Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[brontebilly]

I'd rather have Bruce than Moyes.

I wasn't too sure but reading Moyes post match comments tonight, I have to agree. Both may be old farts but give me Bruce every day of the week when it comes to man-management.

I'm not sure it's even close.  Moyes is on a downhill trajectory the likes of which are very rarely seen

True but Moyes peak trajectory at Everton was at a level that Bruce will never reach.

[Canadian Villa]

One thing concerned me at the beginning of the season was the amount of possession and chances we would have. I woud see games with less than 40% possession. I know that it's not the be all and end all, however it's an indication that we couldn't get the ball from them, or we were looking for long ball (and other things before smart arses try to point out!). But now I see that we are more than equal in those stats. Am I right in my observations? and has anything changed in our play these last 5-6 games?

[KevinGage]

We look a bit more confident now (but not actually, confident, if that makes sense).

Davis coming in has given our attack a real focus point, and I think our attacking midfielders have thrived and are more willing to take chances bombing forward, knowing the ball will stick when it goes up there.

Don't think any Bruce side will be a possession side, but we have a bit more attacking intent and can now (usually) create more than 1/2 solid chances in a game. And aren't reliant on a piece of Kodjia brilliance out of nowhere. So the possession stats have improved, but we're unlikely to see a 60/40 (or Fulham-style 70/30) split in our favour. Which is fine, as there is more than one way to skin a cat. But if you are continually struggling to get 30/40 per cent possession even at home, you probably won't win enough games to make a serious dart for promotion.

[Risso]

I'd rather have Bruce than Moyes.

I wasn't too sure but reading Moyes post match comments tonight, I have to agree. Both may be old farts but give me Bruce every day of the week when it comes to man-management.

I'm not sure it's even close.  Moyes is on a downhill trajectory the likes of which are very rarely seen

True but Moyes peak trajectory at Everton was at a level that Bruce will never reach.

Bruce did pretty well with Wigan for a while.  Got them up to 9th didn't he?

[SoccerHQ]

Yeah it was quite a nice side to watch. Season Zaki was scoring loads and you had the likes of Palacios and Valencia in midfield.

They did a Pulis I think. Got to 40 points around February and barely won another game for last three months.

[ChicagoLion]

I think Moyes has become one of those people that can’t help being dull and negative.
It’s hard to think of a less inspiring person to be in a position where motivatin is really important.
I am pretty sure he did not use to be like this, but his recent history of failure seems to have affected him badly.

[stuart445]

I'm no Bruce adherent and tend to think of our successes as more a case of how much quality we have rather than tactical brilliance, but he's clearly doing more right this season than last. If we're within striking distance of automatic promotion after Terry and Kodjia are back you might just have to admit he's doing the job well.

Oh dear another when we win it's not down to Bruce but when we lose its all Bruce's fault.

Sure, if you choose to read it that way.  Or last season wasn't good enough, this season is better but still not quite where we want to be but he'll deserve praise if we kick on from here.

You seem to find this really difficult to understand but where we are now is pretty much the minimum acceptable, that's not changed by one win or defeat.  At this moment he's turned around a bad start and got us keeping pace with the leaders, for which he deserves credit, but untilwe start closing that gap we're still a couple of poor performances from dropping below expectations.

There's plenty of positives, he's getting goals from midfield (which were missing last season), he found a way to come back from behind, which has been our biggest weakness since he arrived and he's stopped a defeat from turning into a bad run (again something he struggled to do last year).  all of those mean that no one is seriously talking about replacing him right now but it doesn't stop people from being concerned that we're still too inconsistent and the Sheff Weds style performances still seem to happen too often, Cardiff, Reading, Boro, Wolves, Brentford and that one means that over a third of the games we've played have been poor.  Yes we've played much better in some of the others (again, there's probably been 5-6 genuine good performances) but we really need to put the truly terrible performances to bed now.

When we came down we was a badly damaged club and it was unlikely that the 6 years of neglect was going to be turned around to get us an instant return to the premier league.

When you throw in starting last season with the wrong manager made promotion last season pretty much impossible regardless of who the manager was.

All of which misses the point that we didn't change from RDM to Bruce to avoid relegation or to secure midtable, we did it because he has promotions under his belt and we really wanted that last season.  However unlikely it might have been that was the plan.  There were mitigating factors but there is no way bottom half was an acceptable placing last season, if he'd gone at the end of the season he really wouldn't have had many excuses.  Right now it's starting to look like sticking with him might turn out to be a good decision but he really hasn't got a lot of wiggle room in that, which is why, as I say, we need to kick on now.  The explanations are all used up now and we need to make a proper push for promotion from here.

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

[brontebilly]

I'd rather have Bruce than Moyes.

I wasn't too sure but reading Moyes post match comments tonight, I have to agree. Both may be old farts but give me Bruce every day of the week when it comes to man-management.

I'm not sure it's even close.  Moyes is on a downhill trajectory the likes of which are very rarely seen

True but Moyes peak trajectory at Everton was at a level that Bruce will never reach.

Bruce did pretty well with Wigan for a while.  Got them up to 9th didn't he?

Bruce did well at Wigan alright and to be fair Blues and Hull. But expectations in those clubs were minimal really with each season in the top division a bonus.

Moyes turned around a big club without a significant benefactor. In the first five seasons under Lerner, Everton under Moyes finished behind us once. With a fraction of the resources that MON and Houllier had.

He made some dreadful mistakes at United but the core of Fergie's team declined quickly. Vidic, Ferdinand, Rooney and Van Persie come to mind. United's fans were never going to accept Fellaini, crazy signing. The job was too much but West Ham seems a really poor fit and it's his last chance.

