Derby County v Aston Villa Post-Match Thread

[ktvillan]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Surely his job is to keep things ticking over, to always be available for a pass and to keep the ball moving to get the more creative players into the game. If we had anyone better at that role then he would be replaced but at the moment I am not sure we do and it would be a waste to ask one of the more creative players to do that job.

If we are to go up, I don't think we can afford for such a limited player like Westwood to be a regular.  We need goals, assists and protection of the back four from the midfield, and he does none of those things.  When we're behind or drawing, we need people with drive and energy to get forward.  When we need to protect what we've got, we need rugged and physical players to get stuck in.  Again, he isn't capable of these things, and slipping five yard passes to people on its own is far from being good enough.  It'll be only OK if we want to finish mid table.  We've had 4 years of seeing that he isn't good enough at Premier League level, and he isn't good enough for a Championship side chasing promotion.  Ideally I'd like to see him sold if we can get another midfielder in.

I'm not convinced "keeping things ticking over and keeping the ball moving" is, or should be, a job in itself.  It sounds very much like carrying a passenger to me.  A player needs to bring more to the party than just that, especially if he can't even do that bit particularly well.   People go on about the "water carrier" role  and how every team is supposed to need one.  I may not be recalling this correctly but I thought Cantona had coined the term to have a dig at Didier Deschamps and the French hierarchy after he was left out of various French squads.  It wasn't meant to be a compliment, it was meant to criticise the preference of more limited footballers over much better players.  The "every team needs one" line was trailed out as a defence of the type of player Deschamps was.   I still don't see why you can't have a player who does that linking role but can also deliver set pieces, break up play, play some proper trough balls, get some tackles in, hit some shots on target and generally impose himself on the game.  The other day someone described Westwood as the metronome of the team, setting the tempo.  I almost laughed out loud.  That's maybe what a player in his role should be doing but in terms of influencing the game, I'm afraid our Ashley is more like a garden gnome, one set in stone forever in a pointy pose.

[mal]

Fair enough, but I disagree completely. Westwood controlled the first half. Gardner was largely a complete liability and I've got no idea what he did at Forest to get such rave reviews.

On the evidence of last 4-5 games I agree ref Gardner, the shot today is the only noteworthy thing!  Really wanted him to grab his chance but he hasn't shown.

What I would say with Westwood is that in a central three with Jedinak & Tshibola I think he might have a role to play as the link player to the forward players as he is a neat & tidy passer. 

Westwood's passing is another myth. He's a neat and tidy passer when it's an easy pass backwards or sideways, the kind of pass a scarecrow could master.

He does and did today, your memory is just being selective. He could be more daring and he doesn't play first-time enough for me which slows us down, but a progressive forward pass doesn't have to be a through ball or a brilliant diagonal out wide, and he does enough of that simple stuff where he's simply moving it to Ayew or Grealish further up the pitch. Then again, I remember Michael Carrick played the most forward passes in Europe one season (no, I'm not saying Westwood is anywhere near his level) and people were still accusing him of only making the safe side/back passes, so I guess that's just the nature of things.

I'm not sure about that. I really don't get this 'he moves the ball' stuff. He's a footballer. That's what he's a millionaire for. Yet he doesn't even do that very well.

Everything else that's required of him, he frequently fails to do - set pieces (floaty garbage), tackling (powderpuff), protecting the defence (points at something), shooting (ha ha ha ha), kicking a football properly (still waiting), etc. etc.

Passing the ball sideways to a very deep Ayew is not an incisive forward pass. And as I've said before, I think there was a reason why Ayew played so deep. It's because he can actually kick and keep possession of a football, which, as RDM would have known, is what Westwood and Gardner both struggle with. 

We're in the Championship now. Westwood looks ordinary here at best, virtually anonymous at other times. We're mid table. If we want to get out of this division, the likes of Westwood and Gardner just aren't good enough.

