Where Has It All Gone Wrong?

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And Smith managed what Bruce could not. He got us promoted.

Liverpool are only going to win the league because of all their good players. If it wasn't for them having better players, they wouldn't be doing as well.

Some absolute cutting edge analysis, along with absurd polemics going on in this thread.

[rougegorge]

It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.

Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling.  Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed

With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.

It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season

Tend to agree with this. We were awful in Dec, Jan and Feb last season. Jack was immense but the signing of Mings was also crucial so fair play to DS for that

Yes I think Mings helped too, but we are indeed awful now and we were rubbish this time last year.

There have been references before about Smith going on good runs and then awful ones and that's why he never got real league success with Brentford or Walsall.

It kind of went wrong when we thought we hadn't done, or wouldn't do a 'Fulham', but essentially that's what we are doing.

There have been a few performances that have been ok, but only that. Some have been appalling, especially the capitulations or being outplayed and outmanoeuvred by 10 men on several occasions.

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Eddie Howe wouldn't have made it out of 2015.

[Ketzster]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

[adrenachrome]

Leicester was a reality check and it hit the team hard as well as Smith. It was men against boys, they have not recovered, got worse and Smith has no answers.

If so fucking diddums! Would they like the fans to implement 'Jazz hands' instead of cheering while they recover from the shock?

I think DS reverting to a defensive strategy at Sheffield United following the Leicester game had an adverse effect. The players had been told that we could go toe to toe with anyone, and they stopped believing. After the game, DS admitted he wished he hadn't tried it.

Pure conjecture, I concede.

[Damo70]

And Smith managed what Bruce could not. He got us promoted.

Liverpool are only going to win the league because of all their good players. If it wasn't for them having better players, they wouldn't be doing as well.

Some absolute cutting edge analysis, along with absurd polemics going on in this thread.

I had to look up what 'polemics' meant. I thought it was someone born to one Polish parent and one Irish parent.

[Ads]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.

[Toronto Villa]

While it's easy to hammer player recruitment in hindsight this group of players looked perfectly fine just a month or two ago and then almost beating Liverpool in what would have been a very deserved result. That we have a manager who throughout the season has been tactically naive late in games, immensely stubborn in his approach and has become increasingly defensive in his outlook and accusatory as results became poorer is for me the biggest issue we are facing.

I am very much in the camp that Dean Smith must shoulder the majority of the blame for what has gone wrong so far. He gave us all the impression that he was an astute football manager who had a specific gameplan for each opponent and one that irrespective of the opponent would see us trying to win. The evidence is very much to the contrary. He has one plan and our possession stats of late suggest he is trying to avoid defeat rather than play to win. He hasn't sorted out our defensive issues. All too often we are overrun in midfield and our players still make stupid errors throughout the game. Those things should have been fixed by now. It's on the manager to do that with his staff, with his players; to send them out best prepared to get positive results. For me, there are no signs that is happening now, or more worryingly is about to change any time soon.

[de bank]

I wasn’t convinced with Smith last season, you could see his limitations & even during the 10 run win we were very average in a lot of the games, grealish, some luck & then momentum got us to the play offs, even then, against baggies I thought we were awful & very lucky to get through we were very lucky to get Derby not Leeds, 
It’s great having a Villa fan as a manager & great to have stability & a long term plan, but it simply has to be the right manager, who can improve players, change formations & react in game time, 433 can work for the likes of Liverpool & city etc that have a great defensive midfield platform & fantastic fast, hard working wide players that score regularly & track back, but for Smith to carry on doing the same thing that in my opinion only kinda worked by & luck & grealish coming back is shocking, he simply isn’t the great coach that we all though & hoped he was & I think if we lose tomorrow he has to be sacked.

[Ketzster]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.

But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking

[vilan461]

There are so many instances to hazard a guess at;
The penalty v Bournemouth,
The 3rd goal at Arsenal;
The handbags between Mings & AEL,
The insistance of starting Wesley every league game,
The refusal to change system even though its patently obvious 433 simply is not working,
The in out in of Hourihane,
The playing of both Luiz and Nakemba in the same game,
The continued playing of our best and most influrntisl player in the wrong position.
The import of so many unproven players with no Premiership experience,
The seemingly stubborn refusal unless enforced to make substitutions
The list is endless perm any 2 or 3 or a combination of them all.

[Ads]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.

But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking

I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.

We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
 The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.

You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?

We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.

This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.

We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.

Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.

[Abbeyfealeavfc]

This is a thread that wouldn't have looked out of place in any of the years from MON throwing his dummy out of the pram up until our eventual inevitable relegation.
As a thread for the season 19/20 when we got promoted as the 5th best team in the championship, knowing this season was always going to be a struggle, I'm not so sure. Why haven't things worked out so far, maybe?
Something has to be on the path to being right before it can go wrong and we were never the finished article getting promoted to a division that had moved on in our 3 year absence.

[Ketzster]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.

But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking

I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.

We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
 The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.

You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?

We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.

This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.

We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.

Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.

Yes Ads I do go to the games. That’s why I was able to form the view I have about Smith because I was at all of the games between Leeds at home and Stoke away last season. I genuinely believe that had Grealish not come back, we wouldn’t have got promoted or come anywhere near. Had Smith been left to his devices pre Grealish returning, we were on course to finish towards the lower end of the championship. The difference in one game was so huge. There was no sign of Smith doing anything to stop the rot then, just like now. I’m not saying anything terribly outlandish but you disagree and that’s your opinion. You say Smith has produced some of the best football since Brian Little, I have also seen him produce an awful lot of dire football, some of which has been the worst football I’ve ever seen a Villa side produce. Wigan away being the lowest of the low in my opinion which I said at the time and you disagreed with which is fine. What de bank has said in a post above is absolutely spot on. I agree with that post but you probably don’t. It’s an opinion

You mention we had other players than Jack last season, which is totally my point. Yes we did, and Smith did nothing with them before Derby at home. And what was it that changed in that game?

[The Edge]

We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.

I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.

And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months

Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.

But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking

I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.

We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
 The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.

You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?

We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.

This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.

We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.

Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.

It's amazing how far people will go to try and be proved right once they dig their heels in. To the point where they will get a kick out of the clubs adversity just so they can come on here and say "i told you so" I gave up reading the comments when the 3-3 draw against Sheffield Utd at home was described as a "freak last 10 minutes" when it should of read "a brilliant come back in the last 10 minutes" I'm still hoping that Dean & co will turn things around even though my faith is diminishing. If it doesn't work out and the inevitable happens i'll wish him well and thank him for some special memories after years of purgatory watching the Villa and be grateful that we were saved from the abyss by our owners and their appointment of Smith in the first place.