Manager suggestions - Now with added poll

[paul_e]

I can't see how anyone could be less safe than Garde frankly Paul.  You clearly don't get the point which was simply, chuck a foreign name on here (whether its a player or manager) and the excitement levels go through the roof often from people who had never heard of the bloke 24 hours earlier.  Their are countless examples of this, Garde just being the most extreme.  I accept your own judgement may be based on more than this but that doesn't invalidate the general point.

But yes, I do absolutely think that Monk (for example) would be a far safer bet for us in our current position than a young foreign manager with no experience of our leagues.

Yes it does invalidate the general point because most of the time it happens someone (this time you) comes out with the same tired old arguments that people are reacting to the fancy foreign name.  It usually gets followed up with us needing some pashun and someone to scare the shit out of the players.  You then get people saying that we need Bruce/Moyes/Allerdyce/Warnock/Pearson.  You've done it slightly differently by suggesting Monk but you've still run with the idea that having managed in England makes a manager a safer bet based on very little other than some strange idea that British football exists in a bubble and requires a completely different skillset to any other league.

Oh, and Garcia has managed nearly as many championship games as Monk and has experience of getting a team into the playoffs, something that Monk bottled out of last year.

[Dave]

You clearly don't get the point which was simply, chuck a foreign name on here (whether its a player or manager) and the excitement levels go through the roof often from people who had never heard of the bloke 24 hours earlier.

You seem very sure that people are approaching their view from a position on ignorance.

You not having heard of Oscar Garcia doesn't mean that somebody else commenting on him is in the same boat.

[Villatillidie25]

I would suggest the best bet, if we are to change manager, would be to go with someone who is accustomed to being expected to win. This may lend itself to going for a foreign manager as I suspect it would be easier to prize away someone who has done well in a so-called lesser league than it is to prize someone away from a domestic rival. I also think the domestic pool is a lot smaller - how many managers are at clubs that expect to win every week (and demonstrating that they can do this). Rafa managed it last season (but I think he might be out of our reach!). Monk is probably the only other manager in the league with similar fan expectations to Bruce and he's had a slightly indifferent start.
There is also some credence to the argument that it is important to have someone who knows the league though but, I would suggest, this is only in the sense that the number of games, lack of winter break and overall intensity of the league take some getting used to. Some managers may be tempted to rotate to much in order to preserve players and may not quite get the balance right initially so it is of less importance than the ability to instill a winning mentality and cope with that expectation.

This doesn't necessarily mean it will work (Bruce ticks both these criteria and it hasn't worked so well for him) but I think it is a good starting point. Overall, I would suggest Jokanovic has demonstrated this following his time at Watford, has followed it up by doing a good job at Fulham and also knows the league and could hit the ground running. He'd get my vote (and did in the poll!)

[Rudy Can't Fail]

You clearly don't get the point which was simply, chuck a foreign name on here (whether its a player or manager) and the excitement levels go through the roof often from people who had never heard of the bloke 24 hours earlier.

You seem very sure that people are approaching their view from a position on ignorance.

You not having heard of Oscar Garcia doesn't mean that somebody else commenting on him is in the same boat.

I would imagine plenty would have known him (and his brother, Roger) as a player in Bobby Robson's crazy season at Barcelona.

[chrisw1]

You clearly don't get the point which was simply, chuck a foreign name on here (whether its a player or manager) and the excitement levels go through the roof often from people who had never heard of the bloke 24 hours earlier.

You seem very sure that people are approaching their view from a position on ignorance.

You not having heard of Oscar Garcia doesn't mean that somebody else commenting on him is in the same boat.

It was a general tongue in cheek comment but I've no doubt there is some truth in it for many people.  Look at the excitement over Garde - how many people honestly knew much about him before he was linked with us?  It's the same with players, people getting over excited by the likes of Veretout who they have never seen play.

