Forest 1 v Aston Villa 1 Post Match Dirge Thread.

[Walmley_Villa]

Slow, cumbersome and forward players shot of any confidence. The Captain shitefest has sadly destroyed McGinn, that is at the manager's door. Inability to defend the set-piece last night was laughable.

Against a team like Forest with a leaky defence we should have gone for the jugular from the off but ended up devoid of a plan and ideas. Remember how well we played v Leeds away last season, this group is capable so something is wrong at Bodymoor. Gerard throwing the players under the bus is not going to get a reaction. His days must be numbered.

[paul_e]

There were moments in the 2nd half that summed things up for me -
(i) Watkins was given an 'out' ball with which he did well, breaking on the right side. When he got about 35 yards out, he looked for support in the middle of the park where there were acres of open space - no Villa player was anywhere near, and Watkins got crowded out;
(ii) A Villa attack on the left was made, quickly and with incision, until it reached McGinn who scooped up the ball toward the goal to no one in particular ... he had all the time in the world to take a touch and then shoot.

We looked unfit and the decision-making on the pitch looks terrible. There appears to be absolutely no understanding  between the players, no idea of what their roles are, no link-up play between defence and midfield, no link-up play between midfield and our 1 forward.
Gerrard has to go, it's terrible. Coutinho sums him up - lacklustre and ineffective.

The bit that summed up our "buildup" play for me was when Doug had the ball deep in our half, between CB and LB, and Buendia came running all the way back to take the ball off him. And then he passed it straight back to Doug. So we were in exactly the same place as we were before but now with Buendia miles out of position. Genius.

The worst part of last night was the amount of times that one of Coutinho, Buendia or Ramsey was the 3rd deepest player in the team and taking the ball off the centre backs. There's absolutely no chance that you'd be asking any of them to do that if you were vaguely competent, all three need to play much closer to Watkins if we want to start creating proper chances.

[Clark W Griswold]

We've been playing the '3 pronged attack' since 2017 and i've never liked it. Liverpool do it but with better players that are closer together and that get more support from the midfield. Ours are too spaced out from each other, it did work when Grealish was in the team and in form because he kept hold of the ball, occupied at least a couple of players and allowed our players time to catch him up and it also allowed them more space. He also won a lot of set pieces up there. Whenever we've played it without him during the last 5 years it has pretty much been a waste of time. The moment mentioned above when Watkins had it on the right hand side with zero support is something i noticed myself and is a typical example of the problem.

[Proposition Joe]

There were moments in the 2nd half that summed things up for me -
(i) Watkins was given an 'out' ball with which he did well, breaking on the right side. When he got about 35 yards out, he looked for support in the middle of the park where there were acres of open space - no Villa player was anywhere near, and Watkins got crowded out;
(ii) A Villa attack on the left was made, quickly and with incision, until it reached McGinn who scooped up the ball toward the goal to no one in particular ... he had all the time in the world to take a touch and then shoot.

We looked unfit and the decision-making on the pitch looks terrible. There appears to be absolutely no understanding  between the players, no idea of what their roles are, no link-up play between defence and midfield, no link-up play between midfield and our 1 forward.
Gerrard has to go, it's terrible. Coutinho sums him up - lacklustre and ineffective.

The bit that summed up our "buildup" play for me was when Doug had the ball deep in our half, between CB and LB, and Buendia came running all the way back to take the ball off him. And then he passed it straight back to Doug. So we were in exactly the same place as we were before but now with Buendia miles out of position. Genius.

The worst part of last night was the amount of times that one of Coutinho, Buendia or Ramsey was the 3 deepest player in the team and taking the ball off the centre backs. There's absolutely no chance that you'd be asking any of them to do that if you were vaguely competent, all three need to play much closer to Watkins if we want to start creating proper chances.

Yeah, at one of those points I thought I'd try and spot where McGinn was, because surely he should be one of the players we'd want taking the ball off the defence. McGinn was drifting over to the right side to mark a Forest player, or rather, to make sure he himself was marked. This says to me he was hiding from the ball.