[paul_e]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Not seen this mentioned anywhere?

I am in Manchester and everyone is discussing it

https://sports.yahoo.com/beckham-reportedly-wants-steve-bruce-125323364.html

Can we have a whip round for the fare?

Bruce would soon get found out in the MLS. He wouldn't last the season. Crowds expect to be entertained.

[ChicagoLion]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

Also RDM had a summer and a significant investment in the team, Sunderland have done what since Moyes left?
I don’t think the situations are comparable.

[chrisw1]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

Also RDM had a summer and a significant investment in the team, Sunderland have done what since Moyes left?
I don’t think the situations are comparable.

They are absolutely comparable.  We'd had what, 5 or 6 managers who could not arrest out slide.  The wrong appointment when RDM was sacked and we could certainly have been where Sunderland are now.  I think this is the single thing that most people who are anti Bruce forget.  We would all have loved a Koeman or a Wagner, but it was an incredibly risky time for the club I genuinely think we were on a knife edge.  Whatever happens in the next few months Bruce has go the club back on an even keel and for that he deserves credit.

[Clampy]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

Also RDM had a summer and a significant investment in the team, Sunderland have done what since Moyes left?
I don’t think the situations are comparable.

They are absolutely comparable.  We'd had what, 5 or 6 managers who could not arrest out slide.  The wrong appointment when RDM was sacked and we could certainly have been where Sunderland are now.  I think this is the single thing that most people who are anti Bruce forget.  We would all have loved a Koeman or a Wagner, but it was an incredibly risky time for the club I genuinely think we were on a knife edge.  Whatever happens in the next few months Bruce has go the club back on an even keel and for that he deserves credit.

Which is why after RDM went, I felt we needed some stability. Rather than boot Bruce out for door for finishing where we did last season, I felt giving him a pre-season to mould his squad and letting the whole upheaval of the last few years settle down was the right thing to do.

[paul_e]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

Also RDM had a summer and a significant investment in the team, Sunderland have done what since Moyes left?
I don’t think the situations are comparable.

They are absolutely comparable.  We'd had what, 5 or 6 managers who could not arrest out slide.  The wrong appointment when RDM was sacked and we could certainly have been where Sunderland are now.  I think this is the single thing that most people who are anti Bruce forget.  We would all have loved a Koeman or a Wagner, but it was an incredibly risky time for the club I genuinely think we were on a knife edge.  Whatever happens in the next few months Bruce has go the club back on an even keel and for that he deserves credit.

No one is forgetting anything, but you, and a few others, seem to now want to suggest that last season was always going to be a relegation battle and Bruce is the ONLY manager who could've saved us, which is quite clearly utter bullshit.  When he arrived no one was talking about just reaching safety and being happy with a bottom half finish and you don't get to rewrite history so you can suggest that it was some sort of achievement that we should be thankful for.  We were still talking about a push for the playoffs until we had a shit run that covered the January window and it was towards the end of that where we started to think of just surviving.  Bruce underachieved last season, it really is that simple, I really don't give a shit if other managers could've done worse because we have no way of knowing.  Koeman could've come in and won 10-12 in a row and got us promoted just as easily as he could've come in and not won a game for 3 months, assuming the latter and then thanking Bruce for being better than it is a really shitty way to judge a manager.

[chrisw1]

And you are missing the point that when Bruce came in we were on the same trajectory as Sunderland

No, I'm really not, I'm quite aware of where we were in the table, but you feel free to twist things round so you can accuse people of being too quick to judge the manager and not giving him a fair chance.  That said if we had to pick an expert on rushing to form an opinion you're right near the top of the list.

Also RDM had a summer and a significant investment in the team, Sunderland have done what since Moyes left?
I don’t think the situations are comparable.

They are absolutely comparable.  We'd had what, 5 or 6 managers who could not arrest out slide.  The wrong appointment when RDM was sacked and we could certainly have been where Sunderland are now.  I think this is the single thing that most people who are anti Bruce forget.  We would all have loved a Koeman or a Wagner, but it was an incredibly risky time for the club I genuinely think we were on a knife edge.  Whatever happens in the next few months Bruce has go the club back on an even keel and for that he deserves credit.

No one is forgetting anything, but you, and a few others, seem to now want to suggest that last season was always going to be a relegation battle and Bruce is the ONLY manager who could've saved us, which is quite clearly utter bullshit.  When he arrived no one was talking about just reaching safety and being happy with a bottom half finish and you don't get to rewrite history so you can suggest that it was some sort of achievement that we should be thankful for.  We were still talking about a push for the playoffs until we had a shit run that covered the January window and it was towards the end of that where we started to think of just surviving.  Bruce underachieved last season, it really is that simple, I really don't give a shit if other managers could've done worse because we have no way of knowing.  Koeman could've come in and won 10-12 in a row and got us promoted just as easily as he could've come in and not won a game for 3 months, assuming the latter and then thanking Bruce for being better than it is a really shitty way to judge a manager.

I am suggesting no such thing.  Of course the hope was that he would get us into the play offs.  The point you continually refuse to acknowledge is that Bruce was pretty much as risk free as you could get.  Following the failures of McLeish, Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, Black & Di Matteo and not forgetting contributions from experienced assistants - the likes of Keane, Wilkins & Clark, stabilising a club that many described as a poisoned chalice is no small feat.  Yeah, Koeman might have been able to come in part of the way through the season and do something 6 other managers had failed to do but he may well not.  (if for one fantasy moment we actually believe he may have taken the job).  On the other hand, Bruce has done it.  Saying a manager is only successful if promotion is achieved in 2/3's of a season without any acknowledgement of what has transpired in the previous 6 years is a really shitty way to judge a manager.