With regards the general point, I've no great love for Gary Monk, indeed I particularly dislike him as an individual and think he is graceless in post match interviews.  But he is a reasonable example of someone who may be a safer pair of hands and who doesn't have to be an old fashioned 'dinosaur.'  Solskjaer is a good example of someone who seemed to tick a lot of boxes but couldn't translate his managerial skills to England.  I'm sure De Boer will come good in the long run, but in our precarious position when RDM was sacked, could we have afforded that settling in period last October?

And I know enough about Garcia to know he was pretty average over 50 games for Brighton.  There's nothing in his record for people to get so clammy about and yes, absolutely I think his name helps.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Also, anybody that frequents the Music Threads on here will be well aware of Percy's love for Oscar Garcia..

[Dave]

You clearly don't get the point which was simply, chuck a foreign name on here (whether its a player or manager) and the excitement levels go through the roof often from people who had never heard of the bloke 24 hours earlier.

You seem very sure that people are approaching their view from a position on ignorance.

You not having heard of Oscar Garcia doesn't mean that somebody else commenting on him is in the same boat.

It was a general tongue in cheek comment but I've no doubt there is some truth in it for many people.  Look at the excitement over Garde - how many people honestly knew much about him before he was linked with us?  It's the same with players, people getting over excited by the likes of Veretout who they have never seen play.

You mention in an earlier post that paul_e doesn't get the point, but the point you still seem to be ignoring is that there is nothing that isn't a risk.

Surely Steve safe-pair-of-hands Bruce and Ross 30-goals-a-season-since-forever McCormack should be all we needed based on their record? Everyone knew them, they had solid records to show off, they were effectively risk free weren't they?

Well, no. Sometimes it's the bloke who's just been sacked from Espanyol in his only job to date when they were bottom of the table who goes on to be one of the most sought after managers in the world.

Employing a Spanish bloke managing in France is a risk. Just like hiring any other manager.

[chrisw1]

OK.  My opinion is that simply that some are more risky than others.

My view is a we have been teetering on a knife edge for a while and another Garde like failure would have seen us relegated again. 

Yes, there's a risk with the likes of Monk and Rowett (Or Dyche, Houghton etc) that we may not fly up the table and get promoted, but I suspect they would all do a decent job and with our squad there would next to no risk of us being relegated with them.

[Dave]

OK.  My opinion is that simply that some are more risky than others.

Absolutely. But in my opinion "being a bit foreign" isn't the thing that defines that risk.

[paul_e]

OK.  My opinion is that simply that some are more risky than others.

My view is a we have been teetering on a knife edge for a while and another Garde like failure would have seen us relegated again. 

Yes, there's a risk with the likes of Monk and Rowett (Or Dyche, Houghton etc) that we may not fly up the table and get promoted, but I suspect they would all do a decent job and with our squad there would next to no risk of us being relegated with them.

and, it appears, that opinion is largely based on the belief that people you've heard of are less likely to be shit than people you haven't heard of.  That is just as limited a view as the idea of getting excited by the foreigner that you're being critical of.

Just to clarify I think Garcia has decent credentials - his record at Brighton was OK and he did get them into the playoffs, his record in Austria was very good (at a team that expected to win) and a few years working with Cryuff and then at La Masia serves as a great apprenticeship for anyone.  His time in israel is less relevant but again he managed at the big fish in the league and largely achieved what they'd have expected.

On top of that after I posted the link (with no excitement I hope you'll note) I didn't pass any comment until I'd had a bit of a look around to see how his team at Salzburg played.  On the limited amount of footage I've found I'd say he plays in the way I'd like to see from us and that could be effective.

I'm not championing him or getting over excited and as I said earlier I wouldn't be against Monk coming in (I wouldn't want Rowett though).  My main gripe is this idea that doing things largely the same as we have for 5 of the last 6 managers, who all played a part in getting us to where, is less of a risk than something slightly comparable with the the other on of those 6 who is the only one of the lot who has a genuine case that his job was made impossible by the board/owner.

