Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[stuart445]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

No twisting needed to be honest, you look at last year without taking into account the context of what actually happened.

Yes if you look at it the way you are it was terrible, but if you take into account we were in free fall when Bruce came in. He had to come in stop the fall and then had to try and get us climbing up the table which compared to what was happening when he was appointed he managed to do.

It's very easy to just look at it the way you are but it's not that clear cut, it was obvious to anyone who was realistic that when Bruce came in it was going to take longer than 1 season for it to turn around.

[paul_e]

I am suggesting no such thing.  Of course the hope was that he would get us into the play offs.  The point you continually refuse to acknowledge is that Bruce was pretty much as risk free as you could get.  Following the failures of McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, Black & Di Matteo and not forgetting contributions from experienced assistants - the likes of Keane, Wilkins & Clark, stabilising a club that many described as a poisoned chalice is no small feat.  Yeah, Koeman might have been able to come in part of the way through the season and do something 6 other managers had failed to do but he may well not.  (if for one fantasy moment we actually believe he may have taken the job).  On the other hand, Bruce has done it.  Saying a manager is only successful if promotion is achieved in 2/3's of a season without any acknowledgement of what has transpired in the previous 6 years is a really shitty way to judge a manager.

It's a good job I didn't say that then isn't it, however what I am saying is that anyone in any job will have a bunch of targets set for them and they will be reviewed based on those targets.  You and stuart (and others at various times) seem to think that Bruce either didn't have any for last season or that they were as simple as avoiding relegation.  I don't think that is remotely accurate and to back that up let's look at what actually happened:

• We had a new owner who'd made it pretty clear in the summer that promotion at the first attempt was the goal.
• We spent more money than the rest of the league combined to rebuild the squad in an attempt to achieve that.
• We sacked the manager who'd been given that money after 11 games because we were at the wrong end of the table.
• We hired a manager who's main positive was a bunch of promotions from this league, and our owner made mention of that in the press release to announce him.

Based on all of that what do you think his target for last season was? You can come up with any excuse/explanation/mitigation you like but it doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no chance that we went through all of that and then told him that finishing bottom half is fine.  Xia expected more and posted a tweet that stated as much as clearly as anything he's ever written:

@Dr_TonyXia
59 of 💯. That's I rated our season. Only results matters. We need RESULT next season. #UTV

Followed by:

@Dr_TonyXia
 May 8
More Dr. Tony Xia Retweeted Dr. Tony Xia
In 💯 rating system, 60 is the grade for 'pass'.  We are still at the crossroads point.

So we failed in his eyes, that's all the evidence you need that Bruce didn't achieve what was hoped of him.  The reasons for that are why he didn't get sacked in the summer but it doesn't change the fact that he under-performed.  I don't think promotion was ever likely but we should've been much closer to the playoffs.  Looking at the table I think we should've been looking to finish with Derby and Norwich, still a way short of the playoffs but quite clearly a level above where we ended up.

[chrisw1]

I agree we should have finished closer to the play offs.  But in hindsight it's now clearer to me at what a huge mess we were in.  Last season could have been better but could also have been much, much worse and Sunderland are an excellent example of that.  Right now, whilst I was very dissapointed with the start we made I'm thankful that we seem to be moving in the right direction.  I just think you underestimate the task that has been.  Of course it's conjecture as to what others may or may not have achieved, but others in the frame at the time like Pearson, Grayson and yes, even Koeman (let it go he would never have come), De Boer have gone on to fail. 

So maybe your definition of failure is different to mine.  But considering where we are right now compared to where we could have been, in my mind the appointment has been a success.  If we get into the playoffs I still think it will have been a pretty successful tenure, whether we get promoted or not. 

[Gregorys Boy]

A win tonight (which we should do of course not only could we move up to 4th, but it would mean we are in the title race.  In which case I think we need to get off Bruce's back at least until Feb

[Villa75]

People now ready to accept playoff failure in the 2nd season, of the 2nd division!?

That Will leave Xia with only 3 years (seasons) this become the top club in Europe?

If we fail to get up this season Bruce should be gone. No excuses.