Westwood especially is one of the reasons we set up camp at the bottom of the Premier League for five seasons. And he's one of the reasons we're not getting the results now. I know, I know, early days and all that. But we need better, RDM knows it, and he's bought it.

No more settling for mediocre nothingness.

If only there was a pass map to show how far his forward passes went! Oh wait, there is: http://championship.squawka.com/english-football-league-championship/20-08-2016/derby-vs-avilla/matches

There's plenty of forward passes there where he's moved it into the final third.

Through four games, he's completed more passes, at a higher percentage than anyone else. If that's not keeping possession, I don't know what it is; the fact that the passing hasn't been all that penetrating relates to a completely different concept. Also, If it was so easy to move the ball as you suggest, England wouldn't be so fucking shit at it game after game, and those players are paid a sight more than Westwood are.

I've never suggested that Westwood is anything more than a so-so player with a limited set of skills, and I'd hope that Tshibola and Jedinak can establish themselves as our starting two going forward. That doesn't mean people should be so ridiculously over-the-top in assessing his contributions.

Very interesting to compare those data maps for our midfield and their midfield.  Gardner also had a good game despite the general perception that he did very little.  Try comparing our midfield's maps to Derby's.
This site also interesting:
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7
Scroll down to Championship team of the season and note who is upfront.  That's a real surprise. 
Then shuttle to team of the week and note that one team is supplying 4 players to that team.  Then have a look at Will Hughes passing map and try and work out what he's doing in it.  It might be time to reassess the value of Gardner and Westwood - I'm not saying that they are world beaters but I do think that a lot of the stick they get is unwarranted and misplaced.

[Chris Smith]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Surely his job is to keep things ticking over, to always be available for a pass and to keep the ball moving to get the more creative players into the game. If we had anyone better at that role then he would be replaced but at the moment I am not sure we do and it would be a waste to ask one of the more creative players to do that job.

If we are to go up, I don't think we can afford for such a limited player like Westwood to be a regular.  We need goals, assists and protection of the back four from the midfield, and he does none of those things.  When we're behind or drawing, we need people with drive and energy to get forward.  When we need to protect what we've got, we need rugged and physical players to get stuck in.  Again, he isn't capable of these things, and slipping five yard passes to people on its own is far from being good enough.  It'll be only OK if we want to finish mid table.  We've had 4 years of seeing that he isn't good enough at Premier League level, and he isn't good enough for a Championship side chasing promotion.  Ideally I'd like to see him sold if we can get another midfielder in.

I'm not convinced "keeping things ticking over and keeping the ball moving" is, or should be, a job in itself.  It sounds very much like carrying a passenger to me.  A player needs to bring more to the party than just that, especially if he can't even do that bit particularly well.   People go on about the "water carrier" role  and how every team is supposed to need one.  I may not be recalling this correctly but I thought Cantona had coined the term to have a dig at Didier Deschamps and the French hierarchy after he was left out of various French squads.  It wasn't meant to be a compliment, it was meant to criticise the preference of more limited footballers over much better players.  The "every team needs one" line was trailed out as a defence of the type of player Deschamps was.   I still don't see why you can't have a player who does that linking role but can also deliver set pieces, break up play, play some proper trough balls, get some tackles in, hit some shots on target and generally impose himself on the game.  The other day someone described Westwood as the metronome of the team, setting the tempo.  I almost laughed out loud.  That's maybe what a player in his role should be doing but in terms of influencing the game, I'm afraid our Ashley is more like a garden gnome, one set in stone forever in a pointy pose.

Yes, just look as the record of Deschamps to see how insightful Cantona's criticism of him was.

[Jimbo]

Ktvillan's got it. Westwood doesn't set the tempo, he reacts to it. If it's going in our favour he appears to do ok. If it isn't he evaporates like our Premier League hopes and dreams.

Westwood is a living metaphor for Randy Lerner's wishy-washy, reactive, hope-against-reason passivity. We must sweep it all away if we're to see anything resembling success at Villa.

