Leicester City vs Aston Villa off

[paul_e]

Problem is we’ve had one game where a more defensive selection has worked but that was against a near on top of the league Man City and everyone played well and look good
We’re playing bottom of the league on Saturday and most people are still going with a defensive minded team

The biggest question is how can we get players like Coutinho and Buendia into a workable formation because playing 2 defensive midfielders against Rubbish sides will get us nowhere, might as well have gone for big Sam

We have to be playing open progressive football against at least half the teams in the league, and that’s Gerard biggest challenge in my view
We have the players but Breaking teams down like Bournemouth and West Ham where we were on top for most of the game has proved difficult, Playing more defensive players will not help with that

It’s a conundrum which need answers

No matter what the level you need to physically match the opponent. That's something Gerrard forgot v Bournemouth. Seemed as if we thought we could just rock up and they would roll over for us. Chelsea and Italy played two holding midfielders in their recent triumphs that rarely got beyond the ball. They could all play on the half turn though, McGinn simply can't.

I like your pointing-out about McGinn and Hourihane before him not being able to play on the half-turn.

However, I feel the expression, like the recent "pivot/double pivot" discussion may leave some posters cold and confused. Can you explain what this half-turn fully means and why it's so important, so that people can understand the qualified criticism that McGinn receives?

I always used to say to anyone who would listen that Hourihane always received the ball facing his own goal and in that split second to turn around the press was on him - and that was in the Championship.
McGinn is very much the same - watch how may times he receives the ball facing his own goal, takes a touch to control and then has to spin round to keep the move going. This is the reason he gets into trouble so much as that split second time to do that allows an opposition player to press him and if he is lucky his spin using his large arse can get him out of trouble. When he is not so lucky, or if his first touch is not great (which it often is not) then he either turns directly into a block or he is pressured to release the ball quickly - usually a 40 yard punt hit and hope to no one.

You watch the better teams and their flowing moves usually see the ball always in front of the attacking player where they can take it in their stride without breaking motion and keep the move going forward at pace.

These are 2 slightly different problems.

I think there's an element of truth that McGinn can be a bit Laboured in taking possession, turning and getting his head up. It is, in my opinion, the biggest reason why he struggles when he's too deep. A big part of being a good DM is having thr ability to take the ball from the Keeper and CBs and start an attack. As a team in general it's been something we've been poor at for years though and that's including players like Luiz and now Kamara who are easily capable of providing this, which makes me think the bigger part oft he problem starts elsewhere.

The 2nd part about how we pass is a much bigger problem and could well be caused by the same flaw as the bigger problem I mentioned. If you watch how we play (tand it was really evident in pre-season and in our poor start) too many of our passes are 'soft'. We make the recipient collect the ball and take an extra touch to open play up. It's only a minor thing but it means most of our play is 2-3 touch and often requires us to stop/slow-down or even turn around. All the little fractions of a second that this wastes is a big part of why we look so slow. When it clicks and we make things happen it's usually because we've had 2-3 moments of play where we can play 1-touch or where we find someone on the run who doesn't have to break stride.

I suspect this started because it was how Grealish liked to start play so he could control the tempo and too many of our players just got into doing it as a habit. If Gerrard can fix that and make our passing crisper and more 'in front' of play I think the comments about our lack of pace would thin out very quickly.

[Risso]

You're right about the passing Paul. Too often they're either just backwards, which gives all teams time to shut us down, or they're not played into space, meaning the receiver has to take an extra touch instead of running onto it or hitting another first time pass. Teams like Man City can get away with it, when 10 'safe' passes in a row are then finished with a killer pass from the likes of Foden or de Bruyne, but too often we'll get the ball in midfield, pass it back to a midfielder or defender, pass it along the defensive lines, before running  out of options and then hoofing it and losing it.

[tomd2103]

You're right about the passing Paul. Too often they're either just backwards, which gives all teams time to shut us down, or they're not played into space, meaning the receiver has to take an extra touch instead of running onto it or hitting another first time pass. Teams like Man City can get away with it, when 10 'safe' passes in a row are then finished with a killer pass from the likes of Foden or de Bruyne, but too often we'll get the ball in midfield, pass it back to a midfielder or defender, pass it along the defensive lines, before running  out of options and then hoofing it and losing it.

I usually sit in the North Stand or Holte End so get a view from behind the players.  It has been the case for many seasons now where movement off the ball when we are in possession is not great.  Gerrard's formation has exasperated this as we are so disjointed. 

There really are few options when defenders and central midfielders are on the ball and when the ball goes out wide, our full-backs are isolated and have to go backwards. 

As I say, this has been an issue for some time and we have struggled when the onus is on us to have possession for longer spells and try and break teams down.

