Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[ChicagoLion]

So if you include Ayew he has spent over 30 million then.

depends how you value Ayew

I think 6.1 million is not unreasonable.
However the point is that the 30 million that was shot down in flames appears close to the mark.

[chrisw1]

Normally when people refer to a club being big spenders, it is net spend - ie what they are adding to the current squad.  I accept c£26m sounds like a lot of money (frankly Taylor can't possibly have been valued at more than £2-3m), but this was just shuffling the deck, not adding mutli millions of pounds to an established squad.

With that said, I don't think what has been spent was spent particularly wisely - it looks like a pretty poor bunch of players for the money.

[CJ]

So if you include Ayew he has spent over 30 million then.

depends how you value Ayew

I saw somewhere that the Taylor/Ayew swap was valued at around £5.2m each way which would make the total £29.1m

I got that bit wrong - we got Taylor + a fee rising to up to £5m for Ayew, so clearly Taylor is valued at a lot less than £5m

[ASHTONVILLA]

When you look at net spend for Bruce, you also have to take off what was still owing (amortised fee) to get what it meant for our FFP mess.

Eg. Gestede still had two years left on the contract he signed when he joined , so half the fee we paid needs to be taken off what he fetched in from a book perspective. When you do this you have to take a big chunk off the fees we got for Golini, Veretout, Amavi, Sanchez and Gestede. Only with Baker and possibly Westwood can you count the whole fee received. And with Westwood we had a payment to make for Crewe to take off (sell on fee).

If someone better at maths than me can work it out, then I am pretty sure it puts Bruce in defecit regards net spend. That is without loan fees, and signing on fees.

You then need to look at what we would fetch in under FFP for some of the drek he chose to sign. Hogan for instance is highly unlikely to fetch enough not to go down down as a loss - so we are either going to stuck with the useless lump or loan him out until he gets closer to the end of the contract and we can mug him off for more than we owe. I suspect this is why Sanchez, Amavi and Golini all went on loan before finally signong later on.

Bruce has been shocking in the transfer market regards FFP.

[chrisw1]

When you look at net spend for Bruce, you also have to take off what was still owing (amortised fee) to get what it meant for our FFP mess.

Eg. Gestede still had two years left on the contract he signed when he joined , so half the fee we paid needs to be taken off what he fetched in from a book perspective. When you do this you have to take a big chunk off the fees we got for Golini, Veretout, Amavi, Sanchez and Gestede. Only with Baker and possibly Westwood can you count the whole fee received. And with Westwood we had a payment to make for Crewe to take off (sell on fee).

If someone better at maths than me can work it out, then I am pretty sure it puts Bruce in defecit regards net spend. That is without loan fees, and signing on fees.

You then need to look at what we would fetch in under FFP for some of the drek he chose to sign. Hogan for instance is highly unlikely to fetch enough not to go down down as a loss - so we are either going to stuck with the useless lump or loan him out until he gets closer to the end of the contract and we can mug him off for more than we owe. I suspect this is why Sanchez, Amavi and Golini all went on loan before finally signong later on.

Bruce has been shocking in the transfer market regards FFP.

Whilst I'm prepared to be critical of Bruce's signings, it's a bit rich to lay negative residual book values of previous managers signings at his door. 

[paul_e]

When you look at net spend for Bruce, you also have to take off what was still owing (amortised fee) to get what it meant for our FFP mess.

Eg. Gestede still had two years left on the contract he signed when he joined , so half the fee we paid needs to be taken off what he fetched in from a book perspective. When you do this you have to take a big chunk off the fees we got for Golini, Veretout, Amavi, Sanchez and Gestede. Only with Baker and possibly Westwood can you count the whole fee received. And with Westwood we had a payment to make for Crewe to take off (sell on fee).

If someone better at maths than me can work it out, then I am pretty sure it puts Bruce in defecit regards net spend. That is without loan fees, and signing on fees.

You then need to look at what we would fetch in under FFP for some of the drek he chose to sign. Hogan for instance is highly unlikely to fetch enough not to go down down as a loss - so we are either going to stuck with the useless lump or loan him out until he gets closer to the end of the contract and we can mug him off for more than we owe. I suspect this is why Sanchez, Amavi and Golini all went on loan before finally signong later on.

Bruce has been shocking in the transfer market regards FFP.

Whilst I'm prepared to be critical of Bruce's signings, it's a bit rich to lay negative residual book values of previous managers signings at his door. 

I agree on that but he doesn't need to take responsibility for the fact that he's loaned out/sold our first keeper, replaced with a loanee for 18 months and left us with no experienced keeper and no money. Regardless of the relative abilities swapping Terry for Baker now looks like a mistake as well because we're left with neither 12 months later and most of the fee we got in has gone on the difference in wages.  We went shit-or-bust and bottled it and now we're left with a squad with talent but huge gaps and fuck all int he bank to help fill them.