[ChicagoLion]

We were carrying too many passengers, Kozac,Sissoko,Bacuna Gardener and Ayew.
How we can expect to progress with this lot and Richards Lescott Hutton Gabby still on the payroll

[old man villa fan]

Having watched the game yesterday and then saw the highlights of the other matches, the thing I did notice that our tempo is far slower than the other Championship teams, although highlights can be a misleading.

Part of this slow tempo is down to lack of confidence but is mainly down to the midfield.  We need players in there that when they have the ball can pass quickly or drive on with the ball and when they don't, they are always moving into better positions and almost demanding it from our own players.  When we do not have possession, we need central midfield players that are either pressing to try and win back the ball or closing down space to deny the opposition passing opportunities that may hurt us.  Also, out of possession they should be organising the players around them by demanding involvement.

In short, Westwood does not meet the above criteria to me.  People say that he is fine at this level but not in the position he is playing.  Further forward or wide may be but not in the centre where we need to dictate games.  The only problem with him playing more forward or wider, he lacks pace.  Even in the centre, he is not quick off the mark and results in a lot of his bookings.

We have played counter attacking football for so long now to try and survive.  If we are going to get out of this division, we need to be dominating games and taking it to the opposition.  Otherwise, we will fail to score the goals necessary to win enough matches.

[ciggiesnbeer]

We were carrying too many passengers, Kozac,Sissoko,Bacuna Gardener and Ayew.
How we can expect to progress with this lot and Richards Lescott Hutton Gabby still on the payroll

Honestly credit where credit is due, Bacuna and Sissoko were fine yesterday.

edit:

Oh yeah and as Monty says, Ayew? Come on now.

[Monty]

Deschamps was a canny defensive player though, a strong tackler and irritating intercepter (interceiver?). Westwood is neither of those things.

As for the idea that Ayew is a passenger...blimey.

[old man villa fan]

I thought Ayew did a lot of tracking back yesterday.  Something that he has be criticised for not doing before.  Perhaps decent coaching is starting to take effect.

[Ads]

Ayew is a menace. He's streets ahead of this League in quality.

He should have gone up top yesterday instead of Kozak.

[Toronto Villa]

Ayew is a menace. He's streets ahead of this League in quality.

He should have gone up top yesterday instead of Kozak.

We had nothing on the bench in midfield but it would have been the best option having him as the main striker even if he really isn't one. He is a very clever and technically astute player.

[olaftab]

Ah yes Ayew is perfect false number 9. Maybe he will play there when Morrison arrives?

[Monty]

I agree. I think it's good to have the muscle and size as a backup plan, but at the moment sacrificing mobility for the targetman doesn't work for me. They look like kids dancing round a maypole.

[brontebilly]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

None of which are his job. He dominated the play in the first half yesterday, enabling us to own the ball. Our play was really tidy in the opening half, from back to front, Gestede holding it up well, Grealish getting on the ball in dangerous areas. That was primarily down to Westwood, getting the ball off our defence and linking it up. Gardner was completely anonymous next to him, one shot aside. Westwood's passing was snappy, Gardner's passes were like his feet just so slow and ponderous.

Where Westwood struggles is like in the second half when Derby pushed Hughes up on him to quell his influence. His feet arent quick enough to get the ball out of tight pressure situations and if a player gets beyond him he is a passenger, like with the yellow he picked up yesterday. He is powder puff without the ball but I thought he was spiky for a welcome change early on. He went out of the game in the second half and really needs a physical presence next to him. But as a playmaker he is a decent. On the evidence of the Sheff Wed and Derby, Westwood is far from the biggest problem in the side. He was badly missed v Luton where Tshibola's lack of positional sense was woefully evident. Jedinak, Westwood and Tshibola are a decent trio all with their strengths and weaknesses.

[ChicagoLion]

Ayew is a menace. He's streets ahead of this League in quality.

He should have gone up top yesterday instead of Kozak.

Agree i thought we were better when he played there, not in the game much before though.