[chrisw1]

Paul - all understood.  I know you do your research.  As I said it was tongue in cheek and more a commentary on football forums as a whole than you specifically (I wanted Veretout to join as much as the next man).

I'd love it if we find the next Pochettino.  I just don't think we could survive a Zenga. 

[cheltenhamlion]

Can we cover why we appointed Garde. That bit I do know from many conversations around that time with Tom Fox.

They wanted a bloke who played more progressive football. They saw that he did a decent job in France at a big club but where he had to use the youth as the top players were sold out from under him. He was a big name in France and it was hoped he would be a boost in a dressing room with a lot of French speakers but whose achievements ought to be respected by our senior pros.

It wasn't actually a bad plan.

The English senior pros immediately attempted to undermine him. He couldn't discipline them as he wanted when 3 of them were due to be thrown in the kids side. He then didn't get to sign the players he wanted in January. They did try to get a couple but the deals fell over.

My issue with Garde is that he was so pissed off with his shit hand he gave up.

[paul_e]

Paul - all understood.  I know you do your research.  As I said it was tongue in cheek and more a commentary on football forums as a whole than you specifically (I wanted Veretout to join as much as the next man).

I'd love it if we find the next Pochettino.  I just don't think we could survive a Zenga. 

For me I don't think relegation is a risk, we have enough players who can win a match on their own to always keep ahead of the really poor sides in this league (Bolton and Burton as 2 good examples) so my view is about finding someone to move us the other way.  Last year we finished 13th and I struggled to see anything to suggest a big improvement, the play style was poor, the signings were functional rather than exciting, the results were hit and miss.  That made for, for me, a summer where I had very little hope of a massive turnaround in our fortunes.  Pre-season added that and the start we've made has just proven to be as depressing as I expected.

Looking at the manager you'd expect as favourites (I've listed them above) they're the sort you'd bring in to dodge relegation and steady the ship but there isn't one of them that I can see leading us on a charge up the table and into the premier league and, just as importantly, there isn't one of them that I'd trust to leave us with a positive legacy of improved technical standards and professionalism.  I'm willing to be patient and wait for things to be right before we get promoted but being patient whilst we flail around in the dark hoping for a miracle with a plan to completely rip everything up once we're do get promoted just isn't for me.

I don't know anything for sure but Frank De Boer and Oscar Garcia (and Phillippe Cocu who is my vote above) have all been heavily involved with clubs where the 'villa engine' concept is firmly established and whose best players are those who've come through the system so even if the results don't improve enough to get us up I'd at least have hope that their experiences were feeding into our own system rather than working against it.

[Damo70]

Monk has got something of a shit eating grin mind. If a little bit of that came out after a 3-0 defeat at Millwall or similar it might be a boot through the TV moment.

I think the closest I came to a genuine boot through the TV moment was DOL giving a Friday night interview to SKY before a game at Arsenal where he basically suggested we weren't worthy to be on the same pitch as them. We went on to lose heavily the next next funnily enough.

[paul_e]

Can we cover why we appointed Garde. That bit I do know from many conversations around that time with Tom Fox.

They wanted a bloke who played more progressive football. They saw that he did a decent job in France at a big club but where he had to use the youth as the top players were sold out from under him. He was a big name in France and it was hoped he would be a boost in a dressing room with a lot of French speakers but whose achievements ought to be respected by our senior pros.

It wasn't actually a bad plan.

The English senior pros immediately attempted to undermine him. He couldn't discipline them as he wanted when 3 of them were due to be thrown in the kids side. He then didn't get to sign the players he wanted in January. They did try to get a couple but the deals fell over.

My issue with Garde is that he was so pissed off with his shit hand he gave up.

Yep, I'm disappointed with Garde for a couple of reasons but as above, of anyone who's managed us in the last decade he's the only one who can argue he wasn't given any help by the board. Most of them have had to work to a budget but that should just be standard, that it's such an alien idea to so many people in the sport highlights just how fucked the finances of the sport are.