The International Cricket Thread 2018

[paul_e]

James Vince recalled as cover for Bairstow and Jennings has kept his place.

Lessons learned: zero

If James Vince is the answer then I don’t want to know the question.

I suspect the question is: pick one form Malan, Vince or a 36 year old Bell?

A year ago Bell was nowhere near a recall. He’s had a good season in all forms of cricket and he’s got his hunger back. Realistically whoever has been selected since he was dropped have not replaced his runs, there’s certainly a case for him to be picked.

I think that we should stick with Pope and try Burns too. Adding Bell to the order would bring the kind of experience that would help the newer players.

So I’d go Cook, Burns, Bell, Root, Pope, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Broad & Anderson. That harsh on Buttler but he’s a handy replacement.

Too harsh on Buttler based on how he's played this summer, especially given he'll probably be taking the gloves for the next couple of tests.  I'd still be tempted to push Bairstow up to the top 3.

I can see the argument for Bell, but I can also see the reason for picking a guy who has 9 years on him, especially given Vince is having a very good summer (averaging 56).  I share the concern that he's not done it at international level though.

For me Vince is just another Ramprakash/Hick far too good for county level but not good enough for international cricket.

[Villan For Life]

If Vince is another Hick/Ramprakash then surely that's more reason to select Bell?

Select Bell until the end of the Ashes next year and see if he can help shore up the batting whilst helping develop the likes of Pope and Burns. He’s the same age as Anderson, why are we using his age against him?

[paul_e]

If Vince is another Hick/Ramprakash then surely that's more reason to select Bell?

Select Bell until the end of the Ashes next year and see if he can help shore up the batting whilst helping develop the likes of Pope and Burns. He’s the same age as Anderson, why are we using his age against him?

I'm not using it against him, I'm just clarifying why I think they've made the call, I suggested it was the way they'd go a few days back because, despite poor performances for England so far Vince has gone back to his county and done the business this summer, I think they're more likely to reward that than to recall Bell as a short term fix.  I think Bell is a far better player but I can see why you wouldn't go back to him yet.  Give Vince these 2 games and if he fails again then you consider taking Bell away in the Winter as a fallback option.

On Anderson, if he'd not been in the test side for 2 1/2 years would people be calling for his return?

[PaulWinch again]

I think they might go with Vince to open.

[Villan For Life]

I think they might go with Vince to open.

Wouldn’t they have dropped Jennings from the squad if that were the case?

I think Vince is in as cover, if Bairstow can’t keep wicket then Buttler will be behind the stumps. If Bairstow can’t bat then Vince plays, if Bairstow can bat then Vince isn’t in the starting XI.

[PaulWinch again]

Maybe, and that might well be the case, but Vince had opened, he’s in form, he’s playing at his home ground, and he’s right handed. After selecting him there are a number of reasons why they might want to include him.

[taylorsworkrate]

James Vince recalled as cover for Bairstow and Jennings has kept his place.

Lessons learned: zero

If James Vince is the answer then I don’t want to know the question.

I suspect the question is: pick one form Malan, Vince or a 36 year old Bell?

A year ago Bell was nowhere near a recall. He’s had a good season in all forms of cricket and he’s got his hunger back. Realistically whoever has been selected since he was dropped have not replaced his runs, there’s certainly a case for him to be picked.

I think that we should stick with Pope and try Burns too. Adding Bell to the order would bring the kind of experience that would help the newer players.

So I’d go Cook, Burns, Bell, Root, Pope, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Broad & Anderson. That harsh on Buttler but he’s a handy replacement.

Too harsh on Buttler based on how he's played this summer, especially given he'll probably be taking the gloves for the next couple of tests.  I'd still be tempted to push Bairstow up to the top 3.

I can see the argument for Bell, but I can also see the reason for picking a guy who has 9 years on him, especially given Vince is having a very good summer (averaging 56).  I share the concern that he's not done it at international level though.

For me Vince is just another Ramprakash/Hick far too good for county level but not good enough for international cricket.

Hick and Ramprakash were easily good enough technically for international cricket. It was largely between the ears that let both of them down.

Hick also had to wait years to qualify and then came in against a fearsome WI attack. If both were at their peak now, then both would easily average over 50 in test cricket.

[Villan For Life]

There’s a series of programmes on Sky at the moment called Mind Games. It’s in four parts and examines the mental aspect of the game.

As you can imagine both Hick and Ramprakash feature heavily. If you have Sky Sports it should be available on catch up.

[paul_e]

Hick and Ramprakash were easily good enough technically for international cricket. It was largely between the ears that let both of them down.

Hick also had to wait years to qualify and then came in against a fearsome WI attack. If both were at their peak now, then both would easily average over 50 in test cricket.

I agree, I never specified why they failed but neither of them reproduced their county form for England and I suspect Vince will go the same way, I can see him regularly getting 1000+ runs in a summer but looking out of his depth whenever he plays for England.

We won't see anything about it until he retires but I suspect it will turn out that his problems are in his head as well.

