Steve Bruce - officially confirmed (as Sheffield Wednesday boss)

[chrisw1]

The guy at Hull is a good example of casting the net a little wider and landing someone who looks pretty clued up whilst not on the usual suspects list

What like Garde you mean?  Because that's exactly the type of gamble that would be.  And if we get something like that wrong we could be relegated again before you know it.

[LukeJames]

Experience is over rated, we've currently gone for the manager with the most experience at achieving our goals and thats not exactly going how we'd have liked. For me whats more important is somebody who can come in and combine a modern approach with getting what the club is all about, for me Bruce gets the club but his methods are outdated.

He got promoted in May 2016 and his methods have become outdated within nine months?

To be honest I think his methods were outdated last season too, Hull stumbled across the line and fair play to them for that but the teams that missed out on promotion in place of Hull last season are the ones currently up there chasing promotion while Bruce is mid table with a torn fan base.

[chrisw1]

Experience is over rated, we've currently gone for the manager with the most experience at achieving our goals and thats not exactly going how we'd have liked. For me whats more important is somebody who can come in and combine a modern approach with getting what the club is all about, for me Bruce gets the club but his methods are outdated.

He got promoted in May 2016 and his methods have become outdated within nine months?

To be honest I think his methods were outdated last season too, Hull stumbled across the line and fair play to them for that but the teams that missed out on promotion in place of Hull last season are the ones currently up there chasing promotion while Bruce is mid table with a torn fan base.

Does it not occur to you that if they were chasing promotion last year they had a massive head start on us.  Bruce came into what is widely considered a dysfunctional club with a disastrous team.  It's hardly a comparison with teams who were flying in the division last season.  He has just started to put his stamp on the team, the next few months are the time to judge him not 2 games post transfer window.

[dave.woodhall]

I'm trying to work out how not getting promoted is a bigger success and proves you're a better manager than getting promoted.

[LukeJames]

I'm trying to work out how not getting promoted is a bigger success and proves you're a better manager than getting promoted.

Well I clearly didn't say that. If you have seen anything in our matches that make you believe that Bruce is the man to get us out of this division then fair play because I haven't seen a single thing.

[paul_e]

Rowett would be a big no from me, he's not what we need at all.

I think he'd do a good job. Genuinely interested to know what you think the problem with him would be?

He's got no profile outside the championship and we'd be a huge step up.  As I said, if we were to replace Bruce it needs to be with someone too good for where we are rather than with someone who has done ok at this level.  Gambling on an up and coming manager is fine if the club is stable and has a solid foundation for that guy to come into, we don't have that and I think the sheer weight of the job would be too much for someone like Rowett.

[mattjpa]

Experience is over rated, we've currently gone for the manager with the most experience at achieving our goals and thats not exactly going how we'd have liked. For me whats more important is somebody who can come in and combine a modern approach with getting what the club is all about, for me Bruce gets the club but his methods are outdated.

He got promoted in May 2016 and his methods have become outdated within nine months?

To be honest I think his methods were outdated last season too, Hull stumbled across the line and fair play to them for that but the teams that missed out on promotion in place of Hull last season are the ones currently up there chasing promotion while Bruce is mid table with a torn fan base.

Does it not occur to you that if they were chasing promotion last year they had a massive head start on us.  Bruce came into what is widely considered a dysfunctional club with a disastrous team.  It's hardly a comparison with teams who were flying in the division last season.  He has just started to put his stamp on the team, the next few months are the time to judge him not 2 games post transfer window.

Unless a manager has won his last 5 games he will always have a torn fan base because there will always be a percentage of football fans that dont live in the real world. There are man city fans wanting pep out, united fans who wanted mourinho out 5 games ago, baggies fans who want pulis sacked. West ham fans wanted allardyce sacked because he didnt get the west ham way....the list goes on. Quite how you have come to the conclusion thtat his methods are outdated I have no idea - He has so far experimented with 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 5-3-2 and 3-5-2. he has hired fitness coaches as well as young and upcoming first team coaches like clemence and calderwood.

[dave.woodhall]

I'm trying to work out how not getting promoted is a bigger success and proves you're a better manager than getting promoted.

Well I clearly didn't say that. If you have seen anything in our matches that make you believe that Bruce is the man to get us out of this division then fair play because I haven't seen a single thing.