[john e]

Some decent debate on how defence and midfield can control and move the ball more effectively, sometimes it’s not a right or wrong scenario but just different tactics and skills of how to play

Seeing as Hourahine  and McGinn have been brought up the biggest difference between the two in my view is that McGinn always tries to move the ball forward most of the times he gives the ball away it’s because he’s trying something positive, Where is Hourihane was very cautious safe and in my view slowed the game down too much,
In summary you’re always going to give the ball away more times when you take more risks
Although I agree his form is rubbish at the moment and needs to be taken out

Moving away from that little nugget the link up play between the back four and midfield is without doubt the biggest problem we have had for a long time, again that’s just my own opinion

The amount of time we spend passing around the back with no real intention or idea of knowing what to do it’s nothing like what Man City do as Rizzo says And often leads to lumping the ball up in the end anyway
It’s incredibly frustrating to watch and it’s a combination of needing better tactics as in the midfielder’s dropping back to move the ball forward or better players

It’s the reason Grealish played so deep, he’s probably the best player we’ve seen at VP For at least 20 years And he was a genius at not losing the ball in very tight situations and moving it to someone else in claret and blue
We obviously miss that because he was One of the best we’ve ever had

The whole defence midfield is an interesting debate everyone has their own view mine is I like more progressive front foot football and not so much The two defensive sitters that’s not to say it should never be used but not as a default position for me

[LeeB]

Some decent debate on how defence and midfield can control and move the ball more effectively, sometimes it’s not a right or wrong scenario but just different tactics and skills of how to play

Seeing as Hourahine  and McGinn have been brought up the biggest difference between the two in my view is that McGinn always tries to move the ball forward most of the times he gives the ball away it’s because he’s trying something positive, Where is Hourihane was very cautious safe and in my view slowed the game down too much,
In summary you’re always going to give the ball away more times when you take more risks
Although I agree his form is rubbish at the moment and needs to be taken out

Moving away from that little nugget the link up play between the back four and midfield is without doubt the biggest problem we have had for a long time, again that’s just my own opinion

The amount of time we spend passing around the back with no real intention or idea of knowing what to do it’s nothing like what Man City do as Rizzo says And often leads to lumping the ball up in the end anyway
It’s incredibly frustrating to watch and it’s a combination of needing better tactics as in the midfielder’s dropping back to move the ball forward or better players

It’s the reason Grealish played so deep, he’s probably the best player we’ve seen at VP For at least 20 years And he was a genius at not losing the ball in very tight situations and moving it to someone else in claret and blue
We obviously miss that because he was One of the best we’ve ever had

The whole defence midfield is an interesting debate everyone has their own view mine is I like more progressive front foot football and not so much The two defensive sitters that’s not to say it should never be used but not as a default position for me

I'm generally with you regarding the holding midfield set up, but I'm convinced with the players we have we'll see far better attacking play by giving our attacking players more room to play in and drawing teams onto us a bit more.

[RamboandBruno]

Some decent debate on how defence and midfield can control and move the ball more effectively, sometimes it’s not a right or wrong scenario but just different tactics and skills of how to play

Seeing as Hourahine  and McGinn have been brought up the biggest difference between the two in my view is that McGinn always tries to move the ball forward most of the times he gives the ball away it’s because he’s trying something positive, Where is Hourihane was very cautious safe and in my view slowed the game down too much,
In summary you’re always going to give the ball away more times when you take more risks
Although I agree his form is rubbish at the moment and needs to be taken out

Moving away from that little nugget the link up play between the back four and midfield is without doubt the biggest problem we have had for a long time, again that’s just my own opinion

The amount of time we spend passing around the back with no real intention or idea of knowing what to do it’s nothing like what Man City do as Rizzo says And often leads to lumping the ball up in the end anyway
It’s incredibly frustrating to watch and it’s a combination of needing better tactics as in the midfielder’s dropping back to move the ball forward or better players

It’s the reason Grealish played so deep, he’s probably the best player we’ve seen at VP For at least 20 years And he was a genius at not losing the ball in very tight situations and moving it to someone else in claret and blue
We obviously miss that because he was One of the best we’ve ever had

The whole defence midfield is an interesting debate everyone has their own view mine is I like more progressive front foot football and not so much The two defensive sitters that’s not to say it should never be used but not as a default position for me

I'm generally with you regarding the holding midfield set up, but I'm convinced with the players we have we'll see far better attacking play by giving our attacking players more room to play in and drawing teams onto us a bit more.

