?% Villa (is that a thing, that % business?) Homophobia in Football

[itbrvilla]

Transplanted from the Brighton post match thread:

6 hours to get to the match from Birmingham. Hey ho.

Villa deserved to win.

2 1/4 hours to get back home.

Favourite chant.

We can see you,
We can see you,
Holding hands,
Holding hands.

The away Villa fans are fantastic. I salute all of you.

There may be other clubs that have better away support than the Villa.

But not many.

 

Did you just celebrate a homophobic chant?
Did we really sing that???
I'll let others say what I'm thinking.

A man at the front had an unpleasant chant suggesting where an item that could be purchased at Ann Summers could be placed. In fairness he did stop when someone politely remonstrated with him. Homophobia hasn't gone away.

That sounded quite an isolated incident, and respect to the fact that that it got challenged.
I think my concern is what seemed by all accounts such a positive night for the club could be tainted by the fact that yes homophobia hadn't just not gone away, but was expressed, by Villa fans. I think I have an unrealistic idea that, well as we say it on here sometimes 'we are better than that'.

I'll copy this whole post to the seperate homophobia thread to leave this one to be about the football, but just to explain I felt sad/concerned that maybe that'd it had been more prevalent?

And then found it bizarre to read someone writing about enjoying it. I guess that's the bit that shocked me.

Replies to that other thread maybe?

It was interesting to here Matt Lucas say that he liked that chant and found it rather witty, or something to that effect not so long ago.

[Risso]

Chants like the above are why football is still so far behind the times.  There are still enough idiots who will cease on anything they see as a 'weakness' and make up a song about it.

[Mister E]

Am I right in thinking that our very own Thomas Hitzlsberger came out at the end of his career; not very long ago. It says something about the 'industry' that he waited until he was out to out himself.

[SoccerHQ]

I think Brighton regularly have away fans sing that at them.

I think it's more humorous than homophobic but I could be wrong on that...

On the gay player.....if Hitz had come out as gay while he played for us I couldn't believe he wouldn't have got massive support from all at the ground (given he was a very popular player for us).

But it's when you go to away grounds you worry given the partisan atmospheres so I can understand why players would wait until they retire and then come out.

[SoccerHQ]

Lots of Villa songs, some not very nice ones about the neighbours, one usually reserved for the other Bitter neighbours and then one mocking their part timers for only  owing to see us.

Why?

Brighton regularly sell out so we should've stuck to the holding hands song!

[purpletrousers]

Aware there will be different takes and thresholds around this, one man's humour is another's prejudicial abuse, but I think in the context of this whole thread, and some not understanding why sadly a player still might not come out, this (our) opposition fan response is exactly that.

I think context and intention is relevant in humour. I do buy the idea that intention might be no more than very gentle teasing/humour and get the Lucas response (can't remember if he's into footy to have potentially experienced it as a crowd/big response). I'm also aware my threshold for what I will and won't sing is different to others, but it's the nature of majority influence that what starts off light easily escalates from beyond what is intended by some, and permits worse. I've challenged racist chanting before and decided a year or two back I'd hope to do the same in this area. Glad to hear some challenging went on Friday, this is where change has to happen?

Still curious how much of it there was, it seems it wasn't as bad as I'd feared.

A bit of googling and an Independent report lists in 2013 season 70% of clubs singing what are perceived at least by some as homophobic chants at Brighton, and a Brighton blog reviews that and goes on to link to a description via the Brighton Supporters club of the away leg of their play off at Hillsborough this year. Pretty scary to read of 70+ yr old woman getting punched etc and other assault, equally/more shocking to read of an unbelievable homophobic question asked by South Yorkshire Police in response.

[itbrvilla]

Aware there will be different takes and thresholds around this, one man's humour is another's prejudicial abuse, but I think in the context of this whole thread, and some not understanding why sadly a player still might not come out, this (our) opposition fan response is exactly that.

I think context and intention is relevant in humour. I do buy the idea that intention might be no more than very gentle teasing/humour and get the Lucas response (can't remember if he's into footy to have potentially experienced it as a crowd/big response). I'm also aware my threshold for what I will and won't sing is different to others, but it's the nature of majority influence that what starts off light easily escalates from beyond what is intended by some, and permits worse. I've challenged racist chanting before and decided a year or two back I'd hope to do the same in this area. Glad to hear some challenging went on Friday, this is where change has to happen?