What did you say then? So far I've seen a couple of good months and a couple of bad. It's not as good as I'd hoped but someone with his track record of success deserves time to put things right.

[LukeJames]

Experience is over rated, we've currently gone for the manager with the most experience at achieving our goals and thats not exactly going how we'd have liked. For me whats more important is somebody who can come in and combine a modern approach with getting what the club is all about, for me Bruce gets the club but his methods are outdated.

He got promoted in May 2016 and his methods have become outdated within nine months?

To be honest I think his methods were outdated last season too, Hull stumbled across the line and fair play to them for that but the teams that missed out on promotion in place of Hull last season are the ones currently up there chasing promotion while Bruce is mid table with a torn fan base.

Does it not occur to you that if they were chasing promotion last year they had a massive head start on us.  Bruce came into what is widely considered a dysfunctional club with a disastrous team.  It's hardly a comparison with teams who were flying in the division last season.  He has just started to put his stamp on the team, the next few months are the time to judge him not 2 games post transfer window.

Unless a manager has won his last 5 games he will always have a torn fan base because there will always be a percentage of football fans that dont live in the real world. There are man city fans wanting pep out, united fans who wanted mourinho out 5 games ago, baggies fans who want pulis sacked. West ham fans wanted allardyce sacked because he didnt get the west ham way....the list goes on. Quite how you have come to the conclusion thtat his methods are outdated I have no idea - He has so far experimented with 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 5-3-2 and 3-5-2. he has hired fitness coaches as well as young and upcoming first team coaches like clemence and calderwood.

You have answered your own question there, why is an experienced manager with 4 promotions experimenting with 4 different formations in 16 matches if his methods are not outdated? He's throwing formations together in the hope that one of them clicks rather than putting any thought into picking a formation that will click.

[LukeJames]

I'm trying to work out how not getting promoted is a bigger success and proves you're a better manager than getting promoted.

Well I clearly didn't say that. If you have seen anything in our matches that make you believe that Bruce is the man to get us out of this division then fair play because I haven't seen a single thing.

What did you say then? So far I've seen a couple of good months and a couple of bad. It's not as good as I'd hoped but someone with his track record of success deserves time to put things right.

Couple of good months? Come off it! I'd agree that any manager needs time but we need to see signs that we are progressing and all i'm seeing is that we are stagnating, Unfortunaty I think we'll see the Bruce experiment as a wasted 6/12/18 months.

[Can Gana Be Bettered!?!?]

"Even if you're the best player in the world and you're being attacked by three players, you lose the ball,": Ralf Rangnick, manager of 2nd place RB Leipzig in the Bundesliga.

I share his thoughts. So why don't we do it against Championship opposition? If you press the opposition, like teams do to us, then you panic and lose the ball. Brentford did exactly that to us, whilst we gave them all the time in the world.

(There's an article on the rise of "Germany's most hated club" on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38802113 - wasn't here talk one time of Red Bull being interested in us? May be wrong, or just BS)

It is a system that relies on everyone knowing their roles, working as a unit, trusting each other and requires sustained coaching to achieve. You cannot just impose it on a new midfield after a few sessions of working together.

Maybe. But is it that hard to tell someone to close another player down quickly?

no but the whole team needs to do it as a group, if players do it in isolation, teams will be able to pass the ball around them

So tell them all to do it. I'm talking from the front so the opposition don't have time to pass it out. It really isn't that hard.

[paul_e]

Rowett would be a big no from me, he's not what we need at all.

Who is Paul?  Because the way I see it if RDM & Bruce get sacked in a single season I can't see many credible candidates likely to be kicking our door down.

We've tried hungry successful British - Lambert, refreshing foreign with ideas - Garde, Tub-thumping young British - Sherwood, fairly experienced foreign - RDM with no success.

So who would follow?  Dean Smith, Rowett etc - not enough experience.  A foreign Wagner type?  Again not much experience and the Garde experiment failed - would we go down that route again?

I honestly think if someone like Bruce can't steady the ship people will start to see us an an unmanageable basket case.

The ideal scenario has to be that Bruce gets us back on track and promoted and if at that point he isn't the right fit at least the next candidate will be working with a functional team.  I just can't see how dropping another name into the clusterfuck we are right now is going to do anything other than a further two steps backwards.

With that said, I agree if there isn't considerable improvement by the summer we should look again.  But he should be at least allowed that time to work with his new buys and see if he can find a winning formula. 

