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Author Topic: VAR  (Read 150469 times)

Offline Astnor

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1950 on: February 06, 2021, 10:46:25 PM »
Our game today, VAR wasnt involved at all?
BTW I have decided that I m against VAR after giving it some thought. Some of the beauty of football is the simplicity of the rules. Probl the most complex rule are you cant be offside and the most basic rule has to be that you cant use your hands on the ball (its FOOTball). Another important rule is that you have to go for the ball and not the man (espescially not in a way that is dangerous to the other). To judge some of the incidents during a game and deciding wheter one of these rules are violated will always have to have a subjective element to it. And because of that the subjectivity of the refree IS PART OF THE GAME - it has to be (two diferent refrees will never make similar decisions in all of one and the same game - if an expriment where set up fx). The players and the fans trying to influence the refree s judgments is also part of the game as we are used to and is also some of the charm? of the game IMO. When the offside or the handball in the box are questionable VAR get involved. VAR and the following decision from the refree are also subjective (and questionable) - red card to the West Ham player today is an xample of that. With VAR the judgments are just brought to another level - nothing gained really BUT the simplicity and some flow of the game and then some of the beauty of the game get lost.
Do I make a case and a proven point here or am I just to drunk? Anyway happy with the win tonight.

Online olaftab

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1951 on: February 06, 2021, 10:51:31 PM »
Love your post Astnor and whatever you are drinking  is good. :)

Offline DB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1952 on: February 07, 2021, 12:39:14 AM »
Get rid. It's over turning tight off-side decisions but creating new errors. Slows the game down and players & fans can't celebrate in case it goes to VAR.

Offline Steve67

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1953 on: February 07, 2021, 07:14:51 AM »
Even the pundits are turning against it. VAR is embarrassing especially for the likes of that arrogant fecker Mike Dean.

Offline john2710

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1954 on: February 07, 2021, 09:27:01 AM »
VAR was brought in to address the issues of refereeing errors & idiotic decisions. The problem with VAR itís the same idiots making the decisions.

On the offside rules, elite sport is about fractions of a second & fine margins. I think most people are OK with this & how itís applied in football. Itís not ideal but itís consistent & fair. Thereís never going to be a perfect solution that suits everyoneís opinion.

Itís the penalty decisions that seem to be made up on the fly.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1955 on: February 07, 2021, 09:27:53 AM »
I donít mind the use of VAR on offside, where itís factual but it should also be used on divers.

Online Brend'Watkins

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1956 on: February 07, 2021, 09:37:37 AM »
I donít mind the use of VAR on offside, where itís factual

If only it was factual. Itís anything but.


Online Ian.

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1957 on: February 07, 2021, 09:54:07 AM »
Itís not useless, itís the people who are observing it that are useless and the new rules to accommodate it.

Again how can they look at that and judge it to be a deliberate elbow. It should not even have been advised for Dean to view it. Ridiculous every week.

Offline Nev

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1958 on: February 07, 2021, 10:31:32 AM »
Itís not useless, itís the people who are observing it that are useless and the new rules to accommodate it.

Again how can they look at that and judge it to be a deliberate elbow. It should not even have been advised for Dean to view it. Ridiculous every week.

But that is your opinion, and mine as a matter of fact, but it wasn't the opinion of the officials and that's where VAR is doomed to failure, these decisions are subjective. However it's adjusted, nudged,  changed, fiddled with, there is no getting over that.

VAR should only be used for matters of fact, everything else should be left to the on field officials.

It will never, ever work otherwise.

Offline exigo

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1959 on: February 07, 2021, 10:41:10 AM »
It's based on bullshit, that's the problem. At 50 frames per second, they're trying to say that the ball is hit by the boot for 0.02 seconds, which is nonsense.
If it's going to stay, you can't just have that one frame as the point of contact, and then start drawing lines that seem to defy the actual plane of perspective to fit the narrative. The way to bring in some sort of 'linesman's call' is to spread the judgement over a few frames of footage. If the striker is onside in any of them, he's on.

Offline frank black

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1960 on: February 07, 2021, 11:45:02 AM »
It's based on bullshit, that's the problem. At 50 frames per second, they're trying to say that the ball is hit by the boot for 0.02 seconds, which is nonsense.
If it's going to stay, you can't just have that one frame as the point of contact, and then start drawing lines that seem to defy the actual plane of perspective to fit the narrative. The way to bring in some sort of 'linesman's call' is to spread the judgement over a few frames of footage. If the striker is onside in any of them, he's on.

And itís take 2-3 minutes now, imagine if they are drawing 3 set of lines over three frames 😂

Offline exigo

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1961 on: February 07, 2021, 12:28:30 PM »
'Clear and obvious' shouldn't need lines at all. Quick cycle through all frames where the ball is being played, and the vast majority could be done by eye.