[Stinkin_Thinkin]

There were moments in the 2nd half that summed things up for me -
(i) Watkins was given an 'out' ball with which he did well, breaking on the right side. When he got about 35 yards out, he looked for support in the middle of the park where there were acres of open space - no Villa player was anywhere near, and Watkins got crowded out;
(ii) A Villa attack on the left was made, quickly and with incision, until it reached McGinn who scooped up the ball toward the goal to no one in particular ... he had all the time in the world to take a touch and then shoot.

We looked unfit and the decision-making on the pitch looks terrible. There appears to be absolutely no understanding  between the players, no idea of what their roles are, no link-up play between defence and midfield, no link-up play between midfield and our 1 forward.
Gerrard has to go, it's terrible. Coutinho sums him up - lacklustre and ineffective.

The bit that summed up our "buildup" play for me was when Doug had the ball deep in our half, between CB and LB, and Buendia came running all the way back to take the ball off him. And then he passed it straight back to Doug. So we were in exactly the same place as we were before but now with Buendia miles out of position. Genius.

Well what about the one late in the 2nd half where Mings surged into the Forrest half gave it to Young and ran on for the one-two when Young shit himself, turned 180 and passed it back to Konsa who was deep in our own half? Players don't trust each other.

[paul_e]

There were moments in the 2nd half that summed things up for me -
(i) Watkins was given an 'out' ball with which he did well, breaking on the right side. When he got about 35 yards out, he looked for support in the middle of the park where there were acres of open space - no Villa player was anywhere near, and Watkins got crowded out;
(ii) A Villa attack on the left was made, quickly and with incision, until it reached McGinn who scooped up the ball toward the goal to no one in particular ... he had all the time in the world to take a touch and then shoot.

We looked unfit and the decision-making on the pitch looks terrible. There appears to be absolutely no understanding  between the players, no idea of what their roles are, no link-up play between defence and midfield, no link-up play between midfield and our 1 forward.
Gerrard has to go, it's terrible. Coutinho sums him up - lacklustre and ineffective.

The bit that summed up our "buildup" play for me was when Doug had the ball deep in our half, between CB and LB, and Buendia came running all the way back to take the ball off him. And then he passed it straight back to Doug. So we were in exactly the same place as we were before but now with Buendia miles out of position. Genius.

Well what about the one late in the 2nd half where Mings surged into the Forrest half gave it to Young and ran on for the one-two when Young shit himself, turned 180 and passed it back to Konsa who was deep in our own half? Players don't trust each other.

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

[usav]

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

Fair.  You can't play Pep ball unless you have Pep's players.

I'm going to get slated for saying this first part, but I'll say it anyway......2 goals conceded in 4 games with minimal opportunities for the opposition (City aside as they are different).  He's certainly made us harder beat and fixed the defensive side of things - which he had to do.   I don't know how he fixes the forwards when you have Watkins who can't trap a ball or hold it up and Buendia who goes over at the slightest puff of wind.  Coutinho is good in flashes, but is a luxury we can't afford when not in possession.   McGinn is just not good enough to run the midfield.   

The squad isn't good enough, we badly needed a striker and didn't get one.  Not sure if that is on the manager or those above him.

[Proposition Joe]

I'd like to see us create chances, any chances, before deciding if we need a striker.

[Ian.]

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

Fair.  You can't play Pep ball unless you have Pep's players.

I'm going to get slated for saying this first part, but I'll say it anyway......2 goals conceded in 4 games with minimal opportunities for the opposition (City aside as they are different).  He's certainly made us harder beat and fixed the defensive side of things - which he had to do.   I don't know how he fixes the forwards when you have Watkins who can't trap a ball or hold it up and Buendia who goes over at the slightest puff of wind.  Coutinho is good in flashes, but is a luxury we can't afford when not in possession.   McGinn is just not good enough to run the midfield.   

The squad isn't good enough, we badly needed a striker and didn't get one.  Not sure if that is on the manager or those above him.

Maybe he needs to take Watkins and McGinn out of the firing line?

It worked by dropping Mings. Whether that was intentionally done but Mings has been outstanding since he’s come back. He’s also left Luiz out a few times.

I don’t understand why he hasn’t given Archer a run, or Sanson. Chambers is another who’s looked very good who can’t get a sniff.

With McGinn and Watkins it’s like Southgate for England trying to play Maguire back into form, but all it’s doing is turning the fans against said players and then their confidence is further shot.

All of that is on the manager.