[john e]

Normally when people refer to a club being big spenders, it is net spend - ie what they are adding to the current squad.  I accept c£26m sounds like a lot of money (frankly Taylor can't possibly have been valued at more than £2-3m), but this was just shuffling the deck, not adding mutli millions of pounds to an established squad.

With that said, I don't think what has been spent was spent particularly wisely - it looks like a pretty poor bunch of players for the money.

you are correct net spend does matter

where it matters most is that you buy better players than the ones you sold
you spend the money wisely on building your own team and squad for the future

but the point I was making was that Bruce has spent 30 million on players that we will start the season with as they are all currently still with us, every single last one of them

and some posters are saying we’ll be lucky not to do get relegated, doesn’t say a lot for his ability in the transfer market
in fact it’s a bloody disaster.....imo

[chrisw1]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

[ChicagoLion]

So a disaster in the transfer market.
Limited tactically.
Poor game management.
Unable to get the best from the squad.
Does not nurture and bring on talent.

[paul_e]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

Don't get me wrong on the Terry thing, I think Terry turned out to be a good signing, I'd just have liked us to do something to plan for after he left by giving the U23s some game time or signing someone younger as cover for him.

[john e]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

I don't care that he spent 30 mill
it's what he spent it on is my problem

I mean he swapped Taylor for Ayew that's got to be one of the worst deals of all times
I know Ayew is no world beater but he's a lot better than Taylor
then he replaced  Ayew with Hogan

The blokes of his head

[chrisw1]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

Don't get me wrong on the Terry thing, I think Terry turned out to be a good signing, I'd just have liked us to do something to plan for after he left by giving the U23s some game time or signing someone younger as cover for him.

Yep, agreed.  Same can be said for midfield with the like of O'Hare etc.

[chrisw1]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

I don't care that he spent 30 mill
it's what he spent it on is my problem

I mean he swapped Taylor for Ayew that's got to be one of the worst deals of all times
I know Ayew is no world beater but he's a lot better than Taylor
then he replaced  Ayew with Hogan

The blokes of his head

Ayew + £5m wasn't it?  Even so I agree it was s hit deal and I felt that at the time.

[john e]

Yes, in hindsight he's certainly left us short.  I find it difficult to be critical of the Terry loan as he was very influential to the team and it very nearly came off. 

Bruce is far from blameless in terms of who he signed, but the manager can't take full responsibility for all FFP issues. Managers will always spend what they are told they can spend.  There should be checks and measures in place to prevent us falling into the sort of crisis we have.  I'm guessing that's why Wyness & Round are now seeking alternative employment.

edit - this was in response to Pauls post

I don't care that he spent 30 mill
it's what he spent it on is my problem

I mean he swapped Taylor for Ayew that's got to be one of the worst deals of all times
I know Ayew is no world beater but he's a lot better than Taylor
then he replaced  Ayew with Hogan

The blokes of his head

Ayew + £5m wasn't it?  Even so I agree it was s hit deal and I felt that at the time.

ok someone put it was a swap deal
I didn’t know we got an extra 5 mill which doesn’t make it quite so bad

Apart from the fact we still ended up with Taylor

[Ads]

I see people saying avoiding relegation or not doing a Sunderland is all that can be expected of Bruce next season

I thought he spent around 30 mill which as I pointed out in my post was a lot of money in this league, but was told it was ‘no where near’ that much

so I ask how much was it then?
how much did the squad that will start next season cost to bring in ?

that’s why I’m not interested in loans or wages money as that was last season and it’s gone.
what will remain is all the players he brought, how m
the point I was trying to make was all the players that Bruce had bought are still with us.
the ones he picked the ones he thought were good enough improvements on what went before the ones he brought to build the bright new future will all probably be at the club for the start of the seasonuch did he spend ?

this for me is how a manager should be judged  on what he builds and how he spends the money he’s given
I admit I think Bruce is a walking disaster but if he didn’t spend anywhere near 30 mill I’d like to know as I’m doing him a disservice

According to Transfermarkt, in straight transfer fees he's bought 7 players - Hogan £9.5m, Bree £3.15m, Hourihane £3.15m, Lansbury £3.06m, Bjarnason £1.8m, Whelan £1.53m, and Elmohamady £900k - so £23.09m. I haven't included Taylor as he looked like a straight swap for Ayew.

To offset that he's offloaded about £36.25-38.25m depending on finding an accurate figure for Amavi - Gestede £6m, Westwood £5.2m, Veretout £6.3m, Baker £3.9m, Sanchez £2.7m, Bacuna £1.35m, Gollini £3.8m, and Amavi £7-9m. So a net spend of -£13.1-15.1m. 

As others have said though, that's just straight numbers and doesn't reflect the relative future value of players brought in and those sold. I can't find details of loan values but perhaps they'd be balanced by players we've loaned out

Thank you

so he’s spent 23.9 mill + whatever Ayew was worth on players we will start next season with

So it’s not far of 30 mill then as I said

Not far off?

Tell you what, you under pay your mortgage provider by 20% and tell them it's close enough.