I think if a team is struggling its often a default position to try and add a bit more security into the team with more defensive minded players. Whilst id prefer us to be more attacking, i think at the moment we need to get back on an even keel and probably grind out some results. If/when we are able to string a few results together and confidence grows, we could then go more expansive again against the right teams.
Footballs funny in that ability of the players obviously makes the difference but confidence and momentum count for an awful lot as well. Id be more than happy being a bit mire defensive minded and grinding out a couple of one goal wins against Leicester and Southampton, if that built confidence amongst the group to go out and attack teams more. 

[Chris Smith]

I agree with the idea above of using a solid midfield base to give more freedom to the attacking players. Although Gerrard hasn’t really used the option yet having 5 subs to bring on gives a manager the ability to switch styles quickly if needed.

We’ve been too inconsistent to predict the result with any confidence.

[paul_e]

Personally I like the idea of 4231 with the squad we have.

So long as 1 of the 2 is Kamara or Luiz who are probably the best 'transition' players we have to get the ball to our attacking players in good areas of the pitch. By having the 2 you also allow the fullbacks to get forward more, which is clearly something Gerrard wants us to do.

For the 3 the biggest problem is that we've left ourselves a little short. We have no choice but to go a bit lop-sided and have width on the right and be narrow on the left. If we can let Digne push forward that's not such a problem, just something we need to plan around. Having Buendia or Ramsey on that side in front of him gives us the work rate and agression to make teams a little more reluctant to push forward too quickly and they certainly won't want to be dwelling on the ball out there. That also frees Coutinho up for more of a 10/false 9 role where he can be told to stay up the pitch and fairly central so we get him on the bal lwhere he has more chance to hurt teams, playing off a willing runner like Watkins allows for that but if Ings comes in we'd probably need to go towards more of a 433 and repalce Countinho with someone a little more willing to work off the ball, which is where McGinn adds some value potentially.

[tom jennings III]

Thinking about the Arsenal game specifically it was painfully clear how much better drilled they were at one-touch passing, quick movement, one-twos, flicks in tight spaces after drawing the opposition marker in. Simply receiving the ball, having a touch, and then looking for the next pass is rarely going to create any space in this division which means you are relying on a player with unreal pace/skill or a mistake from the opposition to allow an overload or create a chance. As such, as many have mentioned before, our slower passing game will invariably lead only to either an error by us to give the ball away or a relatively harmless punt upfield for Ollie to chase. At best we might work a situation where Cash/Young or Digne might swing the ball in for us to compete for in the box. This is an option every now and then (more so if we had someone bigger in the box!) but shouldn't really ever be the main plan. Would be different if we were able to quickly move the ball and work space for the fullbacks to bomb into closer (or entering) to the opposition box so they could attempt to pick out a player in the middle then I've no doubt we would see the results.

[brontebilly]

Problem is we’ve had one game where a more defensive selection has worked but that was against a near on top of the league Man City and everyone played well and look good
We’re playing bottom of the league on Saturday and most people are still going with a defensive minded team

The biggest question is how can we get players like Coutinho and Buendia into a workable formation because playing 2 defensive midfielders against Rubbish sides will get us nowhere, might as well have gone for big Sam

We have to be playing open progressive football against at least half the teams in the league, and that’s Gerard biggest challenge in my view
We have the players but Breaking teams down like Bournemouth and West Ham where we were on top for most of the game has proved difficult, Playing more defensive players will not help with that

It’s a conundrum which need answers

No matter what the level you need to physically match the opponent. That's something Gerrard forgot v Bournemouth. Seemed as if we thought we could just rock up and they would roll over for us. Chelsea and Italy played two holding midfielders in their recent triumphs that rarely got beyond the ball. They could all play on the half turn though, McGinn simply can't.

I like your pointing-out about McGinn and Hourihane before him not being able to play on the half-turn.

However, I feel the expression, like the recent "pivot/double pivot" discussion may leave some posters cold and confused. Can you explain what this half-turn fully means and why it's so important, so that people can understand the qualified criticism that McGinn receives?

Johnny Giles has always described it well in terms of "moral courage" as he sees it. A guy playing on the half turn is always at risk of being dispossesed so the player has to have the courage to keep making himself available for the pass and secondly getting turned on it quickly. To be honest it also takes a lot of skill, good balance/strength. The other type of courage in flying into tackles, not that Giles was shy about it, he saw as the easy part and the one traditionally favoured in the English game.

The likes of Luiz particularly and even Kamara the last day infuriated me, if they sensed even a hint of pressure they were returning the pass to the likes of Mings. Luiz clearly has the ability but too often he is to willing to pass the buck. Then the likes of Mings gets it in the neck for going long and losing the ball. Maybe Gerrard to be fair thought Carlos would be able to step into midfield as another body, though there was no evidence of this at Bournemouth.

I think we too easily forget how good Grealish was in getting us playing through the lines when we looked like we were going places. Luiz and McGinn as a midfield two had plenty of good games then but Grealish was always an outball for everyone.