[Clampy]

At the end of the day, last season has been and gone. We can pull it apart all we want but I'm not sure what the point is to be honest. We're in the middle of a promotion push now and that's what we should be concentrating on.

[paul_e]

I agree we should have finished closer to the play offs.  But in hindsight it's now clearer to me at what a huge mess we were in.  Last season could have been better but could also have been much, much worse and Sunderland are an excellent example of that.  Right now, whilst I was very dissapointed with the start we made I'm thankful that we seem to be moving in the right direction.  I just think you underestimate the task that has been.  Of course it's conjecture as to what others may or may not have achieved, but others in the frame at the time like Pearson, Grayson and yes, even Koeman (let it go he would never have come), De Boer have gone on to fail. 

So maybe your definition of failure is different to mine.  But considering where we are right now compared to where we could have been, in my mind the appointment has been a success.  If we get into the playoffs I still think it will have been a pretty successful tenure, whether we get promoted or not. 

I can't agree with the bold bit, we're Aston Villa, we belong in the top flight, any manager who gets us relegated or misses out on promotion twice cannot be considered successful as far as I'm concerned.  Another year here and this becomes, officially, our second longest absence from top flight football in the best part of 150 years.  Judging the club against it's early years is unfair so we shouldn't be upset with seasons where we aren't winning things but for the vast majority of our history we've been one of the 6-7 biggest clubs in the country, failing to be one of the 3 best in the 2nd division 2 years running can never be a successful tenure.

My definition of failure is a simple one if you miss out on the targets you're set then you've failed.  You can argue the targets were unfair, that you came close enough to deserve another chance or that other circumstances affected things and made reaching them harder than you expected but none of those mean you didn't under-perform.  The problem is you can have missed targets and failed to meet expectations but still go on to b successful, but it doesn't mean that those failures didn't happen.

Go back a re-read why this started, I told stuart that Bruce gets more stick than some people like because, to quote myself "Or last season wasn't good enough, this season is better but still not quite where we want to be but he'll deserve praise if we kick on from here."

What from that is bothering you?  You've agreed last season wasn't good enough, no one can possibly think that the start to this season was good but we're in the process of recovering from that and getting towards where we want to be.  If that carries on then the criticism stops, if we fall away then it carries on.  What I take objection to is people trying to rewrite the story of last season as if Bruce saved us from oblivion and we finished as high as anyone realistically expected.  Not only is it giving Bruce credit where even he wouldn't want it but it also suggests anyone who wanted better than the bottom half was unrealistic and that you are smarter than them for seeing the real picture despite the fact that I don't recall any of you saying dodging relegation last year was all we should expect.

[ChicagoLion]

Bruce was appointed to get us into the play offs, he failed.

[stuart445]

I agree we should have finished closer to the play offs.  But in hindsight it's now clearer to me at what a huge mess we were in.  Last season could have been better but could also have been much, much worse and Sunderland are an excellent example of that.  Right now, whilst I was very dissapointed with the start we made I'm thankful that we seem to be moving in the right direction.  I just think you underestimate the task that has been.  Of course it's conjecture as to what others may or may not have achieved, but others in the frame at the time like Pearson, Grayson and yes, even Koeman (let it go he would never have come), De Boer have gone on to fail. 

So maybe your definition of failure is different to mine.  But considering where we are right now compared to where we could have been, in my mind the appointment has been a success.  If we get into the playoffs I still think it will have been a pretty successful tenure, whether we get promoted or not. 

I can't agree with the bold bit, we're Aston Villa, we belong in the top flight, any manager who gets us relegated or misses out on promotion twice cannot be considered successful as far as I'm concerned.  Another year here and this becomes, officially, our second longest absence from top flight football in the best part of 150 years.  Judging the club against it's early years is unfair so we shouldn't be upset with seasons where we aren't winning things but for the vast majority of our history we've been one of the 6-7 biggest clubs in the country, failing to be one of the 3 best in the 2nd division 2 years running can never be a successful tenure.

My definition of failure is a simple one if you miss out on the targets you're set then you've failed.  You can argue the targets were unfair, that you came close enough to deserve another chance or that other circumstances affected things and made reaching them harder than you expected but none of those mean you didn't under-perform.  The problem is you can have missed targets and failed to meet expectations but still go on to b successful, but it doesn't mean that those failures didn't happen.