Offline OCD

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1962 on: February 07, 2021, 12:52:28 PM »
It's leading to the rules of the game being applied to the absolute letter, which means they're under a magnifying glass, rather than applying the spirit in which they were intended. The Soucek sending off for West Ham was an example of that. It should have just been a case of the ref telling the players to get on with it but instead the VAR takes several minutes to watch it over and over again before calling the ref over. Then the ref watched it again and again, over and over for several minutes before deciding it was a sending off. How many times do they need to be told it has to be clear and obvious? If it takes that long and needs to be watched that many times, it wasn't clear and obvious.

Online Ian.

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1963 on: February 07, 2021, 12:58:48 PM »
Itís not useless, itís the people who are observing it that are useless and the new rules to accommodate it.

Again how can they look at that and judge it to be a deliberate elbow. It should not even have been advised for Dean to view it. Ridiculous every week.

But that is your opinion, and mine as a matter of fact, but it wasn't the opinion of the officials and that's where VAR is doomed to failure, these decisions are subjective. However it's adjusted, nudged,  changed, fiddled with, there is no getting over that.

VAR should only be used for matters of fact, everything else should be left to the on field officials.

It will never, ever work otherwise.
I agree, itís not going to work. Iíve said before when they were talking about introducing VAR, you have fans and pundits arguing after the match about decisions so how can that work during a game. Itís too subjective.

What I really donít get at the moment though, is weíve had so many clearly obvious things happen which the pundits and fans are agreeing with but the match officials are looking at the screen and not seeing what everyone else is seeing.

Offline baddowvillans

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1964 on: May 21, 2021, 08:15:44 AM »
As the season draws to what is I believe a satisfactory end for Aston Villa, I sincerely hope that the referee's association will look thoroughly at their decisions throughout the year and ask themselves what they MUST do better to enable VAR to do what it was intended to - make decisions fair and unbiased.

Offside.  To be honest although we have had a number of toenail decisions go against us I do feel that by and large this has been pretty evenly applied.  It will always be flawed in that it is restricted by the challenge of choosing the exact frame when the ball is released but I think most sides have had goals chalked off for those marginal decisions (I was surprised West Hams was awarded the other night though)  The only change I think I would make is to have the decision purely isolated around the foot.  Trying to determine whether a shoulder or arse is beyond the foot just adds an extra layer of complexity so stick to the feet and if in doubt give the advantage to the striker.

Clear and Obvious Errors.

It's a simple enough statement but this is where I see the problems lie.  Offside is offside but their are a number of decisions which rely on interpretation and therefore VAR tend to not overule the on field referee in these cases.  On balance that appears the fair and reasonable approach except this year Villa have found to their cost that not all referees interpret scenarios in the same way and usually that means not Villas way.

Others will have more but the obvious one  for me are:-

1. Where a foul is committed in the penalty area does prior contact with the ball mitigate the offence and if so how significant does that contact need to be?

I am thinking here Villa v Brighton.  Trez turns the ball inside, Solly March sticks out a leg and gets a feint touch on the ball before his studs catch Trez's shin and he goes down (theatrically I know)  VAR examine it and recommend the ref views it.  Michael Oliver does so and signals no penalty as he "got the ball".  A week later Brighton play Liverpool and a pool defender does the same thing gets a touch on the ball but folks Wellbeck.  Verdict penalty.  Which is it?

2.  Where a ball hits a defenders hand in the area, what constitutes an "unnatural position" and how do you assess when a player can't get out of the way? 

Here I offer as an example of Cash ve Man City.  Cash is running back to block the cross and his arm is swinging as a natural part of running.  The ball clearly hits that arm and the penalty is given.  For me no complaints in insolation but then against Man United Greenwood's jumps with his arms above his head (to me arms to shoulder height for leverage is normal) a blocks Volleyball style the flick on from Luiz a ball going goalwards (but not into the goal).  Verdict No Penalty.  I accept Greenwood was nearer but the act of raising your arms over your head make contact with the ball more likely.  So handball or not which is it?

3.  Does it matter if the ball is running out of play and cannot be stopped by either player. 

I give you Kane at Villa Park where he realises he can't get a cross/shot in and so steps into Cash's attempt to block the shot. Penalty supported later by Dermot Gallagher because if the foul I committed whilst the ball is in play its a penalty.  Except on Wednesday when Loris bring Oli down Craig Pawson appears to think that the fact the ball was going out means it is not a penalty.  Again which is it?

Referee's need to be absolutely clear and consistent about these and no doubt other scenarios.  If they are then VAR can intervene and call out where a "clear and obvious error" has been made instead of being reluctant to do so for fear of undermining the onfield referee.

VAR was supposed to avoid the accepted tendency for referee's to favour the "bigger" clubs but this year - and not just with us - it has clearly failed to do so.  Do I think they will look at issues like this and try and do something?  If I'm honest no, because they think they are right, but unlike before we can now all look accurately at all of those inconsistencies and see their failings. 

For me the 14 clubs outside the Super 6 need to gather all their examples like above and present them to the league and referee's referee's demand a change in approach and outcome.

I wait with bated breath

 


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