Steve Bruce - officially confirmed (as Sheffield Wednesday boss)

[andyh]

I very much agree that all of our failings, and they are many, can't be laid at Gabby's door.  However, like it or not he has come to embody everything wrong on the pitch and in the dressing room.  He is the manager breaker.  Stanley Collymore was the same. Other players see what he is getting away with week after week and become demoralised.  Young players probably on little more than £500 a week see him on £55,000 a week being given endless chances to redeem himself while they can't even get on the bench.  They are bound to get pissed off about it.  It is not Gabriel Agbonlahor individually that is the problem.  It is what he has come to represent.  The old "go again" order.

No he isn't Brian.  He's just a player well past his best and probably without enough motivation to make a valid contribution.  There are many reasons we have been poor this season, but given Gabby was marginalised for the first part and has played a small role in the second, continuing to blame him for all our failings is just ridiculous.

Chrisw1 - your unflinching support for EVERY player that comes under fire on here is admiral.

[dave shelley]

Hello sailor.

[chrisw1]

I very much agree that all of our failings, and they are many, can't be laid at Gabby's door.  However, like it or not he has come to embody everything wrong on the pitch and in the dressing room.  He is the manager breaker.  Stanley Collymore was the same. Other players see what he is getting away with week after week and become demoralised.  Young players probably on little more than £500 a week see him on £55,000 a week being given endless chances to redeem himself while they can't even get on the bench.  They are bound to get pissed off about it.  It is not Gabriel Agbonlahor individually that is the problem.  It is what he has come to represent.  The old "go again" order.

No he isn't Brian.  He's just a player well past his best and probably without enough motivation to make a valid contribution.  There are many reasons we have been poor this season, but given Gabby was marginalised for the first part and has played a small role in the second, continuing to blame him for all our failings is just ridiculous.

Chrisw1 - your unflinching support for EVERY player that comes under fire on here is admiral.

Read my posts.  I've said many times he is fat and shit.  I'm just sick of the hyperbole, melodrama and blame culture on here.  There are many reasons we are poor, but as I've said before it isn't down to just Gabby, an aura around the club, some deep rooted poison or a gypsie fucking curse.  It's because a shit owner pulled the plug on finances and hired a series of inadequate managers who bought players who just weren't good enough.

There is no mystery behind it and I'm sick of people banging on about this sort of stuff.  We're shit because we have shit players who haven't been drilled well enough.  Gabby has played his part in this mire, but more last season than this.  Hopefully Bruce will sort it out, but it will take time and at least two transfer windows.

[pbavfckuwait]

Chrisw, you are partly right that all our ails do not fall at the feet of Gobeshiteahor, but the statement that they are all shit players I do not agree with, or should not be the case at this level, look at a good few of them

Hutton = has played at a higher level then this for a long time.
Amavi = has played at a better level than this in France
Baker = played at this level last year to a reasonable standard
Chester = played at this level and above
Elphick = played at this level and got promotion
Jedi = this level and higher
Tish = untried over a long period at this level
Bacunna = played at a higher level but how well is up to opinion
Adohma = played at this level with a team that won promotion
Kodj = played at this level and playing at this level now very well
McCormack = played at this level and scored for fun
Ayew = is well up to this standard if he can be arsed
Greilish = played at a higher level over a period of time, not long but long enough
Gardner = played at this level and was a regular starter for Forest
Westwood = Enough said
Gabby = Enough said

We have unknowns , Bunn, Green, RHM , Lydon, the other lad his name escapes me.
16 players identified as having played at this level or above, some with relative success, but they come through the doors at Bodymoor Heath and they all apart from maybe 3 on that list turn to shite, as Brian highlights some attitudes maybe shit, but they are not all shit players and no one can convince me they can not be coached/ drilled better to a level that allows a style of play and a level of consistence performance, that is way beyond where we are now, there are clubs in this league that would love a squad like that, the mongrels down the road to name one bunch.

[chrisw1]

I mostly agree.  But we are missing a few key pieces of the jigsaw - primarily a in midfield.  It's down to this, together with coaching and tactics.  My general point is however poor Gabby is, blaming it all on him is nonsensical

[Jimbo]

Who has blamed everything on Gabby? What's nonsensical is the assertion that anybody is doing that. Get some perspective, man.