Go back a re-read why this started, I told stuart that Bruce gets more stick than some people like because, to quote myself "Or last season wasn't good enough, this season is better but still not quite where we want to be but he'll deserve praise if we kick on from here."

What from that is bothering you?  You've agreed last season wasn't good enough, no one can possibly think that the start to this season was good but we're in the process of recovering from that and getting towards where we want to be.  If that carries on then the criticism stops, if we fall away then it carries on.  What I take objection to is people trying to rewrite the story of last season as if Bruce saved us from oblivion and we finished as high as anyone realistically expected.  Not only is it giving Bruce credit where even he wouldn't want it but it also suggests anyone who wanted better than the bottom half was unrealistic and that you are smarter than them for seeing the real picture despite the fact that I don't recall any of you saying dodging relegation last year was all we should expect.

I have to agree with Paul here Bruce has to get promoted this season,  it doesn't matter how.  Failure to gain promotion this season will quite rightly result in Bruce getting the sack.

[john e]

A win tonight (which we should do of course not only could we move up to 4th, but it would mean we are in the title race.  In which case I think we need to get off Bruce's back at least until Feb

I think your right
I’m off his back
I’ll never want him to be our manager he’s just not the sort of manager I want, see also Moyes, Pulis, Mcliesh, Alardyce, Coleman, Lambert, Rednap, MON, Mclaren  actually most other British old fashioned types

but we need to go up so I’ll be there tonight supporting the team whilst not singing the Steve Bruce chant but hoping we can cement our place in the top positions

[Chico Hamilton III]

  Failure to gain promotion this season will quite rightly result in Bruce getting the sack.

In the same way that getting us promoted will result in Bruce getting the sack if Xia knows anything about anything. I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Bruce - he's like a walking definition of the Peter Principle.

[Diablo]

I am suggesting no such thing.  Of course the hope was that he would get us into the play offs.  The point you continually refuse to acknowledge is that Bruce was pretty much as risk free as you could get.  Following the failures of McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, Black & Di Matteo and not forgetting contributions from experienced assistants - the likes of Keane, Wilkins & Clark, stabilising a club that many described as a poisoned chalice is no small feat.  Yeah, Koeman might have been able to come in part of the way through the season and do something 6 other managers had failed to do but he may well not.  (if for one fantasy moment we actually believe he may have taken the job).  On the other hand, Bruce has done it.  Saying a manager is only successful if promotion is achieved in 2/3's of a season without any acknowledgement of what has transpired in the previous 6 years is a really shitty way to judge a manager.

It's a good job I didn't say that then isn't it, however what I am saying is that anyone in any job will have a bunch of targets set for them and they will be reviewed based on those targets.  You and stuart (and others at various times) seem to think that Bruce either didn't have any for last season or that they were as simple as avoiding relegation.  I don't think that is remotely accurate and to back that up let's look at what actually happened:

• We had a new owner who'd made it pretty clear in the summer that promotion at the first attempt was the goal.
• We spent more money than the rest of the league combined to rebuild the squad in an attempt to achieve that.
• We sacked the manager who'd been given that money after 11 games because we were at the wrong end of the table.
• We hired a manager who's main positive was a bunch of promotions from this league, and our owner made mention of that in the press release to announce him.

Based on all of that what do you think his target for last season was? You can come up with any excuse/explanation/mitigation you like but it doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no chance that we went through all of that and then told him that finishing bottom half is fine.  Xia expected more and posted a tweet that stated as much as clearly as anything he's ever written:

@Dr_TonyXia
59 of 💯. That's I rated our season. Only results matters. We need RESULT next season. #UTV

Followed by:

@Dr_TonyXia
 May 8
More Dr. Tony Xia Retweeted Dr. Tony Xia
In 💯 rating system, 60 is the grade for 'pass'.  We are still at the crossroads point.

So we failed in his eyes, that's all the evidence you need that Bruce didn't achieve what was hoped of him.  The reasons for that are why he didn't get sacked in the summer but it doesn't change the fact that he under-performed.  I don't think promotion was ever likely but we should've been much closer to the playoffs.  Looking at the table I think we should've been looking to finish with Derby and Norwich, still a way short of the playoffs but quite clearly a level above where we ended up.