[Hookeysmith]

He needs sacking if he has McGinn, Coutinhio and Luiz anywhere near the starting places on Sunday.

McGinn - has become so poor that i actually feel sorry for him - he should be put out of his and our misery. Poorly positioned, loses the ball so often i lost count, tries too many Hollywood balls which rarely find the target. The amount of times he takes the ball facing the wrong way then has to control it then spin where he is inevitably caught by an opponent is unbelievable. His header just about summed up his ineptness

Coutinhio - Done just enough to get himself bought and now a shadow of the former self - no wonder we got him so cheaply

Luis - absolutely fucking shocking at almost everything he does - every time he loses it, and that is a lot, he goes down like he has been poleaxed. Yet another player who believes his own hype and thinks he is so much better than he actually is. The odd gimmicky goal from a corner does not make up for the rest of your total shitness


Finally

As good as our owners are, just look at where we are in recruitment costs compared to others that are considered our peers. Buendia is our costliest player at £33m when i really thought we would be up there with some serious purchases yet the nucleus of what started last night was

Young (who played very well) but aged 37

Mings
McGinn - all in championship team in 2018

Konsa
Luiz
Nakamba
Guilbert - all in squad that struggled to stay up in first year 2019

Sanson
Cash
Watkins - added in 2020

Hardly ripping up the transfer windows are we?

[paul_e]

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

Fair.  You can't play Pep ball unless you have Pep's players.

I'm going to get slated for saying this first part, but I'll say it anyway......2 goals conceded in 4 games with minimal opportunities for the opposition (City aside as they are different).  He's certainly made us harder beat and fixed the defensive side of things - which he had to do.   I don't know how he fixes the forwards when you have Watkins who can't trap a ball or hold it up and Buendia who goes over at the slightest puff of wind.  Coutinho is good in flashes, but is a luxury we can't afford when not in possession.   McGinn is just not good enough to run the midfield.   

The squad isn't good enough, we badly needed a striker and didn't get one.  Not sure if that is on the manager or those above him.

Maybe he needs to take Watkins and McGinn out of the firing line?

It worked by dropping Mings. Whether that was intentionally done but Mings has been outstanding since he’s come back. He’s also left Luiz out a few times.

I don’t understand why he hasn’t given Archer a run, or Sanson. Chambers is another who’s looked very good who can’t get a sniff.

With McGinn and Watkins it’s like Southgate for England trying to play Maguire back into form, but all it’s doing is turning the fans against said players and then their confidence is further shot.

All of that is on the manager.

Exactly, I think he got very lucky with Mings and to a lesser extent Luiz. Both of them could easily have sulked about how they've been treated since he arrived but instead have just got on with it. With McGinn and Watkins (and a couple of others) it would be the other way round because he's backed them irrespective of form and it's not working so now resting them looks more and more like a punishment instead of looking like rotation if he'd been more decisive earlier. As you say it also means the players are starting to get abuse from the fans which clearly won't help, the reaction to McGinn gonig off last night was an example of how that works, that'll have been tough on him.

[Mister E]

Three good chances second half:

Ramsey - instead of shooting, crossed, although that was good defending too from the Forest player.

McGinn - should have used his foot.

Archer - instead of heading toward goal knocked it back across the goal.

Bad decision making

That’s a bit harsh on Ramsey. He did the right thing and we would have scored had Watkins be more aware.

Nah, he should have shot, if its the chance I'm thinking of. Watkins was in the right place to put it in but the ball never got to him.

Watkins might well have been offside, actually.

[mrfuse]

I'd like to see us create chances, any chances, before deciding if we need a striker.

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

Fair.  You can't play Pep ball unless you have Pep's players.

I'm going to get slated for saying this first part, but I'll say it anyway......2 goals conceded in 4 games with minimal opportunities for the opposition (City aside as they are different).  He's certainly made us harder beat and fixed the defensive side of things - which he had to do.   I don't know how he fixes the forwards when you have Watkins who can't trap a ball or hold it up and Buendia who goes over at the slightest puff of wind.  Coutinho is good in flashes, but is a luxury we can't afford when not in possession.   McGinn is just not good enough to run the midfield.   

The squad isn't good enough, we badly needed a striker and didn't get one.  Not sure if that is on the manager or those above him.