We've tried 'meat and potatoes British' with McLeish and that failed but we're trying it again with Bruce so just because a 'type' of manager doesn't work you don't decide that all managers like that are a waste of space, it's just not that simple.  As I've said I want someone who has worked at a club with big expectations and done a good job.  Of the last 5 managers the only one who has been at a club where he was expected to win things was Sherwood and that was 6months and they sacked him at the first real opportunity.  Someone who's managed a club like Ajax or Benfica where they're expected to achieve big things but aren't at one of the clubs that will always be in the champions league quarter finals, etc.  I know that's ridiculously ambitious but that's the point, if Xia is everything he seems to be and their 10 year plan is what we've been led to believe then we need to act like a champions league club in the making, and that means setting our sights far higher than someone who did an ok job at the club a few miles down the road.


Once again though, I'd rather see Bruce sort his shit out and deliver what I expected him too so when we go for that manager we're a midtable premier league team, but I don't think we can afford to wait too long to get there if Bruce isn't delivering.  Lots of people have stated that this season was a bust before Bruce arrived because of the start we had under RDM and they may well be right, the issue is Bruce has to show that he can deliver much more than RDM did in the first 2months of next season or we'll be staring down the barrel of a 3rd season in this league.  That's why there need to be very clear signs that Bruce knows how to fix this in the next couple of months, if they're not visible then keeping him is a gamble we just can't afford to lose.

[chrisw1]

Paul - I agree with your second paragraph. 

[The Edge]

"Even if you're the best player in the world and you're being attacked by three players, you lose the ball,": Ralf Rangnick, manager of 2nd place RB Leipzig in the Bundesliga.

I share his thoughts. So why don't we do it against Championship opposition? If you press the opposition, like teams do to us, then you panic and lose the ball. Brentford did exactly that to us, whilst we gave them all the time in the world.

(There's an article on the rise of "Germany's most hated club" on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38802113 - wasn't here talk one time of Red Bull being interested in us? May be wrong, or just BS)

It is a system that relies on everyone knowing their roles, working as a unit, trusting each other and requires sustained coaching to achieve. You cannot just impose it on a new midfield after a few sessions of working together.

Indeed it is, it's also a system that you can train poor quality players to perform to a decent level.  If Bruce had wanted to get us playing that way he had enough time before the window opened to get the squad he had working that way.  If you sign players and they join a squad all setup to play a certain way and where everyone knows their role it's much easier to find your own place and get up to speed.  That's the problem Villa have had for years, if we want to change style our managers think with the cheque book to buy a solution rather than put in the work in training to make their own.  Bruce is no different to the rest of the useless fuckers in that regard.

All the talk of sacking him meaning more upheaval is rubbish as well.  If it happens the interview should go as "This squad should be good enough to get out of this division so we'll let you trade 3-4 in and out but if you take the job you need to work with what you have in the main".

When you hear Steve Bruce wittering something unconvincing about giving 5-3-2 a go it's hard to have confidence that he has a set way he wants this team to play. Or that he has bought players with a defined style of play in mind.  Looks like he's been playing Championship Top Trumps and buying players just for their stats rather than where they'll fit in and play as a unit.

Absolutely agree with that last line, when McLeish signed Nzogbia it felt like it was because he'd wanted him at Blues and when he had the extra credibility he went back to get him.  This time round Bruce has said similar about Hogan and I get the feeling the Lansbury deal is down to him wanting him at Hull and going back for him now.  There's some sense in signing players you like but it doesn't feel like Bruce has really thought about why he needs them or how they fit in.

I disagree. Steve Bruce had always bought players that he thinks will fit in. Look at Lily Savage at SHA. He knew that a nasty little bastard who riles up the opposition would be what they needed and he was right. So what if he goes back to players he's tried to sign previously? That's obviously because he rates them. I'm prepared to give him chance because I think he can get us back to the Prem.  After that who knows?

ha ha, is that supposed to be a post of support for Steve Bruce

Your point is?

[The Edge]

Experience is over rated, we've currently gone for the manager with the most experience at achieving our goals and thats not exactly going how we'd have liked. For me whats more important is somebody who can come in and combine a modern approach with getting what the club is all about, for me Bruce gets the club but his methods are outdated.

He got promoted in May 2016 and his methods have become outdated within nine months?

Nailed him lol.