Aston Villa vs Newcastle United pre match thread

[PeterWithesShin]

None of this should detract from the fact that Newcastle getting relegated at Villa Park twice was funny as fuck, though.

Yeah, but let's be honest, it wasn't so funny when we managed a 'comedy' relegation (ie pitiful points count) ourselves not that long after.

Ultimately, it's when you go down and nobody bats an eyelid that you need to be worried.

Considering the second one mentioned for Newcastle was the season we went down it was still very funny. Mainly as we'd long accepted we were goners but they still thought they were staying up.

[Rory]

"Luck" & "karma" are merely labels we place on events that are always explainable somewhere down the line. Hitting the post is called "unlucky". But it isn't. Its just poor accuracy from the shooter. An incorrect red card is called "unlucky" for one side & lucky for the other, but its just poor refereeing. As for "karma", we as humans tend to see patterns in life. We like to think that something good happening to a good person is due to good karma, yet we ignore when bad things happen to those same good people. We like to think that bad things happen to bad people, yet we ignore when good things happen to bad people. And most of the time, we don't even notice. We sometimes count the hits, yet mostly ignore the misses. Its selection bias, statistical fallacy, whatever one wants to call it. Religious folk do it all the time. Its a "miracle" when Mrs. Johnson survives her car crash. Ignoring the fact that she got in the car crash in the first place...

Your angle on karma is filtered through a Judeo-Christian prioritisation of individual fortunes, so the whole post is about 'luck', not karma - which is fair enough.

(Glenn Hoddle is one of the worst things to happen to Western perceptions of karma.)

I tend to follow Rory's version of karma here. I don't think it needs to be tied to a particular god/life force/... - you can have a secular concept where you have some kind of indirect benefit from being nice to others, because overall it makes the environment/community you live in nicer.
Same applies to a load of religious concepts I find. You can easily have secular versions of the same morality tales of you particularly want them.


None of this should detract from the fact that Newcastle getting relegated at Villa Park twice was funny as fuck, though.

Absolutely. Karma is a complex and underexplored thing. It has more in common with quantum mechanics than with monotheistic systems of thought.

Unfortunately it's widely misrepresented, often by its own proponents.

[Rory]

None of this should detract from the fact that Newcastle getting relegated at Villa Park twice was funny as fuck, though.

Yeah, but let's be honest, it wasn't so funny when we managed a 'comedy' relegation (ie pitiful points count) ourselves not that long after.

Ultimately, it's when you go down and nobody bats an eyelid that you need to be worried.

Considering the second one mentioned for Newcastle was the season we went down it was still very funny. Mainly as we'd long accepted we were goners but they still thought they were staying up.

I think I found the second one funnier, if anything. The first time, they seemed genuinely shocked that anybody would laugh, but the second time they set out for revenge - and we were still the ones laughing.

[edgysatsuma89]

I just asked one of those 8 Balls that you shake 'Are Aston Villa lucky?' and it said 'maybe'. Make of that what you will.

[Rory]

I just asked one of those 8 Balls that you shake 'Are Aston Villa lucky?' and it said 'maybe'. Make of that what you will.

That 8 ball is a teasing prick.

[Drummond]

I just asked one of those 8 Balls that you shake 'Are Aston Villa lucky?' and it said 'maybe'. Make of that what you will.

That 8 ball is a teasing prick.

What are the chances of that?!

[FatSam]

None of this should detract from the fact that Newcastle getting relegated at Villa Park twice was funny as fuck, though.

Yeah, but let's be honest, it wasn't so funny when we managed a 'comedy' relegation (ie pitiful points count) ourselves not that long after.

Ultimately, it's when you go down and nobody bats an eyelid that you need to be worried.

Considering the second one mentioned for Newcastle was the season we went down it was still very funny. Mainly as we'd long accepted we were goners but they still thought they were staying up.

It wasn’t quite as funny when they sold three players that summer for £68m, and then got promoted at the first attempt.

[tomd2103]

Feels like a bit of a test this game.  Win this one and I think people and the media will sit up a bit and begin to take notice.

[PeterWithesShin]

Them getting relegated when they'd wanted to gloat will always be very very funny.

[Rory]

Them getting relegated when they'd wanted to gloat will always be very very funny.