Paul_e I doff my hat! Superb post!

[Ads]

People now ready to accept playoff failure in the 2nd season, of the 2nd division!?

That Will leave Xia with only 3 years (seasons) this become the top club in Europe?

If we fail to get up this season Bruce should be gone. No excuses.

We'd win the Play Offs.

[pbavfckuwait]

Yes we could have done a Sunderland last year, but we were taken over from rank bad management Lerner, they still have theirs. The new regime tried RDM and it did not work, so we bought in the Promotion specialist, that also did not work last season, with people on here from the start of August 2016  stating that we had the best squad, team, strikers, midfield this division had ever seen and promotion for the mighty Villa , even if you put a monkey in charge was a cert. That was not to be as we saw.

Bruce this year ( I do not like him, I did not want him), apart from a dodgy start has managed to gather together, but I am still in the area that dispite not because, as some of his better team performances have happened because of injuries and suspensions, not his chosen 11, we have seen a move up the table, an attitude change from the players, an application from the team that we will. rather than we can't, that is to his credit, and as much as many of us do not like him, he has begun at the moment to turn around a basket case of a club, into a team that wins more than it loses, that as Villa fans is all we want, but also should be a basic requirement with money spent.

Promotion by any means even through (play offs) is a minimum that we should expect of any manager given the resources of the club he is employed by.

Money might not be available because of FFP, but I have not seen anyone at the club reducing entrance costs, due to what we might not be able to spend going forward this season and therefore expecting or accepting lower levels of what is acceptable.

[ChicagoLion]

I am suggesting no such thing.  Of course the hope was that he would get us into the play offs.  The point you continually refuse to acknowledge is that Bruce was pretty much as risk free as you could get.  Following the failures of McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, Black & Di Matteo and not forgetting contributions from experienced assistants - the likes of Keane, Wilkins & Clark, stabilising a club that many described as a poisoned chalice is no small feat.  Yeah, Koeman might have been able to come in part of the way through the season and do something 6 other managers had failed to do but he may well not.  (if for one fantasy moment we actually believe he may have taken the job).  On the other hand, Bruce has done it.  Saying a manager is only successful if promotion is achieved in 2/3's of a season without any acknowledgement of what has transpired in the previous 6 years is a really shitty way to judge a manager.

It's a good job I didn't say that then isn't it, however what I am saying is that anyone in any job will have a bunch of targets set for them and they will be reviewed based on those targets.  You and stuart (and others at various times) seem to think that Bruce either didn't have any for last season or that they were as simple as avoiding relegation.  I don't think that is remotely accurate and to back that up let's look at what actually happened:

• We had a new owner who'd made it pretty clear in the summer that promotion at the first attempt was the goal.
• We spent more money than the rest of the league combined to rebuild the squad in an attempt to achieve that.
• We sacked the manager who'd been given that money after 11 games because we were at the wrong end of the table.
• We hired a manager who's main positive was a bunch of promotions from this league, and our owner made mention of that in the press release to announce him.

Based on all of that what do you think his target for last season was? You can come up with any excuse/explanation/mitigation you like but it doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no chance that we went through all of that and then told him that finishing bottom half is fine.  Xia expected more and posted a tweet that stated as much as clearly as anything he's ever written:

@Dr_TonyXia
59 of 💯. That's I rated our season. Only results matters. We need RESULT next season. #UTV

Followed by:

@Dr_TonyXia
 May 8
More Dr. Tony Xia Retweeted Dr. Tony Xia
In 💯 rating system, 60 is the grade for 'pass'.  We are still at the crossroads point.

So we failed in his eyes, that's all the evidence you need that Bruce didn't achieve what was hoped of him.  The reasons for that are why he didn't get sacked in the summer but it doesn't change the fact that he under-performed.  I don't think promotion was ever likely but we should've been much closer to the playoffs.  Looking at the table I think we should've been looking to finish with Derby and Norwich, still a way short of the playoffs but quite clearly a level above where we ended up.

Paul_e I doff my hat! Superb post!

Let’s hope this stops this silly Bruce was our saviors nonsense.