found the game to be a hard watch. The time that Carlos spent on the ball before passing to Lenglet or Konsa just did my head in. And - yes - I get the fact that the oppo were not engaging with a higher press, but we seemed unwilling to move into space and launch quick passes into the likes of Diaby and Watkins. Likewise vs Forest.
Bailey - particularly first half - seemed to lose possession every time he had the ball and I was amazed to see Diaby get replaced rather than the aforementioned Jamaican. Tielemans played well in the main, and I was surprised he did not stay on the pitch.
We won: we move on.

Diaby was almost a total passenger last night, and Bailey involved in almost everything that was dangerous or lead to a 'goal' last night. As frustrating as he is people forget that a lot

Edit - his goal involvement stats for us are very decent this season and we'd be several points less off without him