[tomd2103]

Hick and Ramprakash were easily good enough technically for international cricket. It was largely between the ears that let both of them down.

Hick also had to wait years to qualify and then came in against a fearsome WI attack. If both were at their peak now, then both would easily average over 50 in test cricket.

I agree, I never specified why they failed but neither of them reproduced their county form for England and I suspect Vince will go the same way, I can see him regularly getting 1000+ runs in a summer but looking out of his depth whenever he plays for England.

We won't see anything about it until he retires but I suspect it will turn out that his problems are in his head as well.

I'm not sure Vince is in the same bracket talent wise as Hick and Ramprakash to be honest Paul and doubt he will achieve the kind of landmarks they did in their careers.  Mike Atherton had some interesting thoughts about Hick in his autobiography and said that although there were initially some technical flaws that were exposed at international level, it was more his character that was the problem.  He did add, however, that when he came back to the test arena in the mid to late 90's after being initially discarded he did fine and averaged over 40. 

In the Mind Games series mentioned above, Ramprakash admits that he was crippled by nerves when he played for England and it really affected him.  There could be a whole series on how England got things wrong during the 90's, but he said that no-one really talked to players about difficulties they were having and they were just dropped if things did not go well.  He said it wasn't a coincidence that his first hundred for England came after some discussions with a sports therapist.     

[paul_e]

Of course not, Hick and Ramps were brilliant players and he's not at the same level but he looks every bit the classy no3 and is almost textbook in his approach at county level but for England he doesn't play the same way and keeps giving his wicket away to the same mistakes, which is exactly what happened to Hick.  As you say Hick came back and was a reasonable player but he never reached the heights expected and never came close to replicating his county form.

To go back on this though, my initial point is that I totally understand Vince being recalled, he's got 800+ runs in 9 matches this summer and England are struggling for runs in the top order, he's an obvious choice, I just hope, for his sake, that he doesn't fuck up with loose drives to balls on a 5th stump line.  It became frighteningly predictable when he was in the side before and he must know that.

[tomd2103]

Of course not, Hick and Ramps were brilliant players and he's not at the same level but he looks every bit the classy no3 and is almost textbook in his approach at county level but for England he doesn't play the same way and keeps giving his wicket away to the same mistakes, which is exactly what happened to Hick.  As you say Hick came back and was a reasonable player but he never reached the heights expected and never came close to replicating his county form.

To go back on this though, my initial point is that I totally understand Vince being recalled, he's got 800+ runs in 9 matches this summer and England are struggling for runs in the top order, he's an obvious choice, I just hope, for his sake, that he doesn't fuck up with loose drives to balls on a 5th stump line.  It became frighteningly predictable when he was in the side before and he must know that.

I mentioned it in a previous post, but Angus Fraser said on one of the debate shows on SKY during the last test that if a position was available then it would be between Malan and Vince.  He reasoned that they had both recently been around the set up and would fit in much easier than a player who had not.  It would be interesting to see Vince come in a bit further down the order and see if he could play with a bit more freedom.   

[hipkiss92]

Interesting stats on Vince’s test career to date at the below, suggesting it’s been almost luck which has seen him batting below his F.C. average to date

https://www.wisden.com/stories/stats-analysis/james-vince-unlucky-analysis-cricviz

[tomd2103]

James Vince recalled as cover for Bairstow and Jennings has kept his place.

Lessons learned: zero

If James Vince is the answer then I don’t want to know the question.

I suspect the question is: pick one form Malan, Vince or a 36 year old Bell?

A year ago Bell was nowhere near a recall. He’s had a good season in all forms of cricket and he’s got his hunger back. Realistically whoever has been selected since he was dropped have not replaced his runs, there’s certainly a case for him to be picked.

I think that we should stick with Pope and try Burns too. Adding Bell to the order would bring the kind of experience that would help the newer players.

So I’d go Cook, Burns, Bell, Root, Pope, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Broad & Anderson. That harsh on Buttler but he’s a handy replacement.

Too harsh on Buttler based on how he's played this summer, especially given he'll probably be taking the gloves for the next couple of tests.  I'd still be tempted to push Bairstow up to the top 3.

Going back to the current situation, we really need to start ticking boxes in the build up to the Ashes next summer.  I agree about Bairstow and if his finger is OK, I would try him at three for the rest of the series with Buttler taking over keeping duties.  Move Root back to four and persevere with Pope at five for the time being.  I would bring back Ali in home conditions as Rashid has hardly bowled this summer and I think Ali's contribution with the bat would have a greater impact than Rashid's contribution with the ball. 

That would mean a 3-11 of Bairstow, Root, Pope, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson.  I'd be pretty happy with that and if the Bairstow - Root combination works then other options like Vince, Malan, possibly Bell could be tried at five if Pope struggles, Foakes could be an option at seven and Curran and Rashid could provide alternative bowling options.  That woyuld just leave the openers and although I think we should probably persevere with Cook until the Ashes, then I would look at Burns or Gubbins to replace Jennings in the winter.     

[paul_e]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that but Burns would be a long way ahead of Gubbins for me.