[chrisw1]

Have you read your own posts Jimbo?  That's what I'm talking about.

[Jimbo]

Have you, chrisw1? I'm not blaming the last five plus years of abject failure on him, but he is the embodiment of a culture at a club that was coasting in a sea of complacency for too long. I tend to agree with Brian, that one rotten tooth can have an adverse effect on all the others. We've had several.

No gypsy curses (talk about melodrama), just a rotten culture that needs cleaning up, which takes time. There must be some reason why we look second best against so many second-tier clubs, and it isn't because all our players (or manager) are shit, though some are (see Westwood, A.).

[oldhill_avfc]

Chrisw, you are partly right that all our ails do not fall at the feet of Gobeshiteahor, but the statement that they are all shit players I do not agree with, or should not be the case at this level, look at a good few of them

Hutton = has played at a higher level then this for a long time.
Amavi = has played at a better level than this in France
Baker = played at this level last year to a reasonable standard
Chester = played at this level and above
Elphick = played at this level and got promotion
Jedi = this level and higher
Tish = untried over a long period at this level
Bacunna = played at a higher level but how well is up to opinion
Adohma = played at this level with a team that won promotion
Kodj = played at this level and playing at this level now very well
McCormack = played at this level and scored for fun
Ayew = is well up to this standard if he can be arsed
Greilish = played at a higher level over a period of time, not long but long enough
Gardner = played at this level and was a regular starter for Forest
Westwood = Enough said
Gabby = Enough said

We have unknowns , Bunn, Green, RHM , Lydon, the other lad his name escapes me.
16 players identified as having played at this level or above, some with relative success, but they come through the doors at Bodymoor Heath and they all apart from maybe 3 on that list turn to shite, as Brian highlights some attitudes maybe shit, but they are not all shit players and no one can convince me they can not be coached/ drilled better to a level that allows a style of play and a level of consistence performance, that is way beyond where we are now, there are clubs in this league that would love a squad like that, the mongrels down the road to name one bunch.

There's some good points on both sides of this argument.

I understand the line that the culture may have rotten under previous regimes, but there's been wholesale changes since then with only a couple of players still around, along with the academy training staff and the tea lady at BMH.   realistically how much influence can they have?

So, surely therefore it's all about the quality and mix of players and then how they're integrated into a whole.

When you look a the list of players above there are a couple of themes;

The players that have played at a higher level, struggled at that higher level either due to ability or advancing age.  They're hardly going to step up a a level now and sparkle.

The 'done a job at this level' lot were thrown together by a manager who was acting like a kid in a sweet shop and a new owner who was desperate to make a good impression, both here and and wherever else he's trying to leverage his asset that is AVFC.

It must like a nightmare to Bruce trying to work out how to get anything out of such a dysfunctional group.  This is backed up by all the formations people post on here.  Pretty much all have been tried and none work.

From the outside it looks like a Ferrari, when you get close up it's a kit car with a dodgy Rover engine.

[Hookeysmith]

Bruce has had 14 games

I agree the players in the main are pretty poor individually and collectively even worse.
Bruce is not a miracle worker - but  after 14 games I would expect to see

1/ Players fitness better than it was - this is not evident
2/ A level of consistency in the formation and tactics - it is different every game
3/ The defensive attitude of the team - this has to be down to manager
4/ The lack of ability to pass 10 yards to each other
5/ The agreement to sell before any likely recruits on the horizon

He has to take responsibility

[Clampy]

Bruce has had 14 games

I agree the players in the main are pretty poor individually and collectively even worse.
Bruce is not a miracle worker - but  after 14 games I would expect to see

1/ Players fitness better than it was - this is not evident
2/ A level of consistency in the formation and tactics - it is different every game
3/ The defensive attitude of the team - this has to be down to manager
4/ The lack of ability to pass 10 yards to each other
5/ The agreement to sell before any likely recruits on the horizon

He has to take responsibility

14 games is not a lot and we have seen an overall improvement in results, even if some of the performances have not been there.