Definitely. If subsequent events after more than a couple of weeks or so diminished enjoyment, football would be fucking miserable.

[purpletrousers]

Fuck my old boots, could somebody please start a punathon to stop the endless luck definitions?

You should be so lucky, lucky, lucky lucky.

[purpletrousers]

"Luck" & "karma" are merely labels we place on events that are always explainable somewhere down the line. Hitting the post is called "unlucky". But it isn't. Its just poor accuracy from the shooter. An incorrect red card is called "unlucky" for one side & lucky for the other, but its just poor refereeing. As for "karma", we as humans tend to see patterns in life. We like to think that something good happening to a good person is due to good karma, yet we ignore when bad things happen to those same good people. We like to think that bad things happen to bad people, yet we ignore when good things happen to bad people. And most of the time, we don't even notice. We sometimes count the hits, yet mostly ignore the misses. Its selection bias, statistical fallacy, whatever one wants to call it. Religious folk do it all the time. Its a "miracle" when Mrs. Johnson survives her car crash. Ignoring the fact that she got in the car crash in the first place...

Your angle on karma is filtered through a Judeo-Christian prioritisation of individual fortunes, so the whole post is about 'luck', not karma - which is fair enough.

(Glenn Hoddle is one of the worst things to happen to Western perceptions of karma.)

We are persisting in misusing the term karma which just means (deliberate) action.

The tremendous balls up Hoddle made (or was at most generous analysis misunderstood to make, costing him his England managers job - quite substantial karma vipaka (fruit of his action) there) was to see the principle in isolation and over attribute to it. Rather it being one of many laws inherent in the universe in operation at the same time.

So bad things happening to good people isn't precluded by the law of karma, though if we are open to looking at past actions across lifetimes, it'll take a pretty sophisticated consciousness to be able to discern the origin of the outcome.

Pleasing to see such thoughtful consideration Rory, including quantum physics. It never ceases to amaze me it was front page news that consciousness affects the behaviour of matter. 

Haven't followed the recent 'Universe Is Not Locally Real' stuff but imagine it aligns with Buddhist insubstantiality...


 

[Rory]

"Luck" & "karma" are merely labels we place on events that are always explainable somewhere down the line. Hitting the post is called "unlucky". But it isn't. Its just poor accuracy from the shooter. An incorrect red card is called "unlucky" for one side & lucky for the other, but its just poor refereeing. As for "karma", we as humans tend to see patterns in life. We like to think that something good happening to a good person is due to good karma, yet we ignore when bad things happen to those same good people. We like to think that bad things happen to bad people, yet we ignore when good things happen to bad people. And most of the time, we don't even notice. We sometimes count the hits, yet mostly ignore the misses. Its selection bias, statistical fallacy, whatever one wants to call it. Religious folk do it all the time. Its a "miracle" when Mrs. Johnson survives her car crash. Ignoring the fact that she got in the car crash in the first place...

Your angle on karma is filtered through a Judeo-Christian prioritisation of individual fortunes, so the whole post is about 'luck', not karma - which is fair enough.

(Glenn Hoddle is one of the worst things to happen to Western perceptions of karma.)

We are persisting in misusing the term karma which just means (deliberate) action.

The tremendous balls up Hoddle made (or was at most generous analysis misunderstood to make, costing him his England managers job - quite substantial karma vipaka (fruit of his action) there) was to see the principle in isolation and over attribute to it. Rather it being one of many laws inherent in the universe in operation at the same time.

So bad things happening to good people isn't precluded by the law of karma, though if we are open to looking at past actions across lifetimes, it'll take a pretty sophisticated consciousness to be able to discern the origin of the outcome.

Pleasing to see such thoughtful consideration Rory, including quantum physics. It never ceases to amaze me it was front page news that consciousness affects the behaviour of matter. 

Haven't followed the recent 'Universe Is Not Locally Real' stuff but imagine it aligns with Buddhist insubstantiality...

Absolutely spot on 🙂 but it is unsurprising that ideas which seem to contradict local empiricism struggle to find popular support.

I've studied it as much as a regular layman realistically can, and the idea of one thing existing simultaneously in discrete forms is still a headfuck.

[SamTheMouse]

What about an African swallow?

[Drummond]

What about an African swallow?

Doesn't make an African summer.