Still curious how much of it there was, it seems it wasn't as bad as I'd feared.

A bit of googling and an Independent report lists in 2013 season 70% of clubs singing what are perceived at least by some as homophobic chants at Brighton, and a Brighton blog reviews that and goes on to link to a description via the Brighton Supporters club of the away leg of their play off at Hillsborough this year. Pretty scary to read of 70+ yr old woman getting punched etc and other assault, equally/more shocking to read of an unbelievable homophobic question asked by South Yorkshire Police in response.

Good post. Regards Lucas, he's a huge Arsenal fan by all accounts. What I also have a greater issue with than a song about Holding Hands, is chants about social classes or being poor etc. Yet no body every gives a toss about that.

[purpletrousers]

Yep, take your point about other themes, as I've said I don't join in with stuff I don't like, so mainly just pro-villa and as somebody else said in the post match thread, that can mean you miss out quite a lot!
I'm fully aware that others will react against my views, accusations of sterile atmosphere, too PC etc. I grew up with terrace humour and wouldn't want to lose that.

I don't remember if  I'd ever heard of the "We can see you holding hands" chant before. I can imagine being at the match, unexpectedly hearing it, part of me smiling as I see the humour, but then part of me re-coiling at the same time. Reading it cold on here surprised me and made me feel uncomfortable. I trust that feeling and my judgement.

It is progress this chant (I don't see any need to even go there) is much milder than what we've heard in the past, and isn't seen as a problem by some of different orientations. But despite Matt Lucas' view, it simply is still is seen as a problem by some gay & straight people.

[SoccerHQ]

Just doing a bit of research and it seems a semi pro footballer called Liam Davis came out about 18 months back for Gainsborough Trinity.

Dunno whether he plays anymore for them but I note they played in Tamworth's league so be interested from Coops if there was any reaction if he played at Tamworth or was it along the lines of no-one gave a s***.

Probably as brave to come out down there as at the top level as with the low crowds you can certainly here all the comments from the terraces.

[itbrvilla]

Just doing a bit of research and it seems a semi pro footballer called Liam Davis came out about 18 months back for Gainsborough Trinity.

Dunno whether he plays anymore for them but I note they played in Tamworth's league so be interested from Coops if there was any reaction if he played at Tamworth or was it along the lines of no-one gave a s***.

Probably as brave to come out down there as at the top level as with the low crowds you can certainly here all the comments from the terraces.

Likely wasn't common knowledge i'd imagine.

[itbrvilla]

Peter Kay in homophobia outrage

[TopDeck113]

A really interesting debate. 

What I think would be noticeable in the money-obsessed world of top flight football, is the commercial opportunities that would present themselves to the first high-profile Premier League player to come out.  I would imagine that sports brands would be falling over themselves to have him in their stable, especially those who consider themselves more out-there with regard to inclusion of minorities, and his agent would be rubbing his hands at the other deals likely to present themselves. 

I'm not saying that this would be the sole reason, but I think a likely scenario would be after one gay player is seen to be reaping the commercial rewards, others will soon follow in coming out.

[frank black]

I didn't hear anything but then I'm not in the North stand lower which I assume this came from. Hope they get life bans if proven.

Article....Villa ParkImage copyrightGOOGLE
Image caption
Police say they are investigating after the chants were reported by stewards
A football fan says she was reduced to tears after being subjected to homophobic abuse at a match at Villa Park.
Middlesbrough fan Carol Smith said a handful of fans chanted at her for half an hour as she watched her side play Aston Villa with her wife Stacey on Tuesday.
West Midlands Police is investigating, but said no arrests have been made.
The force said: "Some people were spoken to and their details taken."
Mrs Smith, 35, from Birmingham, said she was sat in the away stand next to the home fans in the North Stand when "they [the home fans] just started picking on me".
'Heartbreaking'
"I laughed it off first time and the second time, but it turned out to be for 30 minutes continuous that they kept singing it so I just got a bit upset."
She said the treatment had put her off attending future matches.
"It took away the win, I came out of there and felt like we'd been battered 10-nil, I was really deflated," she added.
"It's just so heartbreaking to hear it."
Middlesbrough won the Carabao Cup third round match 2-0.
The BBC has contacted Aston Villa for comment.

[mr underhill]

sounds like a storm in a D cup to me - football fans baiting rival fans is par for the course.

[Ian.]

There's a difference between taking the piss out a football team and singing personal abuse to one lady. Not on.