I agree with some of what you are saying but you cant say with all the international we have that the squad is not good enough.

We simply don't create enough chances and you have to allow for Strikers going through Barren spells.  Okay you can criticise Watkins for his finishing but how often do we put a decent cross in the box for him?  I don't really rate Ings but again the service we've given him hasn't been great either. We almost inevitably hit a defender and when we stop doing that we start the usual floaty bollocks cross

Its fairly easier to make yourself difficult to beat but to have a system that creates lots of chances requires a lot more thought and creativity from the Coaching team.

[brontebilly]

He needs sacking if he has McGinn, Coutinhio and Luiz anywhere near the starting places on Sunday.

McGinn - has become so poor that i actually feel sorry for him - he should be put out of his and our misery. Poorly positioned, loses the ball so often i lost count, tries too many Hollywood balls which rarely find the target. The amount of times he takes the ball facing the wrong way then has to control it then spin where he is inevitably caught by an opponent is unbelievable. His header just about summed up his ineptness

Coutinhio - Done just enough to get himself bought and now a shadow of the former self - no wonder we got him so cheaply

Luis - absolutely fucking shocking at almost everything he does - every time he loses it, and that is a lot, he goes down like he has been poleaxed. Yet another player who believes his own hype and thinks he is so much better than he actually is. The odd gimmicky goal from a corner does not make up for the rest of your total shitness


Finally

As good as our owners are, just look at where we are in recruitment costs compared to others that are considered our peers. Buendia is our costliest player at £33m when i really thought we would be up there with some serious purchases yet the nucleus of what started last night was

Young (who played very well) but aged 37

Mings
McGinn - all in championship team in 2018

Konsa
Luiz
Nakamba
Guilbert - all in squad that struggled to stay up in first year 2019

Sanson
Cash
Watkins - added in 2020

Hardly ripping up the transfer windows are we?

Luiz spent a lot of time on the floor last night, and whinging generally, but did his primary DM role well. Thought he had a fine second half to be honest and made some excellent turnovers. Granted Forest sat deeper and deeper as the game went on but he's a long way down our current problems.

Agreed on Coutinho, harsh on McGinn as clearly been played in the wrong position. Against granted a limited Ireland side a couple of weeks ago he was a different player playing off the front man. Playing him on the right of midfield really pisses me off as he is completely left sided.

[paul_e]

I'd like to see us create chances, any chances, before deciding if we need a striker.

That's a confidence issue, our players are scared of getting caught short by giving the ball away with people out of position so we reguarly play it safely backwards and then launch it up field where we'll have time to get into position if the ball gets lost (as it usually does).

Fair.  You can't play Pep ball unless you have Pep's players.

I'm going to get slated for saying this first part, but I'll say it anyway......2 goals conceded in 4 games with minimal opportunities for the opposition (City aside as they are different).  He's certainly made us harder beat and fixed the defensive side of things - which he had to do.   I don't know how he fixes the forwards when you have Watkins who can't trap a ball or hold it up and Buendia who goes over at the slightest puff of wind.  Coutinho is good in flashes, but is a luxury we can't afford when not in possession.   McGinn is just not good enough to run the midfield.   

The squad isn't good enough, we badly needed a striker and didn't get one.  Not sure if that is on the manager or those above him.

I agree with some of what you are saying but you cant say with all the international we have that the squad is not good enough.

We simply don't create enough chances and you have to allow for Strikers going through Barren spells.  Okay you can criticise Watkins for his finishing but how often do we put a decent cross in the box for him?  I don't really rate Ings but again the service we've given him hasn't been great either. We almost inevitably hit a defender and when we stop doing that we start the usual floaty bollocks cross

Its fairly easier to make yourself difficult to beat but to have a system that creates lots of chances requires a lot more thought and creativity from the Coaching team.

That he could head at goal from we put in 1 last night and it drew our only other shot on target and probably the best save of the match (Emi's from Kouyate looked flashier but was at a nicer height). I'm think the grief Watkins gets, and the number of goals he scores, would be very different if he was getting 2-3 chances like that per game (and I don't see creating 2-3 heading opportunities around the 6 yard box per game as particularly over-ambitious or unrealistic). This is where removing our width has really hurt us as a team because I think Ings would look better in that setup as well.