[oldhill_avfc]

Bruce has had 14 games

I agree the players in the main are pretty poor individually and collectively even worse.
Bruce is not a miracle worker - but  after 14 games I would expect to see

1/ Players fitness better than it was - this is not evident
2/ A level of consistency in the formation and tactics - it is different every game
3/ The defensive attitude of the team - this has to be down to manager
4/ The lack of ability to pass 10 yards to each other
5/ The agreement to sell before any likely recruits on the horizon

He has to take responsibility

1/ Are the players unfit? If so who?
2/ He's chopped around trying find something/anything that works - none will when the midfield is so piss poor, and the forward options dysfunctional
3/ I thought you wanted a consistency of approach - SB's method of getting a result is to stop the opposition scoring - because he knows we ain't ever going to be banging them in at the other end
4/ See (2) - midfield is poor and the forwards run around without realising there's anyone else on the pitch
5/ Is that right and if it is, is it SB's fault?

Look, I'm not saying that SB shouldn't be expected to make progress - he actually has made progress in terms of points per game.  But, he can't work miracles and what you're levelling at him ain't even his fault and makes no sense.

[Mister E]

I mostly agree.  But we are missing a few key pieces of the jigsaw - primarily a in midfield.  It's down to this, together with coaching and tactics.  My general point is however poor Gabby is, blaming it all on him is nonsensical

My reading of all of this is this:
Flabby has come to represent all that's been bad over the last 2-3 seasons (as has Richards). It appears - from what we know as dressing-room outsiders - that there has been a rubbish culture around the club and a stench of mediocrity and complacency combined with an absence of meaningful commitment to the club's well-being. When the Dr came in with Wyness and others, there was a sense that a cultural shift would be made and that the club would return to a place where hard work, skill and teamwork (bound together by a strong managerial ethos and effective game tactics) would prevail. This did not happen under RdM and Clark - surprisingly, really, since both appeared to have the credentials and attitude.
We now have Bruce and his team of coaches in and we are not seeing immediate returns on a more productive culture: in fact, with Flabby reinstated, it appears that we are almost regressing. In reality the regression comes because many of the Summer signings - combined with the failed players of the past (Flabby, Westie, GG, Bacuna, Bunn) - have failed to deliver.
We're back to the stage of having to overhaul the squad, whcih means that promotion is a very outside possibility this season. SB is going to have to offload the dross (Exhibit A: Rudy) before being able to bring in the players that will actually make a difference. The challenge is to hang on to those we want to keep whilst not being able to immediately rejoin the ranks of the obscenely paid in the PL.

Flabby is not the problem, merely the symptom.

[brian green]

I am not "blaming" Agbonlahor.  I said I believe he epitomises in every aspect of his shortcomings the collective failure of the core of our disfunctional players.  It is not who he is.  It is not what he does. It is what he represents.  Irresponsibility rewarded.

[oldhill_avfc]

I mostly agree.  But we are missing a few key pieces of the jigsaw - primarily a in midfield.  It's down to this, together with coaching and tactics.  My general point is however poor Gabby is, blaming it all on him is nonsensical

My reading of all of this is this:
Flabby has come to represent all that's been bad over the last 2-3 seasons (as has Richards). It appears - from what we know as dressing-room outsiders - that there has been a rubbish culture around the club and a stench of mediocrity and complacency combined with an absence of meaningful commitment to the club's well-being. When the Dr came in with Wyness and others, there was a sense that a cultural shift would be made and that the club would return to a place where hard work, skill and teamwork (bound together by a strong managerial ethos and effective game tactics) would prevail. This did not happen under RdM and Clark - surprisingly, really, since both appeared to have the credentials and attitude.
We now have Bruce and his team of coaches in and we are not seeing immediate returns on a more productive culture: in fact, with Flabby reinstated, it appears that we are almost regressing. In reality the regression comes because many of the Summer signings - combined with the failed players of the past (Flabby, Westie, GG, Bacuna, Bunn) - have failed to deliver.
We're back to the stage of having to overhaul the squad, whcih means that promotion is a very outside possibility this season. SB is going to have to offload the dross (Exhibit A: Rudy) before being able to bring in the players that will actually make a difference. The challenge is to hang on to those we want to keep whilst not being able to immediately rejoin the ranks of the obscenely paid in the PL.

Flabby is not the problem, merely the symptom.

Not a bog fan of the lack of paragraphs.

But what you say is bang on.