[Risso]

Some decent debate on how defence and midfield can control and move the ball more effectively, sometimes it’s not a right or wrong scenario but just different tactics and skills of how to play

Seeing as Hourahine  and McGinn have been brought up the biggest difference between the two in my view is that McGinn always tries to move the ball forward most of the times he gives the ball away it’s because he’s trying something positive, Where is Hourihane was very cautious safe and in my view slowed the game down too much,
In summary you’re always going to give the ball away more times when you take more risks
Although I agree his form is rubbish at the moment and needs to be taken out

Moving away from that little nugget the link up play between the back four and midfield is without doubt the biggest problem we have had for a long time, again that’s just my own opinion

The amount of time we spend passing around the back with no real intention or idea of knowing what to do it’s nothing like what Man City do as Rizzo says And often leads to lumping the ball up in the end anyway
It’s incredibly frustrating to watch and it’s a combination of needing better tactics as in the midfielder’s dropping back to move the ball forward or better players

It’s the reason Grealish played so deep, he’s probably the best player we’ve seen at VP For at least 20 years And he was a genius at not losing the ball in very tight situations and moving it to someone else in claret and blue
We obviously miss that because he was One of the best we’ve ever had

The whole defence midfield is an interesting debate everyone has their own view mine is I like more progressive front foot football and not so much The two defensive sitters that’s not to say it should never be used but not as a default position for me

Agreed about Grealish, John. You rarely if ever saw him give the ball away, or get tackled fairly. If he ever lost the ball it was mainly because he was running with it and got fouled. When he was at his best he just it so much easier for the rest of the team. He could go past defenders on either side, whether he was running at full pelt, or was almost stationary. That made it easier for Watkins because he'd be getting a lot more balls passed to him in dangerous areas, and also made it easier for the likes of McGinn, because if teams were sitting depper and double marking Grealish, he'd have more time on the ball and could play in a more advanced position.

[Bobby Boy]

2-2 draw.

Thrills and spills.

[mrfuse]

Could it be that kamara is going to be pushed a little further forward and Dendoncker playing Kamara's position.

I keep seeing training clips of Kamara playing further forward.

[tomd2103]

Some decent debate on how defence and midfield can control and move the ball more effectively, sometimes it’s not a right or wrong scenario but just different tactics and skills of how to play

Seeing as Hourahine  and McGinn have been brought up the biggest difference between the two in my view is that McGinn always tries to move the ball forward most of the times he gives the ball away it’s because he’s trying something positive, Where is Hourihane was very cautious safe and in my view slowed the game down too much,
In summary you’re always going to give the ball away more times when you take more risks
Although I agree his form is rubbish at the moment and needs to be taken out

Moving away from that little nugget the link up play between the back four and midfield is without doubt the biggest problem we have had for a long time, again that’s just my own opinion

The amount of time we spend passing around the back with no real intention or idea of knowing what to do it’s nothing like what Man City do as Rizzo says And often leads to lumping the ball up in the end anyway
It’s incredibly frustrating to watch and it’s a combination of needing better tactics as in the midfielder’s dropping back to move the ball forward or better players

It’s the reason Grealish played so deep, he’s probably the best player we’ve seen at VP For at least 20 years And he was a genius at not losing the ball in very tight situations and moving it to someone else in claret and blue
We obviously miss that because he was One of the best we’ve ever had

The whole defence midfield is an interesting debate everyone has their own view mine is I like more progressive front foot football and not so much The two defensive sitters that’s not to say it should never be used but not as a default position for me

Agreed about Grealish, John. You rarely if ever saw him give the ball away, or get tackled fairly. If he ever lost the ball it was mainly because he was running with it and got fouled. When he was at his best he just it so much easier for the rest of the team. He could go past defenders on either side, whether he was running at full pelt, or was almost stationary. That made it easier for Watkins because he'd be getting a lot more balls passed to him in dangerous areas, and also made it easier for the likes of McGinn, because if teams were sitting depper and double marking Grealish, he'd have more time on the ball and could play in a more advanced position.

The best thing about him is that he was able to quickly transition defence to attack on his own.  We didn't really need to play out, as he would pick balls up in our defensive third and before you knew it we were in the opposition's half. 

When we were in the Championship, he was able to do it from a central position and then from a wide area when we came up.  He could literally get us to the edge of the opposition box on his own in no time and we could go from there.

Enough about him anyway.  I think one of the reasons we tend to do OK against the better sides is that we can play on the counter attack against them and that suits us.  When teams come and put everyone behind the ball, we just don't seem to have too many ideas how to break them down. 

[eamonn]

2-2 draw.

Thrills and spills.

The same player scoring all the goals?